I know there were already some threads about carpal tunnel and i already read them, but my question is: did some of you who have carpal tunnel found some stuff that can relieve the symptoms?
my right hand is getting worst, i have numbness everyday now, while in the past i had it only ocasionally and for a couple of days only... the doctors want to go for the laparoscopic surgery procedure as they think is the best for a musician since the regular surgery needs way more time to recover and the scar is way bigger. i cant stop to play at the moment since i have many shows in may and june and i really need to play them in order to pay my bills, so, is there any specific exercise, trick you can recommend me? im not very fond of taking pain killers since i have a genetic disease(hemocromathosis- an iron overload disease) that already damaged my liver, so i really would like to avoid pills.
Ice doesnt work as it used to, so, any suggestions are welcome, also, did anyone tried other medical procedures with success? acupuncture? something? thanks in advance

Nuno

Nuno, I've had the surgery and it was quite successful. Having said that, I think I would try and exhaust every possible non-invasive option before considering it again. My teacher has suggested alternating hot-hot and icy cold soaking of the wrists and hands. The key is to do it every day for at least 30 minutes. I've heard very good things about accupuncture as well so maybe a combination of those sorts of treatments will help lessen the symptoms. Believe me, I know what you are going through and i wish you the best in whatever treatment you choose. Just ignoring it will not make it go away.

I have kept it in check with deep tissue massage and acupuncture but it doesn't work for everybody. I am down to just massage every month and doing well.

My massage therapist had to have the surgery.

Jake

Have you tried to find a teacher who might be able to help you adjust your technique so that it's less of a stress on your wrists?

I had CT several years back due to a job in construction when I was roping concrete blocks up onto 3-story roofs... it got better/went away after I moved on to another line of work.

When I switched from guitar to bass I noticed that the CT was becoming a problem again. I found a great teacher - she helped me with hand position stuff that allows me to play without any ct pain issues.

I think she has some info on her web site if you wanna check it out:
http://www.carolkaye.com - it's been a while since I've been to the site so can't really direct you as to specifically where to look.

Good luck - that stuff really sucks!

NUNO - my girlfriend had early stages CTS, she never got to the point of constant numbness, just intermittent tingling and weakness. She has done acupuncture, herbs that got it to an OK point. She's been doing tai chi and nei kung for the last 10 years and she says THAT'S the thing that has done the most good.

Nuno, I wonder if you saw this thread in the "Jazz Technique" forum:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321354

There may be some useful info there. Good Luck and Take Care. I can relate ..... I have some of the same things going on :hmm: .

+1 with ed, try not to get the surgury done, all of these things can be fixed naturally, I had bad problems with CT and started going to a massage therapist and accupuncture and it really helped, I've kept them strong by swimming everyday and doing tai chi. good luck

I am not playing DB but I do have a mild sensation in my wrist that is new. My Chiro is sure its not CT and we are working on stretching and massage. She says she can feel scar tissue that we are tying to break down.

I have noticed that when I type on a keyboard my right wrist is bent badly so I am being careful with that. As well as keeping my wrist as straigh as possible on EB a la Gary Willis.

I bought one of those Dyna Flex Power Ball to stenghten my arms along with going to the gym regularly.

It may be a cumulative issue but I was playing on a blues gig and doing a steady 16th note groove for a long time and I did feel pain. I also played a sub gig with very quick swing tempos around the same time and feel that I may have done some damage then. So its backing off on playing, stretching and playing less when I do play.

I strongly second the advice of adjusting your technique. All of the treatment options may help somewhat but something in the complex motion of playing is continually aggravating the wrist. So, one needs to work with a coach or teacher to parse the diffierent variables that may need adjusting. The major variables are repetition, position, and force. Repetition often can't be changed as the nature of the music dictates the density and speed of repetition. Thus, more attention needs to be given to changing position and reducing force. Awkard positions (e.g., odd or acute wrist angles) place a lot of pressure on the carpal tunnel and inflame the tendons, leading to swelling, nerve entrapment, and pain. Working with a coach to change arco or plucking style can reduce the awkward positions. One might even consider changing to another bow (e.g., from French to German or vice versa). Force can be reduced by playing in a more relaxed manner, using arm and body positions more efficiently, changing strings and setup, etc. Again, a coach would be a great help in this regard.

Surgery success rates are not great so I suggest avoiding surgery until other options have been explored thoroughly.

I don't suffer from any RSI (yet---knock on wood!), but several musician friends of mine have reported very good results with Sharon Butler's stretches. I think the book is called "Conquering Carpal Tunnel Syndrome" or something like that.

Timo

I've posted several times on this before.

I have done the following. All combined have kept it fairly stable.

Alexander Technique
Acupuncture every couple months.
Massage a couple times a month as I can work it in.
Osteopathic Manipulation
Regular use of Carpal Tunnel Braces at night while sleeping to keep from hyperextension.
Occasional use of Antiinflamatories.Of them all Alexander is by far the best thing to do to prevent the conditions where Carpal Tunnel can occur.

Thank you so much for the suggestions, i didnt find an Alexander technique doctor close to me, but ill keep searching, i will try to find a doctor for Acupuncture and i'll try a couple of times and see if it will work, i really want to try all the possibilities before doing the surgery, thanks again and i'll keep you guys posted .


Nuno

The Butler book is very helpful and I also like "Playing Less Hurt" by Janet Horvath, a symphony cellist. I've been dealing with RSI, wrists and forearms, for about a year now and have found accupuncture and deep massage with ultra sound from a chiropractor helpful. I also lowered the strings on my basses and have been giving the Rabbath endpin a try (it seems to take some of the stress off of the hands and arms). I'm also taking Feldenkrais classes taught by a bassist (the jury is out on this so far). I think playing "smarter" to lessen the physical stress and getting enough rest time can't be emphasized enough. Good Luck!

I've had it to the point of permanent day/night pain levels back in the 80's & 90's and managed to get rid of it by slowly taking care about how I played.

It still comes back from time to time, but generally from typing and I try to watch my typing position which gets rid of it.

My ex however just finished getting her right hand done and already had her left done a few years back.

She seems happy, but I would try hard to identify and rectify cause before going to surgery.

Thank you so much for the suggestions, i didnt find an Alexander technique doctor close to me, but ill keep searching, i will try to find a doctor for Acupuncture and i'll try a couple of times and see if it will work, i really want to try all the possibilities before doing the surgery, thanks again and i'll keep you guys posted .


Nuno

Nuno, Look up a Feldenkrais teacher. This method is just as good as Alexander. Switerland is overrun with Feldenkrais teachers and I am pretty sure that many insurance plans in Switzerland cover it.
try to find a teacher whois also a fysiotherapist and I'm sure you'll get the help you need. It takes some patience but it's worth it.
You can PM me if you have more questions.
G

Thank you so much for the suggestions, i didnt find an Alexander technique doctor close to me
We're teachers, not doctors.
Are you near Zurich? Basel?

We're teachers, not doctors.
Are you near Zurich? Basel?

No Don, i know there are several in Zurich and Basel, but i live in Lugano, in the south part, on the Italian speaking Kanton, 30 mn from the Italian border, and sorry for the "doctors":hiding:

Nuno

Just a couple of added thoughts. One week ago today (to the minute) I was in the recovery room after being operated on by an orthopaedic surgeon. I've had minor tendon related problems in my left arm for years, but nothing I couldn't manage by massaging deeply on my left forearm just below the elbow. Then, about two years ago I started to find that playing even a 34" scale elctric bass was causing me pain almost instantaneously. Playing a DB was pretty much out of the question. I switched to a 30" scale bass (on the advice of a medical professional that also played bass) and kept plugging along. (Actually, a Fender Mustang bass is a pretty decent sounding electric in spite of its size. It sounds somewhat like a P-Bass.)

Last summer I experienced sharp pains in my left shoulder and immediately thought "rotator cuff". I tried some of the more passive approaches, rest, moderate exercise and anti-inflamatory medication, but the problem seemed to persist as a mild chronic pain with flare-ups, usually related to reaching above my head.

Finally, this spring it got bad enough that I sought out an orthopaedic surgeon and he did an x-ray, then scheduled an MRI. Upon seeing the results he suggeted surgery to reliefve impingement caused by bone spurs and repair the tendon. When I woke up from surgery I found that my left arm was in a sling but not strapped to my torso. I had won the shoulder surgery lottery . . . my tendons were fine! All they had to do is remove some bone spurs (probably related to an injury that occured in the '80s) and almost instantly the strength returned to my left hand.

I do mean almost instantly too. I actually played my Mustang bass 12 hours after the operation and within a few days I was able to play a 34" scale bass with comfort. Just for the sake of comparison, before the surgery I was doing good to last one measure on a 34" bass and a DB was no longer even in my thought process. I don't know if I'll ever be able to handle a full scale DB again but even the progress I've made in the last week has placed some interesting electric uprights within my reach. Even an NS Design Bass Cello would be a huge step in the right direction and at least I'd have an instrument that can be bowed.

I only mention all of this to bring out one single point, there are other conditions besides CTS that can cause problems. In my case surgery, and only surgery did the trick. I've seen the photos of the inside of the joint and prior to surgery everything was scrunched together like sardines. Other than some residual soreness where they stuck the arthtoscope in and a bit of rawness where they actually trimmed the bone I am experiencing no pain and have regained much of my range of motion.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

but i live in Lugano, in the south part, on the Italian speaking Kanton, 30 mn from the Italian border

Nuno
If you must suffer, you're doing it in a beautiful place. One of our stops was Villa Castagnola au Lac while touring the lakes - Lugano, Geneva, and Como.

If you must suffer, you're doing it in a beautiful place. One of our stops was Villa Castagnola au Lac while touring the lakes - Lugano, Geneva, and Como.

Thats a beautiful hotel Don, its for sure one of the nicest around Lugano, next time you come near by, let me know... we can go out for some fondue and wine:D

Nuno

I second all the preventative solutions and getting to the root of the problem with technique and approach. Janet's book is great, and she is definitely an authority and activist on the subject.

Above all else, warm up before you play! I know it seems hard and sometimes there's no time, but take just 90 seconds to stretch your entire body before you start playing. We're all athletes in a way, just not at the "macro" level. Warm up and take breaks when you feel fatigued or feel pain.

This book has helped me a lot. Also, seeing a chiropractor, great combination for me.
http://www.sportstouch.com/
Peace.
ASG

I bought a Mustang specifically for that reason

combination of narrow string spacing and shorter reach solved my wrist problems right away

the mustang allowed me to keep playing

I bought a Mustang specifically for that reason

combination of narrow string spacing and shorter reach solved my wrist problems right away

the mustang allowed me to keep playing


That's pretty much the story for me as well. In a short span of time I went from several hours a day on the bass to not being able to last one minute. I sold a Warwick and bought a Mustang and I really have goten attached to the Mustang. In another week or so I'll be ordering another Warwick, a custom shop fretless Corvette Std with a 30" scale and a wenge neck. Basically this signifies my commitment to staying with short scale basses for the duration.

By the way Tolson, I really dig your Avatar avatar. My speaker cab is an Avatar 1x12".

I have the Japanese reissue Mustang which gets most of the gig time because it has the most comprensive sound (highs and lows). It is also well-balanced--not as neck heavy as others and has a nice "Jazz bass" type of tapered neck.

I also, found a Musicmaster (1971) for $299 which I modded with an EMG SES "Select" pickup (much quieter and only $25)---still it's a bit muddier sounding then the Mustang. Also added a Schaller 4-String Roller Bass Bridge (Schaller's versatile solidbody bass bridge features threaded roller saddles. They provide smooth tuning and permit variable string spreads from 2-3/32" to 2-1/2" (53.39mm to 63.50mm), ideal for custom neck widths) to improve the intonation ability.

The Musicmaster makes for a solid #2 gigging bass.

The main backup and practice guitar is a Squire Vista Musicmaster reissue ($199). A solid player but still a bit muddier than the Mustang.

All three are wired with TI jazz flats.

I have yet to find any short scales that I like as well as the Fenders and I have tried several others more and less expensive. I probably would be more inclined to get a second Mustang than anything else right now.

The Avatar 112 (Neo) was ok except when running at high volume with my tube amp (YBA200). It was paired with an Avatar 210 (Neo) and I was hearing strange harmonic speaker distortion at high volume. Took me awhile to figure out it was the 112 and not the amp. I am now running the 210 on top of an old Carvin 115 (with an Eminence Kappa 500w speaker) and finding it's a much better match for the Traynor YBA.

Since both the cabs handle the same wattage and have similar efficiencies I'm getting much better and higher volume. I've heard tube amps are at their best with 15" speakers.

So the 112 will go into a backup role.

Sounds like a nice collection of instrments. At the moment my other "bass" is a Fender Jaguar Bass VI, which is as close as I'll evr come to the Bass VI of the '60s and '70s.

what strings on your mustang?


btw--I'm not sure I had carpal but my left wrist was hurting bad (even turning red) when I was playing a full size PBass and Jbass frequently.

when I changed to the Mustang the wrist pain went away immediately---so I'm a believer in short scale for me----I have small hands

I doubt I will ever buy another full scale bass

what strings on your mustang?


btw--I'm not sure I had carpal but my left wrist was hurting bad (even turning red) when I was playing a full size PBass and Jbass frequently.

when I changed to the Mustang the wrist pain went away immediately---so I'm a believer in short scale for me----I have small hands

I doubt I will ever buy another full scale bass

That almost sounds like tendonitis (just a non-professional opinion here). I had to do a presentation on CTS once as part of my duties as safety man where I worked. CTS, tends to be painful at night. Another thing that happens with CTS is that you find yourself dropping things inadvertently.

My experience was somewhat similar although I don't recall my wrist ever turning red. I did have a lot of itching under the skin of my wrist when I played a long scale bass. As soon as I laid of and played a 30" bass the problems went away. Since the surgery to correct problems in my shoulder the situation is much improved but I still feel better when I play a short scale so that's what I'm going to stick with.

Guys, this is the Double Bass forum, an although i thank you for the interest, i play Double Bass and theres no way im going to buy a electric bass to save my wrists:D .
The only mustang i wouldnt mind owing is the car
cheers

Nuno

sorry--I didn't realize that--however, perhaps it livened things up a bit?

are there short-scale DBs ? :)

Switching to a shorter scale instrument to solve a wrist problem seems to me analagous to the guy whose fingers are always cold due to poor circulation, so he "solves the problem" by turning up the heat.

Guys, this is the Double Bass forum, an although i thank you for the interest, i play Double Bass and theres no way im going to buy a electric bass to save my wrists:D .
The only mustang i wouldnt mind owing is the car
cheers

Nuno

Unfortunately, the DB has been nearly impossible for me to play, probably most of my life, and believe me I've tried. (My tendons have always been a bit funky, even as a teen. By carefully maintaining classical technique I've been able to play guitar for over 40 years without problems but even BG is pushing it.) I can handle an EUB but at that point I figure I'll just switch to BG and use four-finger technique. I even tried Simandl on the 34" BG but it still hurt so I switched to a short scale and four-finger technique.

Best wishes on the CTS problems. You might look into Shiatsu massage, it helps some folks to relieve symptoms. I might only add that if you played a Mustang bass it would fit in a Mustang car. :)

Switching to a shorter scale instrument to solve a wrist problem seems to me analagous to the guy whose fingers are always cold due to poor circulation, so he "solves the problem" by turning up the heat.

In my case it was suggested by two medical professionals, one a bassist (that grew up hanging around Ron Carter's place) and then went into accupunture etc, the other an ortho surgeon that has been keeping me wired together for years. They were unanimous is suggesting that I was simply asking more of my tendons than they were able to give. I love the DB, it's probably my favorite instrument but it's simply out of the question for me.

I still like to lurk in the DB section as much as possible. I'll be talking to my ortho surgeon this week and see what his thoughts are on a carpal tunnel release but ultimately it's probably for naught. Small hands and big basses don't mix well IMO.

Of them all Alexander is by far the best thing to do to prevent the conditions where Carpal Tunnel can occur.

I've been aware if it for several years but lately (as I my physical deterioration accelerates into middle age) I'm becoming more curious about The Alexander Technique. There's very little detailed info on the web and i don't know anyone who's done it. I'm probably going to start it soon but I'd like to become a little more educated before I choose a teacher. Any words of wisdom youse got I'm all ears.

jeff

There's very little detailed info on the web and i don't know anyone who's done it. I'm probably going to start it soon but I'd like to become a little more educated before I choose a teacher. jeff
Alexander said "You can't tell a person what to do because the thing you have to do is a sensation." As Aquinas (himself an admirer of Aristotle and Maimonides) said, "There is nothing in the intellect that was not first a sensation." That is to say, our knowledge is based on sensory experiences. If I say "purple", it is meaningless but for the fact that you have had a sensory experience of purple. The Alexander Technique gives you experiences in responding to stimuli that you haven't had before. Therefore, a description of it cannot register meaningfully.
Having said all that, read this: http://www.alextech.demon.co.uk/wac203.htm
It was written by John Hunter, an AT teacher and great musician.
The fact is, you could read ten books and not really know any more about the work than you will get from this.
I know teachers in Vancouver and can guide you if wish.

I know teachers in Vancouver and can guide you if wish.

Yes please.
jeffbonny AT shaw.ca

I am not playing DB but I do have a mild sensation in my wrist that is new. My Chiro is sure its not CT and we are working on stretching and massage. She says she can feel scar tissue that we are tying to break down.

I have noticed that when I type on a keyboard my right wrist is bent badly so I am being careful with that. As well as keeping my wrist as straigh as possible on EB a la Gary Willis.

I bought one of those Dyna Flex Power Ball to stenghten my arms along with going to the gym regularly.

It may be a cumulative issue but I was playing on a blues gig and doing a steady 16th note groove for a long time and I did feel pain. I also played a sub gig with very quick swing tempos around the same time and feel that I may have done some damage then. So its backing off on playing, stretching and playing less when I do play.

Hello Steve Clark, since your are in London Ontario, I thought I would respond and suggest maybe trying the Alexander technique. I had long time elbow pain issues that would sometimes flair up when playing electric bass (also bass trombone) for extended periods. I found an Alexander Technique teacher and went once a week for a year. The technique aims for proper body alignment and reducing opposing muscle tensions. After a years time the pain was completely gone and still pain free. The situation started 20 years ago when I was heavy into the weight lifting. The teacher I went to is Paula Althouse. I found her by doing a google search.

The best trained teachers in Canada are members of CanSTAT. http://www.canstat.ca/main_e.html The site has a teacher directory. You'll find Paula there.

This was recommended by a physical therapist and helped two friends of mine: Touch the tips of all your fingers and thumb together, and wrap a heavy rubber band around them. Practice opening you hand against the resistance of the rubber band. Do this a dozen times several times a day.

bridge in front of your belt buckle, neck at min 45 degrees = happy wrists!

FWIW, Mark Dresser studies the Alexander Technique; I just met his teacher.

Just a couple of added thoughts. One week ago today (to the minute) I was in the recovery room after being operated on by an orthopaedic surgeon. I've had minor tendon related problems in my left arm for years, but nothing I couldn't manage by massaging deeply on my left forearm just below the elbow. Then, about two years ago I started to find that playing even a 34" scale elctric bass was causing me pain almost instantaneously. Playing a DB was pretty much out of the question. I switched to a 30" scale bass (on the advice of a medical professional that also played bass) and kept plugging along. (Actually, a Fender Mustang bass is a pretty decent sounding electric in spite of its size. It sounds somewhat like a P-Bass.)

Last summer I experienced sharp pains in my left shoulder and immediately thought "rotator cuff". I tried some of the more passive approaches, rest, moderate exercise and anti-inflamatory medication, but the problem seemed to persist as a mild chronic pain with flare-ups, usually related to reaching above my head.

Finally, this spring it got bad enough that I sought out an orthopaedic surgeon and he did an x-ray, then scheduled an MRI. Upon seeing the results he suggeted surgery to reliefve impingement caused by bone spurs and repair the tendon. When I woke up from surgery I found that my left arm was in a sling but not strapped to my torso. I had won the shoulder surgery lottery . . . my tendons were fine! All they had to do is remove some bone spurs (probably related to an injury that occured in the '80s) and almost instantly the strength returned to my left hand.

I do mean almost instantly too. I actually played my Mustang bass 12 hours after the operation and within a few days I was able to play a 34" scale bass with comfort. Just for the sake of comparison, before the surgery I was doing good to last one measure on a 34" bass and a DB was no longer even in my thought process. I don't know if I'll ever be able to handle a full scale DB again but even the progress I've made in the last week has placed some interesting electric uprights within my reach. Even an NS Design Bass Cello would be a huge step in the right direction and at least I'd have an instrument that can be bowed.

I only mention all of this to bring out one single point, there are other conditions besides CTS that can cause problems. In my case surgery, and only surgery did the trick. I've seen the photos of the inside of the joint and prior to surgery everything was scrunched together like sardines. Other than some residual soreness where they stuck the arthtoscope in and a bit of rawness where they actually trimmed the bone I am experiencing no pain and have regained much of my range of motion.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

I posted about my problem under the "basses" section & have had only one reply. I Guess I should have started here. My problem turned out to be a badly herniated disc in my neck. I've suffered from pain & numbness from my neck down to my fingers off & on for over 10 years. I know several people who are dealing well w/ CT, I don't want to confuse the 2 problems, and try to rush anyone into surgery. However, I believe that in many cases, if all other options fail, surgery may be the best option for many such conditions. This should only be done after seeking several highly qualified opinions and trying other treatments 1st. Don't let anyone rush You into it. I had an operation called an anterior cervical disectomy 3 weeks ago. The disk was removed & the 2 vertabra fused. The disk was compressing my spine and the nerve root of all the major nerves in my left arm. Bone spures were there too, and my condition may have been even worse than yours(in all due respect). Years of physical theropy and swimming and other treatments simply couldn't do the trick. Some of the problem was bass related, some from other factors(highscool football 30 years ago, a bike wreck...). Playing the bass made the pre-existing problem worse over time. I agree with the above info on repetitive stress injuries as well. Some surgeries give immediate results, mine will be gradual over a 2-3 month period. This is a serious yet routine operation with success rates over 90%. There are NFL players who have had this operation. My point here is that choosing surgery as the final option is not something to fear. In one of the above posts, someone said that surgeries have limited success. I respectfully request a clarification as to which specific surgery was being referred too. The statement may be correct about some surgeries, but please be specific and don't generalize. This can be misleading. Please directed us to your source of information. A good place to start a search for info is MedlinePlus.com. I'm sorry to hear about other peoples problems, but it's also nice to know that I am in good company. Good luck to us all.

P.S. I'd love to hear from anyone with my problem & share info on recovery. I had a chance to talk to Paul Ellison about this & he said a herniated disk is a common problem w/ bass players. I sugjest that anyone suffering from any kind of arm pain ask your Doc about disk problems. If a Doc or Chiopractor says You don't need an xray, find another one who will, then compare what they say. If it's a disk problem, it probably will NOT need surgery, don't let me worry You!!

I strongly second the advice of adjusting your technique. All of the treatment options may help somewhat but something in the complex motion of playing is continually aggravating the wrist. So, one needs to work with a coach or teacher to parse the diffierent variables that may need adjusting. The major variables are repetition, position, and force. Repetition often can't be changed as the nature of the music dictates the density and speed of repetition. Thus, more attention needs to be given to changing position and reducing force. Awkard positions (e.g., odd or acute wrist angles) place a lot of pressure on the carpal tunnel and inflame the tendons, leading to swelling, nerve entrapment, and pain. Working with a coach to change arco or plucking style can reduce the awkward positions. One might even consider changing to another bow (e.g., from French to German or vice versa). Force can be reduced by playing in a more relaxed manner, using arm and body positions more efficiently, changing strings and setup, etc. Again, a coach would be a great help in this regard.

Surgery success rates are not great so I suggest avoiding surgery until other options have been explored thoroughly.

This is the one I was looking for. I agree with everything You have said. It's all great advise & I will follow it as I return to playing. It's the statement "surgery success rates are not great" that I question. I've read that the success rate of many wrist/arm/shoulder/neck surgeries is very high. Please tell us which ones You believe have a low success rate. I would like to read up on the subject and learn more.
Thank You