David - Thanks for joining us.

I wonder if you could share some of your thoughts about general posture when standing and playing with the German bow.

I've had lots of teachers over the years, and each one had a very different take on how to use you body when "getting around" the instrument.

Most of those teachers were french bow players, and I've only recently realized how much of an impact playing with a different bow actually has on your playing position.

What I'm wrestling with right now: I'm trying to stop hunching or slouching over the front of the bass. I developed a habit of looking at the hair/string contact point, and listening to the top of the bass while trying to "slow bow" as close to the bridge as I can. I believe this is causing some problems in my playing, and may cause some back problems, as well.

I know Gary Karr takes a stance where the bass leans forward instead of backward when playing in high registers. This is one solution which might help me, but I'm still undecided. It seems like the rotational angle of the bass (as it pivots on the end pin) is also a critical point. I feel better when I'm more "behind" the bass, I know alot of German players go nearer to being "next to" the bass. I've had teachers (good players) who advocated actively pivoting the bass depending on what string and register you're playing on. I'm also still experimenting with a sort of "crouch" or "squat" kind of motion for leaning the bass backwards (anti-Gary Karr) for accessing the upper register. This is something that seems more acceptible amongst French players, I think.

Final thought: my current teacher (German bow) has tolld me I should imagine the top of the bass to extend on a plane in every direction, and my face isn't allowed to cross that plane. It seems like good advice, but I'm having trouble putting it into practice.

Any thoughts you could add to this are appreciated - I apologize for the long, rambling post.

Stan - great question. I will probably post a "PS" to this as I am online for a few minutes but wanted to share an immediate thought. Standing with the Bass is a two part process - 1/ with the bass at rest, no bow and just standing 2/ in action with bow and left hand playing. If you cannot achieve step 1 without any discomfort of tension, step 2 will be difficult. I know that sounds pedantic,but it's true and we all face this fact and break it down to those terms before anything else can be solved in the muscle stress realm. Now while in step 1, my two cents is that a player should have freedom of all arm motion as well as the ability to actually move the instrument to a degree where the lower strings or the upper strings are closer or further away from the center of your body. Then, when adding the bow and left hand, I use that motion to aid in string crossings and bow changes. That motion I am talking about - tilting the bass with lower or upper strings closer or further away from the center of the body - is used in opposite motion to the direction of the bow change or string crossing. This is a technique violinists and violists use all the time but in much smaller increments. Combining Karr's excellent concepts of leaning the bass forward (look at the bass from the side and you can clearly see that without tilting the bass forward, shifting back from thumb position to half actually fights against gravity in two ways)If you consider how much freedom you will gain by working through these challenges and achieving the goal of freedom of motion while standing without hunching over, your choice to sit or stand will ultimately made over the issue of stamina more than anything else. German Bow ultimatley gives more freedom and less tension to the elbow due to the lower postion when playing German Bow. That may be helping your overall body tension when it comes to comparing french to german bow techniques but is most likely marking a stress or tension challenge you may have while standing.
The payback against german bow technique comes in swift string changes or bow to pizz passages - as a german bow player I will be the first to admit that L'Histoire is next to impossible to play as a german bow player.
(Valse - the pizz-bow movement that is)Therefore, you are not out of the woods with respect to tension while playing when using German Bow.
I sure hope these ideas are helpful and once again wish you the best in the spirit of the brotherhood of the Bass.
cheers,
David Ruby

Two more cents: One thing that I learned from Streicher was his practice of lowering the bass to allow the left arm more freedom to get around the instrument easily. This meant that you avoided pinching nerves in your armpit on the shoulder of the instrument when in higher thumb position (especially if you didn't crouch!). You also gain more weight and strength from having your shoulder in line or above your hand on the string for added endurance. I have added the practice of turning the bass inwards to allow even more acess to the higher positions as well. If you model the bass in a CAD program, you will see that thumb position on the G string is further away from the center of your body unless the bass is turned inwards rather than simply leaned backwards. Turning the bass inwards also helps achieve perpendicular angles of the bow to the string, frog to tip. I agree with your practice of monitoring the bow to string contact - Heifetz did that all the time - why shouldn't we! Crouching to do so might not be the best idea though and your teacher has given you a good guideline to get out of the habit.
I hope these two posts add some new dialogue to the mix for you. Let me know your thoughts in any case.
cheers,
David Ruby

This is a good conversation, and fits in well with what I need to focus on now.

Last night (I get to practice for about an hour or two at night after the kids go to bed) I spent some time just "balancing" the bass (without the bow, without playing). I tried to remind myself of different ways to pivot the bass on its endpin (like you said, "tilt it more inward", then the opposite way to access the E-string). Very eye-opening: I found out how much simpler it is to let the bass support itself when it stands nearly straight up, or even leaning a little forward (especially when shifting from high to low positions, as you mentioned in your previous post)

Problems I encountered:
Getting the bow down to the bridge. i have relatively short arms, so lowering the bass makes it impossible to access all of the range I need with the bow without either slouching over the shoulder or squatting (sort of like a horse riding stance) to actually lower my shoulders. WHen the bass is up slightly higher, however, it makes reaching the upper register (the end of the fingerboard and off-the -board harmonics) impossible to reach without leaning the bass back (sort of like a cellist, or what I think Rabbath does). Leaning back like this causes a very awkward transition, however - the bass has to pivot back "inwards" as well as tipping back up towards center when shifting back to lower positions.

My strategy is to start using a mirror more, to catch myself leaning forward. And, as far as compromises go, it's much more important to me to be able to reach all the way to the bridge with the bow than it is to play very high (so, I think I'll stay away from setting the endpin lower). We'll see. This is a problem I would really like to work out over the course of this year.

Thanks for your thoughts, and I'd appreciate hearing from anyone else on this topic, too . . .

David -

I just reread your post and I think I may have misunderstood it. When you say "his practice of lowering the bass", were you referring to lowering the endpin, or leaning the bass back?

Hey Stan - I definitely meant lowering the endpin. An idea - One colleague I know experimented, with the aid of a physical therapist, using a footstool for the left foot while standing on the right. It does help quite a bit with releasing tension in the lower back while allowing you freedom to reach around the bass to the higher positions especially with the end pin lowered - sorry for not clarifying that. Streicher used the left foot with the heel down and toes up to support the back of the bass (that's how low he had the endpin). Let me know how the experimenting goes -I can relate to the time you schedule to practice - raising four boys in this house.
You go guy!
David Ruby

Hi David,
First off, welcome to talkbass and thank you for donating your wisdom. I wanted to address a point you made in your PS section to this thread. I am pirmarily a Jazz basisst but I do use the bow for studio work and home practice all the time. My main routine daily consists of the "Mighty twenty" with all major and minor sacles and then the same with diminished scales. I play German bow but dopn't know what your special technique is. I have and used the zimmerman book to work in string crossings. I have found recently that lowering my end pin (I stand) a little has greatly increased the relaxation and focus of my left hand with very little sacrifice of technique in the right. Is this what you are suggesting?? or rather - can you comment on this more?? It feels easier to transition between half and thumb position with my bass a little higher - but the left hand over all is much better when the bass is lower. I play gigs almost every night and practice everyday so I do have occasional strain and pain in my hands but lowering my bass made that dissapear so I am intrigued... can you tell me more?

I always thought, that the position Streicher holds the bass is only workable for short people. The support with the toes to avoid pivoting of the bass requires the endpin to be mostly in. If I do that, its more the end of the scroll on eye level then the end of the fingerboard. The bow is over the fingerboard, not between bridge and board (I am 1,86m): Not a way to play the bass. Usually I play on a stool and use a position like a cello, no problems there. If I have to play standing up, its more the side of the bass then the back leaning against my body, that way the bass is preventend from pivoting on its own with an extended endpin and I can stand with my weight evenly distributed on both legs. To play the E string, I have to turn the bass somewhat.
I never found a standing posture I was really comfortable with. I did try to use a guitar foot rest, that works somewhat in the direction of Streichers toe hold, but using more your knee to prevent the bass from turning. That worked pretty well for short time playing, but I had problems when playing a little longer. An other thing I tried was standing behind the bass and leaning it against me with the curve at start of scroll on my shoulder. That resulted in a secure bass hold, but still the bridge to low for bowing (like with the toe support) and problems with the thumb playing half position.
I am a strong advocat of playing on a high stool.

wow - ok I must have been really mis-informed. I play standing up and the the nut is just above or direcectly at my eye-brows depending on which bass I am using. I had no idea you all meant having it so low that the actual scroll part is at your eyes. I lowered a little and thats why I wrote the initial post but how I just described it above is the result of my lowering the Bass a little. I cant play with it any lower - but I have found that at that height there is very little pivoting of the bass -

In my experience the most common height is with the nut around eyebrow height. There are many ways that work well. Some play with the bass higher than that, one was the late Corin Long who was an excellent german bow player. The same goes for some of the quite excellent polish players I have worked with.

I would argu that it depends on the size and shape of the particular instrument, the size and shape of the particular player and the music in question.

kindest
Kjetil Laukholm

Hey Dave I am a bassist who is getting ready to head to college for music performance. I have been playing with a german bow for eight months. I was rushed to learn an audition piece so i skipped alot of technique. I was wondering what your thoughts on how to get a quality sound out of an instrument. Like is it better to stand or sit. I feel more stable sitting. but when i sit i tend to play closer to the bridge let me know what your thoughts are. let me know if you have any ideas. Thanks.

Michael chaffin