This is not going to be a better than Jaco thread and I wanted to make mention of that before it went down that route. However, because of how influential and far spanning Pastorius' influence was on fretless bass, I think that some fretless players today are still living under his shadow.

Jaco will always be a legend and could probably be considered the Charlie Parker of fretless bass. Comparisons are inevitable and that's fine, but two fretless bass players who I think have definitely showed the same level of skill, competency, and creativity on the fretless bass are Gary Willis and Alain Caron. IMO I don't think either of those two guys would give anything away to Jaco in any respect. What do you guys think?

Have you seen the Berlin/Bailey discussion on fretless bass at http://www.bassplayer.tv/ ?

Check it out.

Although Willis and Clairon may have flawless technique, even better than Jaco's, and even though they may not have any obvious "Jacoisms," they still can't touch the lyric approach, phrasing, and composing proficiency that Jaco achieved.

It has been said before, but easily forgotten, Jaco was as good a composer than a player, and his sensitivity, in my opinion, hasn't been matched yet by any other bass player, fretted or fretless.

Also, Willis' and Clairon's music relevance in time is still to be proven. I have most records from both artists, and to me, they both fail to compose memorable songs/melodies.

I was greatly dissapointed when I ordered all Clairon's collection. I listened to all the CDs, and failed to find anything memorable.

Willis I like better, although the idiom that he has choosen (arrangements, instrumentation, and band members) is not my favorite. I listen to a lot of fusion, and to listen to Willis and Dennis Chambers together is always a treat, but whatever is on top sounds just like an LA free jam, rather than relevant compositions.

So, A+ for technique and virtuosity, C- for composition and transcendece.

Some random thoughts on fretless players:

I like Bunny Burrell a whole lot, although he does show some Jaco influences.

Mark Egan has some really cheese stuff - although his last record is pretty good.

Steve Bailey: I love the guy, but don't really like the music that comes out of him.

Michael Manring: Awesome guy, very experimental trying to push the envelope, but compositions and production still not my cup of tea.

I took to playing fretless bass many (many) years ago after hearing a local guy who I really admired. Now and again people would say,
"You should listen to Jaco."
I don't really know why, but I didn't... I guess I'm a bit of a stubborn bugger.
One day (in the 1980's) I read a small article in the local paper that said he had died. For some reason I decided to check him out.
His musicality whacked me around the head!
NHOP, Victor and Edgar Meyer have done the same thing to me. I am not a 'Jaco clone' or an 'anyone else' clone. I like to learn from these people, but keep my individual thing happening.
Wow, that Jaco though! Wish I'd heard him earlier!

I was greatly dissapointed when I ordered all Clairon's collection. I listened to all the CDs, and failed to find anything memorable.
Evidently, even his name isn't too memorable to ya!





:D just jerkin' your chain!

Have you seen the Berlin/Bailey discussion on fretless bass at http://www.bassplayer.tv/ ?

Check it out.

Although Willis and Clairon may have flawless technique, even better than Jaco's, and even though they may not have any obvious "Jacoisms," they still can't touch the lyric approach, phrasing, and composing proficiency that Jaco achieved.



As far as composing I agree at least with respect to Alain Caron. I don't own a single Alain Caron CD! I have purchased songs off of his albums from iTunes, but not the whole CD because some songs just weren't my thing. I first heard of him from UZEB. I think Willis is an amazing composer although I don't always like some of his more experimental sounds. "It's only Music" has even appeared in Fake Books.

I agree Jaco was a great composer but I was more comparing technique, sound, and style on fretless. When I hear Gary or Alain or Jaco all walk over a standard, I don't think Jaco has anything on those guys. As far as soloing, I would give the nod to Willis and Caron because those guys can solo over any set of changes and sound so killer. Jaco's solos never seemed to really impress me as much.

You're right about Jaco's lines and phrasing being so memorable. That's something I probably took for granted.

If we were going to have a thread about the greatest electric bassist/composer (which would be interesting) then Jaco would also be on that list. I think Steve Swallow would be tops on mine and Jeff Berlin would be very near the top also along with those two.

Thanks for the tip about the Steve Bailey/Jeff Berlin discussion. I'm going to go check that out right now.

Well, I don't dig Caron much. Monster technique, but I've never listened to his music and been wowed by the compostion. I respect his chops, but catchy hooks seem to evade him, I find nothing memorable in what he writes.

Willis I dig a lot more, I like the way he jams and I dig his music. Nothing as ground breaking as what Jaco wrote, but it has merit all the same and he is certainly a top flight player.

Michael Manring I feel has taken it to another level. Like Jaco, he pushes the boundaries of what is expected from from bass, and writes excellent tunes at the same time. He is a player who has really found his voice, and I commend him for that. Consistently, I find Michael to be a player with a brilliant ear for melody. Similarly, I dig Steve Bailey. He is just incredible. I'll concede, perhaps not as ground breaking as Jaco but still brilliant.

A contemporary of Jaco whose music I rate just as highly as any Jaco album is Jeff Berlin. I used to think the guy was an arrogant ass, then I read what he was saying and I found him to be right in a lot of cases, a very intelligent man making a lot of sense! Musically, I felt he could always match Jaco as a player with his own voice and he has continued, over the years, to make startlingly good music.

Jaco's is a major milestone in the evolution of bass guitar. That said Gary Willis is another innovator of the bass guitar, but not as many know of him. Part of that is Gary mainly sticks to playing Fusion, where Jaco started playing with R&B artists, then spead out to Joni Mitchel, Pat Methney, then on to Weather Report. So lots of different types of listener became aware of him. Gary can and does play all styles and is a phenomenal soloist. What I hear is he's become frustrated with the recording industry and has moved to Spain and just enjoys playing what he wants when he wants.

Alain Caron is someone I have only recently become aware of. I think his has amazing chops and like his songwriting, but I so far haven't heard anything that I would say puts him in a Jaco leauge as changing the face of bass.

I think there is more to Jaco then just the fretless bass.

He was an incredebible musician and innovator. And some of the amazing stuff he did was done on fretted bass.

SB

Jaco's is a major milestone in the evolution of bass guitar. That said Gary Willis is another innovator of the bass guitar, but not as many know of him. Part of that is Gary mainly sticks to playing Fusion, where Jaco started playing with R&B artists, then spead out to Joni Mitchel, Pat Methney, then on to Weather Report. So lots of different types of listener became aware of him. Gary can and does play all styles and is a phenomenal soloist. What I hear is he's become frustrated with the recording industry and has moved to Spain and just enjoys playing what he wants when he wants.

Alain Caron is someone I have only recently become aware of. I think his has amazing chops and like his songwriting, but I so far haven't heard anything that I would say puts him in a Jaco leauge as changing the face of bass.

I didn't know that Gary moved to Spain.
I had the chance to meet him few times,heard me play and I had the chance to sit with him for a lesson. He is an incredible player and person. I think he is the closest to Jaco's genius as far as I know.

SB

Although Willis and Clairon may have flawless technique, even better than Jaco's, and even though they may not have any obvious "Jacoisms," they still can't touch the lyric approach, phrasing, and composing proficiency that Jaco achieved.

Off-Topic, but I was in my Ensemble today, and I can't solo worth **** so my teacher simply said,

"Think like Jaco."

I was like :hmm: "Easier said than done!"

Jaco had a unique voice on the instrument and he was a fantastic technician and composer.

I think most people have become aware that he wasn't really an improvisor. That is, he had a battery of melodic/rhythmic/harmonic devices which he could call up and string together very well...but even he admitted he largely wasn't improvising. I don't think that diminishes his talent all. He was an amazing musician.

To me, Willis nails the fretless sound but adds in that modern groove and bombproof improv skills.

Caron is a terrific player but he's Canadian.

Will

The first name that comes to my mind is Steve Bailey. I think he is quite a bit different than Jaco, but as has been mentioned on this thread, I don't find his compositions as easy to listen to as Jaco's. I do enjoy him very much as a sde man though.

I think that Jaco was a superb player, I'm not a fan of Jeff Berlin, he has great playing ability, but his playing seems a bit cold to me.

Steve Lawson and Michael Manring, they're my favourite two fretless players. They both have a great 'sound', and fantastic melodic lyricism to their playing.

Some players like Jeff Berlin, while they play fretless superbly, they don't have the 'voice or feel' that Jaco, Steve Lawson or Michael Manring seem to have, there's a depth to their playing.

Not jazzy at all, but what about Pino Palladino? His fretless voice in the 80s is still my inspirationn when playing my fretless in a rock setting, although I still think Jaco is a god!

The other bassist that comes to mind is Reed Mathis from the jazz/fusion/improv band Jacob Fred Jazz Oddyssey. The band is a jazz trio (bass/keys/drums) and his bass actually provides the harmony part, although at times (infrequently) he can shred like a rocker. I think of him as the closest to what Jaco was doing (i.e. pushing the boundaries of the bass role in a band) without him sound at all like a Jaco clone! Check out "Self Is Gone" to hear what I'm talking about if you're interested.

Yves Carbonne is another superb fretless player.
I guess he may have too many strings on his basses for some people though.
Have a listen to the Carbonne, Di Piazza, Manring album.

Hey now, let's not overlook Percy Jones!

While I think he is arguably the greatest bassist of all time, I'm not so big on Jaco's original compositions. For me, "Potrait of Tracy" and others are great as etudes, but I never sit down and listen to them just for enjoyment. In fact, I doubt I would need more than one hand to count the number of Jaco originals I would listen to just for the heck of it.



Scott

What do YOU ALL think JACO would be doing RIGHT NOW
if he was STILL ALIVE?

What do YOU ALL think JACO would be doing RIGHT NOW
if he was STILL ALIVE?Debating his legacy online, I'm sure.

What do YOU ALL think JACO would be doing RIGHT NOW
if he was STILL ALIVE?

One half of a dual-bassist assault in one of Les Claypool's splinter all-star side-groups.

With a shaved head and playing a fretted six-string.

Hey, ya never know. :)

While I think he is arguably the greatest bassist of all time, I'm not so big on Jaco's original compositions. For me, "Potrait of Tracy" and others are great as etudes, but I never sit down and listen to them just for enjoyment. In fact, I doubt I would need more than one hand to count the number of Jaco originals I would listen to just for the heck of it.



Scott

I feel the same way about his compositions.

I'm not so sure about the greatest bassplayer of all time though, of his time sure.

I'm not so sure about the greatest bassplayer of all time though, of his time sure.

Hence my qualifier, "arguably". :D



Scott

I was real close to mentioning Richard Bona and Christian McBride. Christian McBride's fretless playing is either underrated or underexposed but he plays it like it's his main instrument. Richard Bona is one of the most talented musicians period. Mark Egan I'm not as familiar with as I should be. I bought an album of his when I was in college but don't remember it having much of an impact on me.

The only reason I didn't mention Richard Bona earlier is because honestly the only time I've heard him play fretless is when he's been covering tunes that Jaco played on. Bona is the man though.

I heard that Egan used to be a bit of a Jaco clone back in the day, I might have to dig up a few of his older recordings to hear this.

I heard that Egan used to be a bit of a Jaco clone back in the day, I might have to dig up a few of his older recordings to hear this.

Don't forget that Jaco was a pioneer in the field of fretless playing. Hence a lot of people who started playing fretless after hearing him, tended to sound like him, until they found their own direction, there was no one else to lead the way.
Kind of like people leaving a factory after work, they all head for the gate, and then disperse on their own journeys.

i abslutely love bona. his musicianship, feel, tone, phrasing, everythign is perfect to me. in regards to fretless playing he does have a very similar approach to jaco though, and yes, plays on a lot of tunes that jaco did originally. still oen of my favorites. steve bailey does his own thing, and does it phenominally. he and manring are the only 2 of the bunch mentioned thus far that write anything memorable to me,although willis has had some catching tunes as well. i still dont think that anyone can reach that same level of brilliance in playign and composing as jaco. just as there might be more technically proficient trumpet or guitar players in the world, you cant touch what miles and jimi did back in the day.

What was great about Jaco was that he coupled that legendary phrasing with ^gasp^ stage presence. No jazz artist was as dynamic as Jaco and was a breath of fresh air indeed. He arguably singlehandedly brought in a whole new audience to the realm of jazz. I mean here's a dude doing backflips off his amp while playing the bass (to say the least.) On top of it all he's one of the most impressive musicians of the 20th century. An elite list and a bassist to boot!

Caron is a terrific player but he's Canadian.

Will


HAHAHAHA! I Love it. Don't worry, the Canadians can't/won't really fight back.:hiding:

Kind of like people leaving a factory after work, they all head for the gate, and then disperse on their own journeys.

I'm not sure why, but that brought the tune "My Father's Shoes" by Level 42 into my head, probably something to do with the factory whistle. That said, I do see your point!

Jaco had a unique voice on the instrument and he was a fantastic technician and composer.

I think most people have become aware that he wasn't really an improvisor. That is, he had a battery of melodic/rhythmic/harmonic devices which he could call up and string together very well...but even he admitted he largely wasn't improvising. I don't think that diminishes his talent all. He was an amazing musician.

To me, Willis nails the fretless sound but adds in that modern groove and bombproof improv skills.

Caron is a terrific player but he's Canadian.

Will


i do see that in Jaco's later career but not so much in his earlier stuff, but maybe i havnt gotten deep enough into it yet.

its funny i have this album with him and the headhunters, (Paul Jackson broke his arm so Herbie called Jaco to fill in) he throws in so many lines from his tunes, leven ones he hadnt written at the time.

real funny about the Canadians :)


Dave

Can't believe Percy Jones has only been mentioned once!

Hardly a Jaco clone IIRC, he was a contemporary of Jaco's, if not played fretless before him. I love that his lines are a bit more angular, and his approach to harmonics is different.

Having said all that, my approach is much more guided by upright players; primarily Mingus and Paul Chambers.

Now, to paraphrase Jaco, the future of Fretless Bass is going to go back outside and have another coffee and La Gloria Cubana! LOL :p



:hiding: