Hi, After much making fun of by some of my jazzy friends I felt I should take this question to TB.

So I was telling them that I really don't enjoy playing bass. Call me crazy, but I am bored with quarter note rythms. I like when I have to actually a intriguing (and not repetitive) piece of music. AND I can't stand being part of the "Rythm section" it's like my job could be replaced by a metronome. And Jazz solos? They just get on my nerves its just like (with all instruments) ooo look what I can do look here look here! bam bam bam. what I always say is "I'd rather be moved than wowed". And what's with the strict no arco it drives me crazy that there is no variety in tone and quality I like pizz just as much as the next guy, but not when its 100% pizz. It's like explosions in a movie. Some movies need them some shouldn't have them but you shouldn't make a movie with 100% explosions. What would you call it? Ok there, ranting is done, Basicly what I'm asking is, is there others out there that share my views. Please jazz people don't come in here and be all ahh you're stupid, this is a friendly forum.

If you feel so strongly about not playing bass, maybe this (http://www.gameinformer.com/NR/rdonlyres/E29D9F8B-7E1A-4A81-A43A-98869FCC8658/11255/gitfiddle.jpg) is more to your liking.

I like arco in jazz too. It'd be nice to see it more often, IMO, but I'd love to see Ray Brown replaced in the OP trio by a flippin' metronome.

I think you need to listen to a broader variety of jazz, I'm not sure if the basses roll can be replaced by a metronome there is a harmony thing that I don't hear many metronomes doing. I find I can get a variety of different tones playing pizz as I'm sure many others can as well. I'm just wondering loccmttocs if you are mainly a classical player? I dated for many years a flutist from the london sypmphony and she had many of the same comments as you have had in your post especially what you are saying about the solos, I personally don't think all solos are just people trying to show each other how big their d__ks are, I think you need to check out some more music, that is like me saying man what is with all this classical playing I hate just playing what has been wrote, it is just reading that is no challenge, that comment would be false we all know that classical music takes a lot more than just reading the notes of the page, just as good jazz and improvised music has more to it than just showing people hey look what I can do.

I wouldn't say ahhh you're stupid - I would say ahh you're 18 - come back to Jazz in maybe 20 years and then you will appreciate it more! ;)

Seriously I would agree with Neal and say that really you haven't listened to enough and/or tried to understand what great Jazz players are trying to do.

Anybody who thinks that - say... a Miles Davis solo, is all about :

"ooo look what I can do look here look here! bam bam bam"

...has a lot to learn! :eyebrow:

Jazz is a rich and subtle art. At it's best it is an interplay of time melody and harmony with relation to a standard form that creates on the spot composition that is different each and every time it is performed. It is best enjoyed at the moment of performance in the room where it happens. Many listen and have no understanding. It requires quite a bit of energy to listen at the level where the musicians are trying to communicate. It has taken me decades of listening to Jazz to begin to appreciate the complexity of what I'm hearing.

If you wish more understanding continue to listen and study. If not you can return to it later in life and perhaps see things you can't at the moment. There are several fellows that work with me ages 16, 20, 26, 50. We are all musicians and all hear Jazz differently. Admittedly the youngest of those have no patience with it and the oldest of us at times stop working for moments when caught up with the sublime.

Take it or leave it as you choose. To diss it as ego driven selfishness is to miss all the good stuff. While I'm sure you will find ego driven stuff in there, you will also find the depth of the human soul in all its power, frailty, ugliness and beauty, revealed moment by moment as the players work around each other in reference to this often silent structure swimming underneath.

The bass player's role in Jazz is exactly what he makes it. No more, no less. If you are a metronome and that's it, I'd get bored too. I suggest a bass player listen and practice enough that they can transcend their role and speak clearly with their instrument in a conversation of equal weight with their playing partners. The subtle dance is to understand the form, understand the role and then dance around both with whatever feeling is in you at the moment. It is in those moments you will be truly connected to the muse.

I am working a lifetime to achieve this and will never do it as well as I'd like. When I look back in the mirror from whence I came I can see the growth and it's reflection in my life around me.

Thats how it is for me.

Very good post - and great answer to the question! No more needs be said! :)

Right on Phil!!!

+1

Hi, After much making fun of by some of my jazzy friends I felt I should take this question to TB.

So I was telling them that I really don't enjoy playing bass. Call me crazy, but I am bored with quarter note rythms. I like when I have to actually a intriguing (and not repetitive) piece of music. AND I can't stand being part of the "Rythm section" it's like my job could be replaced by a metronome. And Jazz solos? They just get on my nerves its just like (with all instruments) ooo look what I can do look here look here! bam bam bam. what I always say is "I'd rather be moved than wowed". And what's with the strict no arco it drives me crazy that there is no variety in tone and quality I like pizz just as much as the next guy, but not when its 100% pizz. It's like explosions in a movie. Some movies need them some shouldn't have them but you shouldn't make a movie with 100% explosions. What would you call it? Ok there, ranting is done, Basicly what I'm asking is, is there others out there that share my views. Please jazz people don't come in here and be all ahh you're stupid, this is a friendly forum.

I think you've exhibited a great bit of maturity by stating that maybe you're not satisfied playing the quarter notes or just being a part of the "rhythm section."

Possibly, you just need to find a new group of musicians who have the ability to "think outside the box" that may be more musically satisfying to you (and them).

I don't play jazz and have been playing Blugrass bass for nearly 20 years after spending 9 playing banjo (horror of horrors, no actually I love the banjo). I realize my job is to be the foundation for the rhythm section, laying down the quarter notes for everything else to spring forth. I find it just as challenging to be minimalistic in my number of notes and at the same time to be interesting. So, I've gone from being a front man (banjo) to the foundation (with the bass).

After nearly 20 years of listening to my heroes and trying to learn their lines, I'm just now beginning to be comfortable with who I am in regards to bluegrass bass playing.

That's the part that sets Mingus, Brown, Ron Carter and all the greats of jazz apart in their bass playing. The individualism, I think, is a major part of the journey.

Figure out who YOU are, WHO you need to be playing with in a musically satisfying group. And don't worry of you decide the bass isn't your lifetime instrument of choice.

There's tons of bass players here waiting to take your job.:)

I hope this helps,

One of my teachers said that I'd know when I was playing well because I would hear the metronome start to swing ...

AND I can't stand being part of the "Rythm section" it's like my job could be replaced by a metronome. And Jazz solos? They just get on my nerves its just like (with all instruments) ooo look what I can do look here look here! bam bam bam.
Sounds to me like you want to elevate the job of playing rhythm to something more than just burping out time, you want to experiment and think outside, and play moving solos that say something besides "check my chops". Pretty healthy attitude I'd say. Find a like-thinking drummer, pick up a piano or horn, and you have the gig you want, right?

Here are some guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgHNbS3211w) playing some nice rhythm. :smug:

Good luck!

That clip is cool. I've always loved his playing. There is some swinging stuff happening too. Too bad I can really listen to walking chop. That aside, great clip.

Check out this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_tx0vhpu04) one too.

If you feel so strongly about not playing bass, maybe this (http://www.gameinformer.com/NR/rdonlyres/E29D9F8B-7E1A-4A81-A43A-98869FCC8658/11255/gitfiddle.jpg) is more to your liking.

I like arco in jazz too. It'd be nice to see it more often, IMO, but I'd love to see Ray Brown replaced in the OP trio by a flippin' metronome.

I do love playing the bass. It's my life. I listen to things like Edgar Meyer and the old classical music and I listen to the tracks my teacher Robert Black plays. I have listened to jazz, and there was some things I did like, but alot I didn't like. I mean in the future I know I'll probably be in a jazz band but thats probably just because good orchestras are hard to come by. And neal this means yes I am a mainly Classical guy. I listen to classical music more than anything. I hope I answered all the questions but I think I missed a few...

ROCKMYSOCKS, you said you liked certain jazz. What was it?

I didn't like bebop/straight ahead/modern jazz for the first half of my life. I never understood it and never really spent the time. For some crazy reason, I forced myself to listen to Coltrane's "Giant Steps" over and over to try to see what meaning, if any (heh), that could be found behind that flurry of notes. Nobody introduced it to me, nobody give any hints for what to look for. I just said to myself, "someone else obviously values this, lets just see what they're talking about just for kicks." I never turned back since once I got a glimpse of what's possible.

Listening to the famous players can get sometimes boring. Some people just don't do anything for you. I think it's ok to acknoledge that. I'm not a huge Dexter Gordon, Lee Morgan, or Miles Davis fan. I can appreciate it but their cd's are not the ones I usually reach for first. I would suggest tho that you keep seeking out different styles. You don't have to restrict yourself to just bass players. Try piano players, guitarists, etc. I think eventually you'll get to someone and for whatever reason, it hits you right in the gut. I think that's the nectar you should be seeking and not always listening to things that someone else tells you that you need to listen to or you're an idiot or something.

I can see in certain ways that a person could get stuck in thinking that bass just keeps time and jazz is a all about soloing. As Phil says, you just gotta dig deeper. I have a newfound appreciation for walking straight quarter note lines with no rhythmic flairs and rakes and how melodic and expressive that can be in itself - the opposite of what you're complaining about.

In the end, I dont' think there's any law out there that says "You SHALL like jazz". I don't think it's for everybody and maybe you're one of these. If you don't like it, why play it?!? I agree with the others if that if you dig deeper, there's more to find, but if you're not into it, that's fine too.

ROCKMYSOCKS, you said you liked certain jazz. What was it?

In the end, I dont' think there's any law out there that says "You SHALL like jazz". I don't think it's for everybody and maybe you're one of these. If you don't like it, why play it?!? I agree with the others if that if you dig deeper, there's more to find, but if you're not into it, that's fine too.

Well that was a good comment thanks. I agree with what alot of people were saying except the person who was rude in the begining. At the moment I play jazz because I'm forced to. Which is the worst way to appreciate anything when you're forced to do something. Like I just practiced my jazz stuff and opened my simandl book and did an etude and I was really feeling the etude but the jazz piece just felt like it should have ended 20 measures ago. But sadly I really have no choice for weather I play in our jazz band, I'm too nice of a guy to say no my my band teacher and my friends and for a plus side it gets me into the band trip down to hershey park. But if I had the choice I'd probably quit, two days a week is alot when you have 4 other orchestras and lessons once or twice a week and teaching guitar and bass.

You've got a lot of time and playing left in you. To just say you don't like it is shortchanging yourself. This isn't a knock, but don't shut something out cause you're not into it or you might not have an understanding of it that will help you appreciate it more. These things come with time and I'm pretty sure that somewhere along the road you'll see the similarities (and differences) between all kinds of music and it will really foster a better appreciation of the art form. It sounds like you've got a pretty good base (no pun intended) of musical knowledge, just remember that it's all music. Back off if you feel like it's too much, but remember, there's a long road ahead and you never know what can happen!!

At the moment I play jazz because I'm forced to. Which is the worst way to appreciate anything when you're forced to do something. Yeah well, there's your problem right there. I don't think it's jazz per se, it's the way you're playing it and how you're forced into playing in ways you don't want to. Playing music is meant to be enjoyable, not indentured servitude.

Jazz is hard, and playing in conditions where it's like a grind is no fun. I would suggest you keep your mind open towards jazz, don't let the situation you're in become a stigma toward it.

Sometimes it's good to be forced to do things you don't want to, especially when it's good for you. It's easier said then done, but I think if possible you should try to find the value in the situations you're already in. If you can't escape it, you might as well get something out of it. Got lemons...

Cheers.

Here are some guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgHNbS3211w) playing some nice rhythm. :smug:


:D:D:D:D

Someone who I admire who is a creme of the crop jazz bassist likes to say "This (pointing to his very fine bass) is just an amplifier. It doesn't make music. The music is in you and it just comes out through your instrument"

Maybe you don't connect with the music that is inside of the people you are listening to. Listen to other people.

I'm personally not a fan of soprano sax, but occasionally I hear someone play it who really reaches me. There are instruments that I love, but not everyone I hear play them makes music with them that I connect to.

There is a sign up in the Seattle Drum School that I've always loved. It says "Play music, not drums"

Whatever instrument, whatever genre, it's just a voice. Listen to the person and focus on your voice and what you've got to say. If that doesn't come out through the bass, try other instruments. Lots of people start with one thing and find success with something else. Or maybe you haven't found your voice yet.

If you hear my mp3s available online you will hear in a few seconds that I basically agree. I play mostly arco, and use lots of different sound colors, etc.

But, I also like to confront challenges rather than hide from them.
Quarter walking lines notes are boring? Not when Sonny Dallas, Paul Chambers or Red Mitchell Plays them.
Sonny Dallas' work on "Motion" is every bit as sonically interesting to me as the latest Barry Guy cd.
Jazz Bass solos are boring? Not when it is Mingus or Gary Peacock.

I have spent years researching why.
So I think it is better to find out how to make such things interesting.
The Sublties and placement of any given sound whether a complex string multi-phonic or a quarter note walking line is where the music lives and breathes.

*shrug* Sorry if I was rude, but the comments on your part about bassists being replaced by metronomes and how all jazz solos are big wankfests are also pretty flippant.

That said, it sounds like an exposure thing -- you just don't dig a lot of older jazz. More contemporary stuff is probably up your alley -- you could do with some new Wayne Shorter (Beyond The Sound Barrier or Footprints Live!) or pretty much anything else featuring John Pattitucci + Brian Blade. Also check out Dave Holland's quintet, Kurt Rosenwinkel's bands, Greg Osby (mixes classical and jazz frequently) and Brad Mehldau's trio with Jeff Ballard and Larry Grendadier.

All of the above players are pretty much on the cutting edge of jazz today. There isn't much walking, and I don't know how anyone could listen to Wayne Shorter or hear Brad Mehldau and not be moved.

Wow! So many thoughtful and wonderful replies. Maybe jazz just isn't your thing. If that's true right now, I suggest that you focus on the music you love. If that's classical-- fine. That being said, I think you have revealed a somewhat narrow view of the art of jazz and how you, as a bass player, can find, develop, and use your individual voice. As Phil said, "The bass player's role in Jazz is exactly what he makes it."

Just a metronome? No arco? To that I would reply:

Slam Stewart

*shrug* Sorry if I was rude, but the comments on your part about bassists being replaced by metronomes and how all jazz solos are big wankfests are also pretty flippant.

That said, it sounds like an exposure thing -- you just don't dig a lot of older jazz. More contemporary stuff is probably up your alley -- you could do with some new Wayne Shorter (Beyond The Sound Barrier or Footprints Live!) or pretty much anything else featuring John Pattitucci + Brian Blade. Also check out Dave Holland's quintet, Kurt Rosenwinkel's bands, Greg Osby (mixes classical and jazz frequently) and Brad Mehldau's trio with Jeff Ballard and Larry Grendadier.

All of the above players are pretty much on the cutting edge of jazz today. There isn't much walking, and I don't know how anyone could listen to Wayne Shorter or hear Brad Mehldau and not be moved.

- I am totally unmoved by Meldau but that is another thread (that actually exists). Holland is great but has backed pretty far back from the edge.
Shorter's recent quartet is another thing. That is cutting edge jazz. Pattitucci is anything but boring, his arco is incredible and the whole band works together in a wholly unpredictable way.
There is a ton of music that uses all kinds of colors and concepts starting with Braxton, the AACM and Cecil Taylor and well beyond, still I would stress that you research the fine musicians I mentioned and others who artfully do what your orginal post complained of.

If a bass player doesn't like the role he's been put in, maybe he's playing with people who don't listen to each other.

- I am totally unmoved by Meldau

-1

Shorter's recent quartet is another thing. That is cutting edge jazz. Pattitucci is anything but boring, his arco is incredible and the whole band works together in a wholly unpredictable way.

++1!

I saw Wayne's latest quartet in my home town and John Patitucci's arco playing was about the only amplified arco I have really liked - truly awesome! ;)

Q. Am I alone in this thinking?
A. No. To cite just a few examples:

Scott LaFaro broke jazz bass-playing out of the Quarter-Note Box in 1961 with his playing on Bill Evans' Sunday At the Village Vanguard.

Dave Holland made beautiful jazz that left all that behind on his 1972 recording, Conference of the Birds. He's made some amazing recordings since then, too.

Drew Gress plays some outrageously musical stuff, far from The Box, on Ravi Coltrane's 2005 piece, In Flux.

But all those guys can walk quarters inside the box like crazy too. They do what is musical in the particular moment they're in. With that in mind, it might be that you're ready to dig jazz but need to stretch your ears and your contexts a bit (as others have noted more eloquently). And it's worth the effort, because learning to improvise will only help expand your ability to play orchestra music with fresh, musical ears.

(And speaking of eloquent -- wow, Phil! Well said! Words to live by!)

Ultimately though, if you really are frustrated holding down the bottom then the bass might not be the right instrument for you. Because while there are an infinite number of ways to play the bass, that is often what bassists do.

Have fun. Report back in a few.

Scott LaFaro broke jazz bass-playing out of the Quarter-Note Box

among others. I love LaFaro's playing, but I often think he is credited too individually with a broader movement - check out contemporary playing by Steve Swallow or Gary Peacock playing with Paul Bley for example. (I'm not suggesting you don't know of these players, Sam, just that your comment brought the point to my mind).
Sorry for being off-topic, but I think this is symptomatic of a general tendency to have 'celebraties' in jazz, or a small number of hugely famous geniuses rather than a community progressing the music. hence everyone in the world has heard of Coltrane, but almost no-one of John Gilmore, Dewey Redman, Marion Brown etc

There's been a lot of good talk here about listening and open-mindedness and maturity and stuff. But don't forget your heart. If something doesn't move you, it doesn't move you. That doesn't mean walk away and never think about it again. That won't make you mature and well-rounded. I knew from a very early age that swinging jazz music rocked my socks -- it was Glenn Miller or something sorta hokey like that, I can still remember the radio and the breakfast table I was sitting at. I might have been 6 years old or so. The Beatles made me feel the same way at the time. Forty years later it still feels the same way when music excites me or moves me. That's what I'm looking to feed in myself and -- humbly -- to try and provide for other folks.

So: don't write jazz off too early. It's the ocean. But don't neglect to play music you love.

I think the advice given here is really good, but if you don't like playing jazz it's fine. If you find playing a style of music unsatisfying then don't play it.

among others. I love LaFaro's playing, but I often think he is credited too individually with a broader movement - check out contemporary playing by Steve Swallow or Gary Peacock playing with Paul Bley for example.

-I used to feel that more strongly, technically he is just one of the first post-mingus bassists, Mingus also did most of what was credited with in smaller portions.

A few weeks ago A friend who basically produced the 3 cd box of the Village vangaurd stuff remastered directly from the the 2 track sent it to me.
I feel he was a real innovator, where Peacock and Swallow were really freeing things up. LaFaro was really pushing the "inside" right to the edge.

I think that trio really opened up a lot without going "out".
You can really hear it better on the new box set.

Whats on the box-set that isn't on either Sunday at the Village Vanguard or Waltz for Debbie?
Just for the record, the bass playing on those albums is among my all-time favourite.
Fair point that LaFaro was pushing the boundries within a 'straighter' context than the examples I gave.

Whats on the box-set that isn't on either Sunday at the Village Vanguard or Waltz for Debbie?
Just for the record, the bass playing on those albums is among my all-time favourite.
Fair point that LaFaro was pushing the boundries within a 'straighter' context than the examples I gave.

I think the box set has everything. I had a few lps before, I normally won't listen to "jazz" on cd, only LP. But this was free.
I should say that Awallow and Peacock are more my thing but I did finnaly see the light with this trio. They were such innovators.
Steve Lacy often quoted Ezra Pound who said, "Make it New". I think they did.