I have decided to build a 5 string single cutaway for my first bass project. I have one question that may seem odd. Is it ok to use 1 piece of hard maple or must laminates be used. If I construct from laminates which way is better to face the grain for strength. Most beginner books do not touch on this as I'm sure it is to be elementary. Thanks in advance.

you are talking about the neck right? There is one TBer that says one piece is fine... I personally disagree, most big companies use 3 pieces of Maple and glue them together, sometimes you gotta look very closely to see that it isnt 1 piece. I would bet its safe to use one piece if you have a block of Maple that has been aging for years and years in a climate controlled room, which would make the wood very stable. Also it might not be too bad for a four string but Ive heard 5 isnt recommended... having worked with wood since my 4th year of life on this earth, I wouldnt recommend using one piece, since it could warp a timy bit, and a tiny bit is already too much for a neck. Make sure the grain is quarter (quartersawn) and also flip at least the middle piece around, that way all three pieces are working one against each other. Good luck !


By the way, what the hell is your signature about?!?

Thanks for the reply. So if I do 3 pieces of hard maple. I should rip down a 5 or so inch wide piece and lay one strip grain vertical, the next grain horizontal final vertical. Oh...my signature are lyrics from the Primus song Groundhogs Day. One of my favs.

Tony

you are talking about the neck right? There is one TBer that says one piece is fine... I personally disagree, most big companies use 3 pieces of Maple and glue them together,


I don't get that one. 80%+ of the basses out there are 1 piece maple or 1 piece maple with scarf joint. The biggest company out there, Fender, doesn't laminate necks. They've had pretty good success with 1 piece necks over the last 50 years

Really !? oh criss. chu dans'l champ moe tabarn... Ive seen all Ibanez Basses with three or more lams... sorry, I may be wrong. mind you these companies probably do keep their wood stacked somewhere for a while before using it. I personally wouldn't try though.

I don't get that one. 80%+ of the basses out there are 1 piece maple or 1 piece maple with scarf joint. The biggest company out there, Fender, doesn't laminate necks. They've had pretty good success with 1 piece necks over the last 50 years

indeed..
when you use good aged (dry) wood you don't really need a laminate neck..

Really !? oh criss. chu dans'l champ moe tabarn... Ive seen all Ibanez Basses with three or more lams... sorry, I may be wrong. mind you these companies probably do keep their wood stacked somewhere for a while before using it. I personally wouldn't try though.

Oui, un peu ;) Yeah Ibanez do a couple of nice muti-lam ones at a pretty good price point too. As Giel said, it's all about choosing a good piece that's properly dried.

well....i was wondering. If i want 19mm string spacing at the bridge, is there a formula to determinte proper spacing at nut. And also proper nut length. I sketched out my design on paper to scale and I think I left a bit too much meat at the nut. Basically overall neck width went from 3" at bridge to 2" at nut. Any input would be great...thanks.

TOny

2" at the nut is perfectly reasonable for a 5er. I use 1 7/8.

Really !? oh criss. chu dans'l champ moe tabarn... Ive seen all Ibanez Basses with three or more lams... sorry, I may be wrong. mind you these companies probably do keep their wood stacked somewhere for a while before using it. I personally wouldn't try though.

Ben non, t'es pas dan'l champ stie de kalisse... both methods are ok, as long as you have good wood.

I've done both and non of my necks ever warped or twisted...

Ive seen all Ibanez Basses with three or more lams... sorry, I may be wrong. mind you these companies probably do keep their wood stacked somewhere for a while before using it. I personally wouldn't try though.

Ahhhhhhhh-haaaaaaa! Ibenez - the pinnacle of bass lutherie!

guess this means that Fender, Lull, Sadowsky, Warmoth, USACG, etc ... have it all messed up, eh? :rollno:

I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from T2W ...


as for keeping their wood stacked somewhere for a while, even Ken Smith (a regarded expert in multi-lam necks) chooses to age his neck woods for more than a few weeks after they're out of the kiln.

please explain why you wouldn't try building a neck from a single flatsawn or quartersawn piece of wood. what factual basis do you base this on? or maybe it's just a personal opinion that is biased by your dislike for any building technique with the faintest scent of 'old school' tradition?


me personally, I use both 1-piece (flatsawn or quartersawn as requested) and multi-lam necks as suits a particular design and/or client. both work well when built utilizing good wood selection and techniques. both have advantages and disadvantages in their use. both sound and play great. both are stable when a solid design and building technique are utilized.

but ... if you have poor design or building techniques you will see it in a 1-piece neck sooner/easier than in a multi-lam neck IMO/IME. poor building practices are much eacier to hide in a graphite reinforced multi-lam neck. sure, you can see a sloppy glue joint quite easily - but I am specifically talking here about structural deficiencies that will affect the neck down the road.

NYBassMan - if you can establish good design and construction workflows with a 1-piece neck, you can build a solid multi-lam neck with ease. like all things that require learning and skill, root yourself first in the fundimentals and then venture out from there. in doing so, you'll be able to more easily recognize how small changes you make to a design impact the overall neck stability. without this foundation, you'll always be left guessing (and many times guessing incorrectly) why a certain neck performed differently than another of like dimensions. this is what separates someone like a Mike Tobias or Ken Smith from other builders who hack and experiment, but never turn out a consistently outstanding bass of exceptional quality. think of this foundation in building as being similar to the foundation layed with a given language - you start with a foundation of the basics and specific simple phrases and move on from there ... nobody starts a language at a college professor level, and nobody truly communicates deeply with that language unless they first understand how to properly structure each of the working parts. once a level of mastery is reached, the doors of communication are wide open for working at that level ... and one should always be looking to increase their comprehension and skill with that languange, as this leads to an even greater ability to communicate more efficiently and gracefully.

after all, all of our instrument building is really just simply communicating with wood


all the best,

R

thanks for the great reply Rodent. When I get home I'm going to snap a few pics of the wood I purchased. I bought a 7' piece of 8/4 x 10 American Walnut for the body wings. The guys were throwing out a beautiful 4.5' piece of maple. A nice meaty piece 4"X3.5". I also picked up an 8' length of 4/4X5 ultra figured birds eye maple in hopes to use it as a fretboard and possible body lams. I got the plain maple for free but I hope I can use it. It seems plainsawn to my knowledge. I know you said that a piece like that can be useable just hoping it doesn't cup eventually after all is said and done.


Tony

Well...today I ripped up my neck lams. I'm using 3 .75" pieces of maple separated by 2 .5" pieces of walnut. I have them gluing up now. Can anybody help me with setting up my buck bros block plane. What a pain in the butt.

here are some progress pics so far...just started the project today so i'll keep you guys posted.

tony

P.S. The piece of Am Walnut next to my table saw is going to be the body wings.

Hey guys. At what point do you guys cut the neck taper and how does one go about calculating it?? I think I'm at that stage. Tonight the raw wing wood gets glued to the neck and then tomorrow night the shape jig sawed out. It is going to be a single cut so I'm a little confused at this point. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Tony

I normally do a .125 taper measured at fret 1 and just before the neck transition (which is generally somewhere around the 16th fret). That's with a conventional neck transition on a double cut.

good info...i'm thinking i want to go with a 1 7/8" width at neck with a 19mm string spacing at bridge. Unfortunately I don't have the bridge in my posession yet but I will be using a hipshot A I believe. The one with side adjustment for string space. The thing is, I want to know if being that it's a single cut, do I cut the taper in after the wings are on or while I have the neck as a slab. I know where my top wing is going to start so obviously at that point the taper stops there but on the bottom wing the taper will go as normal.

good info...i'm thinking i want to go with a 1 7/8" width at neck with a 19mm string spacing at bridge. Unfortunately I don't have the bridge in my posession yet but I will be using a hipshot A I believe. The one with side adjustment for string space. The thing is, I want to know if being that it's a single cut, do I cut the taper in after the wings are on or while I have the neck as a slab. I know where my top wing is going to start so obviously at that point the taper stops there but on the bottom wing the taper will go as normal.

Wait a sec, my .125 is referring to the taper of the back of the neck. The sides are determined by the positions of the strings.

The biggest company out there, Fender, doesn't laminate necks. They've had pretty good success with 1 piece necks over the last 50 years

I really haven't done much building, but I agree with Phil. I just made a 5 string Fender style neck and have no issues. I also have a 5 string bass with a laminated neck, no issues. I've played 60's, 70's and 00's Fender p and j basses and have had no issues with these necks either. Sure, there are some necks that are duds, or those that were great for years that developed problems. I'd say that there is a potential for issues with both laminated and one piece necks.

I really haven't done much building, but I agree with Phil. I just made a 5 string Fender style neck and have no issues. I also have a 5 string bass with a laminated neck, no issues. I've played 60's, 70's and 00's Fender p and j basses and have had no issues with these necks either. Sure, there are some necks that are duds, or those that were great for years that developed problems. I'd say that there is a potential for issues with both laminated and one piece necks.

Although it is a fact that laminated necks are more stable than 1 piece necks, I also feel that 1 piece are good enough even for 6 strings, given that the piece of wood you're using has straight grain and the species is stiff and stable enough. For example, I would never build a 1 piece neck our of zebrawood because IME it moves too much with moisture changes.

So do I need the bridge in my posession in order to calculate what my neck taper will eventually be? I have stopped construction until I know the answer to this. I do not want to glue on my body wings prior to doing any neck shaping for the taper. I realize on a single cut I am limited as to what I can do to the low side of the instrument from the face anyway. I have all of the rear carving in mind. The other question is; after my truss rod slots are routed, rods installed and then filled. Do I glue my board on before shaping neck. Also in Hiscocks book he cuts the neck profile out on the bandsaw prior to fitting his body wings. I don't think I can do this with a single cut design considering how far up the neck the low side wing connects to it. So many questions....my brain is sizzling, but I'm enjoying every minute of it.

Tony

I'm a bolt-on kind guy for all my builds, so I'm not able to help ya out here with any kind of advice based on actual experience. I know there have been several threads from folks who built neck thru basses, and I'm sure at least one of these was for a single-cut

wish I could help out more ...

R

well....add me to the list of first time "putz" builders who almost left himself short. i was laying out neck taper on my blank and realized i couldn't carry my lines all the way to the end. I ran off the blank about 1.5" down from my 24th fret. I can approach this one of 2 ways and I'd like some opinions. I can add 1 more walnut lam to each side @ .75" thick a piece and then continue my lines. Or option B...since it's a single cut, stop the taper on the low side at the 12th fret and continue as normal on the high side to the cut away. Looking for some input. Thanks

Although it is a fact that laminated necks are more stable than 1 piece necks, I also feel that 1 piece are good enough even for 6 strings, given that the piece of wood you're using has straight grain and the species is stiff and stable enough. For example, I would never build a 1 piece neck our of zebrawood because IME it moves too much with moisture changes.

Wilser, it's good to get your view on this, I've been reading some of the discussions on this topic across the various build forums. My next bass will be a 6, but I'll go with a laminated neck on that one for the stability.

Regarding the zebrawood, I bought a couple of large boards to make bodies from last year but haven't used them yet. Is there movement in the body you made out of zebrawood or is this general comment on the raw wood?

Wilser, it's good to get your view on this, I've been reading some of the discussions on this topic across the various build forums. My next bass will be a 6, but I'll go with a laminated neck on that one for the stability.

Regarding the zebrawood, I bought a couple of large boards to make bodies from last year but haven't used them yet. Is there movement in the body you made out of zebrawood or is this general comment on the raw wood?

For that bass I bought a 10" wide piece of zebrawood 10ft long. I ripped it 3" from the edge in the hopes of using the remainder for neck stringers. The body that came out of this board was 7" wide on each side and it remained stable while I worked it and still is now that the bass is finished. OTOH the 3" x 10ft piece developed a severe bow sideways almost as soon as it was cut and it has kept moving one way or the other as winter turns to spring. I think that if I use 1/4" or so stringers it should be just fine, but I wouldn't use it as the main bulk of a neck.

NYBassMan....I realize you've already glued up your neck pieces, but FYI for future reference....after resawing thicker pieces to smaller dimensioned pieces, it's not a bad idea to let the resaws sit and acclimate for a bit. Resawing can release tensions held in the larger piece. Let the pieces settle for a bit, and recheck 'em for straightness, flatness, etc. Not a bad idea to dimension 'em a little fat initially, to have some extra meat to compensate for possible movement later. I've done single, 2 and 3 piece necks, and they've all held up well. Choose your stock well, learn to "read" it, layout logically, and you should be OK. Unlike what seems to be the common trend around here, I'm not a big fan of the "multi-lam" syndrome. I'm talkin' necks, AND especially bodies. Every lam adds more glue to the piece and robs resonance....my personal opinion.

I went ahead and added a 3/4" strip to either side of my neck block. Once dried I'm going to continue my neck taper angle from the nut all the way to the bottom. It will give my more square surface to glue on the wings, IMHO.

Well...a stroke of good fortune. A friend of mine just passed a beautiful 2.5 sq of Carpathian Elm Burl veneer to me. I think it's either 1/16 or 1/32 thick. I'm not sure. Gorgeous stuff though. Can anyone shed some light on working with this stuff. I was going to lam my body wings obviously before cutting out the shape. However, are there any special procedures to follow when dealing with wood this thin? Like clamping, gluing and such. Thanks guys....so far you've been helping.

Tony

for gluing thin veneers and thinner laminate tops, two simple words are all you need to know to be at your best ...

vacuum bagging


all the best,

R

Vacuum bagging is something I would never have thought of. Do you use something like the spacebags for storage or is this something else?

well I encountered my first snag/difficulty. When cutting the neck taper with the jig saw I realized that I had to leave a decent amount of material outside my line. Any advice other than 60 grit paper and a block to remedy this situation. Thanks a lot.

TOny

Vacuum bagging is something I would never have thought of. Do you use something like the spacebags for storage or is this something else?

a good selection of info and tips for building your own vacuum press can be found here

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm

all the best,

R

well I encountered my first snag/difficulty. When cutting the neck taper with the jig saw I realized that I had to leave a decent amount of material outside my line. Any advice other than 60 grit paper and a block to remedy this situation. Thanks a lot.

TOny

I use routing templates to cut the initial definition of me necks. I have different templates for the various scales and nut width combinations

you can see my templates stacked at the rear of this image that captures several necks in progress

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b253/Rodent65/Basses/Necks_WrappingUpTheWeekend.jpg

all the best,

R

Thanks for the link rodent.

Well...today is the day that I got frustrated beyond help. Did you ever get that feeling on your first build? The one where you think you've screwed everything up and that maybe after all you're really not capable of building one. Today was that day. Just figured I'd venta a tad. Not thinking to highly of myself and abilities today.

:rolleyes:

days like this happen ... and more than just once :bawl: even the big guys toast an occasional body, neck, or entire bass (in the case of a neck-thru)

I have a significant collection of botched necks in various states of completion sitting in one corner of the shop. I keep them as a reminder to never do 'that' again ... sadly, some necks have kin :rollno:


but then you learn from what you did, and apply it on a new neck or body, and move forward. this is exactly why I emphatically suggest that people build something simple and 'more traditional' and without really expensive woods for their first project - you get to put it all together in something that is reasonably priced for your first build, and then when you have it all together you can make another one with all the fancy materials and ground breaking techniques. going this route sure saves a load of expensive wood that will never grace a playable instrument (and don't ask how I learned this)


keep pressing onward - it's all a learning experience. the more you learn, the better you'll build. the better you build, the more you'll want to build another, even better instrument

all the best,

R

well here's where I am so far. The overall depth at this point is 1 1/16" I am building up the body core section with birds eye maple back to 1 5/8". This of course only after I've purchased my router to true the angle from nut to bottom of body.

Tony

I'm not sure that if you gathered a group of repair techs they would agree that a single piece neck - like a Jazz - is a high stability neck. There's stories right here on Talkbass about out of alignment necks - and those are the ones that have been spotted - I though my MIM Jazz was OK until my repair guy sorted it out. My bass tech has told me some other repair stories as well - he always builds multi piece necks.