I'm thinking about this for some time.

AFAIK sprinters(I mean the fast guys running 100m etc.) have special training methods to build speed. It is one of the athleticism race which needs every milliseconds, so I'm sure they are pushing the limits.

I wonder if it is possible to use their approach for increasing finger speed in bass playing.

The second question is: if it is possible, does anyone knows how sprinters(athlets) are training, are there any book etc. explaining what they are doing and why.

Sprinters need to get strong. Musicians need to be precise. So no.

one thing that's worked for me is just work on one string at a time .. 3 or 4 fingers .. back and forth .. once one speed is down .. increase it... use a metrodome ..

right now my left hand is actually faster than my right sometimes.. or they're just not always in sync .. that's what I need to work on.

Budda rope. There is a thread discussing it somewhere so I suggest checking that out first. Bill Dickens using a strength building technique in his instructionals connected to the use of his "Budda Rope". The approach is very similar to athletic training although more like swinging two bats before you take to the plate. Check it out as it may be one of the strategies you could employ in this type of pure physical development.

Yes I know Buddha rope and I'm using something similar while practicing.

I don't agree with sprinters not beeing precise. Correct me if I'm wrong but sprinters are working precisely on every step they make while running (the angle of their body when they are starting the race, at which step they should be full vertical, how much should be their step distance, etc.). So they are not just running like a fool but it's really scientific and very precise sport. That's why I asked this. It is related with speed and precision (read dexterity).

My concern was: OK to build strength is necessary but not all. The timing, the precision(see above) so the dexterity should also be worked on. I wonder what sprinters are doing, how frequently, in which order. They are working with weights but I'm curious about other trainings they are doing.

Of course sprinters need to be precise but mostly, they need to build large muscles. You don't need strength at all to play bass. If you can wiggle your fingers, you can play. All you need to do from there is control them. I watched the Buddha rope thing and I don't see the point.

I watched the Buddha rope thing and I don't see the point.
And you can play like Bill Dickens too, right? Because that's a fairly major point when I'm weighing you opinion against his.

I think there's a pretty good parallel between sprinting and playing fast. While sprinters may need more strength than a bassist, they do also need to be fast. My guess is that the biggest part of training for speed is just going really fast with proper rest periods. I am not a sprinter, of course.

EDIT: It looks like sprinters practice technique at a slow speed and then speed it up (that sounds familiar). They also use assistance techniques such as being towed (dangerous) or running downhill to gain the coordination needed to move up to a speed slightly above their best. Obviously we can't tow our fingers, so we do the best we can. But it seems to boil down to getting the metronome out and working it up very slowly, just like it always has.

Of course sprinters need to be precise but mostly, they need to build large muscles. You don't need strength at all to play bass. If you can wiggle your fingers, you can play. All you need to do from there is control them. I watched the Buddha rope thing and I don't see the point.


Actually sprinters aren't trying to build large muscles at all, they are trying to build lean muscle. You should check out anyone from Baylor University, especially Jeremy Wariner. Not much bigger than your average dude. He's world and olympic champ in the 400, and runs the 100 and 200 wicked fast too. Anyways, I think the only thing that you can get from looking at sprinters for playing faster bass licks is practice. They do it everyday, so should we. They don't practice fast every day, and sometimes they have short practice days, so should we. Sometimes, if the work out isn't going well, or they are feeling really tired, they just change the workout for the day, we should too. Don't practice something because you "should" do what you feel is right for that day. There's nothing worse than playing unmotivated music, or practicing unmotivated.

You don't need strength to play bass? I think that is probably a fairly incorrect statement. As you play you build up strength and endurance in your hands. It's not just wiggling your fingers.

You're right it isn't the same. Wiggling is random. Playing is precise, but you need as much strength for both. Have you actually stopped to think how much force it takes to pluck a string? A baby can do it. Playing 16th notes at 200bpm requires extraordinary precision, not strength.

To Lemur, no, I can't play like Dickens and it's not something I aspire to. I believe in hearing the note's pitch and controlling ringing open strings. Why the rope does good for some people is because they actually do something with their instruments for 40 minutes every day.

For the same skill, a stronger sprinters will be better. It's a sport, a competition. First guy in wins. Music is an art form. There's no first nor last. Everybody needs to be at the same place at once. Completely different.

I think the only thing that you can get from looking at sprinters for playing faster bass licks is practice.

Absolutely.

Sprinters train for explosive power. Besides weight training, they do lots of plyometrics. There are also specific and precise drills for footspeed. So can you train like a sprinter to be a faster bassist? yes and no. You don't need lots of strength traing to play the bass faster. But if you approach you're playing in a logical, organized, methodical way, you will get faster. How? I don't know. Speed isn't my main goal, but if there's something I can't play fast enough, I play it super slow until I can play it with the very least amount of motion. Then I go up 4 clicks on the metronome every day, till I can play it a little faster than I need too(drummer protection)haha
Good luck

Not every one can be a sprinter the same as not all player can play fast. Talk to trainer and you will hear about fast-twitch muscles versus slow twitch. Some people have more fast twitch muscles and yes their they train differently. People with lots of slow-twitch are usually weight lifters, football linemen, etc.

As for music some people just can't move their fingers as fast as others. They have to work on different technique usually left hand techniques to get more notes out. Others just develop a style that doesn't need speed. Which means they are usually more musical.

I can't find it now, but John Petrucci has an excercise based on this concept. (He says he got the idea from sprinting excercises he used to do while playing soccer in high school.)

If I remember correctly, you take a simple pattern and play it as quarter notes for a couple of measures, then as 16th for a couple of measures, then back to quarters, etc, over and over.


| ----------------|----------------|----------------|---------------- |
|.----------------|----------------|----------------|----------------.|
|.----------------|----------------|----------------|----------------.|
| 3---5---6---5---|3---5---6---5---|3565356535653565|3565356535653565 |


Something like that.

To Lemur, no, I can't play like Dickens and it's not something I aspire to. I believe in hearing the note's pitch and controlling ringing open strings. Why the rope does good for some people is because they actually do something with their instruments for 40 minutes every day.
In that case, I bow to your superior speed-training experience.

Im acually a sprinter on the high school track team . We do alot of the same thigns everyday for repitition . We concentrate on not wasting enerygy by tensing up arms , hands, ect. Thats why when you see an Olympic track athlete , their face is flopping around. Everyone , like in bass playing , develops their own techniques that they are comfortable with. I hope this helped.

In that case, I bow to your superior speed-training experience.

Please, get back on your feet. I was being a bit sarcastic because while Dickens plays fast, he's also very sloppy. Take the rope off and practice muting open strings at the same time. It's more work but it pays off in the long term.

For fingerstyle, just do the usual "metronome up gradually", but before even using a metronome, learn to mute the string you just played with the next finger as fast as possible. You can only play as fast as your finger is back on the string. And you get a cleaner sound as a benefit.

Since people like the Big Name stamp of approval, here's some thoughts on strength, as well as other things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_oBJlE5qNc

Since people like the Big Name stamp of approval, here's some thoughts on strength, as well as other things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_oBJlE5qNc

You beat me to it :D

My take is that the stabilizing muscles in your hands need to gain strength moreso than the flexors. I've noticed that the muscle which pulls my pinky to the side has grown quite a bit since I started playing the bass, and is larger on my fretting hand than on my plucking hand. Clearly it's doing something that requires strength, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that other muscles are doing the same and could benefit from a workout.

I really don't see how sprinters have ended up as a topic on a bass forum. I mean there isn't even an analogy you could draw from it.

You want speed you do it the same way as every other bass player who wants speed. You set your metrenome slow. You record yourself playing a scale a line one of those spider excercises what ever

Once you have satisfied certain criteria. Timing, tone, finger balance, or whatever criteria you have set you increase the BPM on the meteronome. You repeat this until the metrenome is as fast a possible. This takes one hell of a long time to do. But thats how you build speed. You don't try and play as fast as you can for as long as you can or you'll end up sounding like some high school metal wanna be on you tube.

Here's a link (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=287929) to an excercise the wise ed fuqua gave me to help me get better balance of tone between fingers. It serves more functions than that though and can be used as an excerscise to build speed as well.


Speed is not about strength. Bass playing is not about strength. Yes your hand does build some muscle from being used so much. Bass playing is about as was said precision and dexterity. Building the msucles in your hand shouldn't even be thought about. That will come naturally as a side effect from doing proper excersises for building speed. Concentrate on the excersizes not building muscle. You don't need one of those hand squeezer dealys to become a better bass player or any other sort of exercsize. You need to play bass to be a better bass player. Playing the bass is your workout.

use a metrodome ..

alright... i'm in downtown Minneapolis... staring at the home of the twins and Vikings...now what???
:hiding:

The sprinter analogy just doesn't work. Sprinters go for huge bursts of speed within a short time. How is that gonna help you play long sets? I'd say playing bass is more like long distance running. You keep a well maintained, consistent pace and adjust your speed accordingly.

Easiest way to develop speed is to do the exercises (scales, permutations, whatever) over and over and gradually increase the speed on your metronome. Speed without dexterity or precision is kind of pointless. I'm not much of a fast player, but I'm sure most people can vouch for that. Sure the exercises get boring, but in my case I got bored doing them when I would overload myself practicing them. If you do a little each session and each day it'll be less boring. Or try to make a game to it. Or sing along (which you should be doing anyway to develop the ear.)

You're right it isn't the same. Wiggling is random. Playing is precise, but you need as much strength for both. Have you actually stopped to think how much force it takes to pluck a string? A baby can do it. Playing 16th notes at 200bpm requires extraordinary precision, not strength.


It's not something that a baby would be able to do for any period of time because it requires conditioning. Conditioning of your muscles allows you to play longer, smoother i.e. more control/coordination, and faster for a longer period of time.

That's exactly my point, Phil. It's not strength that's needed but motor skills.

i cant beleive noone has mentioned one of the most important aspects...playing lightly!

on your fingerboard hand (i wont point out lefties and righties in particular :) make sure youre only using as much force as you need to keep the string on the fret. sounds like a very simple principle but most people press too hard. its extremely important to get your touch sorted in practice, as onstage youll probably press even harder when youre under the pressure.

and on the other hand make sure to lighten up your touch compared to what you normally play. you cant keep up exerting full force plucking the strings when pulling off fast notes for long. youll wear yourself out, your fingers will sieze and your tone will be lost

strength is important to a bass player but if youre using all your strength to play, youre using too much! forcing out your notes sounds and feels awkward, and you cant keep it up.

and at the end of the day set some realistic goals. not everyone can play at the tempo some other guys can, we all have different bodies and genetic dispositions in our muscles.

lastly, just keep practicing. if youve done the best you can, you should be happy

I couldn't agree with you more J. Years ago, it took me a long time to realize that playing the strings hard will get you nowhere fast. So, when I would practice 16th note runs at fast tempos, I learned to develop two different things which would ultimately allow me to overcome this obstacle....

1) As you said, playing each note as even as possible and just hard enough to pronounce the notes clearly :cool:

2) Also, I found that keeping your picking fingers from spreading too far apart will help to develop clean and consistent speed :cool:

Btw, I never used a metronome. It always seemed to get in the way. Believe me , I discovered that way before I ever met Jeff Berlin. Of course, if you feel comfortable with a metronome it's all good ;) .

As someone who spent 10+ years racing bicycles, I'm a bit famliar with many training concepts for strength, speed, and endurance. Some of the same concepts apply to playing the bass. The only way to go fast is to practice going fast, but it can NEVER be at the cost of precision. Muscle strength is a component to the equation, but increasing it can NEVER be at the cost of precision (sound familiar?). Having good strength can certainly help with control, when you are working well below your limits (in this case, playing lightly). Strength also helps with endurance. For example, if you can lift 1000 lbs. once, lifting 100 lbs. is easy and you can do it many times. However, if 200 lbs. is your one-time limit, 100 lbs. is going to be a challenge pretty quickly. Above all else, NEVER sacrifice proper technique while trying to improve strength and speed.

Start using 3 fingers, it will help increase your speed, for the music i play i dont really need to but... im just being a lazy ass, really i should get my 3 fingers in sync.

I do sprinting and long/triple jump i can think of couple things that might help

1.) When sprinting your supposed to run on your toes because your lighter. Same goes for bass the lighter the touch the faster you play.

2.) Its all about technique. I'm 5'5 and i can long jump over 18 feet. In bass just because your physically stronger doesn't mean your faster or better.

3.) When training for an event like the 100m dash in practice you always do longer events(i.e. 200m, 400m....). So practice playing slower but be able to keep up the speed for a longer amount of time.


Technique is the key and the way to get the best technique is by starting slow and getting faster and fast. Taking everything step by step.