I've modded my Fender MIM Jazz with a Gotoh 201 (black) bridge

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y103/Ingemar/GotohBlack201.jpg

but cause the bottom plate is much ticker (3mm) than the orginal bridge bottom plate (1,5mm) and the sadle cylinders has a wider diameter on the Gotoh, I can't get as low action as I want.The lowest I can get is about 3mm gap at 12't fret.

So...

As I understand, one way to go is to route down the bridge some 1-1,5mm in the body (seems like a job for a pro.), and another, to thin (mill) the bottomplate some 1-1,5mm (this I may manage myself)

Is there some disadvantages if I remove the hight/lowering screws in the sadle cylinders and let the cylinders rest directly on the bridge bottom?Will this cause sound transfering loss?
(I understand that this will affect the individual adjustement possibilities and that the sadles can "flex sidewise")


Suggestions?

Shim the neck.

Shim the neck.

Thanks.

but I'm not sure/convinsed about this shimming thing,(isn't there some "loss of sound transferring" risk with that?) just don't really feels like an "upgrade".
(maybe I'll end up changing back to the orginal bridge, but otherwise this thin out/mill/grind down the bottomplate on the Gotoh, seems to be my choise)

I'd be surprised if the new bridge makes any difference in your sound.

If you really do not want to shim, the easiest way would be to grind 1 or 2 mm off the underside of the bridge saddles ( the cylindrical things the strings sit on)

Shimming will only make you happier. Its the fastest and easiest way for sure.

Thanks for Your advises.

Now I have to do a lot of testing/thinking

- Shim (se my reflections above)

- Remove the hight adjustment screws so that the cylindrical sadles sits rigt on the bottomplate

- Deepen the stringslots at the cylindrical sadles (ev. in a drill to get the slot deeper all way around)

- Grind down the underside of the cylindrical sadles

- Replace the Gotoh cylindrical sadles and intonation screws to the orginal (smaller but shorter ones)

- Mill/grind down the underside of the whole bridge bottom plate

- Route down the bridge in the bass body

An issue that I came to think of is the string angle, wich maybe will be to stright if I have to lower the sadles to much compared to the "stringholes" in the back of the bridge.This effect wont occure if I can get the whole bridge closer to/in to the bass body (or with shimming ;-)

And of course - Change back to the orginal bridge (allthough I have to order new black ones since I've changed to black tuners, picguard,controlplate and bridge
on my Black MIM Jazz.orginaly purcased to host my Roland V-Bass GK2B pup)

Thanks for Your advises.

Now I have to do a lot of testing/thinking

- Shim (se my reflections above)

- Remove the hight adjustment screws so that the cylindrical sadles sits rigt on the bottomplate

- Deepen the stringslots at the cylindrical sadles (ev. in a drill to get the slot deeper all way around)

- Grind down the underside of the cylindrical sadles

- Replace the Gotoh cylindrical sadles and intonation screws to the orginal (smaller but shorter ones)

- Mill/grind down the underside of the whole bridge bottom plate

- Route down the bridge in the bass body

An issue that I came to think of is the string angle, wich maybe will be to stright if I have to lower the sadles to much compared to the "stringholes" in the back of the bridge.This effect wont occure if I can get the whole bridge closer to/in to the bass body (or with shimming ;-)

And of course - Change back to the orginal bridge (allthough I have to order new black ones since I've changed to black tuners, picguard,controlplate and bridge
on my Black MIM Jazz.orginaly purcased to host my Roland V-Bass GK2B pup)


I would start with the least invasive mod before you start grinding anything or routing the body so you can put things back to original if necessary. fwiw, the badassII bridge is a direct replacement and doesn't have any issues with the saddles being too high. good luck!

I would start with the least invasive mod before you start grinding anything or routing the body so you can put things back to original if necessary. fwiw, the badassII bridge is a direct replacement and doesn't have any issues with the saddles being too high. good luck!


Actually my first choise was a black BadAssII but they weren't avaliable here in Sweden, so... eager to get along with my "mod." I went for the Gotoh 201, wich I thought was a "ready to go" replacement to :-(

Now, I think I'll begin with testing to file down the string slot on the upperside of the sadle cylinders.This seems (imo) like the least invasive mod. (in fact, some ruined sadles, or even bridge, wont ruin my budget ;-)

Wouldn't a shim be the easiest (and easiest to reverse if unhappy with the results) starting point?Yes. By a vast margin. Not only the easiest, but the most effective IME.

I had that same issue a while back on a Jazz bass. I went to the Hobby Lobby and picked up a sheet of brass. Traced the neck profile on it, cut just inside the lines, and drilled for neck screws and BLAM! It worked great! Later on, I changed out the bridge for a BAII, and it bolted right on, action was too low, so I unbolted the neck, took out a couple of the brass plates I had in there (there were 3 of them, very thin gauge, I cut them with scissors!) and I was back in business.

My Warmoth has a countersunk bridge, which I love. I can get down-on-the-deck low action, with little or no buzzing. That one is a keeper for sure!

IMO, I'd shy away from modifying a bridge. If you grind off the bottom of the barrels, you will end up with less threads for the height adjustment screws to bite on. If you cut the saddles too deep, you'll need new barrels, and if you grind the bottom of the bridge plate, you may end up with a lopsided bridge, as well as less mass- which is probably why you got the Gotoh to begin with...

I'd shim it, but you seem to really not like that, my second choice would be routing the body

Now I'v tested the idea

Originally posted by g.ghost (in an other thread at another site)

Remove the saddle and lock the end into the chuck of an electric drill. (I attatched some Gaffa/silvertape at the cylinder end thats clamped into the chuck, to avoid dents)

Turn the drill on and it will spin the saddle like a mini lathe.

Use a rat tail file (round) and press it against the groove of the spinning saddle where the string sits.


Gradually wear the groove deeper into the saddle so the string will sit lower when installed in the bridge. I measured the string gauge and then marked that position on the file so I could get the slot as wide as the string.

I filed down the slot diameters to 6.8mm (the orginal slots were 7.9mm) on all sadles and then I installed them and then (to lower G str. a little extra) filed the G str. sadle upper 1/3 end down to 6.0mm (to save as much material as possible).
But... I'd to be carefull... the slots tend to come to close to the intonation screw hole.

Now I can get some pretty decent aktion: G str. 2.5mm - E str. 2.9mm gap at 12't fret

But I'm not compleatly satisfied ( as I wont be with the shime idea either) so... I'll probably change that Gotoh 201 bridge

Yes. By a vast margin. Not only the easiest, but the most effective IME.
I don't think i have owned a jazz bass in which i didn't shim the neck,it's the only way to get enough string height adjustment and won't alter the tone so,+1 for that!!:D

....I'm not compleatly satisfied ( as I wont be with the shime idea either) so... I'll probably change that Gotoh 201 bridgeI'd be very surprised if your MIM Jazz wasn't already shimmed, right out from the factory. Most are.
It's a part of a standard setup procedure.

I still don't understand why you wouldn't at least try a shim, but that's to be expected considering I don't understand much until I get my second cup of coffee...


It's like my a ghost in my brain tells me something like- not enough contakt... contakt problems... head and neck's gonna lose contakt with body! (probably silly but... ;-)

I'd be very surprised if your MIM Jazz wasn't already shimmed, right out from the factory. Most are.
It's a part of a standard setup procedure.


Ohhps... I'll check this out at ones (maybe I'll change the whole bass ;-)

(probably silly but... ;-)

It is silly, lots and lots of people shim and I have not heard something bad from any of them, and it only takes 5 minutes to install, just give it a shot and if you don't like it you can take it out with no lasting problems

Now I've checked my bass but there wasn't any shim in there.

but... OK I'll give it a try. Is there any links to where I can learn how to do it correctly. (the only shims I've seen have been rather bad, a bit of plastic,a small piece of wood vener and even a bowed 2" nail.All for "tilting" purpouse)

Is shimming just for "tilting" (seems worse in terms of contakt) or should it cover the whole neckpocket? (as I undersod from Bassic83 reply )

It's a Fender for hell's sake, not a MTD.
The notion of good contact between neck and pocket is non-existant for them.
Just make sure the shim is between the 2 lines of screws, not behind and you will be fine.

It's a Fender for hell's sake, not a MTD.
The notion of good contact between neck and pocket is non-existant for them.
Just make sure the shim is between the 2 lines of screws, not behind and you will be fine.


I don't really know how to say this (in a polite and serious manner ;-) but maybe something like

- You just confirmed my thoughts about shim as "unserious"

will do.

(Don't forget I'm a serious Swede. Not the veg. though ;-)

I used thin brass sheet, and I cut rectangles the size of the neck pocket. I then took scissors to the corners and notched them out to accomodate where the screws come through. I did about 7 of them, all the same, but ended up using only 3. It gave me just enough "lift", while maintaining good contact in the neck pocket area. I cut one in half, and used it in the back half (towards the body) of the pocket to get the amount of tilt I wanted. Took about 3 tries to get everything just right, but it worked like a charm!

I wouldn't use shimming as a permanent solution, I would grind down the LOWER side of the saddles. it's vitually invisible, and you can easily get 2..3 mms. Shimming works, of course, but I hate it.

Not that anyone specifically isn't being, but let's all be nice...


Sorry.
I didn't mean to harm.
I thought I saw some joking/ironical undertone in Jazz ads reply and I hope that was visible in my quote to.

I apologize if I looked to ruff.

Defenetly no hard feelings here.

I used thin brass sheet, and I cut rectangles the size of the neck pocket. I then took scissors to the corners and notched them out to accomodate where the screws come through. I did about 7 of them, all the same, but ended up using only 3. It gave me just enough "lift", while maintaining good contact in the neck pocket area. I cut one in half, and used it in the back half (towards the body) of the pocket to get the amount of tilt I wanted. Took about 3 tries to get everything just right, but it worked like a charm!



Thanks.
As I wrote abowe I've allready filed down the sadles quite a bit and it was helpfull but not enough.
So... I'll try Your way, now when I've unbolted the neck anyway.

Do You think shets of aluminium foil will do?

Thanks.
As I wrote abowe I've allready filed down the sadles quite a bit and it was helpfull but not enough.
So... I'll try Your way, now when I've unbolted the neck anyway.

Do You think shets of aluminium foil will do?


well, I don't think that shimming normally does any effect to the sound/sustain/anything, but multiple sheets of foil must absorb some vibration... similar to the sound-proofing technics. I suggest trying something solid instead.

Thanks.
As I wrote abowe I've allready filed down the sadles quite a bit and it was helpfull but not enough.
So... I'll try Your way, now when I've unbolted the neck anyway.

Do You think shets of aluminium foil will do?If it's really thick foil, it should work. A long time ago I had a P-bass copy, and I used a business card, folded. You'll want a couple mm of height to play with, perhaps you have a piece of hard plastic lying around that you could trim? Only real requirement is that it is not too compressible, or soft. Beer cans work, it's thicker than aluminum foil. Just wash the metal off after you cut it, and dry thoroughly! ;)

I thought I saw some joking/ironical undertone in Jazz ads reply and I hope that was visible in my quote to.There was none.
Actually a part of the Fender medium tone comes from the filtering in this assembly. If you glue the neck for example, it changes completely.

I wouldn't use shimming as a permanent solution, I would grind down the LOWER side of the saddles. it's vitually invisible, and you can easily get 2..3 mms. Shimming works, of course, but I hate it.What's wrong with shimming?

you mentioned switching the saddles to the originals. have you tried this yet?

and can you explain to me how filing the undersides of the saddles affects string height? did you remove the set screws?

What's wrong with shimming?

maybe "hating" was a bit strong, but actually I think shimming is just amateurish..:hiding:
the elegant way is to cut the neck pocket to the desired angle, but I understand that people usually don't like cutting their instruments :)
I don't like seeing a gap rising between the neck and the neck pocket.. that's all.

the elegant way is to cut the neck pocket to the desired angle, but I understand that people usually don't like cutting their instruments :)I personally think the "elegant" way is to have a "neck tilt" adjustment on a bolt-on bass. But that's just me.

Silly thinking. I took off the shim on my bass and there was no tone change.

Use a small thin piece of alder, and try it. If you like it, glue the alder using wood glue and be done with it. best of luck.

I personally think the "elegant" way is to have a "neck tilt" adjustment on a bolt-on bass. But that's just me.

Absolutely. Like the Fender Micro-Tilt. Almost no footprint contact but sounds perfectly fine.

That sort of blows the "contact" theory out of the water. The fact that literally hundreds of thousands of basses and other stringed instruments have been shimmed, would sort of suggest that it's the accepted way to adjust neck tilt.

Silly thinking. I took off the shim on my bass and there was no tone change.


I never said that there is a difference in tone. (except that if there are many sheets of something, which gives a soft pillow - like 30 sheets of aluminium foil)
I sait that I dont like it, the visual appereance of the gap, and think of it only as a cheap (factory) solution for something, which should have been corrected another way. And I dont want to change the neck angle... set it once for the instrument, and forget it.

The fact that literally hundreds of thousands of basses and other stringed instruments have been shimmed, would sort of suggest that it's the accepted way to adjust neck tilt.

+1... shimming is standard procedure for most manufacturers. I've removed factory shims from several basses with great results. In some cases I preferred the neck angle with no shim, in other cases I did a better shim job than the factory.

Factory shims are generally cut to the wrong size and shape, and placed incorrectly in the neck pocket. What you want to do is cut down a piece of a business card or postcard to about 1/4" wide by the full width of the neck pocket. Use a straightedge to get the same width all the way across the shim. Then round the corners to make it fit all the way back into the body end of the pocket. Because you're only tilting the last 1/4" of the neck heel, you don't need to worry about the bolts. And the leverage is increased exponentially compared to using a larger shim, so you should only need 1 shim.

Re shim materials and tone - I've tried wood and brass shim stock and keep coming back to the business card. Paper or thin cardboard seems to preserve the original tone of the instrument more than those other materials. If you're looking for more "growl", I know of at least 2 manufacturers that use sandpaper for their factory shims. ;)

+1... shimming is standard procedure for most manufacturers. I've removed factory shims from several basses with great results. In some cases I preferred the neck angle with no shim, in other cases I did a better shim job than the factory.

Factory shims are generally cut to the wrong size and shape, and placed incorrectly in the neck pocket. What you want to do is cut down a piece of a business card or postcard to about 1/4" wide by the full width of the neck pocket. Use a straightedge to get the same width all the way across the shim. Then round the corners to make it fit all the way back into the body end of the pocket. Because you're only tilting the last 1/4" of the neck heel, you don't need to worry about the bolts. And the leverage is increased exponentially compared to using a larger shim, so you should only need 1 shim.

Re shim materials and tone - I've tried wood and brass shim stock and keep coming back to the business card. Paper or thin cardboard seems to preserve the original tone of the instrument more than those other materials. If you're looking for more "growl", I know of at least 2 manufacturers that use sandpaper for their factory shims. ;)

I took the neck off my Schecter Stilletto and it had 50 grit sandpaper as a shim.:eyebrow:

+1... shimming is standard procedure for most manufacturers. I've removed factory shims from several basses with great results. In some cases I preferred the neck angle with no shim, in other cases I did a better shim job than the factory.

Factory shims are generally cut to the wrong size and shape, and placed incorrectly in the neck pocket. What you want to do is cut down a piece of a business card or postcard to about 1/4" wide by the full width of the neck pocket. Use a straightedge to get the same width all the way across the shim. Then round the corners to make it fit all the way back into the body end of the pocket. Because you're only tilting the last 1/4" of the neck heel, you don't need to worry about the bolts. And the leverage is increased exponentially compared to using a larger shim, so you should only need 1 shim.

Re shim materials and tone - I've tried wood and brass shim stock and keep coming back to the business card. Paper or thin cardboard seems to preserve the original tone of the instrument more than those other materials. If you're looking for more "growl", I know of at least 2 manufacturers that use sandpaper for their factory shims. ;)

+1000000000000
That's exactly the way I've shimmed necks for years, and it works perfectly with zero loss in tone.

If you're looking for more "growl", I know of at least 2 manufacturers that use sandpaper for their factory shims. ;)

Interesting, anyway!

I have a Dillion Mosrite copy bass that had a piece of sandpaper for a shim. Thought it was pretty funny. I think a piece of postcard works fine.

I just came by a thing that actually made some difference i action hight, that's to say, to press down the strings at nut and bridge sadles to get stright line strings.

Make it easy on yourself and go with the standard shim.IMHO

I took the neck off my Schecter Stilletto and it had 50 grit sandpaper as a shim.:eyebrow:

Sandpaper is not a bad idea for a shim. Many basses have neck pockets that are a tad sloppy and will allow the neck to move a bit from side to side. Generally this is not a serious problem. And often when I see a neck that's a little out of alignment (strings are a closer to one side of the neck than the other at the last fret) I give the neck a bit of a yank to realign it. A piece of sandpaper in the pocket adds a bit more bite to the neck/body joint and helps to keep the neck aligned.

Having said that, I prefer a tapered wooden shim in the neck pocket (thickest at the bridge side of the pocket and tapering to nothing at the other end). No gap that way. And once I have the thickness just right, I like to glue it into the pocket.

Nothing wrong with a bit of card stock, plastic, brass, etc. Even my Lakland that was admired for its tone and sustain had a factory-installed shim (plastic in this case).

Ingemar,

I tried MetalMitch's sandpaper suggestion on a neck and bridge replacement that I was working on, 150 grit, one full length one short to get a slight tilt. It increased growl just as MetalMitch said.

Thanks MelalMitch

Take a piece of old credit card or gas or key card about 3/8
of an inch wide cut it so it fits across the back of the neck heal this will do the trick . You will probably have to file this shim down as even a shim this thin will really bring your action down and I really doubt if you or anybody else unless
they have Lassie's ears would hear the difference.
Changeing the stock bridge will more than make up any loss
of sustain as well and by shimming it you won't be destroying
a bunch of good parts or your bass if you decide to return it to it's stock form.
B.

The neck tilt adjustment, whether it is accomplished by a proper neck tilt adjuster as on my Peaveys and many 70s Fenders, or by shimming, is one of the main reasons I prefer a bolt-on neck to a neck-through or set neck design.

I've modded my Fender MIM Jazz with a Gotoh 201 (black) bridge

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y103/Ingemar/GotohBlack201.jpg

but cause the bottom plate is much ticker (3mm) than the orginal bridge bottom plate (1,5mm) and the sadle cylinders has a wider diameter on the Gotoh, I can't get as low action as I want.The lowest I can get is about 3mm gap at 12't fret.

So...

As I understand, one way to go is to route down the bridge some 1-1,5mm in the body (seems like a job for a pro.), and another, to thin (mill) the bottomplate some 1-1,5mm (this I may manage myself)

Is there some disadvantages if I remove the hight/lowering screws in the sadle cylinders and let the cylinders rest directly on the bridge bottom?Will this cause sound transfering loss?
(I understand that this will affect the individual adjustement possibilities and that the sadles can "flex sidewise")


Suggestions?

Machining the bridge bottom is a way, shimming is a way, machining the saddle bottom is a way, yet...the Wilkinson vintage bridge will solve this problem. I don't think a thicker bridge bottom that doesn't work is actually an upgrade in certain circles, it just appears to be an upgrade that isn't really an upgrade in the sense that it belongs on the bass as built. The Wilkinson is slightly thicker than a stock Fender bridge bottom plate. Gotoh has to be built to, or shimmed...although its too chunky in my opinion and not worth the trouble your contemplating? Shimming is the least work, and it depends how much shimming??? Before we entertain bad tonal aspects. Good Luck.

Make it easy on yourself and go with the standard shim.IMHO

Sandpaper is a standard material for a shim. No, it's not used for more growl, or to keep the neck from shifting.

It's used because as the grade of the grit gets coarser, the sandpaper gets thicker. An assortment of sandpaper grits = an assortment of different thickness shims.

yet...the Wilkinson vintage bridge will solve this problem. I don't think a thicker bridge bottom that doesn't work is actually an upgrade in certain circles, it just appears to be an upgrade that isn't really an upgrade in the sense that it belongs on the bass as built. The Wilkinson is slightly thicker than a stock Fender bridge bottom plate. Good Luck.


Actually I've just changed (back, but black) to a noname (allparts) bridge in Fender MIM orginal style (a bit thicker than org. but not as thick and not so big sadle cylinders as the Gotoh 201) and it made for much lower action and no (at least in my ears) loss in sound (compared to the Gotoh).

As Bassberry said - an upgrade has to be an UPGRADE

Seriously:

JUST SHIM THE ******* NECK ALREADY!!!

It's rediculous to grind metal before spending 5 minutes to unscrew your neck and put a cut down business card in your neck pocket and re-attach the neck. If you are so concerned about sound - spend the 5 minutes and see if you can hear the difference.

I already have the answer - YOU CAN'T!!!

Since you are still unhappy, do yourself a favor and spend 5 minutes and try shimming the neck - it's really easy, and you will make yourself a whole lot happier. This is a common technique that people have been using for 50+ years, and many guitars and basses ship from the factory w/ a shim. 70's Fenders and 90's Peaveys have an adjustable shim built into their neck.

Try this today and let us know the results - just do a search on shimming, you will find plenty of threads about how to do it.

Edited:
OOPS - didn't see the last post. Even still shimming is easy, don't be scared people.

MOD EDIT: PLEASE REREAD THE USAGE AGREEMENT.

Funny I asked exactly that question of my bass tech and he said, "Put a 1/2 mm shim in the neck." I said, "But I'd rather cut down all the screws and lower the saddles that way." He said,"Shim it - you'll be spending so much time doing it your way - shim it." So there you go.

BTW - I'm talking about my MIM Jazz with exactly the same bridge upgarde as you describe.

I use a couple layers of standard index card stock that I cut into strips. Works like a charm.

Shimming's stupid easy, and carries the added advantage of not being irreversible because you're adding material, not taking it away. I use index cards cut into strips just because I'm a student and have a crapload of index cards laying around, sandpaper works fine too.

Well, in the end I've done both to my Jazz this weekend. I cut a business card in half lengthways and shaped it to the end of the neck. I've put in two layers or this card and retightened the neck. I've then adjusted the saddle allen screws, making sure that the ground off end was nicely bevelled so it would sit cleanly on the bridge baseplate. Job done. I've even set the outer saddles leaning out so the strings sit right above the pole pieces.

As far as the Ibanez is concerned - I think I'll have to leave the baseplate in place and replce the faulty saddles with barrel types (like Fender Standards or Gotoh).