If I were to get a fretless with the marks ya know but no frets would it be harder to play. I mean I don't know if I naturally use the frets as a "guide" but since ur finger goves right behind it kinda well maybe u do b/c you can feel it. I think a fretless would be cool cuz it will give the stand up bass sound but is it hard to play?

Oh, of course not. Just put your fingers where you want, and it'll all be the same. ;) :D

Also, this should be in "technique," I believe.
This really is more of a question on which is harder to grasp the technique of, and not a discussion of basses.

Well

I play the upright bass, and I do think it would be a little harder. I don't play bass guitar, but your fingers may be a little lost at first. If it has markers, then maybe it won't be so bad. I know that when i started playing upright I used colored electrical tape so I could at least visualize where my fingers go.

On the other hand, it would be easier when you were out of tune. You could just move your fingers and then you wouldn't think about the fact that it wasn't the right fret.

I remember Christian McBride saying that he found fretless bass guitar more of a challenge than upright, as there are fewer physical cues to orient yourself on the neck. I woudn't say it's harder to play, but it does require that you spend a good deal of hours developing the necessary "muscle memory" to familiarize yourself with the positions. If you have lines, the positions are less of a problem, but you still have to deal with intonation issues, as a simple roll of the fingertip will move you off pitch.

Originally posted by bassy18

On the other hand, it would be easier when you were out of tune. You could just move your fingers and then you wouldn't think about the fact that it wasn't the right fret.

you see, though, that by the time you realize you're out, it's too late.

fretless is substantially more difficult to gain proficiency with than fretted. it doesn't take too many out notes to totally ruin a song, and chances are, without a lot of woodshedding with a tuner, you're going to be out all the time, lines or no.

Originally posted by Davygravy3
If I were to get a fretless with the marks ya know but no frets would it be harder to play. I mean I don't know if I naturally use the frets as a "guide" but since ur finger goves right behind it kinda well maybe u do b/c you can feel it. I think a fretless would be cool cuz it will give the stand up bass sound but is it hard to play?

If you play all the time without looking at the fretboard, and you have a good ear (can tell if your pitch is sharp/flat) then its not a whole heap harder.

It really depends, if youre looking at your hands, it wont be super hard cause theres fret markers. But if your reading music and arent looking down much, if at all, it may take a bit to get used to. But fretless isnt really hard its just a new challenge, that is, its like when you started and all the notes you played farted, you had to move your finger a bit and it stopped, with fretless youre sharp or flat and you move your finger a bit to correct the pitch.

Originally posted by john turner


you see, though, that by the time you realize you're out, it's too late.

fretless is substantially more difficult to gain proficiency with than fretted. it doesn't take too many out notes to totally ruin a song, and chances are, without a lot of woodshedding with a tuner, you're going to be out all the time, lines or no.

I agree with John - the number of times I've heard fretless bass players who ruin the song/performance with bad intonation - people have asked me as they know I'm a bass player and say things like :"what was wrong with the bass player it sounded awful!!" A few times I've been diplomatic and said that fretless bass has a different aound and is very hard to play! :rolleyes:

But there is a lot more discipline required - for example, if you are playing fretted then it is no harder to play up an octave - it's all the same fingering etc. But on fretless, you have to be so much more precise when playing higher notes where the pitch is all too evident!!

Yes you have to have discipline to play fretless, but the rewards are awesome! I just started playing it and for me its coming naturally, I'm not having a tough time adjusting to it. It varies from person to person. So far I'm practicing with this thing everyday and I get a lil better each day, granted I'll never be a master at fretless but hey, its fun and it sounds good for the most part!

I actually was "forced" to play the fretless at band practice last night, and being on the spot, I did really good. Sometimes pressure is a good thing! :eek:

Because I learned originally on a fretless bass, I find playing fretted much more difficult than fretless. I am, however, an unusual case. Most people switching from fretted to fretless quickly discover how sloppy their technique was on a fretted.

The advantage is that if you switch between regularly, you will find your technique improving on fretted, though you may find you want to play the bass with the speedbumbs less.

FF

i AGREE. my fretted bass playin is slowing changing for the better! try fretless u'll enjoy it and learn more.

If you do get a fretless, make sure you DON'T get one on which the frets have been ground down. I have a Warwick fretless Fortress which sounds great now, but I can see the frets ultimately outliving the neck, resulting in fretbuzz. In fact, I already have a tiny bit of fretbuzz toward the top of the neck, but it's only noticeable to me.

The main problem I see with fretless is the mindset:

1) It's very easy to be intimidated by it and to try to "overthink" your playing. If you worry too much about finger placement, your fingers will be stiff and the playing will suck. Just relax and play, basically. If you've played a fretted long enough, you're fingers are pretty much already trained to proper spreads, placement, etc. The trick is to alter it so that your fingers are placed where the frets would be instead of between the frets.

2) One common problem is that some people who play fretless play it as if it were fretted from a style standpoint. In other words, instead of sliding from one note to the next, they merely place their fingers on the neck as if it were fretted. If you want that fretless effect, let your fingers move around the neck more freely. Stiff fingers definitely need not apply.

You better not get a budget-o-frettless bass. Intonation can become a nightmare. You want to make sure it sounds good and in tune before you start playing.

Going back to fretted will be a breeze

There are at least three very nice sub-$500 fretlesses available here.

IMO playing fretless like a fretted is a good thing. An overuse of slides can get old. Strive for precision. Then, when you do use the occasional slide it's that much more special.

I'm looking into getting a fretless bass, but it scares the heck outta me. I know for a fact my technique is sloppy. What I don't know is whether or not a fretless will help improve my technique or just anger me to the point of insanity.

Originally posted by Da5id HeX
I'm looking into getting a fretless bass, but it scares the heck outta me. I know for a fact my technique is sloppy. What I don't know is whether or not a fretless will help improve my technique or just anger me to the point of insanity.

You should be able to improve your fretted technique without using a fretless. I think you'll find that any work you do on technique will make you a better bass player, fretted or fretless.

Work on the fretted technique, it'll help when you shift to fretless.

FF

Originally posted by Davygravy3
If I were to get a fretless with the marks ya know but no frets would it be harder to play?

Yes.

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
There are at least three very nice sub-$500 fretlesses available here.

How about those that are free. I recently acquired a Yamaha BB200F, needs a bit of work, but I can't wait to get a chance to plug it in to hear it. Plays fairly well and is rather comfortable. This is something I've wanted to try for a while. Having played only fretted basses, and a little dabbling on upright when I could get my hands on one, it steel feels as "natural" as a fretted, but with a new twist.

Originally posted by Fretless Friday


You should be able to improve your fretted technique without using a fretless. I think you'll find that any work you do on technique will make you a better bass player, fretted or fretless.

Work on the fretted technique, it'll help when you shift to fretless.

FF

I am not sure about that, I play frettless exclusively and I find that even the easiest tune can be a challenge! A simple C, g, G, C country bass line will be a nightmare on a frettless if your chops are not up to par. I am forced to practice at least everyday just to keep up, I am talking simple major and minor scales here! There is little room for error specially if you like to get fancy once in a while (like I do :D ).

This has made me a better player and musician. The secret is to make it sound like a fretted (ie no slides etc) so that you can play all type of songs.

Whenever I play a fretted now I feel like I am cheating, it is like going on a picknic on a weekday.

Sure, this can be achived with a fretted bass but you are going to find very few bad bassist that play a frettless ;)

Originally posted by Samie

Sure, this can be achived with a fretted bass but you are going to find very few bad bassist that play a frettless ;)

Actually as I mentioned on my previous post in this thread - there are quite a few fretless players whose "intonationally-challenged" playing has ruined performances I've heard. Bad intonation stands out like a sore thumb on fretless and it's much easier to make mistakes that will get you noticed!! ;)

Fretted players have it much easier as you say and you can "get away" with more sloppy playing - but if you are a less than dedicated player on fretless, you will get noticed for the wrong reasons!! But there are plenty of lazy players with bad ears for intonation!! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Actually as I mentioned on my previous post in this thread - there are quite a few fretless players whose "intonationally-challenged" playing has ruined performances I've heard. Bad intonation stands out like a sore thumb on fretless and it's much easier to make mistakes that will get you noticed!! ;)

Fretted players have it much easier as you say and you can "get away" with more sloppy playing - but if you are a less than dedicated player on fretless, you will get noticed for the wrong reasons!! But there are plenty of lazy players with bad ears for intonation!! :rolleyes:

I totally agree. I have been told that my intonation is excellent (though I can occasionally hit a sour note too!) Alot of people who think they can effortlessly play my fretless because it "has lines to show me where to put my fingers" are corrected quickly.

I do consider myself a dedicated fretless player, and so far there is nothing I can't play fretless that I can fretted. I find frets annoying, frankly.

:D

FF

Originally posted by Fretless Friday

.... I find frets annoying, frankly.

:D

FF

...and kind of boring. Sure you can work on fancy tap, pull, slap, hamer tecnique but when it comes to just notes a fretted bass has limited expresión capabilities.

The violin (via the Double Bass) is the root instrument for the electric bass, not the guitar. So electric basses should be frettless I guess. :rolleyes:

I agree with you guys, not for the faint at heart.

It was harder for me initially, but what I did was play nothing but fretless for 2 months - then it was like old hat. Not sure I would recommend that for everyone, but it worked for me.

On another note, I am not at all into fret lines... they make me look at my fingering too much.

playing upright is definitely a lot harder than a fretless bass, mainly because of string tension and the pressure it puts on your hand...but to play a fretless all you need is muscle memory. Go from first position to the note that you want, and do it many times, your brain will start to get the hang of it, and soon you will have it down. Do this for every note on the fretboard and soon you wont even notice that the frets arent there.

I started out playing fretless bass (4-string) in 1986 and decided that for the various styles I play, a fretted bass would provide a more appropriate feel, i.e., more rhythmic and stronger impact. In 1996 bought a Carvin LB-75 (5-string) and am very happy with it (after much experimentation with strings and set-up).

It was and still is a challenge to play because of the frets. One thing that is very different is that you can easily get a fret buzz if the finger is not placed firmly onto the fingerboard behind the fret.

Like everyone's said already - it's harder to play in tune. And you have to keep your game up. If you leave it for a while and come back, you'll probably find that your tuning's gone slack.

However, with fretless, your technique makes much more of a difference than with fretted bass. This is a good thing, really, because it means you have more direct control over your sound with your hands. But it also does mean that you have to get your technique sorted to get the sound you want, because the way you pluck the string - for example, is so much more critical. Especially if you're after mwah.

I have switched to playing fretless exclusively almost 3 months back, and for me, biggest challenge was to find a way to NOT get mwah when I don't want it. We play quite a few songs where mwah is not needed or would sound weird. I find that intonation is not an issue up to about the 12th fret. Beyond that, it's a real challenge.

As with anything else, practice makes perfect. I put in about 2 hours a day, plus 3 band practices and one 3-hour gig a week. I am now at a stage where I don't bother to look at the fingerboard when I play unless I am doing a big position change very quickly.

Is fretless harder?


Yes.

Is fretless harder? Yes, but only until you get the intonation figured out, then in my opinion it's a lot easier. It took me 3 months of constant playing to really know where my intonation was. It's been second nature to me for a lot of years, I still miss occasionally but it's pretty rare.

There are folks around here who have a tough time with their fretless intonation and then assume that since they have difficulties then nobody else can stay in tune either. A silly assumption of course, it's all a matter of practice. If you switch back and forth between fretted and fretless you'll have a tougher time since fretted doesn't require the precision and any sloppiness you have will quickly return. There are advantages to specialization! Once you figure it out you'll find fretless has a number of advantages besides tone. I think they are faster playing because you don't have the 'neck drag' of the frets slowing you down. Plus they have significantly less string tension to fight, which is a real problem particularly with the multi-string monsters I play. So imho they sound better, play faster and are easier on your hands. It's worth the extra practice time! :cool:

Originally posted by Fretless12ver
I think they are faster playing because you don't have the 'neck drag' of the frets slowing you down.

Was it Jaco that called them speed-bumps?

For me, I have been playing electric bass for 14 years and dbl bass for 7 years, its easy for me, because i can still move around no problem. Also, if you can play your bass with out looking at your neck, you should be able to play a fretless the same way.

Samie says:
...and kind of boring. Sure you can work on fancy tap, pull, slap, hamer tecnique but when it comes to just notes a fretted bass has limited expresión capabilities.

The violin (via the Double Bass) is the root instrument for the electric bass, not the guitar. So electric basses should be frettless I guess.

I agree with you guys, not for the faint at heart


I say:

I've always been told and tried to keep in mind that it's the archer not the arrow.

Try fretless man they're fun. I wouldn't start bringing it to every gig but mess with it at home play to recordings that you know the key of. get the one with marks. I'm from the any which way school of intonation if it helps you get the notes do it. I can hear a couple of upright guys shuttering as I typed that but I've seen masking tape on your upright necks (I see you jockin me ;) ) Maybe if you are intonated well enough after 5 or 6 months of playing take it to a jam session with friends. and Eventually start trying it out with proffessional level gigs. but take your time get good and comfy with it so you don't have to look at the neck to be in tune. try some ear training :)

Playing in tune is harder at first but gets easier the longer you play. I think it is important to play around with a tuner and just see where the thing really IS in tune. I do that from time to time.

Originally posted by Fretless12ver
There are folks around here who have a tough time with their fretless intonation and then assume that since they have difficulties then nobody else can stay in tune either. A silly assumption of course, it's all a matter of practice. If you switch back and forth between fretted and fretless you'll have a tougher time since fretted doesn't require the precision and any sloppiness you have will quickly return. There are advantages to specialization! Once you figure it out you'll find fretless has a number of advantages besides tone. I think they are faster playing because you don't have the 'neck drag' of the frets slowing you down. Plus they have significantly less string tension to fight, which is a real problem particularly with the multi-string monsters I play. So imho they sound better, play faster and are easier on your hands. It's worth the extra practice time! :cool:

there are also folks around here and at various namm shows that i've heard play who think that their intonation is good when it isn't, including guys who get paid for their playing and have some "cred" in the community. out of tune fretless makes my skin crawl almost as bad as out of tune/key vocals.

i'm interested to hear why frets would slow someone down - if the only thing that comes in contact with the finger tip is the string, what does the fret have to do with it? and what do frets have to do with string tension? that's a function of scale length and string mass/unit length, according to my physics book ;).

by the way, i've been meaning to ask you, do you have any samples of your fretless 12 string work available? i'd be interested to hear the stuff you do. :)

I think when doing long slides, frets slow you down a little. Or at least, get in the way.

As far as tension goes - I assume he means that since there are no frets you can get away with lower tension without clacking?

Originally posted by Samie


The violin (via the Double Bass) is the root instrument for the electric bass, not the guitar. So electric basses should be frettless I guess. :rolleyes:

I agree with you guys, not for the faint at heart.

IIRC although the violin may have always been a fretless instrument, the lower-pitched instruments of that extended family (noting that a double bass is a bass viol not a bass violin) used to have frets made of catgut tied around the neck.

And the electric bass guitar that most of us play is probably more than 50% electric guitar in it's genetic make up, and the rest bass viol.

Regardless of the history though, fretless is much harder to play, and after dabbling without frets I've found that I'm much better at expressing myself on a fretted bass purely because I've got one less thing to worry about. And even with frets in the way, I still use a lot of vibrato and pitch-bending, just guitar style.

Alex

I just caught this...


Originally posted by Samie
The violin (via the Double Bass) is the root instrument for the electric bass, not the guitar.

No, the guitar is the "father" of the electric bass. It has far (far) more in common with the guitar than the double bass, or violin. Just because they share a function, does not mean they share roots.

The simple answer to the question is "yes".

Bassists commonly cite intonation as the main drawback of the fretless, but I'm personally most bothered by the reduction in volume caused by a lack of frets. Metal on wood just doesn't have the same punch as metal on metal.

On the other hand, if you really get into the fretless mindset, your technique can quickly become much more fluid and melodic. It may help to listen to recordings of well-played fretless to hear how other bassists have approached it. Jaco Pastorius is the classic example, but there are many others. Also, plenty of great ideas can be gleaned from the double bass giants like Ray Brown and Charles Mingus -- despite the absence of a common double bass-electric bass ancestry.

Originally posted by F Scotch Tape
Yes.

Yep.

Originally posted by Pacman
Just because they share a function, does not mean they share roots.

What if the tonic's the same, would they then share roots?

Originally posted by jazzbo


What if the tonic's the same, would they then share roots?

Why I aughtta.... :)

Playing fretless is harder, make no mistake about it. I played fretless almost exclusively for ten years and what I discovered is that you really have to depend on your ears a lot more. Make it a point of not looking at you hands when you play, you will be amazed what your ears can do for you. You will also find yourself playing somewhat more consevartive lines on a fretless than a fretted ax as a fretless is really unforgiving of sloppy playing, but it is worth it to take the time to learn. You will find that your playing will improve.

Hmm, is playing fretless harder? Im not really sure since I learned Double bass before I started dabbling on a fretless. But when I did start playing Fretless I felt that it was a bit simpler in the fact that I didnt have to place my finger in the exact spot to get the note. I could put my finger half an inch above where the note would be fretted and still get the same note. And also since I listen for the tone, not feel for the tone it was a bit simpler for me. So if you find your notes by your hand position or fret position it will take some time to get used to. But, if your more of a listener than you should be fine.

PS- Make sure ur first Fretless has the fret marks, it helps alot.

Of course thats only true for the first octave IAMERICOCHRANE, once you get up to octave position you have to be exact, or else you will be out of tune. And generally anywhere on the neck that is true, Based on what you said I can infer that you don't have perfect pitch...if you did then you would notice being half an inch off.

Fretless is harder when you want to stay perfectly in tune and have good intonation on every note, but you also don't need to worry about fret buzz, so you can play with more finesse and all that, also fretless can sound really cool to un-learned people if you are mwah-ing all around the general area of a note without actually hitting it. So I'd say that if you there is definatly more focus that entails with playing fretless, but to non-musicians anything you do is bound to sound cool(gotta love that mwah)

also slap/pop and tapping, on a fretless is much trickier than on a fretted bass...its not impossible but its trickier to get a good sound from.

Originally posted by Wrong Robot
Of course thats only true for the first octave IAMERICOCHRANE, once you get up to octave position you have to be exact, or else you will be out of tune. And generally anywhere on the neck that is true, Based on what you said I can infer that you don't have perfect pitch...if you did then you would notice being half an inch off.

Fretless is harder when you want to stay perfectly in tune and have good intonation on every note, but you also don't need to worry about fret buzz, so you can play with more finesse and all that, also fretless can sound really cool to un-learned people if you are mwah-ing all around the general area of a note without actually hitting it. So I'd say that if you there is definatly more focus that entails with playing fretless, but to non-musicians anything you do is bound to sound cool(gotta love that mwah)

also slap/pop and tapping, on a fretless is much trickier than on a fretted bass...its not impossible but its trickier to get a good sound from.


Well I kinda Exagurated when i said a "half inch" I just meant that your finger placement can be a bit looser than it is on a fretted bass

Does Les Claypool tap on a fretless or does he use a fretted bass for his tapping?

I think Claypool has been known to tap on his fretlesses...but since he primarily plays fretted these days(at least last I heard)

Michael Manring taps on his fretless hyperbass like it's a fretted. Sounds awesome too!

DUH! how could I forget Manring!
he's a god at tapping...especially on fretless.

that said he also slaps on fretless as if it were fretted and it sounds awesome

that said EVERYTHING he does sounds awesome

Yeah I'm in the same boat as this guy, I'm looking at a good deal on a bb200f, and thinking it might help produce a nice tonal range for experimental tool and perfect circle type material. But I'm not to sure on nuances of playing the bugger.

I don't have any natural intonation issues as I play everything I listen to by ear and thus compensate to match tone if I hear something is out of tune even by a fraction. But regardless, is it much harder than just using natural hearing?.. and even though the bb has an emg p p/u does anyone know if fretless has enough to belt out the low freq's loud and clear enough?.. also how do fretless basses handle downtuning?.. as at times I mess around with E flat, D, Drop D, and C tuning.

I was so desperate to get my custom fretless for over a year that I kept imagining what it would be like to play fretless - all the time. NOw that I've had the bass for about 8 months I feel like I'm getting to grips with it but I think you definitely have to be 'on it' all the time when you play - much more so than a fretted - because like others have said here - you need to listen to every note you play, make it in tune and also your picking has to be spot on as well.

When you take all this into consideration it makes me think just how good Jaco's technique was - and obviously there are a ton of other brilliant fretless guys about now - but it really does make a you a 'man amongst the boys' if you can totally nail stuff on fretless. The reason I say this is becasue there are ANY short cuts with a fretless - this is what pisses me off about some people buying a Jaco Fender Jazz and hoping that they will suddenly sound like Jaco because of the bass they play - you won't! Because it's pretty much all in the fingers.

Playing fretless is harder but after wood-shedding on freless then going back to fretted is weird because everything you do will be that much tigheter sounding - it really does require more effort - and IMO there's nothing wrong with fret markers - whatever helps you sty in tune is what I say...

i personally have an easier time learning how to play in tune on basses with no fretlines..i've owned lined and unlined, and found that i used my eyes instead of my ears with the fretlines.
.02
cheers
d

i personally have an easier time learning how to play in tune on basses with no fretlines..i've owned lined and unlined, and found that i used my eyes instead of my ears with the fretlines.
.02
cheers
d

I agree with this. I am only unsing a defretted washburn at the moment after I got rid of my Cort curbow, I will get another fretless but I needed the money (still do). At first I'd play out of tune (especially chords) but after a while, I seemed to get a hang of it and it actually was being played more then my fretted basses. Something about playing with guitars and not getting any wah (not mwah... wah) while playing with them gives quite a bit of satisfastion.

Yes, fretless is harder. No, it's not inherently better or more expressive. It's just different. It is what it is. I love it myself.