This post is going to be a bit of a rant, but I'd love to hear other players' feedback and experiences with this sort of thing...

I just got back from a recording session that I did for a guitarist friend of mine. He's a killer player, good songwriter and helluva guy. He insisted on paying me for the session even though I would have thrown him a freebie. This is someone I've gigged with for years in both cover bands and as a sideman in his own original project, so I'd played the songs I was to be recording. That said, when I get set up, I find out that the producer has very different ideas about how one particular song should be recorded.

I don't have any problem with this. I understand that what works live often doesn't work in the studio and visa-versa. I'm being paid to play bass, not produce the album. I could tell that he wasn't digging what I was doing, so I stopped for a bit to try and figure out exactly what he wanted. More on top of the beat? More behind the beat? Play with the kick drum? Play off the melody/rhythm guitar/keys?...

He, the producer, just kept saying "I don't know man, it's a feel thing." After going around and around for a bit, we hit on the right part and the rest of the session went fine, but I've heard other people say the same thing before, and it always drives me nuts. Fortunately today, everyone got a long the entire time, but I've been in situations where the person I was playing for started to get irritated that we all weren't on the same page, yet they are incabable of explaing what they want.

Is there some intangible vibe, feel, whatever? I tend to believe that given the right vocabulary any mystical groove can be broken down- From super vibey reggae, to pounding metal and everyting in between.

I play for a living and feel that reputation and demeanor (or "hang factor), are almost as important as ability and so I try never to unload on those writing the check at the end of the day, no matter how difficult it (they) may be...I'll leave that for cyberspace.

I'd love to know if anyone else has heard the "feel thing", or anything else like it.

Thanks for hearing me out,
b

wow. sorry to hear that. at least you all got along though. i hate when people get angry and it gets out of hand for no reason.

sometimes i hear the "feel" thing thrown around too. Most of the time i think it's more of a EGO thing than it is an actual "thing". That producer was probably just trying to act like some hotshot. Instead of being real and saying what he wanted he just fed you the BS "feel" line as if you weren't good enough. Whatever, he needed to feel superior or something for some reason.

Especially if you play for a living and knew the Cat who you were playing for.

You know, I don't think I'm coming off like a know-it-all, but usually when guys have said stuff like that, it's after somebody's tried to clarify things with musical terminology.
You're probably right that it is a little about people trying to throw their weight around.

Even if it's a "feel thing", I get the feeling that if he really knew what he was talking about, he would be able to describe it. For example, if you were not playing relaxed enough, or not playing with enough conviction, or not locking with the drummer.

Sure. It's part of the territory, and no one is immune. I've often been called in to replace bass parts that a producer has found unsatisfactory. I am obsessed with being great in the studio, even though I don't get to record nearly as much as I would like.

That said, there have been a couple of times that my parts were replaced by someone else. No one is the perfect player for every song, and even on the professional level, one hot studio cat will replace another if there's something that doesn't feel right to the producer. Chances are he's not trying to be a jerk - either they can't explain what they're hearing, or you can't translate that and make it happen. But if you're not the producer, it's not your call.

The main thing is that you don't take it too personally. It sucks having to take criticism, but take it constructively. Try to learn as much as possible from it. Asking questions like "Am I too far ahead or behind the beat?" are valid, but maybe if you took a different tack - like asking him to specifically name a song that has the tone or groove he's looking for - that might give you a more concrete example.

I think sometimes "a feel thing" is used to say" I don't really know what I want, but that's not it."
I dunno, My 2 cents.

I think you're right in that "the feel" thing can be quantified in musical terms IF you have the background.

Having said that, a lot of producers and people in positions of authority don't and that's OK. Civilians listen with far different ears than musicians and that's who you play for and sell to like it or not.

Wasn't it Will Lee who said, "I can't tell you what the groove is but I know when it's there and I know when it isn't"?

Or something along those lines.

It happens and some producers can't explain what needs to be changed. Not that what is going down is bad, just they know it could be better, it isn't what they hear in there head. I was a recording engineer for awhile and saw this happen with some producers. I saw producers dump great tracks and tell the artist they can do better. Everyone else in the control room is looking at the producer like he nuts. Dammed if the artist came up with amazing take.

Also on gigs the great bass player and piano player just not click, and go on for years. People stopped hiring them together. Then years down the road they end up working together again and it all clicks and they get hired together all the time now.

Music is a strange thing and never can tell what is going to work. Some just know when things are working and not. Some have a feel what will be a hit and what won't.

I would say do like you did, go with the flow when session over decide if you think the producer did have a vision or was putting on an act.

It's simply because they don't know the language to express what they want--music theory. I can't count the times I've seen someone claim "music theory tells you what you can or can't play in a musical situation" or "I didn't want my music limited by the rules so I didn't study music theory" and I just shake my head. Music theory has one real purpose: allow musicians to put into words what they are doing with the music.

In my band Deacon Dark, my drummer is very knowledgeable on theory and went to college on a music scholarship. When he needs to explain something he wants me to do, he talks in precise terms that we both understand. If necessary, he grabs a sheet of paper and writes out what he wants--which I can read. From his mind to my hands takes a matter of seconds.

My guitar player is an outstanding musician, but he does not know music theory. This fact does not help or hinder his playing one bit. It does, however, mean I hear the phrase "it's a feel thing" or "you just have to feel it" whenever he is trying to get me to play something specific but has no ability to communicate what he wants. So, I go through the exact same crap as told in the first post of this thread.

So, when I hear "it's a feel thing", my brain just replaces that phrase with: "I'm too lazy to learn how to properly communicate what I want so I'm just going to try and make it sound like you are too weak of a musician to play what I want." In other words, it is just someone trying to justify their own ignorance.

Sounds like you were smart and adult enough to not get too frustrated, and you worked through it in a professional and level-headed manner. That's most important.

It's also laudible that you seek to resolve this more clearly in your head in order to avoid such stituations in the future.

I think the issue has two sides; yes, there are intangable things about the "feel" of music. That's one of its most alluring "features", and what makes it art form.

That said, it sounds to me like what really happened on this session is that the producer simply lacked some of the knowledge and/or communicational skills to properly express his desires.

I'm sure you realize that you can have great conversations with some people, and yet strain to get through even a prefunctory greeting with others. Some people just have great dialog between them. Music is a dialog. Not all people can get together and have great conversations. Some things just "click" for certain people.

Sure, you can talk about theory, and literacy, and its importance in this dialog, since they obviously can impact the ability to communicate...but not all of music's dialog is about that. You converse musically during your playing with the others your are performing with...and the compatibility at that level is that of greatest importance. If this were not the case, musicians with no formal training (some very famous people, you may be surprised to find) would not be able to create such great music together.

I too think that it's frustrating when people can't articulate why things don't seem to be working. I had this experience as a keyboard player on my very first studio session about 25 years ago.

But I've done a lot of playing since then, and I agree entirely that if the feel ain't there, it ain't there - even if it's hard to put into words.

A feel thing is like being in the pocket, sometimes the guitarist is ahead of the drummer and we as the bass player play between the drummer and the guitarist, perfect groove/feel thing song in my mind is Nuggents stranglehold, it grooves. You can play it perfectly but not groove it!
Not usre if that helps.
But feel thing usually means there's no conviction, or you are not on the beat with the others or blending the beat to fill the hole...

That's been the case with all the times people have said it that I've been around.

Just my 2 cents.

I think it's a bit of both. You get guys who just don't know how to communicate in musical terms - who might know what they want, but don't know how to say it.

But, I've known bass players who can play the same exact notes as I do, at the same exact time, and it just doesn't feel like when I play it. So there is an intangible there...

Jeff Pocaro was doing a session for Rickie Lee Jones, and for some reason she wasn't digging what he was doing. Jeff Pocaro!!! Not digging Jeff Pocaro?!?!?! In the end, even the best musicians don't mix.

As to the 'feel' thing, it's both legit, and B.S. It depends on who's saying it. We've all heard people say, 'I don't want to work on theory and technique and time and all the basics -- it's a feel thing.' That is B.S. They're basically saying, 'I'm just lazy, but want to sound deep into music.'

Without actually observing your particular recording session, it's hard to know the motive.

In general, "feel thing" would suggest to me that someone didn't have an issue with your note choices or tone, but rather with the way your bass part worked rhythmically in that song. It could also be that your part was fine on it's own, but was not working with the other parts being laid down on the track.

It can be a VERY subtle thing, too. Sometimes when a player is a little pushy on a song which has a feel that "pulls", the producer might simply tell you to "sit back in your chair" (rhythmically), and that minor rhythmic adjustment makes a lot of difference to the final product.

And yes, it certainly COULD also be a catch-all phrase for someone trying to show what a hip artist they are, when in reality they have no real knowledge of music theory or terminology.

Just make sure that you're really listening to the music being created, and try to check your ego at the door (which can be hard to do!).

Producers that don't know what they think they know are a royal pain in the ass.

Producers that don't know what they think they know are a royal pain in the ass.

Hehe, too true. Reply like this: "jog on"

It's simply because they don't know the language to express what they want--music theory. I can't count the times I've seen someone claim "music theory tells you what you can or can't play in a musical situation" or "I didn't want my music limited by the rules so I didn't study music theory" and I just shake my head. Music theory has one real purpose: allow musicians to put into words what they are doing with the music.

In my band Deacon Dark, my drummer is very knowledgeable on theory and went to college on a music scholarship. When he needs to explain something he wants me to do, he talks in precise terms that we both understand. If necessary, he grabs a sheet of paper and writes out what he wants--which I can read. From his mind to my hands takes a matter of seconds.

My guitar player is an outstanding musician, but he does not know music theory. This fact does not help or hinder his playing one bit. It does, however, mean I hear the phrase "it's a feel thing" or "you just have to feel it" whenever he is trying to get me to play something specific but has no ability to communicate what he wants. So, I go through the exact same crap as told in the first post of this thread.

So, when I hear "it's a feel thing", my brain just replaces that phrase with: "I'm too lazy to learn how to properly communicate what I want so I'm just going to try and make it sound like you are too weak of a musician to play what I want." In other words, it is just someone trying to justify their own ignorance.

I understand this is your opinion, but I have to disagree. Ill tell you why. Say youve been a rock bassist all your life. I mean thats ALL you've ever played. You get a call to do a JAZZ gig. Sure you may know what iii-vi-ii-V-I is, or mixolydian this, or super locrian that, but Im sure it will be quite difficult for you to adjust to a dirty, greasy, laid back blues feel (Ive had an experience with someone like this). Just like Ive met sax players that could play Giant Steps foward and backward, but swung like a rusty gate.

As far as the topic, I gotta +1 with Pacman.

With the new band I get the vibe (feel) thing quite often. It is part of getting used to a new songwriter. For example, we were learning a new song. I played the one part very punched up. But the songwriter wanted it more legato. So he told me "more smooth".

But he will always give me a description. More punk, more funky, more smooth, etc. Saying "the feel is wrong" gets us nowhere. But saying more funky gives me an idea of where he wants to go.

This post is going to be a bit of a rant, but I'd love to hear other players' feedback and experiences with this sort of thing...

I just got back from a recording session that I did for a guitarist friend of mine. He's a killer player, good songwriter and helluva guy. He insisted on paying me for the session even though I would have thrown him a freebie. This is someone I've gigged with for years in both cover bands and as a sideman in his own original project, so I'd played the songs I was to be recording. That said, when I get set up, I find out that the producer has very different ideas about how one particular song should be recorded.

I don't have any problem with this. I understand that what works live often doesn't work in the studio and visa-versa. I'm being paid to play bass, not produce the album. I could tell that he wasn't digging what I was doing, so I stopped for a bit to try and figure out exactly what he wanted. More on top of the beat? More behind the beat? Play with the kick drum? Play off the melody/rhythm guitar/keys?...

He, the producer, just kept saying "I don't know man, it's a feel thing." After going around and around for a bit, we hit on the right part and the rest of the session went fine, but I've heard other people say the same thing before, and it always drives me nuts. Fortunately today, everyone got a long the entire time, but I've been in situations where the person I was playing for started to get irritated that we all weren't on the same page, yet they are incabable of explaing what they want.

Is there some intangible vibe, feel, whatever? I tend to believe that given the right vocabulary any mystical groove can be broken down- From super vibey reggae, to pounding metal and everyting in between.

I play for a living and feel that reputation and demeanor (or "hang factor), are almost as important as ability and so I try never to unload on those writing the check at the end of the day, no matter how difficult it (they) may be...I'll leave that for cyberspace.

I'd love to know if anyone else has heard the "feel thing", or anything else like it.

Thanks for hearing me out,
b

He just didn't "connect" with what you were playing. That's hard to explain past "a feeling", well...without saying "I just don't like it " - and he's not there to like it but to produce it.

Ask him if he knows any basslines or players that he thought may put the right "feel" into the song or are similar. That might give you some more insight into what he's after.

Good luck!

I think saying "It's a feel thing" is fine if he's letting you find your groove for the track. But if he's looking for something specific, as a producer he should be able to tell you what he needs.

I think saying "It's a feel thing" is fine if he's letting you find your groove for the track. But if he's looking for something specific, as a producer he should be able to tell you what he needs.
Yeah should. Not all people communicate as well as produce.

Here's an approach that I sometimes use when a producer or composer can't seem to communicate their musical concepts in a clear way. Ask them to sing the bassline they're hearing in their head. Remind them that they don't have to sing it perfectly, or in tune, and that it might give a better idea of their concept.

It works about half the time. The other half, the "professional" musicians/producers that can't even hum a tune or tap out a feel on a tabletop....well, you're on your own at that point. :scowl:

FEEL is real - but is a subjective term and can vary from person to person. Sometimes bands form because everyone "feels" the music in a similar way - they call that "chemistry". There is not a specific quality that 100% identifies what it is, other than to call it "FEEL".

As many has stated, many musicians have the same ability to play the same notes technically, but rarely will two executions of the same part by different players sound exactly the same.

Also - (citing the OP's tale) - on Monday the person complaining that the "feel" was not right very well could put that recording down for a week, revisit it the following Monday and suddenly find that the "feel" was actually dead on - and because he; A) Hadn't had his coffee yet - B) Just go finished listening to a great Steely Dan CD - C) Just finished a book about recording engineering and production... His ears, minds, feel-receptors were colored in such a way that he simply did not appreciate it at that moment.

Feel is real. But it is very hard to quantify because it is subjective. A really good producer is also an excellent communicator and can take an esoteric concept like "feel" and put it in terms that will make sense to the musicians he/she is working with.

As a player, it is very important to be aware that some people just do not express themselves very well when it comes to defining what they mean by "feel" and you should not take it personally. It can be frustrating when it seems that nothing, no matter what you try, seems to meet with their approval - but being broad and having technical chops that serve you well should give you the tools you need to explore various "feel" possibilities.

[QUOTE=KayCee;4110124]Here's an approach that I sometimes use when a producer or composer can't seem to communicate their musical concepts in a clear way. Ask them to sing the bassline they're hearing in their head. Remind them that they don't have to sing it perfectly, or in tune, and that it might give a better idea of their concept.



That works good. But it's better to hear it from the "musicians" you are playing with, not just a producer.

But watch out; I found myself at odds with a producer who was asking for one thing and demonstrating another lean on the musicians.....and I had a terrible time with the drummer who would never play the same lick twice. His rythyms were good, but he couldn't make up his mind what he was happy with. Drummers can be your best friend but when they start changing styles, it screws your playing up too. :rollno:

The drummer I play with in our classic rock cover band has only been a drummer for 3 years and wasn't even a musician at all before that so he naturally is limited in what he can do. Because he likes a certain style of music (within the generic style of classic rock) he palys those songs with good "feel". For example, we can groove all day to Pink Floyd tunes because he really digs Nick Mason's style and he really "feels" how the kick, snare, toms, hi-hat, etc.. all exist in relation to each other and it then becomes obvious where my bass part fits in to that.

Since he isn't a fan of traditional blues as a style that negatively affects his playing of certain songs we want to do (like Eric Clapton or Bob Dylan songs) because his "feel" is wrong for those songs. From my experience in playing with small jazz combos, blues bands, heavy metal bands and others I can hear specifically what he's doing "wrong" with his drums that's messing up the feel of the song. The guitarist and I have been gradually explaining to him (he knows he lacks experience and is a willing listener to constructive criticism) how good groove is more complicated than just being 'on beat', 'behind the beat' or 'ahead of the beat', and we essentially just analyse every song that doesn't feel right for as many subtle details of performance such as the timing of all percussion parts as well as guitars and bass in relation to each other and to the dynamics, phrasing, and all the other latin-named performance qualities that we have a "feel" for from lots of experience.

Being able to vebally communicate that knowledge of "feel" is difficult, but it should be a vital skill of any good producer.