Can someone tell me these scales, i know the minor scale for melodic and harmonic but i dont know the major.. please tell me!

There is no "harmonic major" and "melodic major"; those variations only exist for minor. The major scale is always the same.

i believe there is a harmonic major scale

http://www.angelfire.com/id/bass/harmonicmajor.html

Well, lookit that. Harmonic major. Consistent with harmonic minor, ain't it? I like it.

Hmmm.....that harmonic major thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Why would you put si [raised 5th] in a chord unless if you're doing a secondary dominant? So in the key of C si = G#, which would be involved with a V/vi because G# is a leading tone to A. So it'd be a V6/vi [figure bass 6 not the other 6]

E.g. the reason why we have harmonic minor is so that we can get ti [maj 7] for a V [and still have it sound dominant] in minor. E.g. sol feg would be sol ti re fa if you want a V7.

Ok-here's my disclaimer, i know enough to know that there's always stuff that i don't know. That stuff could very well be why i don't think harmonic major exists.......even though-it'd be shocking that they never taught us that in a conservatory thus far.

Well, lookit that. Harmonic major. Consistent with harmonic minor, ain't it? I like it.

C Harmonic Minor = C D Eb F G Ab B C.
They're saying C Harmonic Major = C D E F G G# B C. No 6th anywhere. I see a raised 5th though. I'm nitpicking because this doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

The catch is in that example if you want to be consistent with harmonic minor it'd involve an Ab instead of a G#. In the above referenced example it omits the 6th in favor of raising the 5. The le [Ab if we're talkin C harm minor] has a purpose-since that is scale degree VI and in minor- VI chords are major-le is what lets us get that.


feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

Ok-i did a search too. I didn't know such a thing existed. Up till today, i had never heard of it.

So there is major harmonic AND melodic scales?

dunno about melodic but apparently there is a harmonic major, wikipedia turns up blank for a melodic major but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_major_scale

Major scale with flatted 6th...

Never heard of it before now.

A major scale with an additional #5 is a major bebop scale (8 note scale). But here they've dropped the 6th (actually just made it enharmonically a b6).

Um, if it's a Major Scale with a Raised 5, It would be the 3rd mode of Harmonic Minor.
Unless we're talking with an ADDED #5, which in that case, it would be a Major Bebop Scale.

Four years as a music composition major and I never heard of the harmonic major scale until today.

The closest I can think of that we covered in theory class is mode mixture, which means borrowing notes from the minor scale when you're otherwise in a major key (flat 6, for example) and vice versa. But I never heard that scale called by a name.

A major scale with a raised fifth would be 3rd mode of harmonic minor. Harmonic Major is A major scale with a flat 6th. Neither are very useful scales, IMHO. The 3rd mode of Melodic Minor works much better for a Maj7#5 chord. That way, you don't have to worry about the unaltered 4th. I have been playing jazz for a long time and NEVER have i ever encountered a use for the Harmonic Major scale.

Oh, and there is no such thing as melodic major. A melodic minor has a Major 6th AND a Major 7th. So, the only difference between mel minor and major is the minor third in mel minor. So, if you raise the third (ie. melodic major), then you have major.

A major scale with a raised fifth would be 3rd mode of harmonic minor. Harmonic Major is A major scale with a flat 6th. Neither are very useful scales, . . . I have been playing jazz for a long time and NEVER have i ever encountered a use for the Harmonic Major scale.

My first thought was the third mode of harmonic minor too but then noticed that they had dropped the 6th off.

I have also never heard any mention of this scale but then again, I didn't study at the University of Wikipedia or Angelfire (instead choosing the lesser known Berklee and NT).

Ok so the major harmonic scale is just 1 2 3 4 5 b6 7 8 and there is no melodic major.
Thank you everyone, if anyone has anything else to add to this just post. thanks again:)

Ok so the major harmonic scale is just 1 2 3 4 5 b6 7 8 and there is no melodic major.
Thank you everyone, if anyone has anything else to add to this just post. thanks again:)

I don't think anyone actually confirmed that there is such a scale.

I don't think anyone actually confirmed that there is such a scale.

Com'on now, scales are just made up things anyways, it's just mirroring a harmonic minor scale so I don't see any reason why it can't exist.

They dropped the 6th?

i was under the impression it was a raised 5th.
Like i said, it would be the 3rd mode of Harmonic Minor, or Ionian #5.
C D E F G# A B C

I'd certainly heard of it, but never conciously used it.

It seems to be quite useful:

http://www.rickpeckham.com/pdf/Uses_of_Harm_Maj.pdf

Not a dropped (nonexistant) six, a flat six.

Starting on C:
C D E F G Ab B

I'd certainly heard of it, but never conciously used it.

It seems to be quite useful:

http://www.rickpeckham.com/pdf/Uses_of_Harm_Maj.pdf

I know Rick from NT and I think I'm going to try to have lunch with him next month. I remember seeing that paper from Rick a long time ago but somehow have forgotten. I guess you can tell that I don't use that scale at all.

I stand corrected then.


Here is some info I got from a friend of mine.

It's not new, but it has become increasingly more popular in recent years. One reason why is that it has three half-steps in it, and you can use these to form really interesting chords.

C E Ab B = CMaj7#5
G B D F Ab E = G13b9
Ab B D G = diminished (you choose the name, like Fdim9, or AbdimMaj7) (also E7#9)
Ab C E G
A C E G#
etc.

Allan Holdsworth uses it to make some neat drop voicings for guitar, especially with the half-step left dissonant in the middle of the chord, like the first three:
E B C G# x x 2 4 1 4
Ab E F B x x 6 10 6 7
B G Ab D x x 9 12 9 10
C Ab B D x x 10 13 12 10
he also uses it often in its fourth mode: F G Ab B C D E F - it produces F minor (Major7) with a #4.

I've been using it to form chords that have no name and no clear function (that I can determine), but I like them a lot. Try them on the piano (bottom to top):

A F G# B E (E/F/A, Lyle Mays used this in the last Metheny Group piece 'The Way Up')
C Ab B E G (Goodrick mentions this mystery chord in his voice leading book)
E C D G# B (E7#5,Natural5)
These sounds have also turned up in Bob Brookmeyer arrangements.

And because they have many tones in common with other major, minor, and harmonic major scales, you can slide around key centers really sneakily, as in:

C harmonic major: C D E F G Ab B C
Eb harmonic major: Eb F G Ab Bb B D Eb (five common tones!)
You could use Eb harmonic major to create chords that would act as V to the I chords of C harmonic major, like G/Eb: Eb G B D and, as a drop voicing: G Eb B D. This chord looks a lot like Cm(Maj9), but playing both Bb and B over the top of it will quickly dissaude anyone of that idea.

This scale produces all kinds of aumented and diminshed sounds.
It produces upper structures that disagree with roots.
It makes all kinds of outside things that sound good.

HOWEVER, THIS SHOULD ONLY BE USED BY TRAINED PERSONNEL. USING THIS SCALE, AND THE CHORDS DERIVED FROM IT, TAKES REALLY GOOD EARS, OR ELSE IT WILL GET BIZARRE REALLY QUICK. IF YOU COMP FOR SOMEONE AND START DROPPING THESE VOICINGS IN, YOU RISK TOTALLY ******* THEM UP. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. ALSO, PLEASE USE THESE ONLY FOR GOOD, NOT FOR EVIL.

Holy Crap, Freddels-you went to NT?? That is awesome. I played in a big band directed by a graduate from there. Killer educator and player.

Harmonic Major:

Harmonic major is often used on the #4 dim 7 chord, which is the non-root II7(b9) (the II7 is actually V7/V, a secondary dominant).

In C major, this would be F#o7 or D7(b9).

While often times a symmetrical dimished F# scale is used to play over this (whole step, half step), the G "melodic major" scale is a choice that more clearly implies the diatonic relationship. The scale would be:

G A B C D Eb F#

Hope this helps.

HOWEVER, THIS SHOULD ONLY BE USED BY TRAINED PERSONNEL. USING THIS SCALE, AND THE CHORDS DERIVED FROM IT, TAKES REALLY GOOD EARS, OR ELSE IT WILL GET BIZARRE REALLY QUICK. IF YOU COMP FOR SOMEONE AND START DROPPING THESE VOICINGS IN, YOU RISK TOTALLY ******* THEM UP. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. ALSO, PLEASE USE THESE ONLY FOR GOOD, NOT FOR EVIL.

LOL!! That's exactly the reason I use wierd scales like this, for the sheer bizarre and utter strange sounds they create. Oh and the evil, we musn't forget the evil.

I never heard of the harmonic major scale either, and to be honest it seems unnecessary. Bunny Brunel uses it in his book Power Bass, but I don't think you'll ever come across it in any jazz theory book - i could be wrong about this though!

Stu

Wow on the Harmonic Major stuff. Now that we've been talking about it, I do recall a Herbie Hancock tune that called for a Maj7b6. Hmm... Allan Holdsworth is a scary musician. With the possible exceptions of Michael Brecker (RIP) and maybe Chick Corea, there is no other player I'd be so afriad to play with...

Well, Gonzalo Rubalcaba, too...
And Ari Hoenig...

I smell a thread.

(cut and paste)

Harmonic major scale
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In music, the harmonic major scale is a musical scale which found occasional use during the common practice era and is now often employed, in particular in jazz.

It may be considered as a major scale with the sixth degree flattened, or the harmonic minor scale with the third degree sharpened. It is also a mode of the inversion of the harmonic minor scale.

For example, an A major scale consists of the notes: A B C# D E F# G#; whereas an A harmonic major scale consists of the notes: A B C# D E F G#. Notice the sixth note in the sequence is flattened, from F# to F. The A harmonic major scale can also be obtained from the A harmonic minor scale, which is A B C D E F G#, by sharpening the C to C#.

The harmonic major scale may be used in any system of meantone tuning, such as 19 equal temperament or 31 equal temperament, as well as 12 equal temperament. The musical effect of the harmonic major scale is a sound intermediate between harmonic minor and diatonic major, and partaking of both.

The harmonic major scale is one of the five proper seven-note scales of equal temperament, and while less often used than the diatonic major, diatonic (or natural) minor, harmonic minor or ascending minor scales, belongs to the same family and can be regarded as a natural member of the diatonic system of scales. Like those other scales, it has a complete circle of thirds; starting from the tonic the pattern is MmmmMMm, where M is a major third and m is a minor third.

It is also a mode of the inversion of the harmonic minor scale.


Hmmm..I had to think about this one. So it's like the same "whole step, half step" relationships of the fifth mode of hamonic minor (sometimes called 'Phrygian Major').... played backwards.
:confused:

Now that we've been talking about it, I do recall a Herbie Hancock tune that called for a Maj7b6.

Wouldn't that just be a Maj7#5 (lydian augmented)?

The Harmonic Major as it has been called is very useful when played from the 5th degree over a Dom7b9 chord resolving to the I major.

I was playing the scale for a good amount of time before I discovered it had a name - the reason being is that when it is played from the fifth degree it is simply a Mixolydian scale with the flat 9th For example on "All the Things You Are", play a C har. maj. on the G7b9, and a G har. maj on the D7b9.

Here it is laid out:

1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7

I think it is better to think of it as a Mixo scale with the flatted 9th as opposed to "harmonic major from the fifth degree"...If you know your Mixolydian scales it is much easier to think like this.

Hm...
Interesting. I'll ask some guys here at Humber about this scale.

Make mine a double Harmonic Major scale; aka "Gypsy" or "Byzantine" scale

C Db E F G Ab B C. Very symmetrical. Cool if you don't mind Aug 2nds. Very metal.

Um, if it's a Major Scale with a Raised 5, It would be the 3rd mode of Harmonic Minor.
Unless we're talking with an ADDED #5, which in that case, it would be a Major Bebop Scale.

Beat me to it

never heard of the harmonic major scale, and as far as I'm aware it doesn't exist. It would be a mode of harmonic minor or a major bebop with a dropped note.

odd, I have never heard of Harmonic Major either.

Major b6, however, I have heard of.

I think the name is an unfortunate result from this flawed logic:

The third mode of the Minor scale = Major
Ergo
the third mode of the Harmonic Minor Scale = harmonic Major!
:rollno:

The Harmonic minor scale , while it is used for melodic ideas, is primarily used for the purpose of 4 note chord building in minor keys, usually in a jazz context. ( Its raised 7th allows for the V chord to be a dominant 7th chord) Hence the name Harmonic Minor.

Calling a Major b6 scale "harmonic major" is kind of misleading, because the the real harmonic, used-to-build-chords major scale is simply the Major scale.

just my opinion...

My first thought was the third mode of harmonic minor too but then noticed that they had dropped the 6th off.

I have also never heard any mention of this scale but then again, I didn't study at the University of Wikipedia or Angelfire (instead choosing the lesser known Berklee and NT).

At Berklee, actually, the harmonic major and all of its derived moves is one of the scales that performance majors must have down in their fourth semester in addition to the usual ones (diminished, augmented, whole tone, major, harmonic, melodic and all the modes derived from those pitch sets). I'm not a performance major so I can't say I'm too familiar with it, but there are some very interesting uses for it in the correct hands. It is NOT a "bebop scale", or a scale with a chromatic note added for harmonic clarity in eighth note runs.