Percy Jones is featured in the latest issue of Bassics, the one with Rhonda Smith on the cover. His interview focuses on his current band Tunnels, but it is very sobering. Percy says he has never gotten any royalties from the first five Brand X cds. He only ever got one $2,000 check, and he had to sign away his publishing to get it. The company eventually ended saying he owed them $250,000. Finally, he also says that he has not been able to earn a living in music for years, and helps his wife in her jewelry business.

It is very sobering to realize that such a great musician cannot make ends meet even though he possesses such great skills.:(

That's outrageous. Maybe if he had donned big hair and spandex in the 80's he'd be a household name 8)

Check this out Cheese.

http://www.percyjones.net/interview.htm

Thanks for the link, Jauqo. I'm not surprised that percy is a big Alphonso Johnson fan. He and Alphonso are the two really overlooked giants of fretless bass. I also see he liked Michael Henderson too, Henderson went on to play some awesome fretless in a pop context on his solo cds. Of course, he likes Anthony Jackson! Genius has to recognize it's own kind.:)

You're very welcome Mr. Cheese :)

Does that surprise you? How many copies did you think Brand X sold anyway?

You are aware that advances paid by record companies often get used to put the band on the road. Then if the albums sell poorly the band is in debt to the record company.

Songwriting royalties are payable immediately of course, but the idea of signing away the publishing to pay other debts is quite common.

Does that surprise you? How many copies did you think Brand X sold anyway?

You are aware that advances paid by record companies often get used to put the band on the road. Then if the albums sell poorly the band is in debt to the record company.

Songwriting royalties are payable immediately of course, but the idea of signing away the publishing to pay other debts is quite common.

+1

As far as music for a living, look at Allan Holdsworth's career.
:hmm:

Thanks for the link, Jauqo. I'm not surprised that percy is a big Alphonso Johnson fan. He and Alphonso are the two really overlooked giants of fretless bass. I also see he liked Michael Henderson too, Henderson went on to play some awesome fretless in a pop context on his solo cds. Of course, he likes Anthony Jackson! Genius has to recognize it's own kind.:)

Not to reignite the "why do you play fretless" thing but Alphonso, Percy, Henderson and Lamont Johnson were my earliest influences. So here's one more fretless player named Johnson:rolleyes:

:bassist:

Does that surprise you? How many copies did you think Brand X sold anyway?

You are aware that advances paid by record companies often get used to put the band on the road. Then if the albums sell poorly the band is in debt to the record company.

Songwriting royalties are payable immediately of course, but the idea of signing away the publishing to pay other debts is quite common.

Hey, I'm a naive guy who mainly sits by my computer slapping along to cds for fun.:cool: I have been in bands, and have even been paid, but mainly I am an amateur and fan, so I guess the reality of how hard music can be for even a great musician is eye-opening.:eek:

Does that surprise you? How many copies did you think Brand X sold anyway?


They must have sold quite a lot for a jazz rock band 'cause they had Phil Collins on drums. Well, at least more than National Health, Gilgamesh etc.

They must have sold quite a lot for a jazz rock band 'cause they had Phil Collins on drums. Well, at least more than National Health, Gilgamesh etc.


I doubt Phil joined for the money... he was already in Genesis. And I doubt Brand X sold a lot of records judging by the number of folks who are completely unfamiliar with them. More than who?
;)

I doubt Phil joined for the money... he was already in Genesis. And I doubt Brand X sold a lot of records judging by the number of folks who are completely unfamiliar with them. More than who?
;)

I meant they must have sold a lot more than their contemporaries (British jazz-rock bands like the aforementioned National Health, Gilgamesh, Soft Machine, Isotope etc.) because they had Phil Collins on drums. He had a "name" that an average listener knew, the others were more known to musos, to put it bluntly.

Brand X were never a comercial band so that doesn't surprises me, "music for musicians" rarely makes players rich.
I read they had a chance to get bigger support from their record company if they added a singer and made more accesible songs buy they declined and only Phil Collins was up for it.

Brand X were never a comercial band so that doesn't surprises me, "music for musicians" rarely makes players rich.
I read they had a chance to get bigger support from their record company if they added a singer and made more accesible songs buy they declined and only Phil Collins was up for it.

They did release a few tunes with Phil singing and it even got a bit of radio airplay. John Goodsall says the same thing about never getting any money from that band.

Regarding National Health, Pip Pyle came out with his band to San Francisco a few years back, he drew about 10 people :rollno: I'm glad I got a chance to see him though.

On his last Tunnels tour, I think he had an SWR workingmans rig.
That made me think, he didnt have that much money.

I think now he gets royalties from Bukeyball records, for his tunnel's stuff.
Hopefully he gets a few bucks from that.

I know one thing, that Affirma Ibanez bass, hes playing sure looks cool

I didn't post this as a pity party for Percy Jones. He is not rich, but as far as I know, he has his health, and he is still making the music he loves. He can still record and do some touring. I just think that his situation is something that younger musicians should know about. Music is a hard field for making a living, especially when one is playing the music of one's heart, and not doing the familiar standards or top forty material.

For a bit of perspective, I imagine that Jaco's family would trade royalty checks for a healthy Jaco who could only record and tour part time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJNnLIPZ_n4

I first saw this link on Rockabilly Bass.
I'm sure this has been posted here too.
Seems to me, with today's technology and ease of information exchange...it's easier than ever to follow this advice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJNnLIPZ_n4

I first saw this link on Rockabilly Bass.
I'm sure this has been posted here too.
Seems to me, with today's technology and ease of information exchange...it's easier than ever to follow this advice.

That's a great post! More and more musicians are doing this. Even if you end up with a big label, coming in independent

Well it's great to see Percy's name in a post here. I have been a fan of his since the 70's and as far as influences go for me, he is the king. :)

I have met him several times and he is an incredibly humble man, and to me a national treasure, no wait international treasure.
And all is true that is being said here, he does make money now thanks to Marc and Buckeyball. By all means buy Tunnels stuff, it really is wonderfull and I own all of his stuff. I even have the pleasure of being in the audience for a live track on the Tunnels Live "The Art of Living Dangerously".

It's a shame when great musicians can't even eek out a living, when people like K-Fet can have a lucrative life and so called "music career".
Someday taste will reign supreme. :)
Dirk

:D I didn't post this as a pity party for Percy Jones. He is not rich, but as far as I know, he has his health, and he is still making the music he loves. He can still record and do some touring. I just think that his situation is something that younger musicians should know about. Music is a hard field for making a living, especially when one is playing the music of one's heart, and not doing the familiar standards or top forty material.

For a bit of perspective, I imagine that Jaco's family would trade royalty checks for a healthy Jaco who could only record and tour part time.

Good point. Percy seems well spirited from what I have read. Who knows, perhaps his playing would be less inspired now if he were doing better financially? Maybe, a part of him wouldn't have it any other way? All I know is I love his playing. I also love Mick Karn's playing and as long as there is some pity going around he needs some too because he is worth more than he makes.:bawl: Oh yeah, and probably most of us reading this too!:D

When I was 17, a blues-guitar player told me, "When you get older, you're gonna be a monster. You gotta listen to this bass player to get there." He gave me a copy of Livestock - which I carry with me in my briefcase to this day (but now on CD - one of these days my palm will play mp3s, and I refuse to buy and ipod).

Listening to what he does inspired me to go fretless (even though I had heard Jaco before this), and push the boundaries. The country band I was with a couple of years ago wondered why I brought my fretless to a gig - I said I wanted to try it on a couple of the original ballads...then I used it on his original rockers. Now they wonder why the originals don't sound like they did when I played...but I digress...

Music for musicians doesn't make money - because usually musicians don't have money to support other musicians. The local music store isn't catering to the musician that comes in to get his strings or his axe set-up - he's looking at making a buck off the soccer moms that want their children to be well rounded. This is why I'm glad the Internet has the capability to create distribution channels and satellite radio offers access to music that isn't available on commercial (nor public) radio. That said, I like this part of Percy's home page:

Thursday, APRIL 18, 2007: Fontana's 105 Eldridge St. NYC 212-334-6740
Wednesday, MAY 8, 2007: Lion's Den, 214 Sullivan St. NYC 212-634-0427

Saturday, MAY 18, 2007: Fatbaby, 112 Rivington St. NYC 212-533-1888

Gigs to hear him in NYC for those fortunate enough to get there. I think he needs to create a myspacemusic and post some tunes to it for sale - soon it will be the way all of us distribute music to each other, as CDs become the new 8-tracks.

Must listen to "Malaga Virgen" now before I lay me down to sleep....

I meant they must have sold a lot more than their contemporaries (British jazz-rock bands like the aforementioned National Health, Gilgamesh, Soft Machine, Isotope etc.) because they had Phil Collins on drums. He had a "name" that an average listener knew, the others were more known to musos, to put it bluntly.

Again, what is "a lot more"? I have a lot more books than most people but that doesn't make me a library;)

It was fusion, which rarely sells to the degree of even the slightest Pop hit. We're not exactly talking Kenny G money here, are we?
:hiding:

When I was 17, a blues-guitar player told me, "When you get older, you're gonna be a monster. You gotta listen to this bass player to get there." He gave me a copy of Livestock - which I carry with me in my briefcase to this day (but now on CD - one of these days my palm will play mp3s, and I refuse to buy and ipod).

Listening to what he does inspired me to go fretless (even though I had heard Jaco before this), and push the boundaries. The country band I was with a couple of years ago wondered why I brought my fretless to a gig - I said I wanted to try it on a couple of the original ballads...then I used it on his original rockers. Now they wonder why the originals don't sound like they did when I played...but I digress...

Music for musicians doesn't make money - because usually musicians don't have money to support other musicians. The local music store isn't catering to the musician that comes in to get his strings or his axe set-up - he's looking at making a buck off the soccer moms that want their children to be well rounded. This is why I'm glad the Internet has the capability to create distribution channels and satellite radio offers access to music that isn't available on commercial (nor public) radio. That said, I like this part of Percy's home page:

Thursday, APRIL 18, 2007: Fontana's 105 Eldridge St. NYC 212-334-6740
Wednesday, MAY 8, 2007: Lion's Den, 214 Sullivan St. NYC 212-634-0427

Saturday, MAY 18, 2007: Fatbaby, 112 Rivington St. NYC 212-533-1888

Gigs to hear him in NYC for those fortunate enough to get there. I think he needs to create a myspacemusic and post some tunes to it for sale - soon it will be the way all of us distribute music to each other, as CDs become the new 8-tracks.

Must listen to "Malaga Virgen" now before I lay me down to sleep....

There's a more basic reason music for musicians doesn't make money... most people aren't musicians and most people definitely wouldn't "get" something like Brand X. I seriously doubt any of them went into it as some big money making venture. Doing a tour with David Cassidy would've been far more lucratrive:D. Or Rick Springfield. Or one of them other guys. Not Jazz Fusion.

Phil Collins and Genesis weren't exactly a money-making machine in the 70's. I remember Phil Collins solo album not selling when it first came out, it took a few years.

Percy is a rare breed, a true innovator. He has a vocabulary at his fingertips few can imagine, let alone achieve. I agree w/ the comparison to Allan Holdsworth in that they both redefined the language of their instrument. For the masses? I guess not. But I sure am greatful when they come along and give us a glimpse of the future.

I meant they must have sold a lot more than their contemporaries (British jazz-rock bands like the aforementioned National Health, Gilgamesh, Soft Machine, Isotope etc.) because they had Phil Collins on drums. He had a "name" that an average listener knew, the others were more known to musos, to put it bluntly.

Sorry but I think you'll find Soft Machine sold way more records than Brand X ever dreamed of. They were on a major label (Columbia) who actively promoted them for many years. Not that they got rich either.

Certainly Brand X had no more luck at radio airplay than the others. Most Genesis/Collins fans have no idea he played in a band called Brand X (or of his work with John Martyn, Peter Banks, etc.). Why would someone who dug Against All Odds be interested in Brand X?

You might be surprised at how few records some bands actually sell even though they get lots of great reviews and other press. If great reviews were all you needed Captain Beefheart would be filling stadiums.

I did a gig a few years ago where the sub drummer was Dave Mattacks...a guy who was a first call studio drummer in the UK for two decades, was in Jethro Tull, recorded with McCartney, etc. and he was taking a $75 weeknight blues gig. He told me that night he has never seen any royalties from the half dozen albums he recorded with Fairport Convention for Island (all still in print after 35 years). Welcome to the music business.

Percy Jones is one of a very few original voices on the fretless bass, and in an ideal world he'd be getting a parcel of loot for just being himself...But that isn't the way the recording industry game was/is played. The deal signed with Charisma was a typical one for its time - weighted in favor of the company at the expense of the artist.
He's had to do non-music work in the past to support himself, and while that isn't very gratifying from an artistic perspective it does grant one the freedom to be exactly what they want to be when the fingers meet the string.
I will certainly continue to buy products featuring his involvement, and would love to get my hands on one of those Affirma/EDA style basses.

For those with an interest, Tunnels does have a MySpace page (http://www.myspace.com/themusicoftunnels).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJNnLIPZ_n4

I first saw this link on Rockabilly Bass.
I'm sure this has been posted here too.
Seems to me, with today's technology and ease of information exchange...it's easier than ever to follow this advice.

Exactly. In this respect, the internet is a godsend.

Sorry but I think you'll find Soft Machine sold way more records than Brand X ever dreamed of. They were on a major label (Columbia) who actively promoted them for many years. Not that they got rich either.

Certainly Brand X had no more luck at radio airplay than the others. Most Genesis/Collins fans have no idea he played in a band called Brand X (or of his work with John Martyn, Peter Banks, etc.). Why would someone who dug Against All Odds be interested in Brand X?

Well, Brand X's label (Charisma) weren't that small but I get your drift and you may be right. Hopefully Percy (and other members) will get their royalties someday. With Hackett's solo stuff recently remastered and reissued, maybe they'll do the same with Brand X's back catalogue.


I did a gig a few years ago where the sub drummer was Dave Mattacks...a guy who was a first call studio drummer in the UK for two decades, was in Jethro Tull, recorded with McCartney, etc. and he was taking a $75 weeknight blues gig. He told me that night he has never seen any royalties from the half dozen albums he recorded with Fairport Convention for Island (all still in print after 35 years). Welcome to the music business.

Outrageous.

I did a gig a few years ago where the sub drummer was Dave Mattacks... he has never seen any royalties from the half dozen albums he recorded with Fairport Convention for Island (all still in print after 35 years).
Speaking of Fairport Convention, I once played a casual with Jerry Donahue, the guitarist who replaced Richard Thompson. Real nice guy who played awesomely. It was a house party, or rather a garage party. We set up in the driveway and played to a handful of people sitting on lawn chairs in the garage. Afterwards, Jerry sold us all copies of his album "Telecasting", from the trunk of his car. Don't remember what we got paid, but Jerry went home with all of his pay, and a bite of each of ours as well!

Jazz fusion (the American variety) did pretty well in the late 70's. I remember lots of AOR airplay for Weather Report, Mahivishnu Orchestra, Jeff Beck, Stanley Clarke, and RTF. And the pop charts were filled with Jazz influenced material like Steely Dan, EWF, Chuck Mangione, Grover Washington, etc. By the time the British fusion era got hot the pop charts were ruled by drum machines, orchestra hit synths, and "image" acts. I remember when Holdsworth hooked up with the help of Eddie Van Halen and a ton of publicity in the guitar mags to release the first big IOU CD with Jack Bruce on Vocals (Jeff Berlin and Chad Wackerman). The record company after two years of hassle released an EP that did not sell. Despite all of the hype, Holdsworth spent most of the 80's playing mid sized Rock clubs. I didn't hear about Soft Machine or Brand X in the states until the late 80's and I was very much in the Jazz loop (which was actually pretty bare in the 80's accept for Metheny). All in all that may be the era when the music really died. Pop still hasn't recovered.

I remember when Holdsworth hooked up with the help of Eddie Van Halen and a ton of publicity in the guitar mags to release the first big IOU CD with Jack Bruce on Vocals (Jeff Berlin and Chad Wackerman).

Paul Williams on vocals and Paul Carmichael on bass, no Bruce or Berlin on that one. Which I have on vinyl from the show :)

And Gary Husband drums :)

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=5288

Holdsworth also has stories of being ripped off. Velvet darkness was released without his permission and he has a few albums he's never seen a check for.

Paul Williams on vocals and Paul Carmichael on bass, no Bruce or Berlin on that one. Which I have on vinyl from the show :)

And Gary Husband drums :)

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=5288

My bad, I was thinking of Road Games. I'm getting real close to fifty and the memory is not what it use to be. Either way they had a ton of "musician hype" and didn't sell. I remember fusion acts in the late seventies selling out some pretty big halls. Weather Report and Stanley both played Pine Knob (about 15000) in Detroit. If they did a reunion tour together with Jaco back from the dead they would barely fill RO theater (1800) today.:confused:

My bad, I was thinking of Road Games. I'm getting real close to fifty and the memory is not what it use to be. Either way they had a ton of "musician hype" and didn't sell. I remember fusion acts in the late seventies selling out some pretty big halls. Weather Report and Stanley both played Pine Knob (about 15000) in Detroit. If they did a reunion tour together with Jaco back from the dead they would barely fill RO theater (1800) today.:confused:


You're kidding, right?

Ahhh, yes....when the realization hits that there are many, many fabulous,talented players out there that will never be known or recognized by the general populace, it is sobering indeed! I have a friend of 30 years, a high ranking exec in the corporate music biz (he is also a lifelong musician), who once told me "The music business isn't about music, it's about business". That's the reality of the situation. The folks who get into music to "get signed...be a star" eventually drop by the wayside from attrition. The folks who plug along, and keep playin' for life, because music is necessary for their life, are the true heroes and stars. The reality of a life in, or with music for 99% of us is playing clubs, GB stuff, sessions, pit-work, benefits, private parties, at home, etc.--for little, or no recognition. Doesn't matter...we get to PLAY, and get paid (sometimes)! Great deal! And, you'll run into players that will astound you, and.....nobody'll know, or care. Fair? Nope! Brianrost mentioned the fabulous Dave Mattacks earlier. I'm amazed, but grateful, that I've had the opportunity to see and meet Dave at many of his local Boston area gigs over the last few years, most at typical small bars/clubs. He is , quite possibly, one of the nicest, most self-effacing people I've ever met. His catalog is HUGE, but he does these jobs. Why?..."Well, I'm a working drummer, and it's a gig". The man is a MUSICIAN. I remember reading an interview with Ringo Starr, where he was asked why he still when out and did gigs and tours, when he "didn't really have to". His reply..."I'm a drummer, that's what I do. I play drums". There Ya go!

It sucks to hear that Percy is not getting his due. He is, by all accounts, a fasntastic player, but I guess, in the world of music, at least in a commercial sense, that counts for nothing. Otherwise, Wooten, Hellborg and Hamm would be MTV megastars, featuring regularly on Cribs and "Hellborg knows best".

I mean, yes, fusion is not a big seller. I read that back in the 1970's, fusion accounted for just less than 5% of all record sales. These days, it does not even get close to 0.1% of all records sales. However, back then, things were a lot more lucrative for fusion acts. "Headhunters" by Herbie Hancock sold well (not strictly fusion, I know), Weather Report sold out Newcastle City Hall and such.

Mind you, I'm not a huge Brand X fan, even though fusion is without a doubt, my favourite genre of music. I just find a lot of Brand X stuff uninspired, despite Percy being a great player. Still, they have their fans and that I cannot knock!

IMO, even if the remnants of the recording industry put their hand to promoting music-intensive (as opposed to personality-intensive) forms of expression, the consumer still wouldn't 'get it'...Too much of a disconnect between the reality of mastering an instrument as a life-long process and their appreciation of same, and thus the value systems that we as musicians adhere to means nothing to them generally.

That's not to say that I personally hold the audience in contempt ("Lowly worms! Respect my genius! Bah!" ;) ) but I have done this long enough to recognize their limitations when it comes to being capable of recognizing and rating favorably those who devote an 'inordinate' amount of time to honing their talents, in a society that worships a pop idol's gluteal firmness higher than their ability to warble a tune without pitch correction.

:D

I think fusion and much of the blowing type of jazz just doesn't move very many non-musicians. Often it sounds like a bunch of notes and a hip chord substitution may just sound like a wrong chord.When I go to a fusion gig, it's nearly always muso's and a few unsuspecting first-dates.
I can count on one hand the # of non-muso's I know who truely enjoy progressive inst. music. People want more easily digestable music.
I went on a dbl date once to see Jean Luc Ponty and Al Dimeola. Post concert we were asking our girls what their impressions were...." I thought the lights were cool".
There is a difference between the US and Europe to be sure. For ex., I did gigs w/ Zappa alumni to rooms of 200-400 people ( mostly white males) here in the states. In Europe we were playing 1000-2000 type venues (women too!).
Long post but... In the case of Percy.... I think...on top of my previous
musings, bass in particular poses even more challenge. Many people don't hear the nuance of bass as much as feel the pulse. An unusual sub. in the bass may make a head twist, perhaps unknowingly, but not "wow that was a great sub in the bass". People relate to voices, and instruments a little higher in register. Bass has long been a support inst. and people aren't used to having to focus on it as much as feel it. So when someone like Percy does something unique and perhaps not done before, for ex. slide a harmonic and fingered note at the same time as a cool fingernail/string buzz, If you're not an attentive bass player, you may not notice, or care. I love it and I'm glad he does it, but my wife is unimpressed, and waiting for a song with a melody or pocket to grab onto.
For these and other reasons, I believe bass as a lead/focal point inst., provides daunting challenge. Just take your few bars in "Brown Eyed Girl" and be happy.
I feel better now and still love Percys playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJNnLIPZ_n4

I first saw this link on Rockabilly Bass.
I'm sure this has been posted here too.
Seems to me, with today's technology and ease of information exchange...it's easier than ever to follow this advice.

I agree with Mr Dale on this one. Know the business and how to market yourself/ band. Use his words wisely.

I went on a dbl date once to see Jean Luc Ponty and Al Dimeola. Post concert we were asking our girls what their impressions were...." I thought the lights were cool".

I bet you went home alone that night...heavy fusion has never been a girl's best friend!

I think fusion and much of the blowing type of jazz just doesn't move very many non-musicians... People want more easily digestable music.
So when someone like Percy does something unique and perhaps not done before,... I love it and I'm glad he does it, but my wife is unimpressed, and waiting for a song with a melody or pocket to grab onto.
Too true. My ex (raised in So. Dakota on country music) used to holler "Put on something with words!!" :p :bassist:

Too true. My ex (raised in So. Dakota on country music) used to holler "Put on something with words!!" :p :bassist:

That's when you whip out some Robert Wyatt or Dagmar Krause, that'll teach 'em :)

I'll bet there's a TalkShakespeare board out there having the same discussion trying to understand why TV shows anything but the Bard.

+1

As far as music for a living, look at Allan Holdsworth's career.
:hmm:

yeah, it's all very sad for these genius musicians. When Allan played the birchmere last year I was there and made a couple of acquaintances. I purchased 2 CDs and a DVD and convinced the other guys to buy some stuff as well. I have known about Allan's struggles for years and hoped that at least this would contribute a bit.

I keep waiting to hear that these guys have thrown the towel.

I take it Allan has had it rough over the years? He's a fantastic guitarist, what is the struggle you speak of?

I take it Allan has had it rough over the years? He's a fantastic guitarist, what is the struggle you speak of?

dinero $$$

The music biz. I am glad to say is changing with digital technology. It puts more money back into the musicians, prob. even more than indie record labels. One could record, post it, and sell it. No record label BS.

The million dollar record deal is a bit of a bogus idea that money is made by the musician. A typical well managed deal in the 70's or 80s might see the artist get 10 points of a record. Worse if the artist, is a 5 piece band. Each member, assuming equal division gets 2 points each.....

About 50 points goes to the label. The other points go to all the advances, studio time, production costs, copyrights, accountants, legal fees, and so forth. Then you have tour and promotion costs which need to be recouped and if the sales don't pick up, then haha. Somebody somewhere picks up the tab for rock and roll excesses, and all the TVs flying out of windows....

Unscrupulous business practices are better policed now with better knowledge about the biz. but still there are people looking for that million dollar deal.

FYI: a hit pop record in the UK is something in the region of 150 000 units. Not a lot, but these are the figures. Of course there are those that would sell in excess of this figure.

A mediocre (sales) fusion recording might sell 15000 in its first year.

Say a record is £10.That's 150 000 quid. 10% is 15K. 4 members in Brand X, --- that's about under £4K. That's a month's salary for many. That's what you get paid, i.e. if some one kept the books tidy....This of course is simple accounting, in reality the sales are in dribs and drabs and you might get your 2.5% royalty for 1000 units that sold last year. In simple accounting terms that's roughly £250.

You'd get a bit more if you own the copyrights of the tunes.

My days in the music production biz are over, and I play now in various cover bands and I have a full time day job and career. How much do I make gigging annually playing silly covers? About 40 - 50 gigs a year, each gig roughly about £100. Yeah, about 4K.

Hearing about Allan's divorce made me really sad.

The truth is even "Smooth Jazz" doesn't sell very well, let alone more serious forms of jazz and jazz fusion. We are a dumbed down populace. What happened to the day when truly great music was the popular music of the day - 99% of kids today couldn't stay focused long enough to listen to a Glen Miller Orchestra record all the way through. We've become all about easy, fast, in your face and it's permeated the music business as well. It's not just music though. Look at today's movies. They're rubbish compared to the movies of yesteryear. Not all of them of course, but it's all about the special effect now. The writing's horrible, the acting is mediocre at best and when a great film does get released it barely sells.

Music is sadly no different.

Mr. Dale's words instantly reminded me of Robert Fripp after he created Discipline Global Mobile. Most of the content of this webpage (http://www.dgmlive.com/about.htm) can be found in the "Absent Lovers - King Crimson Live in Montreal" CD's booklet and the first paragraph of the copyright statement appears in every DGM release, as far as I can tell.

The truth is even "Smooth Jazz" doesn't sell very well, let alone more serious forms of jazz and jazz fusion. We are a dumbed down populace. What happened to the day when truly great music was the popular music of the day - 99% of kids today couldn't stay focused long enough to listen to a Glen Miller Orchestra record all the way through. We've become all about easy, fast, in your face and it's permeated the music business as well. It's not just music though. Look at today's movies. They're rubbish compared to the movies of yesteryear. Not all of them of course, but it's all about the special effect now. The writing's horrible, the acting is mediocre at best and when a great film does get released it barely sells.

Music is sadly no different.

More people are participating now than ever before and they can't all be winners. In spite of that I think there's some very good music and movies being made these days... just a lot more to wade through.

As far as comparing movies to yesteryear, IMO that's mainly nostalgia talking. Ever watch Mystery Science Theater 3000? They didn't have to look hard to find those movies:D. Back in the day there were good movies and crap movies, just like now.

That article with Percy Jones was quite sobering. It really shows the sheer powerlessness an artist can have over their own career financial wise. But it is uplifting to know an innovator like Mr Jones is still sticking to his guns and doing what he believes in. I have read other articles about his through the years but his candor and honesty here are quite a wake up call to a lot of younger kids that just want a quick record deal in this American Idol culture we live in. Music is really for those that are in it for a life time not the faint of heart who lose a TV contest and quit or the youngster that feels some sort of entitlement to a record contract and riches.Mr Jones spend years honing his skills and for that he should have all our deepest respect. He is a true bass artist and he is one of the reasons I love my fretless bass and play that instrument only.

I just got done reading a article on Gary Willis, and he mentioned one of the reasons he moved to Spain was to be able to make a living.

I just got done reading a article on Gary Willis, and he mentioned one of the reasons he moved to Spain was to be able to make a living.

I didn't know that. I saw him a couple of times in Germany and the Netherlands, he's giging a lot over here (for obvious reasons). I took part in a master class of Gary 5-6 years ago in Germany and we (the students) asked him about making a living as a bassplayer. He mentioned it's hard if you're not into studio, recording or backing pop artis and stuff like that. Back then he said he's doing fine teaching and writing books, but they couldn't get any gigs with Tribal Tech.
And since he's not that much of a good sight-reader (as he said) he won't be "everybody's" bassplayer.
I guess Spain isn't bad at all but if someone like him is "forced" to go overseas to make a living..that's sobering in deed.
Last thing I read about Holdsworth was that he is a part-time brewer.
Someone here on tb mentioned that Randy-Hope Tayler is a part-time busdriver:eek: Couldn't believe it.

Last thing I read about Holdsworth was that he is a part-time brewer.
Someone here on tb mentioned that Randy-Hope Tayler is a part-time busdriver:eek: Couldn't believe it.

It's not just fusion. Lots of famous musicians in niche genres have day jobs to make ends meet.

That's not counting all the pros who quit music altogether to take up more lucrative jobs.

Theres no justice ( sometimes ) in the music business for those that just love to play for playings sake.

If there was, Jones , Holdsworth, et al would be zillionaires. Tough life.

I've been a Percy fan, and Brand x fan since the 70's and when Karn popped his head up with Japan, both of them became my 2 top fave players. Slap style bores the enamel off of my teeth, so these 2 monsters really cut the mustard in my book.
Especially since they are both so unique, or were, i should say.

Tunnels bass playing isnt so out there IMO ( though of course it is in its own way ) as the stuff he did with Brand x.
Same with Karn and Japan.

I see also Holdsworth was also mentioned regarding the lack of royalties, and to put this in a nutshell, i saw him live in a tiny jazz bar in the student town of Oxford , UK. This was when AH was already famous and would be around the mid 80's i guess.
There was an URB player and a drummer. That was the band.
The seating held appox 30 people. I think it was a very cheap gig ...hazy memory, but i know i paid peanuts.
Imagine this guy, doing this little gig. He surely was not in it for the bucks, not that gig anyways.
I've got some GONG with holdsworth appearing, ...Gazeuse ! is the CD and he plays some awesome stuff, and they were a pretty professional band and i'm sure he would have got some royalties from that, but i bet it doesnt last long.

I really liked the stuff Holdsworth did with Level 42, he played some great solos for them! And his use of headless guitars too, excellent! Whats more, he and Berlin are an excellent team of Bruford's "One of a kind" album, though in truth, I have always much prefered John Mclaughlin.

PJ with his Precision Fretless way back in days of yore

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/slapper/folk/percyjones.jpg

Percy & Brand x were one of my favorites and I got to see them live in Cleveland. Amazing live.

The critics always panned Percy, unfairly, as a Jaco clone, which, yes, had some influence on him, but never a clone. You can say the same about Karn.

It's funny how many people forgot how Soft Machine started as a 60's British pop band.


Zappa once was quoted as saying a Jazz musician = poverty.

True musical genius will never go with the masses because only musicians a few learned people "get it". If everyone "got it" the world would be a better place, but that's not how it works. Accept it.


I guess that's why Zappa dumbed down his music with cheesy lyrics about the simple things like booze, sex & catholic girls, the good things in life, put to brilliant music. Half of Zappa's audience was idiots and the other half musicians, but it drew a large audience and got him top 40 airplay.

If you want to "make it" money wise you better have some compromise in your music with either, singing, a big effect show or music people can dance to and understand. Also you need to build a live following, sticking to one band to build it. Changing bands every year makes this hard. King Crimson & Zappa are hallmarks of this, constantly rotating band members, but always under the "band" name. Holdsworth not so much.

The biggest thing any great musician should do is learn to sing, it takes you so much further business & control wise.

A good point is Clapton vs. Jeff Beck- Clapton has mega commercial success while Jeff Beck, nowadays, no one young knows who he is!

Say Beck and they first think of the other one, the famous Beck.

I remember Zappa once trouncing a journalist for calling him a Rock Guitarist.

He said he was a composer, but he just happened to play a guitar

...
True musical genius will never go with the masses because only musicians a few learned people "get it". If everyone "got it" the world would be a better place, but that's not how it works. Accept it.

...


Good point. I remember the first time I went to see Holdsworth. I started a conversation with the guy standing in line next to me and I asked "what do you play?" ...he said "nothing!" I was like "what? I thought only musicians knew of Allan", he said "I just enjoy good music" and proceeded to amaze me with the amount of good jazz fusion stuff he was into. They ARE out there!

btw, he was a suburby middle aged nerdy looking fellow who worked for the government Agriculture department, not a young fanatic at all. Of course, all other people in the table once we sat down for the concert were guitarrists, drummers, bass players and a magazine critic.

OMG, you met my brother!

a suburby middle aged nerdy looking fellow who worked for the government Agriculture department, not a young fanatic at all.