Its my suspicion that good or really good bassists just have more in-born natural talent than the rest of us.

I play quite a bit (about 10hrs a week) yet I'm still a hack. I have a family so I cant invest more time than that.

I know over 100 songs, but I get the feeling that most bassist here on TB are much better than me.

How many hrs a week do you have to play to get "good"?

Whats the talent to hard work ratio? (ie for me its about 90% hardwork and 10% talent).

Hard work can compensate for a lack of talent IMO.

I practice a minimum of 40 hours a week. That doesn't include gigs, jam sessions, or studio work.

I have the good fortune to play often with two very good guitarists, both with many years of experience. One of them knows music very well and has taught me a lot about how songs are put together. He always knows what key we are in and always knows exactly what chord or note he is playing. He took lessons for years, polished his technique and studied theory. The other guy got a guitar when he was a teenager and sat next to the radio and tried to play along. He said it was really frustrating at first. It took nearly a week before he could play with whatever came on. Never had a lesson, can't read music and only knows some of the chords. He knows the fretboard notes only because he had to learn that to communicate with band members, not because he cares what they are when he plays. Neither one of these guys practice all that much anymore. Both have been in bands over the years and play at the level where they could do that now. We just jam together in the garage for fun and sometimes at a local blues jam. My point is that both ways work. I don't think I have a lot of talent but I can carry a rhythm pretty well and I am learning to adapt pretty easily. I read music and have a basic understanding of theory, especially as it relates to song structure. I think I could be the bassist in a decent blues band with a bit more practice.

I feel exactly like you Veganbass. I don't believe I have any talent for playing bass, and I always get frustrated at guys that have, because they seem to outgroove me in a lot of places.
But through hard work, two hours practice a day + a lot of theory studying (I know, some people practice a lot more than that) I've accomplished to become one of the most wanted bass players in my area.
My moms boyfriend once told me, that scientists say, that if you practice something a lot, you mind will develop a talent for that very thing - dunno if that is true, but sure hopes so :D
I've also heard, that being a musician really only is 10% talent and 90% hard work - no one learns without practicing, some might find it easier to understand and feel what they are doing (did that even make sence?)

i'm a very firm believer that the best players are the ones that have worked the hardest to get there. 10 hours a week is a start, but if you aren't also out playing with other people a lot, that's not that much, really.

Sonny Dallas, who's a great bassist if you don't know his work, had somebody come up to him on a break and was just going on and on about how great he sounded. He said "Hell, you're not hearing anything but a lot of hard work. If you do the work, you can sound like that too."

It doens't matter HOW much natural ability you have, everyone who's ever progressed as a musician did it because of the amount of work they put in. It's not really so much about time put in as it is about working in a focused, consistent and progressive manner. But, of course, someone working in a focused, consistent and progressive manner who can put in 5 hours a day is going to progress at a faster pace than someone who is able to do that 1 hour a day. But it is about sitting down EVERY day and working on it. Working on physical approach so that the instrument doesn't act as a impediment to getting the music inside you, out. Working on your ear so that you can hear with clarity, so that whatever you're hearing internally means something specific to you and whatever you are hearing externally (from the other cats you're playing with) means something specific to you. Working on your understanding so that this clarity of hearing is coupled with your ability to define exactly what you are hearing and how it functions.

It's ALL hard work.

Hard work + Talent is the ultimate!

Talent can bring you somewhere but,
Hard work can bring even further.

SB

I've never considered myself that talented.

However, I've been playing for close to 10 years and can fool people pretty well these days. I think it's like anything else... Effort Over Time.

I'd say that I'm 5% talent (or less) and 95% hard work.

I've only been playing bass for 6 years. The funny thing is, people are starting to think for some reason that I've got some level of talent. Ha! Fooled 'em!


I think that a lot of us feel this way about ourselves, but when we see others play we assume that they have some natural in born talent. We see a guy playing great and we think "he's got talent" we don't seem to think "he really practices a lot". Maybe it's a human nature thing?

It takes about ten years to become a professional level bass player. Now you will be playing and giging way before that, but to learn what you need to and get the experince using it is about a ten year process.

Being a musician is like any job and you put in about forty hours week into it. In general twenty hours practicing and twenty hours gigging/playing. As you get past the ten year mark practice is different its not so much learning skills, but more about musicianship and polishing skills and writing music.

As for natural talent I think that just help cut the time it takes to accomplish things. It take a lot of work and dedication no matter how much natural skill you start with.

It's ALL hard work.

Sorry, don't agree with that. Sounds abit like "doing time". For me it isn't hard or work, but easy and fun. If I want to learn something on bass, it's not a chore, but a pleasurable experience not mater how long it takes.

the more you play the better you get, its not really so much talent as it is continued work.

fwiw I average between 15 and 20 hours a week. Being in a band helped me push that up as it gave me some stress/pressure to keep up with my bass studies, also dropping out of college also helped.

Before my current band (which I joined in July 06) I played with a less motivating group and was putting in about 5-8 hours a week. Before that band when I just played alone I only put in like a 3 hours a week, lol, I was unmotivated before I met other musicians to play with.

I feel, like you, that I have been at this for some years now, but I don't consider myself very good at all. I'm certainly a hack.

But, I keep the right perspective. You get out what you put in. I'm a 40 something. I don't have the ability to practice 6 or 8 hours a day, nor do I have any notion of being able to get great. So, I just enjoy the journey, whatever it is.

I play about 1 hour a day. Sometimes 2 and sometimes 3 depending on the situation at home, and then I gig about 2 - 4 times per month.

With everything else I have going on in my life, I feel fortunate to do the small bit I can. And even though I'm not Jaco and never will be, I can still get great enjoyment out of this.

We all don't have to be masters. Laying down a good groove with a drummer, as basic as that sometimes might be, can be very cool and very rewarding.

I feel that in the long run, hard work and practice pays off better than talent. I know many people who have the natural talent and pick up things quickly. The trouble is because they learn it easily, they never develop a discipline for practicing, and never improve. You see these guys later in life playing the same old dives in the same old jam bands because they can't cut it a more professional band that actual expects its members to practice.

What's the talent to hard work ratio? (ie for me its about 90% hardwork and 10% talent).I'd say it's 95% perspiration to 5% inspiration.

And, yes, it should be a joyful journey! The whole road (read:situations) may not all be pleasant, but let the sense of fullfillment be your beacon. If it seems ya have to work a little harder than someone else, so be it. It's not really a comparative deal - you have to do it because you love to play. Kinda like putting blinders on a racehorse

Its my suspicion that good or really good bassists just have more in-born natural talent than the rest of us.

I play quite a bit (about 10hrs a week) yet I'm still a hack. I have a family so I cant invest more time than that.

I know over 100 songs, but I get the feeling that most bassist here on TB are much better than me.

How many hrs a week do you have to play to get "good"?

Whats the talent to hard work ratio? (ie for me its about 90% hardwork and 10% talent).

I think that this talent that you speak of is the result of hard word because any one that sounds like they have talent has worked hard even if its just on that one thing that they sound like have talent on. :D

10 hours is a lot of time, if its used correctly and in a focused way. What's correctly and in a focused way? Depends on your goals and what good means to you. If you spend an hour each day working on sight reading and an hour each day working on specific improvisation excercises for say 6 months, you would see an improvement in both of those areas. How much improvement depends on what you do. Look at deeply at any of the top bassists and you'll see things like musical training at an early age, parents that are musicians, painstaking practice. There's no quick or easy path and don't buy into the notion of talent without hard work.

Look at deeply at any of the top bassists and you'll see things like musical training at an early age, parents that are musicians, painstaking practice. There's no quick or easy path and don't buy into the notion of talent without hard work.

That isn't entirely true. Patrice Guers (Rhapsody of Fire) didn't start playing until he was 17 and his training consisted on 3 years with a music teacher and one year of music college. Other than painstaking practice, he doesn't meet those criteria, but he is an excellent bassist in several very different styles.

Tom Hamilton (Aerosmith) has never had formal musical training. He was 12-14, somewhere in that area of age, when he started playing, so not that late, but not that early either. His parents also weren't musicians.

I really don't think it would be that hard to find lots of other bassists that don't meet the first two requirements as well. It also depends how you view "top" bassists. Whether it is just technical skill, or factoring in composing their own parts as well, and whether you factor in good composers, but weaker bass players in technical ability.

I don't think there is ever a hard and fast way to compare the two, because there is no objective way to really measure talent. Not to mention defining what a "top" bassist is. Lots of technical skill is meaningless if you can't play anything that someone wants to listen to, but you can be influential and quite successful without much actual ability.

IMO actual "talent," is a over used phrase and an extremely rare thing. Sure here and there you hear about the six year old kid that never had a music lesson in his life but can somehow play everything on piano or some other instrument by ear.

That is really the true definition of talent, being able do something at a remarkable level without any instruction or work. Sure some people are more dextrous and can physically pick things up quicker, but this is not talent. that dexderity would apply to any physical endeavor.

Most players have played their instruments for years, the most adept usually start at a young age when it is easier to learn things quickly.

I'm often told that I'm a talented singer, and smile at the compliment. The fact is though I didn't start singing at all until I was 17. (I'm 35 now) I had fun, but basically I sucked bad. I took lessons and practiced a lot and read a lot of books on singing. My "talent," is actually years of hard work and not giving up, which I'm sure is the case for the majority of good players.

Hard works is often mistakenly labeled "talent." Which infers you can just do whatever naturally and didn't have to work at it at all to gain your skill.

"Talent," is also a word often used by people who decide to give up learning whatever endeavor because they are not as adept as a masterful player.

That isn't entirely true. Patrice Guers (Rhapsody of Fire) didn't start playing until he was 17 and his training consisted on 3 years with a music teacher and one year of music college. Other than painstaking practice, he doesn't meet those criteria, but he is an excellent bassist in several very different styles.

According to this site, http://www.metalstorm.ee/bands/bandmember.php?member_id=197, he was born in 1969 and his discography according to this site, http://www.patrice-guers.fr.tc begins in 1996 or 10 years after he started and now he has been playing for 20 years. I'm not sure what point your trying to make, or maybe you are just agreeing with me. :D


Tom Hamilton (Aerosmith) has never had formal musical training. He was 12-14, somewhere in that area of age, when he started playing, so not that late, but not that early either. His parents also weren't musicians.

As of today he's been playing about 30 years.


I really don't think it would be that hard to find lots of other bassists that don't meet the first two requirements as well. It also depends how you view "top" bassists. Whether it is just technical skill, or factoring in composing their own parts as well, and whether you factor in good composers, but weaker bass players in technical ability.

I didn't define top bassists, nor did I coin the phrase.


I don't think there is ever a hard and fast way to compare the two, because there is no objective way to really measure talent. Not to mention defining what a "top" bassist is. Lots of technical skill is meaningless if you can't play anything that someone wants to listen to, but you can be influential and quite successful without much actual ability.

Hard work over time translates into what you may perceive as talent.

... We all don't have to be masters. Laying down a good groove with a drummer, as basic as that sometimes might be, can be very cool and very rewarding.

+1

That's probably the best I'll ever get: I just started learning a few weeks ago, and I'm middle aged. I won't ever be on a stadium tour. If I'm really, really lucky, and really, really dedicated, I might gig in a few local clubs and have a good time doing it. For me, that's good, and that's enough, and, oddly, that's driving me to practice stuff that, to my wife and kids, seems grindingly dull. "More scales, dad?" Yep, that's part of getting better. I'm driven by the certain knowledge that, if I dedicate myself to gaining some mastery over this instrument, I will, in time, do just that.

I think that learning to play bass is no different from any complex skill: a degree of mastery takes a long time, and dedication. There's some interesting observations on this in an essay (http://norvig.com/21-days.html) by Peter Norvig. From the essay, he notes that:

"Researchers (Hayes, Bloom) have shown it takes about ten years to develop expertise in any of a wide variety of areas, including chess playing, music composition, painting, piano playing, swimming, tennis, and research in neuropsychology and topology. There appear to be no real shortcuts: even Mozart, who was a musical prodigy at age 4, took 13 more years before he began to produce world-class music. In another genre, the Beatles seemed to burst onto the scene with a string of #1 hits and an appearance on the Ed Sullivan show in 1964. But they had been playing small clubs in Liverpool and Hamburg since 1957, and while they had mass appeal early on, their first great critical success, Sgt. Peppers, was released in 1967"

Certainly natural aptitude plays a part in all this: someone with larger, more nimble hands will have a bit of a natural advantage over someone with small, less dextrous hands, for example. I think that's only a small part of it, though.

I think that "talent" follows "passion". The few things in my life that I've been told I have a 'talent' for seem to be those things that align nicely with the things I'm passionate about. Is it that I've got some natural talent for this stuff, or is it that I'm just driven by my interest in them to develop latent skills? I dunno. I do know that I've had to put a lot of work into those few things to get recognition of a 'talent' for them.

If you love something, and you're willing to devote the time to it, including the dreadfully dull and boring parts, you'll get better at it. As far as playing bass, if you've got ears that work, and 1 or more limbs with which to play the instrument, your own passion for it will be the limiting factor, not whatever natural aptitudes you may have for it.

Then again, I'm pushing 40, just taking up bass, and haven't tried to make music in years, so I'm a bit biased in favor of the "hard work" point of view. I chose the phrase in my sig for that very reason: I have no great natural talent, and I know that learning a complex skill like this will take a long time. The rest of my life, actually. Knowing that, well, that's all the talent I really need.

Hard work can compensate for a lack of talent IMO.

I practice a minimum of 40 hours a week. That doesn't include gigs, jam sessions, or studio work.

How can you play 40 hours a week? I either have to go to work or study during the day and in the evening I can play a couple of hours but never more than four a day. I would love to play 40 hours a week but that's just impossible

Sorry, don't agree with that. Sounds abit like "doing time". For me it isn't hard or work, but easy and fun. If I want to learn something on bass, it's not a chore, but a pleasurable experience not mater how long it takes.

Feel free not to. Call me when you get to New York.

If you don't work on anything that's hard or that challenges you or takes some time to really get, you're not getting any deeper. That's fine if that's what you want, but my sense is that scenario is not what's driving veganbass's question.

The amount of "fun" someone has playing is kind of directly related to what they want and how much effort they want to expend. Shooting a few hoops in the driveway is kind of OK for me. It wouldn't have been for Larry Bird. Likewise, if somebody stuck me in a Celtics game, the amount of fun I had would have been seriously curtailed the first time I got between anybody and the basket. What Larry Bird found to be fun is the level that his game could get to if he stood in three point range at about 8 o'clock from the basket practicing left hand jumpshots for half an hour. And then moving over a foot and doing it another half an hour. And then over another foot...

Now if that creates endorphins for you and you're all happy and ****, GREAT. Thats' really good news. It isn't that way for everybody. What IS that way for everybody is that doing the work is the only way to get deeper into the music.

And being on the stand or in teh session, playing with cats on the deepest level I possibly can and making the most cogent and communciative musical statement I can, THAT is fun to me.

I'm a hard work bassist. I used to play 4 hours a day. I'm still practicing a lot and learning as much as i can.

I dont think playing an instrument requires that much of a talent compared to say sports like basketball etc. You just need to practise alot and practice efficiently. victor wooten first picked up bass when he was 5..and im sure he practised more than most of u guys do.

Its not like with singing, your vocal range cannot be improved dramatically even with training etc.

anyways ive played for like 7months and the last 2 bands ive played with gave me some great compliments like 'wow, i cant believe uve only played for only 7months'.

prolly either theyve been playing with incompetent bassists or that my outrageous headbanging moves gave them the illusion that ive been playin for quite awhile

i usually tell them 'maybe thats because i play almost everyday :-)'

+1

...There's some interesting observations on this in an essay (http://norvig.com/21-days.html) by Peter Norvig. From the essay, he notes that:

"Researchers (Hayes, Bloom) have shown it takes about ten years to develop expertise in any of a wide variety of areas, including chess playing, music composition, painting, piano playing, swimming, tennis, and research in neuropsychology and topology. There appear to be no real shortcuts: even Mozart, who was a musical prodigy at age 4, took 13 more years before he began to produce world-class music. In another genre, the Beatles seemed to burst onto the scene with a string of #1 hits and an appearance on the Ed Sullivan show in 1964. But they had been playing small clubs in Liverpool and Hamburg since 1957, and while they had mass appeal early on, their first great critical success, Sgt. Peppers, was released in 1967"
...

very interesting...I heard a quote years ago and cannot remember who said it, (maybe Count Basie or Duke Ellington). It was something like this;

"it takes about 10 years to learn how to play your instrument, then another 10 years to learn how NOT to play it."


i love that.

Its not like with singing, your vocal range cannot be improved dramatically even with training etc.
Sure it can. Everyone is born with their own absolute maximum range, but an untrained vocalist won't be able to come anywhere near what they could do with training.

I think that there may be some inherent musicality in some people but ultimately in anything there is a lot of work behind it. Be it playing the bass or swinging a golf club, kicking a soccer ball or driving a race car.

I've done the race car bit and there were certainly some talented drivers but more often than not it was lots of driving and training, studying the engineering of the vehicle and engine that got them to the front of the grid. I got to within .5 a second of the quick guys when I stopped and that was a fantastic achievement but the effort (and budget) required to get that .5 second was more than I was prepared to do.

I know I am a better player if I practice between my lessons and really focus and I can also sense in my playing when I have not put in the time. I don't hear changes as well or choose notes as easily when improvising. I can still do the bass 'money position' gigs easily but reaching the goal of being a jazz player/improvisor is going to be a lot of hard work.

There will always be better players but I find them inspiring. If they can do it, I can do it (with a lot of work).

Cheers

Sure it can. Everyone is born with their own absolute maximum range, but an untrained vocalist won't be able to come anywhere near what they could do with training.

of course a person can improve greatly from correct training. but not eveyone can sing like mercury even if they dedicate their whole life to singing. Its not just about the range, its also about the tone and whatnot. Its not like you can just alter the range and tone easily with an instrument

With instruments like bass or guitar its kinda different. Im sure if a kid started playin bass from a young age and practise rigourously and correctly he can prolly get technically as good as jaco, maybe even better. Or maybe worse, but not too far off

of course, im just talking about technique...not including creativity and stuff.

steve vai claims to practise up to 8hours everyday religously and
it really shows...

I hate to say this, but imo there is such a thing as talent :hiding: Sadly, I don't have it. My goddaughter, for instance, can draw with absolutely no training. I'd guess that with training, some (not all) can learn to draw as well. However, with training, she'll be so far past those people that...well, she just has a talent for drawing.

Similarly, I've met people who have a talent for a certain musical instrument. That doesn't mean that they need not practice; that doesn't mean that those people who don't have that talent will never, ever be able to play a musical instrument. However, some people just have this weird ability, and to deny that there is such a thing, or to claim that it is unimportant is, I think, denying reality.

I dont think playing an instrument requires that much of a talent compared to say sports like basketball etc. You just need to practise alot and practice efficiently. victor wooten first picked up bass when he was 5..and im sure he practised more than most of u guys do.

Its not like with singing, your vocal range cannot be improved dramatically even with training etc.

anyways ive played for like 7months and the last 2 bands ive played with gave me some great compliments like 'wow, i cant believe uve only played for only 7months'.

prolly either theyve been playing with incompetent bassists or that my outrageous headbanging moves gave them the illusion that ive been playin for quite awhile

i usually tell them 'maybe thats because i play almost everyday :-)'


Actually you couldn't be more wrong on the singing thing. When I first started I barely had an octave because of approaching singing tottally wrong. After learning how to do it in a relaxed manner I get over 3 octaves in my voice with a much improved quality. I'm 35 and still see improvements every now and then.

Singing IS much like an instrument, in that the more relaxed and fluid you can play the easier and more beautiful it comes out.

If it ain't inside, it ain't coming out. You can work whatever scale, fingering, plucking, tapping, vibrato, upside-down, inside-out technique for however long, but that doesn't mean you have something to say with your instrument.

I'm a hack, the first person to admit that. I really want to play well, but I take such an academic approach to it all. I've opened my ears more lately, and found out that music is really about self expression. I'd decided to focus more on what I'm hearing on the inside, and getting that to come out of my instrument.

But to answer the question, I rehearse with my band 2 hours a week, we play pretty much every other weekend. I practice at home to CDs, books, etc, about 8-10 hours a week. I listen to music all day long (recently started to do this), and I believe that has helped as well.

If it ain't inside, it ain't coming out. You can work whatever scale, fingering, plucking, tapping, vibrato, upside-down, inside-out technique for however long, but that doesn't mean you have something to say with your instrument.

I'm a hack, the first person to admit that. I really want to play well, but I take such an academic approach to it all. I've opened my ears more lately, and found out that music is really about self expression. I'd decided to focus more on what I'm hearing on the inside, and getting that to come out of my instrument.

But to answer the question, I rehearse with my band 2 hours a week, we play pretty much every other weekend. I practice at home to CDs, books, etc, about 8-10 hours a week. I listen to music all day long (recently started to do this), and I believe that has helped as well.

That's a good point. I know a guitar virtuoso in the Chicogo land area that's a bit of a local celebrity (and a legend in his own mind. He has technical skill that rivals just about any famous guitar player.

But..... whenever I hear him play at a gig or just picking up a guitar at a party it's like he's just reiterating other peoples songs, or going through technical drills..... "now I'm doing rock, not I'm doing country, now I'm doing prog......," just to show everyone his wide range of knowledge.

He is a great player, but you never get the sense that anything just of the moment, or purely emotional will ever come out of his playing.

I feel, like you, that I have been at this for some years now, but I don't consider myself very good at all. I'm certainly a hack.

But, I keep the right perspective. You get out what you put in. I'm a 40 something. I don't have the ability to practice 6 or 8 hours a day, nor do I have any notion of being able to get great. So, I just enjoy the journey, whatever it is.

I play about 1 hour a day. Sometimes 2 and sometimes 3 depending on the situation at home, and then I gig about 2 - 4 times per month.

With everything else I have going on in my life, I feel fortunate to do the small bit I can. And even though I'm not Jaco and never will be, I can still get great enjoyment out of this.

We all don't have to be masters. Laying down a good groove with a drummer, as basic as that sometimes might be, can be very cool and very rewarding.

I agree with you. I've been a bassist for over 18 years now, but I'm not looking to be "great". I have fun playing when I have time and laying down a good groove is all it takes for me to feel like I'm a halfway decent player. Playing bass is not a rat race to see who is better than who. I aint trying to be a master, just a player doing his small part in this universe.

I hate to say this, but imo there is such a thing as talent :hiding: Sadly, I don't have it. My goddaughter, for instance, can draw with absolutely no training. I'd guess that with training, some (not all) can learn to draw as well. However, with training, she'll be so far past those people that...well, she just has a talent for drawing.

Similarly, I've met people who have a talent for a certain musical instrument. That doesn't mean that they need not practice; that doesn't mean that those people who don't have that talent will never, ever be able to play a musical instrument. However, some people just have this weird ability, and to deny that there is such a thing, or to claim that it is unimportant is, I think, denying reality.


+1000
While there is truth to what ppl are saying, I think some ppl say that to make themselves feel better. I also dont agree that its 95% work and 5% talent. Since we dont cant measure talent, how do we know how much is work and how much is talent? I think to some ppl, that percentage could easily be 80-20, or even 70-30. Some ppl have a more creative talent than others, and I believe that the hard work is just the keys that open more locks to release the creativity inside you. So while hard work may get ppl where they want to be, you cant discredit the likelihood that someone with talent can get further with the same effort.

I'm sure every musician has felt like this at one point or another. I wanted to share something that I came across and has served as one of the single most inspiring commentaries on dedication and commitment to music. It comes from Jeff Schmidt, a member on Talkbass, who is not only an amazing musician but a very insightful and thoughtful person as well.

http://www.beautiful-bass.com/weblog/2006/08/its_all_about_practice_1.html

Basically, it is all about practice. For those of you unfamiliar with Jeff Schmidt's playing, you can see him here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x302-rp_efQ

You cannot wake up one morning and play something like that on your bass. I remember hearing Victor Wooten talk about staying up for 24 hours straight to learn a Stanley Jordan song on his bass. Steve Bailey talks about having practiced for 12 hours a day at one point in his life.

We are very fortunate to have great and experienced players contribute here on talkbass. I noticed that Ed Fuqua chimed in earlier and offered similar advice as Jeff's and just in case you guys didn't know, here's an article about Ed:

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=1779

It would not hurt to pay attention to what these amazing musicians are saying about practicing and commitment!

Also, for those of us who have demanding jobs and families like myself, I would add that it's not as much the amount of time that you put in but the quality. I get to put in only so much time every day, but I'm constantly growing and learning. Teachers like Carol Kaye and Todd Johnson say that you can make huge leaps in progress in playing just an hour or hour and a half a day. It is important to play consistently but we don't need to practice 4 hours a day in order to become the musicians we'd like to be.

One other brief remark. I spent a year and a half of my life learning Arabic at the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio of Monterey in CA. It is one of the most prestigious language schools in the world. I spent 8 hours a day in the classroom with native speakers of Arabic and after a year and a half, I was as fluent as any westerner who has never lived in the Middle East can be in the language. Basically, they took a total white guy from the suburbs and taught me one of the most difficult languages in the world. I learned so much about just learning in general through that experience. Granted, it was a very intense program, but if they could teach a guy like me another language then anybody can learn music (which is very similar to learning a foreign language IMO!)

Peace.

If it ain't inside, it ain't coming out. You can work whatever scale, fingering, plucking, tapping, vibrato, upside-down, inside-out technique for however long, but that doesn't mean you have something to say with your instrument..

I tend to agree... people worry about not having skills in certain areas of bass playing, and think therefore it must mean that anything they play somehow doesn't have the same value as something a virtuoso would play... which is just not true... we can all make a meaningful musical statement regardless of where we are in our development

there are obviously tons of situations where you NEED to bring certain abilities to the table, but there's nothing to stop you doing something with the skills you have... just because you couldn't sit in with some NYC jazz cats and keep up doesn't mean what you have to express isn't worth playing

it's like being ashamed of your own voice or vocabulary

I think some things can be improved upon to a point through hard work, but some people are just naturally better at other stuff... i.e. I believe my timing will never be as accurate as some people, even if I practice my ass off for another 20 years... I just don't think I have the kind of brain motor control whatever that allows people to play metronomically super tight... no matter how much I've practiced, whatever my brain concieves doesn't always accurately get transferred to my fingers... and I don't think any amount of hard work will fix that... ultimately I wish i'd spent less time trying to emulate a machine and more time exploring & featuring what's basically a consequence of being human :)

just work with the tools you have and make the most fantastic music you can

I'm sure every musician has felt like this at one point or another. I wanted to share something that I came across and has served as one of the single most inspiring commentaries on dedication and commitment to music. It comes from Jeff Schmidt, a member on Talkbass, who is not only an amazing musician but a very insightful and thoughtful person as well.

http://www.beautiful-bass.com/weblog/2006/08/its_all_about_practice_1.html

Basically, it is all about practice. For those of you unfamiliar with Jeff Schmidt's playing, you can see him here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x302-rp_efQ

You cannot wake up one morning and play something like that on your bass.


Actually, I did wake up that morning and play that on my bass.

But I traded over a year of nights and weekends for it. :)

BTW - thanks for your kind words and for spreading the word about putting in the time & effort.

We are very fortunate to have great and experienced players contribute here on talkbass. I noticed that Ed Fuqua chimed in earlier and offered similar advice as Jeff's and just in case you guys didn't know, here's an article about Ed:

It would not hurt to pay attention to what these amazing musicians are saying about practicing and commitment!


Absolutely, for me the great thing about talkbass is the access we have to some fabulous musicians. I think we do them a disservice if we assume that they have some magical advantage over the rest of us.

The best advice I ever got from a more experienced bass player was to 'quit trying to learn songs and licks and work on your basic technique'. I've found that any problems I've encountered - whether they relate to timing, dexterity, quality of tone etc - all come back to minute details of technique. No mystery, no secrets, just focus and application.

Whenever I hit a 'plateau' in terms of playing, the only way for me to get beyond it is to go back and work on the absolute basics, which (being a hack player), sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But I know enough to know what I'd need to do if I really, really wanted it bad enough :)

Good thread. My contribution to it is to say I've been blessed with a lot of natural talent, but if I don't practice for a while, I kind of suck.

I'm sure every musician has felt like this at one point or another. I wanted to share something that I came across and has served as one of the single most inspiring commentaries on dedication and commitment to music. It comes from Jeff Schmidt, a member on Talkbass, who is not only an amazing musician but a very insightful and thoughtful person as well.

http://www.beautiful-bass.com/weblog/2006/08/its_all_about_practice_1.html



+1 ... great short essay if you follow the link.


Granted, it was a very intense program, but if they could teach a guy like me another language then anybody can learn music (which is very similar to learning a foreign language IMO!)


I learned to speak fluent German earlier in my life. I've been using that experience as a template for learning to play bass now that I've finally started making music again in middle age. I agree that learning to play a musical instrument has a lot of parallels to learning a foreign language. Funny thing: I've been told I have a talent for learning languages. It only ever seemed like hard work to me, studying vocabulary, grammar, pronunciation.

In light of Jeff's blog, I wish I knew how to practice. Seriously, I seem to toil away, and take little from it. I've even had teachers in the past, but still feel like I'm not getting very far.

In addition to working hard, I think you gotta work smart. and maybe some people are smarter than others? ;)

Things like, if you know that you have issues crossing strings and what not, then do the exercises that minimizes the issue that you are facing, and then do it to a point where you can incorporate it with you playing, starting slow and working up in a controlled manner, blah blah blah...

Slight rhetoric but you'd be amazed at the amount of people that sidestep the real hard things that they think they might need to work on, and then wonder why they aren't progressing.

Practicing what you don't know is one thing, knowing what you don't know is another.

How can you play 40 hours a week? I either have to go to work or study during the day and in the evening I can play a couple of hours but never more than four a day. I would love to play 40 hours a week but that's just impossible

I feel the same as you, but sometimes we/I face the fact that some people do and have the means to put much more time into this that I can, and possibly if they are reaping the rewards of it, they deserve it. But all this after hanging out on the Janek Gwizdala forum a bit!

Personally, I think there's more to consider than just talent and work. If I practice speed drills for four hours a day, and nothing else, I'm gonna be fast, but ask me to right a groove and I'll blaze my way across the fretboard and out of whatever band I just joined. Maybe it's playing smart, practicing smart, maybe there's even more to it. I have a friend in my concert orchestra (for high school) that's been playing for about eight years. He's "done his time", practiced and done everything the teachers told him too, but he doesn't take the instrument seriously. The other bassist(I've been playing standup for two months, so it's not me =)) gets great sound, but has only been playing for two years. He takes the instrument more seriously, and actually wants to play it, but has less experience and doesn't practice as much.

In light of Jeff's blog, I wish I knew how to practice. Seriously, I seem to toil away, and take little from it. I've even had teachers in the past, but still feel like I'm not getting very far.

I totally hear you. Have you ever visited Gary Willis' site? He has some helpful information but one thing that always struck me about him was his ability to identify and solve problems. I think of somebody like Gary Willis and I believe he would be successful at whatever path he chose to take in life. He talks about how he came up with certain ideas and even things like developing the Ramp and his fingerboard harmony, he identified his weaknesses as a player and tackled them head on. I'm willing to bet it's the same with most top musicians and professionals in all other aspects of life as well. You look at professional athletes, businessmen, astronauts, professors, architects etc. if you enjoy what you're doing and are committed to it, the world will make room for you.

That's the deep part. Here's the practical and pragmatic part. If you don't have a good teacher, find one. I have studied with some of the best but right now I'm in an area where nobody was really able to offer me much in terms of instruction that would help me. I began studying online with Cliff Engel and I cannot say enough good things about it. He will talk to you about the importance of organizing and maintaining your practice sessions and it is a very comprehensive program. He's cheap too, way less that i ever paid for lessons.

For what it's worth, hope that helps.

i'm a very firm believer that the best players are the ones that have worked the hardest to get there. 10 hours a week is a start, but if you aren't also out playing with other people a lot, that's not that much, really.

There's 10 hours noodling around your house, and there's 10 hours playing with other musicians. IME, time spent playing with others accelerates your improvement. Not sure if there's some exact formula for it (so of the TB'r out there have probably figured one) but 10 hours playing with other musicians has got to be worth close to 20 hours of noodling around the house. ;)

I vote for better equipment.

Whatever it is you are not good at can be compensated for by browsing the classifieds section here, eBay, and craigslist for hours on end. As soon as I buy a Fodera, I will be able to play like Victor.

And really expensive cables. You need those.

I agree with the some are smarter than others line of thinking, but that can also be overcome. Pride was my issue for many years. Back when I got over myself I started learning what I didn't know about playing bass: I made some good friends, and played with people that were much better than I was. That's when I started learning. It's also when an hours work = something of a forward motion.
There is a talent metric in music, but that's true in life in general.

When I learned to say: Man that's great, you are the man, show me how you did that. I started learning to play.

The other side of me, the old one would have said: You think that's something, watch this.

I vote for better equipment.

Whatever it is you are not good at can be compensated for by browsing the classifieds section here, eBay, and craigslist for hours on end. As soon as I buy a Fodera, I will be able to play like Victor.

And really expensive cables. You need those.

I'm going to go ahead and totally disagree with you, then realize you're probabley joking.

I gotta say talent is something that kind of ticks me off. I always hear the other bassists say how good they are and then i look at what i've accomplished and it's nothing compared to them. One guy who's in about 3-4 bands just practices with his band and only picks up the bass for band time. The thing about how nobody's competing on skill isn't true in some situations. Bands in my high school look for so much skill and always go up to these two really talented guys so they get into more bands. There is such a limited amount of bands starting up it's kind of a hassle to get in one. So these guys are left with so many bands and i'm left with nothing.At least i have a less crowded schedule so i can concentrate on a band more than having to deal with a number of them. That's the reason why i'm getting lessons so i can improve my technique. I find if i work my ass off and get into the right direction i can stand a chance into getting into a band. Freakin high school.

for bass
60% talent 40% work

OT but funny
[the reason I hardly got good grades in school]
80% talent 0% work

I practice and play every day, even if its only for five or ten minutes and I gain more confidence and insight into where I am weak, and go on from there

I believe it's more about hard work , I practice for hours every day and I still am way behind some bass players in my town .

However I believe succes as a bass player comes from knowing the rigth people ,here where I live I see mediocre players with crappy gear and no dedication to their instrument ( some guys don't even have a bass they are always borrowing one) and they get gigs all the time .

I think that there is natural talent, but all that it does is get you more returns for hard work. I've been told that I have a gift for languages, for example, but all that that means that if I spend a bit of time learning a grammatical rule, I learn it more confidently and faster. I still have to work. besides, it's about 90% motivation. I like learning languages, grammatical structures, conjugations, etc, so I ask questions when I want to know something. then, I learn it even better that if I had simply been told it.

very similar with music. some people can learn something in less time than others. within my band, I'm the newest player by at least a factor of 2-3, and I'm rapidly catching up to the others. I have some talent for music, but I'm also playing catch-up, which is easier to find motivation. I practice when I want to, which is often, and for decent lengths of time. I LOVE finding that I'm noticably faster or more dextrous than last time I played.

in short... talent exists, but it only makes hard work worth more. motivation is what makes hard work happen in the first place. motivation is everything.

In light of Jeff's blog, I wish I knew how to practice. Seriously, I seem to toil away, and take little from it. I've even had teachers in the past, but still feel like I'm not getting very far.
If you guys think you're not getting very far, there's no hope for me. :(

I noticed in Jeff's blog he mentioned that he picked up the instrument only 4 or 5 years ago (after taking an extended break).

Jeff, if you're reading this, how well could you play before, and how much were you able to improve since picking it up again? If you don't mind me asking, looking back, what were some of your most useful practicing habits?

you can't really have skill w/ out talent. Skill is talent that has been refined. Any good critic knows how to draw the distinction between the two. That's something that might help the judges on American Idol stop making asses out of themselves.

you can't really have skill w/ out talent. Skill is talent that has been refined. Any good critic knows how to draw the distinction between the two. That's something that might help the judges on American Idol stop making asses out of themselves.

I disagree, but it might be semantics. I know a few musicians I would consider very skilled but not talented. An example is a friend that plays piano. He can play almost anything you put in front of him precisely as written but he can't jam, never improvises or tries to write anything. Can't (won't?) play by ear. I don't think he has ever played anything other than what was placed in front of him. He has great dexterity and is skilled at playing piano keys, but seems to be lacking in musical talent.

here's an interview that might answer your questions about Jeff's playing and about the break he took from music.

http://basssessions.com/dec05/jeffschmidt.html

I agree with the some are smarter than others line of thinking, but that can also be overcome.

Being the math geek that I am, I also think very 'unintelligent' people can actually work their way up to dealing with Calculus given the patience and dedication, but the truth is that a lot of people can't being themselves to deal with the real pains and trials that dealing with this type of material brings. Completely they believe they could do it if they laid out a game plan and did everything they could to accomplish it, but let's face it, only so many people go through that tough of a process to get their reward. Fact is, it ain't easy, and no one comes out of the womb knowing how to do it all. Well, except Lenny Ng.

Exactly how playing music is sometimes.

I noticed in Jeff's blog he mentioned that he picked up the instrument only 4 or 5 years ago (after taking an extended break).

Jeff, if you're reading this, how well could you play before, and how much were you able to improve since picking it up again?

As a teen I was told I was "better" than the other bass players around my little town - but truth be told - I just sucked less than them.

I could play faster than most of them almost immediately - so I do think at a base level - there was something there that some other players didn't seem to have at the early stages.

But - I really think if those kids focused on it - they could probably play faster than me.

I really do think time, effort and focus is the great equalizer and can make up for almost every deficit of "natural" or "inate" abilities.


If you don't mind me asking, looking back, what were some of your most useful practicing habits?

When I returned to playing "seriously" I went back ALL the way to the beginning. Right to the basics - finger plucking, alternating, string crossing, 1 finger per fret stuff. It's quite humbling being a guy that thought I could "play" realizing I couldn't pull off even basic string crossing drills.

I put forth the effort - I didn't master it - not by a long shot but I worked thru it. I have since forgotten most of those excerises and drills. BTW - Todd Johnson's technique builders DVD is excellent in this area - I should actually run thru that again for a few weeks.

But recently - the past 12 months - I've experienced the most dramatic levels of growth in my playing ever.

It came from 2 things. Playing more than ever - and knowing when NOT to play.

What I've focused on is writing and playing my own solo music.

Learning to play my own solo tunes keeps me in the shed - it motivates me. Also - it helps me get out of practicing "techniques" abstracted from music. So my focus is all about writing & practicing my songs.

And knowing when NOT to play. Knowing when to let there be space and not play. I'm actually in that phase right now. Normally I'd be playing all night - but recently I've felt the need to take a rest. I play a little each day - and a few days not at all - but not the hours on end I had been doing just a few weeks ago. Soon though - I'll be back in the shed again. It's cyclical and you have to respect that.

I don't understand why a lot of the people on here are so hard on themselves. I'm sure it's not all 95% hard work for example.

Also, I believe that you can't judge using a percentage.
I got accepted to the most applied arts school in Canada, and a few other TBers have gone here.
Clearly, I have a talent in one way or another for the instrument. Yea, I worked hard. Not as hard as I should have, but I worked fairly hard.

Now I'm here, I hardly study for class, but I manage to pull off High 80s, and low 90s. How? I have NO idea. But, I think it slightly pushes into 'talent'

I don't mean to come off as cocky. I'm merely confidant in my playing. But, by all means I have quite a ways to go. I still lack experience, and chops that can only be acquired through years of playing.

coltrane was a "master practicer" (jimmy heath quote) i know he practiced hours and hours every day over many years. during the later years, after his solos, during the piano solo or bass or drums, he would go backstage and continue to practice and come out again when it was time. a friend of mine tells a story about how he ran into naima in the subway. she was all flustered and had to get out of the house because coltrane had been playing the same 2 notes for over 3 hours trying to get them perfect. one of history's most "talented" musicians worked his ass off practicing.

Its my suspicion that good or really good bassists just have more in-born natural talent than the rest of us.

I play quite a bit (about 10hrs a week) yet I'm still a hack. I have a family so I cant invest more time than that.

I know over 100 songs, but I get the feeling that most bassist here on TB are much better than me.

How many hrs a week do you have to play to get "good"?

Whats the talent to hard work ratio? (ie for me its about 90% hardwork and 10% talent).

For me, the whole thing is about transferring what is in your head, through your body/fingers, to the instrument. That's not easy but it makes "practicing" not really practicing, to me. If you can't hear it in your mind's ear, I think all the practice in the world isn't going to help that much.

I honestly think that, generally, people who say "I'm talented" should really say "I'm lazy", because it's their way of justifying their lack of practice time.

It's usually really, really obvious.

Practice- dedicated, focused, serious, hard work- is everything. Sloppy and meaningless practice will get you nowhere.

I believe in talent, but it ain't nothin compared to skill. Talent will take one only so far, but you gotta do the work to develop that into skill.

coltrane was a "master practicer" (jimmy heath quote) i know he practiced hours and hours every day over many years. during the later years, after his solos, during the piano solo or bass or drums, he would go backstage and continue to practice and come out again when it was time. a friend of mine tells a story about how he ran into naima in the subway. she was all flustered and had to get out of the house because coltrane had been playing the same 2 notes for over 3 hours trying to get them perfect. one of history's most "talented" musicians worked his ass off practicing.

I wonder how many untalented but hard-working players could hear the differences well enough to need or want to do what Coltrane did.

I wonder how many untalented but hard-working players could hear the differences well enough to need or want to do what Coltrane did.

i guess only enough to make him one of the most revered musicians in history.

I honestly think that, generally, people who say "I'm talented" should really say "I'm lazy", because it's their way of justifying their lack of practice time.

It's usually really, really obvious.

Practice- dedicated, focused, serious, hard work- is everything. Sloppy and meaningless practice will get you nowhere.

:rolleyes: Thats a VERY BIG generalization. a nice "SOME" placed in your statement would be appreciated. Im not catching feelings, but Im actually one of those "talented" ppl. How do you know how well talented ppl practice?? There are SOME on here that have admitted it, but it aint everyone. I have quite a musical talent and Im proud to know it, but I do recognize that ability starts the race, but its discipline that finishes. I put more that 2 hrs a day on sometimes 3 different instruments (yes quality time). So I dont know who you hang around, but dont pass that off on the rest. :cool:

i guess only enough to make him one of the most revered musicians in history.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not dissing Coltrane, I love Coltrane, and I think he was extremely talented and hard-working. I was saying that it was his talent that made him able to hear the smallest differences and nuances. And in saying that I was implying that people who are only hard-working and without talent might not be able to hear sound to the same degree as someone with talent. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Natural talent + 0 work = good player
0 Natural talent + Hard work = good player

Natural talent + Hard work = genius (or at least that is how it's worked out for everyone from Jaco to Sting and Coltrane to Bill Clements (a singular and shining example of the benefits of hard work)).

Not to brag, I uck horrible ateverything I still get tons of fret buzz, but I seem to have a nack with rhythm and groove. Its like I feel were the song is headed and can lock into a song after hearing it once. Songs I have never hear before I can sometimes tell my friends when a solo is going to happen of a dynamic shift, freaks them out.

Also I barely get in any practice, about 10 hours a week. If I practiced more my playing would be much much better.

:rolleyes: Thats a VERY BIG generalization. a nice "SOME" placed in your statement would be appreciated. Im not catching feelings, but Im actually one of those "talented" ppl. How do you know how well talented ppl practice?? There are SOME on here that have admitted it, but it aint everyone. I have quite a musical talent and Im proud to know it, but I do recognize that ability starts the race, but its discipline that finishes. I put more that 2 hrs a day on sometimes 3 different instruments (yes quality time). So I dont know who you hang around, but dont pass that off on the rest. :cool:

Cool.

I stand by what I said, 100%.

In my 50 laps around the sun, in every endeavor I've undertaken, the formula to success seems to be (1% talent + (99% hard work * x% passion)).

PauperBoy,

I like your formula even better than mine!

Spin

well, here's the thing. we're all practicing towards something, going a certain direction, or certain directions... so there's two criteria that a musician (or anyone else) is judged on, and that's which direction a person is going, and how far they went. originality is finding a new direction, while talent just means you cover more ground in the direction you go. but if you want to be as good as someone who practices twice as much as you, you'd better be damn talented or really original or photogenic or some fluke.

Natural talent + 0 work = good player
0 Natural talent + Hard work = good player

Natural talent + Hard work = genius (or at least that is how it's worked out for everyone from Jaco to Sting and Coltrane to Bill Clements (a singular and shining example of the benefits of hard work)).

This is still my favorite of any formulas/equations offered, though I might downgrade "talent + 0 work" to "decent" or "adequate" and I doubt there are many people that have absolutely zero talent but still put in the work. If you change "0" to "a small amount" then I agree completely.

I watched a special yesterday on the making of the movie "300" (which looks AMAZING, by the way). The special was on the conditioning of the actors to make them look like Spartan Warriors. The trainer, who was built like a brick sh*thouse, said the key was to do something different everyday, to confuse the body so it is constantly working towards improvement.

If you have been practicing but feel like you've hit a wall, try something totally different. Jazz. Reggae. Afro-cuban Rhthyms. Get out of your comfort zone. This may inspire you to get past the plateau, so to speak. I remember reading that Billy Sheehan has totally "reconstructed" his playing style several times throughout his career to keep himself constantly learning.

My $.02, FWIW.

I must say I'm honestly surprised so many people put so much into the idea of "natural talent".

I think i have very little talent. I'm just a hard worker, and will work hours on individual tunes to make them as close to the original recording I can get. Bass never came easy, but I've worked hard over the years to improve myself. But I'll never be Geddy Lee or Stu Hamm. Just ain't in the cards.

For me, the whole thing is about transferring what is in your head, through your body/fingers, to the instrument. That's not easy but it makes "practicing" not really practicing, to me. If you can't hear it in your mind's ear, I think all the practice in the world isn't going to help that much.

I'm glad to hear that this is the case. In fact, it's my main problem. When I listen to music or when jamming I'm always thinking about something that would sound so badass, but I don't know where the bleeping notes are at on the fretboard. I've gotten a little better with this over the years but I'm totally stuck in a rut for the most part.

I'm not going to hi-jack this thread, but I have a question for Jeff Schmidt: In your interview which was linked to above, you said the following:

We eventually moved into music theory and harmony. When Michael showed my how to map the fingerboard with essentially five shapes that covered all major scale harmony--and when I discovered the shapes didn't change from key to key--it was like someone turned on the sun

What are these five shapes? This is the kind of knowledge that I'm desperate to learn.

Thanks,

Monkus

I guess if you dont get it, you dont get it. *shrugs*

OHMYGAWD! This thread got me motivated.

I'm sure every musician has felt like this at one point or another. I wanted to share something that I came across and has served as one of the single most inspiring commentaries on dedication and commitment to music. It comes from Jeff Schmidt, a member on Talkbass, who is not only an amazing musician but a very insightful and thoughtful person as well.

http://www.beautiful-bass.com/weblog/2006/08/its_all_about_practice_1.html



I read he whole thing, interesting and uplifting but...then I read about Flea, he was playing trumpet at school; one day he picked up the bass in this band because the bass player was late...the next day he had replaced the bass player in the band permanently, just like that...that kind of stuff just throws me off...

I disagree, but it might be semantics. I know a few musicians I would consider very skilled but not talented. An example is a friend that plays piano. He can play almost anything you put in front of him precisely as written but he can't jam, never improvises or tries to write anything. Can't (won't?) play by ear. I don't think he has ever played anything other than what was placed in front of him. He has great dexterity and is skilled at playing piano keys, but seems to be lacking in musical talent.

This is quite common with classically trained musicians. Its all about the interpretation of whats on the page regarding dynamics, tempo and feel- which are all about musical talent IMO. Its just a different school of thought from what most bass guitar players subscribe too.

Hey guys. I've been bad for about 18 years. I've been in bands and stuff but really only put in the minimum required time because I really wasn't serious, I guess. I also took a couple of years off from the instrument at one point. For the last five years, I've been in a reasonably hard gigging band which was doing just over a hundred pub gigs a year (I know. That's why I said *reasonably* hard gigging). For the past few months, we've been down to one week-end a month because our fiddler moved to Calgary, which is about 3743km of road away from here, so he has to fly in for gigs. Plus, the guitarist has a new wee one, so he doesn't have as much time as he used to either.

Since we started gigging, we've all become much better musicians, but after a while I feel that I sorta stagnated, so now that the schedule has slackened off a bit, I'm paying through the nose for lessons and I'm finally, after all this time, doing those scales. Learning chords. Reading my first chart. Making a terrible hash of slapping. Becoming a better bassist.

Wanting to deserve the new bass I'm ordering next month, I guess.

Because I really don't play like someone who's played for the better part of two decades. I realise that I'd never really stretched myself before, and that playing by ear is a good skill to have, but I never twigged on the fact that X bass line is a rundown from this major scale to that minor scale -- just as an example.

And I really want to understand it all. And I want to be able to slap, pop and tap like some of the really cool bassists we all hear from here at TB or see on YouTube.

Sometimes both. About six minutes ago, I discovered Jeff Schmidt. Believe me, I'll be checking out more.

Anyway, that's me. Trying to finally become good at this thing at the age of 34 :-\

I'm not going to hi-jack this thread, but I have a question for Jeff Schmidt: In your interview which was linked to above, you said the following:

We eventually moved into music theory and harmony. When Michael showed my how to map the fingerboard with essentially five shapes that covered all major scale harmony--and when I discovered the shapes didn't change from key to key--it was like someone turned on the sun

What are these five shapes? This is the kind of knowledge that I'm desperate to learn.

Thanks,

Monkus

Hey Monkus - I've since come to learn the "shapes" Michael shared with me were based off info in the Musicians Institute book "Bass Fretboard Basics"

http://www.bassbooks.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=277

Page 30 is where the modal shapes thing starts.

The 5 shapes are also presented very nicely in Serious Electric Bass by Joel Di Bartolo.

Jeff, what did you mean by a "someone turned on the sun"? What about the shapes helped you start making better music? I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

before learning how major scale harmony lays out across the fingerboard from end to end - the fingerboard was a dark very mysterious place for me.

it's still mysterious to me - but I think that's cuz I keep changing the tunings ;)

When it comes to my practising hours, I don't even want to tell how much I do. I do a lot and I'm extremely focused.

It may be that I'm not especially talented but I have a very clear vision of what I'm aiming at. I believe that one day I'm able to play those bass lines I now hear only inside of my head.

Without that kind of a vision, I couldn't do those hours. Maybe it could be called some kind of a talent as well.

when I see bass players improvising on the spot, I know they are talented. that's something I'm just not able to do. i learn my parts doggedly and I go with it

When it comes to my practising hours, I don't even want to tell how much I do. I do a lot and I'm extremely focused.

It may be that I'm not especially talented but I have a very clear vision of what I'm aiming at. I believe that one day I'm able to play those bass lines I now hear only inside of my head.

Without that kind of a vision, I couldn't do those hours. Maybe it could be called some kind of a talent as well.

I'm speaking from a point of view of someone who has trouble focusing on anything for any length of time, so I'm wondering if you could go into a little bit more detail. What is it that you're focused on, learing the lines in your head, or just in general being better? How much time do you spend, and how do you spend that time? What steps do you follow to reach your goal, and how do you come up with those steps?

I apologize if my questions are too invasive, I'm just curious about what it's like to be so unlike myself. :)

Anything worthwile in life is hard. Life is hard.

Sure there are genious talents out there. Mozart wrote his first symphony at age 7 or 8, Flea picks up a bass and instantly becomes a funky monster etc.

Don't be put off by these stories because they cloud the reality for 99.999% of great musicians which is......

Hard work, lots and lots of it, revealed their talent and potential.

It takes a dedicated son of b to sit in a room with a music stand and pull apart diatonic harmony and figure out the relationship between chords, scales and arpeggios and then make music out of that. Thats solitary, brain freezing stuff.

At the end of the day, the audience sees the performance, the fruit of that solitary labor. They say "isn't he/she a monster talent".

The answer...damn right. They worked for every ounce of it!!

As prev stated..
Talent will get you on the way.. maby get you up to speed and motivate you to work hard.. But All talent and no hard work wont even get you out the door imo..
Ive found that 8h/day does'nt cut it.. Its great to get to know the basics.. but you need to pause.. you need to do more listening, need to play with new people .. that takes time.. Time is what many young players don't think they have.... they whant to be Pastorius, Wooten and/or Miller in a week.. It takes years of hard work to get to the point were you REALY can hold your own...
I recently got to see a movie called Revolver.. I got hooked up on a Quote from that movie.. A chess related quote.. whent something like: The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter oponent.. OR as I like to translate it: You only get better if you play with/listen to better people than yourself..

But.... Some just ain't in it to get better.. and I realy respect that.. If you think good music comes from the houers you put in to your personal training, your in for a surprice!

I'm speaking from a point of view of someone who has trouble focusing on anything for any length of time, so I'm wondering if you could go into a little bit more detail. What is it that you're focused on, learing the lines in your head, or just in general being better? How much time do you spend, and how do you spend that time? What steps do you follow to reach your goal, and how do you come up with those steps?

I apologize if my questions are too invasive, I'm just curious about what it's like to be so unlike myself. :)

No problem, your question is not at all invasive. :)

I don't think there is anything original in my practising but this is how it goes pretty much.

What is important for me is a desicion. Once I've decided, for example, that I want to be able to play a piece of music within a week or within a year I do whatever is needed to reach that goal, and I don't give up (the goal has to be, of course, somehow realistic). I analyse what steps need to be taken to reach that goal, and then I try to take them.

Secondly, I try to be systematic. I have a plan of what things need to be developed (right hand technique, left hand technique, sight reading, scales, chords etc) and I devote a certain part of my time to every aspect. Nearly everything is written down in my note book, too.

And when it comes to mistakes that I do a lot for example when playing with a band, I try to analyse what went wrong and why and what need to be done differently next time.

I've been palying bass for little less than three years now, and nearly all my time, except work and sports, goes to bass related issues. It's a bit too much but in this situation in life, it's okay.

Now after having gained certain technique and some knowlede of theory, I want to concentrate more on playing by ear. That's a big challenge too because as I said, I don't feel that I'm especially talented.