I once played with a band. It was just finishing up the night. The girl that plays the gig asked me to sit in. She said she likes to see me play. Well, there was also another guitarist and vocalist playing with me. We played songs like Mustang Sally and Stormy Monday. Me, being the crazy, spaced out player I am was throwing in all kinds of fills, trill, and spills. I heard the drummer yelling my name. Between songs we suggested I have to watch him. Now, he's just playing really simple ****, few accents and no rolls. So, after the set, he starts giving me this ****,that I need to watch him(when, I can feel his energy and know he exists onstage). I was also told I play too many notes. I just told him that is how I play. Jesus Christ, Mustang Sally???? Boring to me. Then he started giving me more ****. He once told me he admires Tery Bozzio. So do I. Have you ever seen that bastard play?? Killer,all over the place. So, I was a little perterbed. I said, Why don't you play more like Bozzio?? Why not? So after turning down the bassists gear, I just left shaking my head at him. Since then, I hear he wants to apologize. I can hear that. But WOW!!

I once played with a band.
Kinda obvious why it was just once. ;)

Kinda obvious why it was just once. ;)

That is one more than you have played in

Maybe you WERE playing too many notes.

That is one more than you have played in
You sure about that? ;)

Maybe, but the audience thought it rocked. My current bands, and yes ibnzneksrul I play in multiple bands, don't ever bitch about how I intepret songs. I am not a note for note player. I play what I feel. Maybe ibnzneksrul you should come to one of my gigs and see for yourself. And Higgie maybe you should come into a pub where I am playing.

I was throwing in all kinds of fills, trill, and spills.

In Stormy Monday????:eyebrow:

well ibdode I saw your profile. You have a lot of influences that I have. Don't know your caliber, I can't insult you, but I do have a 23+ yrs exp. I have also grabbed influences from the vault, ala Billy Sheehan, Flea, Jaco, Michael Manring, and Joey DeMaio to drop a few names. I love the players you listed, but keep up with the times. Their is a lot of music out there, and furthermore, by the looks of how many posts you do, you don't seem like you play a lot as it is.

In Stormy Monday????:eyebrow:
Not like you think,although, that would be something to see. Funny! I think what pissed off the drummer was Play that Funky Music.
I don't believe in playing note for note beacause it makes me feel like a machine.

well ibdode I saw your profile. You have a lot of influences that I have. Don't know your caliber, I can't insult you, but I do have a 23+ yrs exp. I have also grabbed influences from the vault, ala Billy Sheehan, Flea, Jaco, Michael Manring, and Joey DeMaio to drop a few names. I love the players you listed, but keep up with the times. Their is a lot of music out there, and furthermore, by the looks of how many posts you do, you don't seem like you play a lot as it is.
Wow. You must be waaaaaay better than me. That is, except for the "too many notes" thing. Thanks for the gig invite, but no thanks. Bassists who constantly overplay are boring IMO.

I don't overplay. I do augment. Are you one of those TAB reading types? If so, YAWN!

It seems to me that you have a bit of an attitude problem as it is, regardless of who your influences are or how many notes you were actually playing.

There's no purpose in coming onto Talkbass just to insult people.

I don't overplay. I do augment.

I don't know guy, to each their own, different strokes and all that. I wasn't there.

It does appear that you got under the drummers skin and pooched his grove which to me would be kind of an uncool thing to do at someone elses gig as a sit in.

I've been on every end of that equation at one time or another. The guy that overplayed, the guy that invited the sit in that went bad, the guy that had to deal with the sit in that went bad, so I don't want to throw any rocks. It's a pretty uncomfortable place for everyone.

I had that Wild Cherry tune shoved down my throat last night and I butchered it too. I hate that friggan song.

It seems to me that you have a bit of an attitude problem as it is, regardless of who your influences are or how many notes you were actually playing.

There's no purpose in coming onto Talkbass just to insult people.

Sorry Cerb, I didn't come here to insult. But if someone gives me a little tude, I will give it back. So what else do you want to tell me??

Steve, I do believe I upstaged him, but not intentionally. I have sat in with him and members of his band quite a few times. He is actually find of , sort of a friend. We drink together. The bassist loves my ****. I do admit to "showing off" a bit. She's a good friend and I can do that. Funky music is a "lipstick" song for sure. That is why I took it elsewhere. It seems people here would just play that song as it was tabbed. That is been done. I hate repition. The band I play in feels the song and takes it into space. It lets us all create something, I know I learn **** while doing that.

I had that Wild Cherry tune shoved down my throat last night and I butchered it too. I hate that friggan song.+1
I double-dislike it because I vividly recall losing VERY fun rock gigs in the 80's to "disco".

It got called out a few weeks back so it came out. Actually it was funny to play.....and watch the dance floor(where to look when a song is not your favorite). Our drummer is a jazz drummer/lover so he laughs at it too....and looks at the dance floor.

It sounds to me that you are a showoff with no sense of time.


Congrats. You may as well play guitar.

I once played with a band. It was just finishing up the night. The girl that plays the gig asked me to sit in. She said she likes to see me play. Well, there was also another guitarist and vocalist playing with me. We played songs like Mustang Sally and Stormy Monday. Me, being the crazy, spaced out player I am was throwing in all kinds of fills, trill, and spills. I heard the drummer yelling my name. Between songs we suggested I have to watch him. Now, he's just playing really simple ****, few accents and no rolls. So, after the set, he starts giving me this ****,that I need to watch him(when, I can feel his energy and know he exists onstage). I was also told I play too many notes. I just told him that is how I play. Jesus Christ, Mustang Sally???? Boring to me. Then he started giving me more ****. He once told me he admires Tery Bozzio. So do I. Have you ever seen that bastard play?? Killer,all over the place. So, I was a little perterbed. I said, Why don't you play more like Bozzio?? Why not? So after turning down the bassists gear, I just left shaking my head at him. Since then, I hear he wants to apologize. I can hear that. But WOW!!

Lowner? Is that you?

I think you have to separate the things... Your desire to spit notes and a band situation.

Take a look at my myspace page (in my signature below). There are 4 songs there.

One is my solo stuff. Can't have more notes than that. :)

Number 2 and 3 is my band in the early 90's. A lot of space for "pyrotecnics" but the song is still more important.

Number 4 is a rehearsal with a regular rock/pop band. I do the same thing during the damn entire song. Very few notes...But it is all good, it is not in the notes, it is in the groove.

I played w/ a jazz singer around 94, she had a song were I would almost sleep. Only root notes every 5 seconds or so... But it was the most apropriate to the song.

Bruno.

im not normally one to talk ****, but all of this talk about upstaging and playing all kinds of fills, trill(s), and spills during a song like mustang sally leads me to believe your playing sounds like your alias.

im not normally one to talk ****, but all of this talk about upstaging and playing all kinds of fills, trill(s), and spills during a song like mustang sally leads me to believe your playing sounds like your alias.

HAHA!

The most telling thing to me is the famous upturned nose comments like "oh you must be a TAB READER" and "im not some note for note player"...

If you hate playing WHAT THE SONG IS SUPPOSED TO SOUND LIKE then go and play jazz mate. Fredom to do as you please but throwing all of that s*** into mustang sally (no matter how boring it may be) would sound like ass to me. The drummer was maybe thinking about how the audience was seeing it. Sounds like you were showing off. Have a bit of humility epecially in a sit in situation.

Were you getting payed? If so, do as you are told. At the end of the day they are your boss for that night.

Man! You're one classic example of someone who's trying hard to be a bass player. First of all you're not playing as a soloist, you're in a band and worst, just sitting in! Be cooperative man! You're not the superstar with the spotlight! If you find the band's repertoire to be boring for your taste then don't jam or sit-in with them. Here's my suggestion, go get yourself a double bass and play every concertos of Botessini, Dragonetti, Kousevitsky and Bach Suites that you can. I guarantee you that you won't get bored there'll be enough notes for your damn itchy fingers there!:D

...oh I don't think they come in tabs though:p

man it sure sounds like i'd wanna hang out with you!

I think you have to separate the things... Your desire to spit notes and a band situation.

Take a look at my myspace page (in my signature below). There are 4 songs there.

One is my solo stuff. Can't have more notes than that. :)

Number 2 and 3 is my band in the early 90's. A lot of space for "pyrotecnics" but the song is still more important.

Number 4 is a rehearsal with a regular rock/pop band. I do the same thing during the damn entire song. Very few notes...But it is all good, it is not in the notes, it is in the groove.

I played w/ a jazz singer around 94, she had a song were I would almost sleep. Only root notes every 5 seconds or so... But it was the most apropriate to the song.

Bruno.
Excellent response and going to your page was the perfect exclamation point.

Did I say I like your playing?:D

If you hate playing WHAT THE SONG IS SUPPOSED TO SOUND LIKE then go and play jazz mate. Fredom to do as you please but throwing all of that s*** into mustang sally (no matter how boring it may be) would sound like ass to me. The drummer was maybe thinking about how the audience was seeing it. Sounds like you were showing off. Have a bit of humility epecially in a sit in situation.

Were you getting payed? If so, do as you are told. At the end of the day they are your boss for that night.
Like I said, I was just sitting in. End of the night kind of thing. After reading some of these posts, it almost sounds like you all have this impression of notes coming out like an M-16. It's not like that at all. I know how to groove and stay in the pocket. But as I play a lot of these songs, I like to throw in stuff. Kind of funny, though. People in clubs mostly other musicians really like what I do, and you people here who are supposed to be bassplayers are kind of downing me. I don't get it. Would love to watch you play sometime. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think you have to separate the things... Your desire to spit notes and a band situation.

Take a look at my myspace page (in my signature below). There are 4 songs there.

One is my solo stuff. Can't have more notes than that. :)

Number 2 and 3 is my band in the early 90's. A lot of space for "pyrotecnics" but the song is still more important.

Number 4 is a rehearsal with a regular rock/pop band. I do the same thing during the damn entire song. Very few notes...But it is all good, it is not in the notes, it is in the groove.

I played w/ a jazz singer around 94, she had a song were I would almost sleep. Only root notes every 5 seconds or so... But it was the most apropriate to the song.

Bruno.

I went to your page. Your tunes are bitching! I know what you mean about the root note "every 5 seconds".


And to the poster about me trying too hard to be a bass player...... I disagree. If I was trying too hard, I would have to quit all my jobs(yes, I work more than one), and sit home all day with my bass on. I mostly practice for an hour a week. It is usually to brush up or learn new songs that one of my 2 bands wants to play. I've had to learn 3-4 sets of music in a couple of weeks, and have them ready for 1 practice then a gig in the same week. Maybe that is trying to hard. I don't know, but my bands are amazed, knowing my work schedule, that I have the music down and ready for a gig. I've played songs live, that I have only heard on the radio. A little watching the guitarist for placement, but mostly learning it off the cuff. I used to do a lot of open mics where I was playing songs that I've never known. I guess that is practice, but it got me to play with strangers, whom some of them have joined bands that kept money in my pocket. I was in a band once that were so uptight about "note for note". I did good with it, but after being away from them for 7yrs I found out they are still in the "garage".

Maybe, but the audience thought it rocked. My current bands, and yes ibnzneksrul I play in multiple bands, don't ever bitch about how I intepret songs. I am not a note for note player. I play what I feel. Maybe ibnzneksrul you should come to one of my gigs and see for yourself. And Higgie maybe you should come into a pub where I am playing.

If you were in London I would probably consider it.

I wasn't being rude, I was simply stating, that if someone told you that you were playing too many notes, maybe they were right?

Didn't mean to cause any offence, mate!

There is a reason why Mustang Sally or Stormy Monday have such simple bass lines.
It is NOT because the guy who came up with them wasn't proficient enough.
Maybe in the future you will understand that there is much, much more to proper playing than being flashy.
It's cool that you play like you feel it. It could be even cooler if you played to make the song sound good.

Like I said, I was just sitting in. End of the night kind of thing. After reading some of these posts, it almost sounds like you all have this impression of notes coming out like an M-16. It's not like that at all. I know how to groove and stay in the pocket. But as I play a lot of these songs, I like to throw in stuff. Kind of funny, though. People in clubs mostly other musicians really like what I do, and you people here who are supposed to be bassplayers are kind of downing me. I don't get it. Would love to watch you play sometime. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You were acting like the drummer was out of order telling you to calm down. Maybe you were playing fine and maybe not. I wasnt their so cant comment on that. Your attitude in following posts and even in the one quoted make you sound like a bit of an a$$.
I cant judge your playing but a drummer you played with can. He asked you to calm down, step back and think about it. Maybe he had a point man. Nobody is perfect and yes that does include you. Even with your 25+ years experience.

There is a reason why Mustang Sally or Stormy Monday have such simple bass lines.
It is NOT because the guy who came up with them wasn't proficient enough.
Maybe in the future you will understand that there is much, much more to proper playing than being flashy.
It's cool that you play like you feel it. It could be even cooler if you played to make the song sound good.

I agree here. We should serve the music, not the other way around. If someone tells me I am playing to many notes, I will for sure play less.

The way to measure if YOU as a BASS player is playing mustang sally in a great way, is not how many notes you play. Open your eyes. Look around. If everyone is dancing, moving, then you are nailing it. That's the purpose of this song.

When we play music, we are telling a story. If you tell a simple story, everybody understand and likes it. If you tell a complex one, fewer people will understand. When you play mustang sally, you are telling a story that everybody knows, and they like and want to hear again. If you add complexity, most people won't like it. "Where is the story I know? This sounds different...".

Interestingly enough, in my other current band, stones in pockets (http://www.myspace.com/stonesinpockets) my bandmates ask me to play MORE notes (because they love the fretless sound) and I try to keep it to as few notes as possible. They are musicians, but with the band, I am not playing for musicians. I want to reach as many people as possible.

Take a look at Billy Sheehan. I love Billy. His most sucessful song, "to be with you" with Mr. Big, is probably the song where he plays less notes of all his songs. :) Doesn't mean the guy can't play, do you agree???

Take the beatles... Simple bass lines (in terms of "number" of notes). Man, those bass lines are incredible! What a story do they tell! I wish I can do that! (and sell millions and millions of records) :) :) :)

So, if someone tells you "play less", play less. They are probably right.

Try to see a Victor Wooten video called "making music". He talks a little about this. The video shows the recording of a song for his album. He shows how he created the song, with 10 thousand different things going on in the bass. When it is time to record with the band, he cuts out to probablty 1/10th of the notes. Check it out.

The bass player is nt important, the drummer is not important, the guitar player is not important. The MUSIC is important! Serve the music!!!:bassist:

If you were in London I would probably consider it.

I wasn't being rude, I was simply stating, that if someone told you that you were playing too many notes, maybe they were right?

Didn't mean to cause any offence, mate!

Sorry Higgie, I was just lashing out because I thought you bassplayers would laugh and share some kind of story with it. I felt like a piece of meat in a lion pit for a while.

the D,
I know I am far from scraping the edge of perfection. I love to watch live music. I would rather see a band interpret a song in their way, opposed to "playing like the record". The bands that create within the song are the ones I enjoy seeing. I must apologize I have seen quite a few Grateful Dead concerts and really liked the fact they can take a song and bring it to another dimension. Improvisation is what a true musician should posses. It's like saying here are my thoughts. It's like our fans in my band. If we played the same routine, they would tire and not be so in to seeing us. We learn new songs, change songs in our list, keep it fresh. Sometimes an extended solo or extra chorus adds a freshness. Going into a loose jam and going into another song is a treat.

I agree here. We should serve the music, not the other way around. If someone tells me I am playing to many notes, I will for sure play less.

The way to measure if YOU as a BASS player is playing mustang sally in a great way, is not how many notes you play. Open your eyes. Look around. If everyone is dancing, moving, then you are nailing it. That's the purpose of this song.

When we play music, we are telling a story. If you tell a simple story, everybody understand and likes it. If you tell a complex one, fewer people will understand. When you play mustang sally, you are telling a story that everybody knows, and they like and want to hear again. If you add complexity, most people won't like it. "Where is the story I know? This sounds different...".

Interestingly enough, in my other current band, stones in pockets (http://www.myspace.com/stonesinpockets) my bandmates ask me to play MORE notes (because they love the fretless sound) and I try to keep it to as few notes as possible. They are musicians, but with the band, I am not playing for musicians. I want to reach as many people as possible.

Take a look at Billy Sheehan. I love Billy. His most sucessful song, "to be with you" with Mr. Big, is probably the song where he plays less notes of all his songs. :) Doesn't mean the guy can't play, do you agree???

Take the beatles... Simple bass lines (in terms of "number" of notes). Man, those bass lines are incredible! What a story do they tell! I wish I can do that! (and sell millions and millions of records) :) :) :)

So, if someone tells you "play less", play less. They are probably right.

Try to see a Victor Wooten video called "making music". He talks a little about this. The video shows the recording of a song for his album. He shows how he created the song, with 10 thousand different things going on in the bass. When it is time to record with the band, he cuts out to probablty 1/10th of the notes. Check it out.

The bass player is nt important, the drummer is not important, the guitar player is not important. The MUSIC is important! Serve the music!!!:bassist:
You said that well. You should know that I do play few notes in songs, or when the song is identified by a certain pattern, I play it. The cd my band recorded has several examples of that. I always listen to my bandmates, when we play together we like to move the audio spectrum around. Push with the drums, ease off and bring the sound down. We do use a lot of dynamics. That is a killer effect.

When we play music, we are telling a story. If you tell a simple story, everybody understand and likes it. If you tell a complex one, fewer people will understand. When you play mustang sally, you are telling a story that everybody knows, and they like and want to hear again. If you add complexity, most people won't like it. "Where is the story I know? This sounds different..."


Coelho, I'll remember you every time I remind myself of this. Brilliant!

-David

I have heard a lot of recorded versions of Mustang Sally, and they all sound different. I guess different storytellers.

You said that well. You should know that I do play few notes in songs, or when the song is identified by a certain pattern, I play it. The cd my band recorded has several examples of that. I always listen to my bandmates, when we play together we like to move the audio spectrum around. Push with the drums, ease off and bring the sound down. We do use a lot of dynamics. That is a killer effect.


Right on, dynamics are great! Just listen to movie soundtracks.

Take for example E.T. or Jaws. Take out the music, the movie DIES. Even if you keep the music, but remove the dynamics, the movie DIES!!! Dynamics play a huge role in how we react emotionally.

Dynamics are way more important than notes, IMHO.

t
I must apologize I have seen quite a few Grateful Dead concerts and really liked the fact they can take a song and bring it to another dimension. Improvisation is what a true musician should posses. It's like saying here are my thoughts. It's like our fans in my band. If we played the same routine, they would tire and not be so in to seeing us. We learn new songs, change songs in our list, keep it fresh. Sometimes an extended solo or extra chorus adds a freshness. Going into a loose jam and going into another song is a treat.
LG, I agree with you here. (And I could have guessed from your handle that you dig improv.) The thing is, I think the proper balance of improv vs. "playing it straight" differs from time to time, and the run-of-the-mill cover band probably prefers sliding the balance to the right. Nothing wrong with that, but when you sit in with that band, they sort of expect you to know where they're coming from. My take is, when the drummer asked you to dial it back it might have been a good time to reach a compromise with yourself to still have fun with it but to play more like they expected. (Easy for me to say, I know; I'm the total noob. But I've seen this from the audience's side, too, and while it can be entertaining to watch the band squabble amongst themselves, it's not what me and my friends are there for.)

And no need to apologize for seeing Dead shows - at least not to me. Can't count the number I've been to - for various and perhaps obvious reasons.:))
Cheers,

David

I have heard a lot of recorded versions of Mustang Sally, and they all sound different. I guess different storytellers.

Good point.

I think in a live situation, it then depends on what version of the story do the listeners that are present want to hear.

I bet that if Marilyn Manson plays the original version of mustang sally, the fans wouldn't like. :)

On the ther hand, he can tell the story in a different specific way so it is appropriate to those listeners.

So, it goes to what are the listeners expecting...

In a record, you can do whatever. If the listener doesn't like, he can change the song... Live he cannot change the song. :)

I understand about the "too many notes" thing.
There's this guy who fills in for me and the comments I hear afterwards all center around his over playing.
"It's like Entwistle jamming with Muddy waters" is a frequent expression I hear.
The guy is a fantastic bass player.Thats all he does.
he plays in severail bands,does studio work and teaches bass during the day.
He knows alot of notes and feels he has to play em' all.
It's just not approprate in all situations.

Sorry Higgie, I was just lashing out because I thought you bassplayers would laugh and share some kind of story with it. I felt like a piece of meat in a lion pit for a while.

Well, the only story I have that relates is from one of the first times I filled in for a friend's band. It was very straight ahead, I IV V pop-punk music, mostly root notes... I started "getting into it" and throwing in fills and accents and so forth all over the place... and the singer stopped us and said "man, can you just play a little less there during the verse?"... I said "oh, sure man, sorry"... and proceeded to play the song note for note after that. You know, rather than turning my nose up, saying "god ur basslines r so simple and boring" and going off and bragging to my buddies about how they could handle my immense talent.

Angus Young from AC/DC, the guy is not good technically/simple stuff, but rocks the house down every time he plays.

In the past I've come to play and then knew right away my style was not what they wanted or where looking for. Or I should have brought the other bass etc.

Rather than fighting musically, we sat down and talked briefly how to get the most outta of the session. We are all here and we need to get this song/music out. Common goals.

It helped all of us and became far more productive.
They enjoyed it and we had a crowd of folks praising us.........

And that was a screwed up session............

What this really seems to get down to, different goals for this song. While this seems obvious, it happens a lot more than many think about.

So you need to be able to not let the ego get in the way of the musical goal. If you do, you will find conflict.
Drummer and yourself, it takes two to tango.

Many bands are so desperate for bassist, ones that can show up, have decent equipment, play etc, they let you get away with quite a bit.

But.........that's just because they are being nice.
Some will say stuff and call you on it asap.

But if you sit back and check things out, get a sense of what they want, start simple, see how they respond, then add and build.

You can do this while playing and feel their vibe.
I've done both directions here, started simple, then reduced it even further. Most folks have this skill.

Then add tapping, harmonics etc. You can make it interesting and simple. Oddly, this impressed folks a lot more than notes/riffs.

Moving around more and simply enjoying that simple stuff, also impresses folks a lot. Not only can they feel your groove, they can see it coming out of you.

Have fun, play bass.

Tom

Moving around more and simply enjoying that simple stuff, also impresses folks a lot. Not only can they feel your groove, they can see it coming out of you.

Have fun, play bass.

Tom


+1

LG, I don't know how you play, I can't say anything about it. In your story, maybe you were right, maybe don't, I can't say. But, by your writing, a lot of people here will agree that you have a lot of attitude.

being the crazy, spaced out player I am was throwing in all kinds of fills, trill, and spills
Are you one of those TAB reading types?
These are a kind of extremes, and between this, there is a reasonable middle. I haven't heard you play, I'm talking about your way of thkinking about playing bass.

It seems to me that you have a bit of an attitude problem as it is, regardless of who your influences are or how many notes you were actually playing.
I Agree.

Would love to watch you play sometime. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This confirms it.

Bottom line is that you were sitting in on their gig. If the drummer felt you were playing too much then you probably were. Doesn't sound like it was your place to start arguing with them. Simple rules of sitting in on someone elses gig :rolleyes:

There is a reason why Mustang Sally or Stormy Monday have such simple bass lines.
It is NOT because the guy who came up with them wasn't proficient enough.

Stormy Monday is a slow jazz/blues standard with lots of freedom and room for quiet, tasteful fills. There isn't really a definitive way to play bass on Stormy Monday.

The bass player is not important, the drummer is not important, the guitar player is not important. The MUSIC is important!

I like this.

^Me, too!

I've gotten more respect and call-backs for playing less notes than for playing more, especially in a sit-in situation. After all, you should be grateful they let you on stage in the first place. Mindfulness, awareness and respect go a long way. Leaving your body and daydreaming off in your own little world is not advisable when you're trying to communicate collectively. Maybe that's something you should work on?

If you were playing all the classic, overdone covers like Stormy Monday, what more is needed than the classic basslines? I'll tell you, I get more clout from older players and other players in general if I nail the part like it was from the recording or at the very least, capture the essence of it. If I can show that I have a real command of the parts, then I can stretch out a little bit. If I truly do have a command of the parts then I will probably stay with the original bassline anyway because there's not much there to improve on. If you let go of your ego, all sorts of wonderful things start to happen! :)

I guess I do come off with an attitude. Sorry to offend. I am usually mellow, but when pushed into a corner I come out swinging. And on Stormy Monday... I have played that song forever, it mostly focus' on the vocals, everything else kind of swirls slowly. Harmonics do add a nice flavor, when thrown it randomly.
As for sittng in for a friend, She likes to see acrobatic stuff. As I read my original post, I guess I came off kind of rough. It didn't become a heated argument or draw attention to the bar. I wouldn't go that far.
You all had fun with me. I love LOVE a good debate.

Hi VintageBT6Lover,

I saw you are in Brooklyn and plays in Nublu. I have a friend that plays there often, Karina, do you know her?

PS: I like your stuff in myspace!

Discussions of music on a message board are a tricky thing. No one here knows what you sounded like when you sat in with the band. Maybe you were brilliant and you added flourishes that enhanced the music. But that's not how it came across in your description.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I read your initial post I was reminded of horrible experiences I've had with people sitting in with my bands. I remember one of them distinctly.

A few years ago as a side project, my guitar player and I joined up with a ska band whose guitarist quit and whose singer left to study abroad. They had a bass player so I was really just a singer and occasional pianist. We did old R&B and soul covers (Al Green, Wilson Pickett etc) and had a ton of fun. One night a friend of the drummer showed up and kept bugging him to jam on guitar. Toward the end of the night he finally let him. The guy was awful. He just loudly, and inappropriately soloed over EVERYTHING. We finally stopped even trying to get through an actual song and followed his lead and jammed just so it would sound like something. But he couldn't even keep the rhythm HE established.

That was the only night that we were asked to stop playing early at that bar. Normally we would play right up until closing time and then we would hang out and do some acoustic stuff for the bartender and the waitstaff and generally have a good time. Not that night.

That's the memory that came flooding back when I read your post. Again, I wasn't there to see you so I can't judge you. But just remember that there's an etiquette to sitting in, and it means respecting the band, not just the person who let you borrow their instrument.

I agree here. We should serve the music, not the other way around. If someone tells me I am playing to many notes, I will for sure play less.

The way to measure if YOU as a BASS player is playing mustang sally in a great way, is not how many notes you play. Open your eyes. Look around. If everyone is dancing, moving, then you are nailing it. That's the purpose of this song.

When we play music, we are telling a story. If you tell a simple story, everybody understand and likes it. If you tell a complex one, fewer people will understand. When you play mustang sally, you are telling a story that everybody knows, and they like and want to hear again. If you add complexity, most people won't like it. "Where is the story I know? This sounds different...".

Interestingly enough, in my other current band, stones in pockets (http://www.myspace.com/stonesinpockets) my bandmates ask me to play MORE notes (because they love the fretless sound) and I try to keep it to as few notes as possible. They are musicians, but with the band, I am not playing for musicians. I want to reach as many people as possible.

Take a look at Billy Sheehan. I love Billy. His most sucessful song, "to be with you" with Mr. Big, is probably the song where he plays less notes of all his songs. :) Doesn't mean the guy can't play, do you agree???

Take the beatles... Simple bass lines (in terms of "number" of notes). Man, those bass lines are incredible! What a story do they tell! I wish I can do that! (and sell millions and millions of records) :) :) :)

So, if someone tells you "play less", play less. They are probably right.

Try to see a Victor Wooten video called "making music". He talks a little about this. The video shows the recording of a song for his album. He shows how he created the song, with 10 thousand different things going on in the bass. When it is time to record with the band, he cuts out to probablty 1/10th of the notes. Check it out.

The bass player is nt important, the drummer is not important, the guitar player is not important. The MUSIC is important! Serve the music!!!:bassist:


Hey Coelho, you are so right on the money, it's unreal.
You are 100% right on....Hey, you must be Portugee..
I just did 3 weeks in the North, Lisboa, and Ilha Terceira,
where my wife is from...Dig it,

Slug

Hey Coelho, you are so right on the money, it's unreal.
You are 100% right on....Hey, you must be Portugee..
I just did 3 weeks in the North, Lisboa, and Ilha Terceira,
where my wife is from...Dig it,

Slug

Hi Slug, I am from Brazil. Same language though. :)

I would rather see a band interpret a song in their way, opposed to "playing like the record". The bands that create within the song are the ones I enjoy seeing. I must apologize I have seen quite a few Grateful Dead concerts and really liked the fact they can take a song and bring it to another dimension.

That is fair enough, but if it is only you that is 'taking the song to another dimension', and the rest of band are playing it as the original was, then it isn't really going to work.

Oh, and I think the best grooves are the ones that are simple. So what if Mustang Sally only has one simple riff that is transposed with the chord changes? It sounds sexy and groovy, and people haven't come to the gig to see a bass solo.

Oh, and you mentioned that your friend likes to see you show off? Well if she likes that, then meet up with her and jam, don't share it with the people who have paid money to go and see a band.

The bass player is nt important, the drummer is not important, the guitar player is not important. The MUSIC is important! Serve the music!!!:bassist:

i think it would be wrong to say it like that.. the bass player, the drummer, and the guitar player have, in most chases, the same value!
all together, the band create the music. Everyone should have fun, but still don't overplay or disturb the melody.
work as a team! and if you can't, then LumpyGravy shouldn't play with them after all

i think that was what you meant after all.. hopefully:p

the D,
I know I am far from scraping the edge of perfection. I love to watch live music. I would rather see a band interpret a song in their way, opposed to "playing like the record". The bands that create within the song are the ones I enjoy seeing. I must apologize I have seen quite a few Grateful Dead concerts and really liked the fact they can take a song and bring it to another dimension. Improvisation is what a true musician should posses. It's like saying here are my thoughts. It's like our fans in my band. If we played the same routine, they would tire and not be so in to seeing us. We learn new songs, change songs in our list, keep it fresh. Sometimes an extended solo or extra chorus adds a freshness. Going into a loose jam and going into another song is a treat.

It is good to be able to improvise, or play a cover song with one's own flavor. However, we have to be careful with standards like Mustang Sally and Stormy Monday. They are *such* standards that people want to hear them a certain way. Its great to cultivate and serve one's own creativity, but one must *first* serve the song. If the song requires simplicity, then remain true to that spirit.

Also, when you are playing with your own band, you can take such liberties if it fits what they do. When you are sitting in with someone else's band, you must respect what they want from a bassist. If they want simple lines with deep pocket, then that's what we should give them. If they want busier lines, then that's what we should give them.

As for the Dead...I like a number of their songs, but when they get into those long, complex jams that take forever, they bore me. I'm more of a Rolling Stones/garage rock kinda girl, at heart. I like blues, and I like punk. As you can see, my tastes run to tight arrangements and deep pocket, without much long jamming, etc. I like to put in fills and runs, etc., but only when they don't get in the way of the song, or when they support something else that is going on in the tune.

So...you know where I'm coming from, musically.

Just my 2 centavos...

Cherie

I don't know if the drummer is right or you're right, but I definitely have seen bassists (doing covers) who did so much improvising, that I felt like they were over-playing the song, mostly out of their own boredom and need to be noticed. I sometimes found their bass playing to be distracting. Sometimes it's just better to do it like the original recording and stay in the "pocket". Sometimes there can be "too many notes."

If a band was kind enough to ask me to sit in, and asked me to chill on my licks, I would. Regardless of my opinion on the matter. Its nice that the OP seems rather apologetic towards the end of this thread, because the beginning of it was a trainwreck of stupidity

If a band was kind enough to ask me to sit in, and asked me to chill on my licks, I would. Regardless of my opinion on the matter. Its nice that the OP seems rather apologetic towards the end of this thread, because the beginning of it was a trainwreck of stupidity

After reading this entire thread, I shall reserve my +1 for fhbandy. :D

+1

Sounds like it was a "Look At Me!!! Look At Me!!!!" moment on a gig.

"Fill", "trill" and "spill" should have been mixed well with a large dose of "chill" as well from the sounds...err....description of the night.

And to the poster about me trying too hard to be a bass player...... I disagree. If I was trying too hard, I would have to quit all my jobs(yes, I work more than one), and sit home all day with my bass on. I mostly practice for an hour a week. It is usually to brush up or learn new songs that one of my 2 bands wants to play. I've had to learn 3-4 sets of music in a couple of weeks, and have them ready for 1 practice then a gig in the same week. Maybe that is trying to hard. I don't know, but my bands are amazed, knowing my work schedule, that I have the music down and ready for a gig. I've played songs live, that I have only heard on the radio. A little watching the guitarist for placement, but mostly learning it off the cuff. I used to do a lot of open mics where I was playing songs that I've never known. I guess that is practice, but it got me to play with strangers, whom some of them have joined bands that kept money in my pocket. I was in a band once that were so uptight about "note for note". I did good with it, but after being away from them for 7yrs I found out they are still in the "garage".
Ok then you need to know some basic principles of bass playing....the role of the instrument and the player in the band...the role of the bass to fit and serve the song...your role as a bassist to work with the other musicians in the band...those kinda stuff. If you're not playing alone then play along. You can't just play any kind of music (even in jazz) according to how you want it to be if you're in a band or playing with other musicians. You have to and "must" play with them. You can improvise and do your own lines but take into consideration that you are accompanying (or being accompanied if you're the soloist) someone else. Go with the flow and not against it. It's as simple as that.

Well, it appears that my thread has gotten a lot of attention. Most of it unfortunately, a little tough, but that got some opinions out for me to evaluate. I am really not one that will say look at me. I like when the whole band takes the music thru an audio rollercoaster. I do prefer the "power Trio" sound, and having been in a few, I guess I have adapted to beefing up a song. One of my mottos is "to be the best you can be" and "live each day like it was your last". Maybe because of my influences, I am a product hugely of some killer bass players. I have copped a lot from them. Apparently they overplay, too. I get bored of 8th note patterns and ostinatoes. But I will thank all of you for your views!

It's not about notes, it's about fitting the music. If you think what you do fits, then do it.

Hi VintageBT6Lover,

I saw you are in Brooklyn and plays in Nublu. I have a friend that plays there often, Karina, do you know her?

PS: I like your stuff in myspace!
Hi Coelho!

No, I haven't met Karina before. What does she play and who does she play with?

Thanks for the kind words! :cool:

Hi Coelho!

No, I haven't met Karina before. What does she play and who does she play with?

Thanks for the kind words! :cool:

She has her own band. This is her myspace profile:
http://www.myspace.com/karinazeviani

She also sings for Thievery corporation.

Ok then you need to know some basic principles of bass playing....the role of the instrument and the player in the band...the role of the bass to fit and serve the song...your role as a bassist to work with the other musicians in the band...those kinda stuff. If you're not playing alone then play along. You can't just play any kind of music (even in jazz) according to how you want it to be if you're in a band or playing with other musicians. You have to and "must" play with them. You can improvise and do your own lines but take into consideration that you are accompanying (or being accompanied if you're the soloist) someone else. Go with the flow and not against it. It's as simple as that.

I do "go with the flow" . I play what feels good when the song is flowing. it just bothers me that you people that have not being there, know what happened. You have never seen me play. Maybe too much notes, but who are you to say what the outcome was. Most people do (unfortunately) like what I do. My head doesn't swell from it> I usually ask what they think of the rest of the band. I hear it sounds good. I am a good listener for what goes around aurally. In fact, listen to Judith by A Perfect Circle. It is screaming thru my house and it sounds good.
In that song I hear other and more complicate bass lines. Is that wrong??

peace!

i think it would be wrong to say it like that.. the bass player, the drummer, and the guitar player have, in most chases, the same value!
all together, the band create the music. Everyone should have fun, but still don't overplay or disturb the melody.
work as a team! and if you can't, then LumpyGravy shouldn't play with them after all

i think that was what you meant after all.. hopefully:p


I think you should "open mic" more often. It is fun. Open up your mind.

Play the way you want to play!!!! If you're getting gigs and people are hiring you to play with them, and your phone is ringing off the hook, then you're doing something right.

Play the way you want to play!!!! If you're getting gigs and people are hiring you to play with them, and your phone is ringing off the hook, then you're doing something right.
thank you!

This is a great thread for me. It's saving me a lot of bandwidth, and Lumpy will hate me less.

I do "go with the flow" . I play what feels good when the song is flowing. it just bothers me that you people that have not being there, know what happened. You have never seen me play. Maybe too much notes, but who are you to say what the outcome was. Most people do (unfortunately) like what I do. My head doesn't swell from it> I usually ask what they think of the rest of the band. I hear it sounds good. I am a good listener for what goes around aurally. In fact, listen to Judith by A Perfect Circle. It is screaming thru my house and it sounds good.
In that song I hear other and more complicate bass lines. Is that wrong??

peace! :rollno: No because it fits. ;)

Friend of mine always complains about "bass players that think they're lead guitar players." It drives him crazy.

When I play, I try to fit the song and the situation. Sometimes I play conservatively and some times I rip it up. I adapt to what I think works best at that moment rather than always playing the same way.

I play as much as possible too bro, but remember man, you cant hold no groove if you aint got no pocket.

Relax. Swallow your pride. AND listen. Consider what people are saying and apply if necessary.

Relax. Swallow your pride. AND listen. Consider what people are saying and apply if necessary.
+1
Exactly!

I don't overplay. I do augment. Are you one of those TAB reading types? If so, YAWN!

there's a fine line between "augment" and "over play"

most people who think they are ADDING to a bassline usually are overplaying it.

I don't find fancy bass-playing impressive. I find "staying the pocket" of the song, and setting a groove to be more impressive.

Play the way you want to play!!!! If you're getting gigs and people are hiring you to play with them, and your phone is ringing off the hook, then you're doing something right.

I'll Ditto this!! I've been told by and let go by a band because I didn't keep it simple enough and stay "in the pocket". I've also received raves from other musicians for my playing style, praising it as unique, "you play the bass almost more like an extra guitar" was a comment I once got from a much respected older, much experienced guitar player. He very much meant it as a compliment.

So, I play the bass line that I hear and feel for the song. If you don't like my style, well, a different band is in order.

I detest having to play exactly what the original recording had on it, especially when it is bass note, eighth note thumping.

..."you play the bass almost more like an extra guitar" was a comment I once got from a much respected older, much experienced guitar player. He very much meant it as a compliment.

I'm sure he did. The problem is when you were "playing bass like an extra guitar", who was playing bass? ;)

You don't have to show everyone EVERY riff you know in one night let alone one song. I knew a bass player who had a sweet gospel gig every Sunday for nice $$. Well, the new Minister of music told him he over played and he needed to tone down. He said the same thing you said: "Thats the way I play". To make a short story even shorter...I have that Sunday gig now!

It's not about notes, it's about fitting the music. If you think what you do fits, then do it.

Until they tell you it doesn't .Then don't. :smug:

Until they tell you it doesn't .Then don't. :smug:


Yes, very true, thank you for the correction.

Obviously we all have different opinions on this subject, but it seems obvious that the bands with better gigs and/or more gigs will decide who is right. Adding more to the recorded bass line might work and actually be better in a 3-4 piece jam band, but won't work in a 6-7 piece top 40 band, there would just be to much clutter. Either you are willing to adapt and fit in, or you aren't. Like everything else in life, there will come a time when money, in the form of paying gigs, will decide what you do. Don't whine when us "boring" bass players beat you at every audition.

From a teacher's perspective, I just think that you are hurting yourself in the long run by not developing the discipline of learning how to play those "boring" recorded bass lines on cover songs. It is the same discipline that you have to have to practice your scales,sight reading, finger patterns, etc every day. Raw, flashy talent might get you noticed at first, but consistancy will always win. If you only play your own way all the time , every line you play will sound the same, every song will sound the same, and that is what I think is boring. Whatever excuses you have for not learning this discipline, I personally believe laziness is the main reason. You will eventually be a 50+ year old that has been playing the same types of gigs with the same type of bands in the same types of bars for the past 20 years, who eventually becomes the subject of a "tired of drunk band member" discussion.

I am really not one that will say look at me. I like when the whole band takes the music thru an audio rollercoaster.

That's fine, but only when it fits the music. That's not what numbers like 'Mustang Sally" are about. They need a basic bass line with a strong groove, not someone doing trills and fills.

I do prefer the "power Trio" sound, and having been in a few, I guess I have adapted to beefing up a song. One of my mottos is "to be the best you can be" and "live each day like it was your last".

What happened to "respect the music"? Acting like the second coming of Jaco while playing Pipeline isn't a crowd pleaser. And "Mustang Sally" isn't a power trio song - so don't try to play it like one. Wrong style.


Maybe because of my influences, I am a product hugely of some killer bass players. I have copped a lot from them. Apparently they overplay, too. I get bored of 8th note patterns and ostinatoes. But I will thank all of you for your views!

Then you must be even more bored of quarter notes and simple bass lines. But that's what the bass is often called on to provide. When the music is such that more extensive playing is called for, that's fine, and a great chance to enjoy yourself as long as you're not doing it at the expense of others in the band. But when you're sitting in with a band, you're a guest. You need to conform to their style of playing because it's about their band, not you as a performer.

No sympathy here. I went back to your original post and I don't see that you've ever really deviated from your position that you were right, the band was wrong, and anyone that thinks you should have played basic bass lines was wrong.

A lesson that all of us need to learn is to be simple when the music needs it. Duck Dunn is often a model of superb simplicity.

That's fine, but only when it fits the music. That's not what numbers like 'Mustang Sally" are about. They need a basic bass line with a strong groove, not someone doing trills and fills.



What happened to "respect the music"? Acting like the second coming of Jaco while playing Pipeline isn't a crowd pleaser. And "Mustang Sally" isn't a power trio song - so don't try to play it like one. Wrong style.



Then you must be even more bored of quarter notes and simple bass lines. But that's what the bass is often called on to provide. When the music is such that more extensive playing is called for, that's fine, and a great chance to enjoy yourself as long as you're not doing it at the expense of others in the band. But when you're sitting in with a band, you're a guest. You need to conform to their style of playing because it's about their band, not you as a performer.

No sympathy here. I went back to your original post and I don't see that you've ever really deviated from your position that you were right, the band was wrong, and anyone that thinks you should have played basic bass lines was wrong.

A lesson that all of us need to learn is to be simple when the music needs it. Duck Dunn is often a model of superb simplicity.
Well since you want to further tear me up. I play what I feel. Mustang Sally has been done, redone and outdone. What does it matter what it sounds like. The lyrics are somewhat consistant. If I see that song live, I would only hope the band can play a smoking version of it. Unless I am drugged out to the max, I wouldn't want to hear a version that sounds like the Young Rascals. I can hear that in the privacy of my own home. Live music should sound live, not recorded.
I guess having fun with music bothers you. Would you tell someone like Jack Bruce that. He's played the balls off of a lot of covers. What would Les Claypool think, if you said he overplayed? I may not have their talent, but I do have fun. The evolution of bass playing has evolved. Evolve with it. I enjoy watching musicians that put heart and soul into their music. Even if it means going to extremes. If that makes the performance worth watching, then it's good to me. If I want to hear "record" sounding music I will spend money in the Pukebox or stay home. Live music is supposed to be entertaining.

Pilgrim,
I guess Dick Dale plays his own music note for note. Not! I've seen him in Joshua Tree, Ca. Very loose and FUN!

Surf that wave!:hyper: :bassist:

I am in a mood tonight!

Pilgrim,
I guess Dick Dale plays his own music note for note. Not! I've seen him in Joshua Tree, Ca. Very loose and FUN!

Surf that wave!:hyper: :bassist:

I've seen Dick Dale live every year for the past five years. I've also taken the opportunity to speak to his bass player, Sam Bolle, a number of times. Nice guy, and I've spokn with him about how he plays bass for Dale.

If you think that Sam would try to add fills and extra notes while playing with Dick Dale because Sam thought it sounded better to him (exactly what you keep claiming you do), you're sadly mistaken. He understands the music, he does play solos, he ad-libs AS DIRECTED and WHEN DIRECTED by Dick Dale. But he doesn't freelance and add his "own notes" like you keep pproudly proclaiming you do.

I suppose that if you were playing bass for Dale on Miserlou, you'd feel free to invent your own bass line because the other one has been played since 1960. And you'd be sitting on your ass in the parking lot as soon as Dale kicked you there.

I'm not sure why you continue to ignore the overwhelming number of comments from people that you need to play to the music, not to your ego.

It's probably been said, but, think how funny it would sound if Terry Bozzio played Mustang Sally! He is in bands that play complicated music (I heard he's in Korn now... so maybe not) so he can play complicated stuff.

If you aren't happy playing simple, join or start a band that plays complicated music. Overplaying sounds awful.

I think this is one of those threads you'll find in a couple years and it will kind of make you scoff at your own immaturity. I'm saying this because it's happened to me for as long as I've TBed. My earlier posts/days of bass playing, I thought I was hot **** and every song needed a bunch of fills. There is a time and a place for fills, it's not every bar. Unfortunatly, I've never had that talk with my drummer. :hmm:

Overplaying sounds awful.

What he said, +100

You (original poster) seem to think that you're "better" than the music you're playing. You're not just "stretching out" on a song... you think that you're showing everybody that you're better than the song.

That's not good, on many many levels.

Lots of players have crazy chops, but they have no taste... or no self restraint... or unmanageable egos... or no knowledge/respect for music history... or an annoying need to 'prove' themselves. Bottom line is that they can play well enough, but they're lousy musicians... if you can see the distinction.

Playing bass in an ensemble means you have to rein yourself in, for the good of the "team". Maybe you should be a solo artist, where you can let your musical ideas fly, without stepping on anybody's toes?

There's certainly room for a little improvisation in almost any tune. The question is about degree. I think a good bass player, especially someone in a sit-in role, knows how to find his moments. In a typical 4/4 tune with a vocalist, you probably don't want to be calling attention to yourself during every bar (or even every other bar) of the song. Save the improv fills for the turnarounds, and occasionally during the dead spaces between the end of a lyric line and the start of another.

I guess I just get bored playing songs for years.

Not bashing or anything, but I don't think I could listen to obladi oblada so many times if McCartney added in "trills, fills, and spills" whenever he felt like it.

I always hate when the minority feels the need to try and change something that the majority of people are ok with.

In English: If the crowd was digging it as much as you say they were, and the Drummer was literally the only one who disliked how you embellished your playing, then the drummer needs to shut his mouth, IMHO.

As a matter of fact, if they didn't like the way you played, they shouldn't have invited you to play with them in the first place.

After reading all of the posts carefully I feel the need to express my opinion.

In the firts posts it seemed it was going to be another "how great we 'virtuosos' are" thread, and that's boring. Cool it turned into a debate.
I consider myself in the total opposite side of the "virtuoso" thing, but I also had a similar kinda problem that the one LG describes; a band asks me to sit in, but they weren't inot this big load of "red noise". I think it's true that every one of us as bass players and mainly MUSICIANS should serve the music. But I also think that every one of us should have some kinda "mark" into his/her/it's way of playing; if the band doesn't like spills, fills, etc... even better, doesn't want "too many notes", well, why call a guy that does that? Some bands have heard me playing and say they like it but it doesn't suit their needs (one even said that if they were going to play aggressive music again I was going to be the first person they called; and I take that as compliment), so I even helped'em find the right person.
Wrapping up I think it's a matter of equlibrium, put your mark but also help the needs of the band your playing. Or do as I did, start your own band!!!

Lots of noise to all of you.

You know it dawns on me, I've been playing Mustang Sally for over 30 years.

I've grown up with that song and throughout my growth as a musician played and abused that song to the absolute limit of my creativity and ability at one time or another.

I don't think I've ever "improved" on that stupid 4 note bassline.

Kinda annoying when I think about it...

The less notes I play the more $$ per note I get. And it's all about the MON-NAY! :bassist:

Our band does the long live version of Clapton's "Wonderful Tonight" and the bass line is very deliberate. I've experimented with some walking basslines during practice....but it didn't do a thing for the song.

As a matter-of-fact, all my experimentation is done either at home or practice. I rarely try new things at gigs. Neither do the other band members. It kinda keeps things tight that way.

Cream's reunion DVD includes "Stormy Monday". Clapton is awesum on it and Bruce simply lays back and lets the tune flow.

Just my humble 2 cents brain surgery.

Too much + too loud = too much unemployed.

Maybe start your own band - play the way you like. Mingus
did - even trained his own drummer (Dannie Richmond) who
would play the way Mingus wanted.

It's not that a lot won't work - Motown's Jamerson and
TOP's Rocco and David Garibaldi come to mind although
I'm sure there were some heated exchanges at times.

If you're going to be the "funny guy" it helps to have a
"straight man" type of drummer - like the Jeff Berlin and
Bill Bruford combination.

Comedy needs straight men - so does music. The best
times are when you can switch roles and still make it fun.

It's really refreshing to hear songs being played in new ways, not just the same bad old copies of the original versions that you've heard a million times before. If you're putting some own riffs and fills into songs like Mustang Sally, go for it. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're overplaying just because you add some fills. It depends of the song of course, but in general I enjoy seeing some cool show-offing sometimes. So does most other people in the audience too, as long as it fits in, you don't do it too much so it gets boring, and you don't sacrifice the groove at any time.

IMO, you're overplaying if you don't leave enough room for the other musicians and for the music to "breathe" if you know what I mean. It's not related to how many notes you play, more to where you play what.

I guess that Mustang Sally would have sounded quite different if Rocco or Jamerson had played on the original version, but I can't imagine their versions would have been any worse than the one we know. Just different. Perhaps even better.


I like to see bassists that really participate in the show, that not only stand in a corner of the stage and lay down the groove. It is a very important job to do of course, but I want to see more than that on the stage. There is a reason why the lead guitarist and singer get the most attention...

It's really refreshing to hear songs being played in new ways, not just the same bad old copies of the original versions that you've heard a million times before.


I disagree. I find it refreshing to actually here the exact signature intros, fills , solos, key, etc of the original version. I understand that you have to modify most songs a little to work in a live situation, but with everybody trying to add their own thing or fake their way thru the song, you never hear a band ever get close to nailing a cover . Every band plays the same old songs in the same half@#s way. Is this what you meant by "bad old copies"?

Every one uses the same old excuses (I can play it better, I make it my own, I play it live, I have a degree in jazz improv), but it is usually just laziness. You were probably in the band once where you had to fake these covers because somebody tipped the band. Then the band decided to keep faking these same songs. Then you join a new band, and you say you know all these songs. Then you play them the way you faked them in the last band, and then you make it sound like you do this intentionally when the call you on it. BS, you just never bother to learn the song.

If a band wants to do something original with a cover, and then plan it and rehearse, that is fine. But 1 player shouldn't get to decide on the fly how the band should play the song. And 5 players faking their own way thru the song doesn't count as an "original" cover either.

I disagree. I find it refreshing to actually here the exact signature intros, fills , solos, key, etc of the original version. I understand that you have to modify most songs a little to work in a live situation, but with everybody trying to add their own thing or fake their way thru the song, you never hear a band ever get close to nailing a cover . Every band plays the same old songs in the same half@#s way. Is this what you meant by "bad old copies"?

Every one uses the same old excuses (I can play it better, I make it my own, I play it live, I have a degree in jazz improv), but it is usually just laziness. You were probably in the band once where you had to fake these covers because somebody tipped the band. Then the band decided to keep faking these same songs. Then you join a new band, and you say you know all these songs. Then you play them the way you faked them in the last band, and then you make it sound like you do this intentionally when the call you on it. BS, you just never bother to learn the song.

Right on.

Here's a link to Cream covering Stormy Monday. To be fair, this is a slightly changed interpretation, more of a standard slow blues than the well known groove line, so this isn't a perfect comparison. Jack seems to stretch out quite a bit actually, but he definitely stays in the pocket alot as well... cool stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5IdtqFf95g

If a band wants to do something original with a cover, and then plan it and rehearse, that is fine. But 1 player shouldn't get to decide on the fly how the band should play the song. And 5 players faking their own way thru the song doesn't count as an "original" cover either.

Of course you have to rehearse the songs like you want to play them live. However, some freedom to modify the songs (add a solo/fill, jam on harder here and softer there) on gigs are nice but only as long as you've agreed to keep things "open" and you have someone leading the song. I have never heard anyone complaining on us when we "jam away" sometimes.

How much improvising is allowed on stage is very much depending on the situation. If you play on TV, in front of thousands of people, in tribute bands or at recording sessions, you have to have pretty much everything well arranged. But if you only play pub and night club gigs in front of a bunch of drunk people it's a different story. And if people come to your gigs over and over to listen to you, I see no problem at all with doing it.

I play in a three piece band. Blues based rock.
I make a point of locking onto the bass drum
like a pair of vise grips.
Rather than fills with a lot of notes, I tend
to work off the drums by leaving out notes
to accent a beat or back beat. I have more fun by
playing with rhythms than going head to head with the
guitar player. I may jazz it up a little by playing triplets
when it works. I make a point to play straight
during the guitar players solo to maintain the melody.
Face it, I’m a bass player. Not a wanna be guitar player.

This has certainly been an interesting read so far.

The thing I've realised, and a point that has been made numerous times is that the music comes first, and your ego a distant second.

Recently I was in an indie rock-ish/alternative band and was reasonably free to play whatever I wanted since we were only playing originals.
The cool thing was, some people were complimenting me on my playing and saying thing like, "how do you move your fingers that fast" and stuff, which was cool.

Then one day, a friend of the singer who happens to be a doing alright for himself as an audio engineer and who is a bass player himself suggested to me that I should 'dumb down' some of my lines because I was playing too much.

I respected his opinion and made sure that I got a recording of our next gig and guess what....he was right. I hated how we sounded because of how I sounded.
That was a big lesson for me and has helped me improve as a bassist. I sound alot tighter with the drummer which helps the sound of the band overall.

The moment when I knew all of this was paying off was when my drummer (who was also the drummer from the first band) really complimented me on my playing one night, which he had never done before.


At some stage a page or so back I remember Claypool being mentioned. The difference between his role in a band and that of a bassist playing Mustang Sally is a noticeable one. Keeping the groove is different than lead bass. It's all about serving your role as a bass player within the band situation.

I'm all up for musical interpretation (and I've never tried to play a cover note for note), but it's still about sounding good collectively as a band. If that means extraordinarily simple basslines to serve the song, then so be it.

At the end of the day a band is working together. We've all read the threads here on Talkbass about the annoying guitarists that try and solo over everything, and the bassist that plays overly busy lines and puts fills in all over the place is in IMO just as bad.
However, you're free to play whatever you want, however you want. Just consider it in terms of the band context first.

I am in a mood tonight!Go get some therapy man! You ego is all over you!:rollno: :ninja: :rollno: :ninja: :rollno: :ninja:

Well, my band is kinda going trough that now, the drummer plays realy boring and calls it the groove, and how everything is supposed to be on the quarters (apparently he have 20 or so years experience, but IMO, not the skills for it) So, one of the guitarists agree with him, the other one is more "hey, let him play it!" and my line match up with how the vocal melody goes.. so i dunno, he told me that last practice, and we have a gig tomorrow, and i dont have time to experiment around with what sounds "better", and i will not play straight, as that made the song incredible boring.

Go get some therapy man! You ego is all over you!:rollno: :ninja: :rollno: :ninja: :rollno: :ninja:

Yeah right. If you knew me, you wouldn't say that. I don't ego trip. I am one to follow a compliment with " how did you like the band as a whole". I might come off cocky to you, but you'd be surprised of how I am. Most people do like what my band does. We have a great guitarist and keyboard/singer. The drummer and I play off each other. If I had an "ego", I would think that I wouldn't be with them for 7 yrs. I guess my posts don't speak as accurate as my playing. I recently listened to our cd, and thought of how much I played respectively. Sitting in with musicians, I do on occasion. I have done tons of open mics. I am just having fun, with hopes everyone else does. Performing live is a show. The musicians are in fact performing. I have played in bands where it seems like we are just going thru the motions, and to the crowd, if there are any left at the end of the night, look bored. Musicians have a job. If they are puppet like, they will not get a crowd to really enjoy them. If it looks like the band is having fun, they may come back to see you again.

Yeah right. If you knew me, you wouldn't say that. I don't ego trip. I am one to follow a compliment with " how did you like the band as a whole". I might come off cocky to you, but you'd be surprised of how I am. Most people do like what my band does. We have a great guitarist and keyboard/singer. The drummer and I play off each other. If I had an "ego", I would think that I wouldn't be with them for 7 yrs. I guess my posts don't speak as accurate as my playing. I recently listened to our cd, and thought of how much I played respectively. Sitting in with musicians, I do on occasion. I have done tons of open mics. I am just having fun, with hopes everyone else does. Performing live is a show. The musicians are in fact performing. I have played in bands where it seems like we are just going thru the motions, and to the crowd, if there are any left at the end of the night, look bored. Musicians have a job. If they are puppet like, they will not get a crowd to really enjoy them. If it looks like the band is having fun, they may come back to see you again.Ok. That's your opinion I respect that.;)

so why is this thread still going?

so why is this thread still going?Dunno, but here's my band's version of Mustang Sally for sh**s and giggles! I didn't cop the original line but I played it simple and straight.

Mustang Sally (http://www.zshare.net/audio/2336292f3a538f/)

Dunno, but here's my band's version of Mustang Sally for sh**s and giggles! I didn't cop the original line but I played it simple and straight.


And it works and works well. I've forgotten what the original line is anyway. No matter. Many ways to cop a standard like that and have it work. Very nice feel.

Joel :)

As long as the audience loved it, there's no problem. It's when you play that way and the audience ahtes it that you have problems.

I find it odd that with a guy like the OP who has years of experience under his belt that he still has the need to embelish his playing espescially at a pop gig! I used to be in the 'business' and would get demos on the regular and you wouldn't believe (well, maybe you would) the amount of bass overplaying and the amount of bad notes within the overplaying.

Over-playing usually hurts the song, no matter if it's technically proficient or not.

The drummer trying to get your attention during the song? He was trying to get you to play appropriately for the genre. Can't say I blame him.

I agree that covers should be played like they were written. Filling too much for a song that was written a certain way will make it unrecognizeable and unappealing to most that are there to hear a cover band.

Personally - I think playing covers is boring for this very reason. It sounds like you need to get something original going.

Also, I'm currently under the constraints of Mustang Sally :crying:

I agree that covers should be played like they were written. Filling too much for a song that was written a certain way will make it unrecognizeable and unappealing to most that are there to hear a cover band.

Personally - I think playing covers is boring for this very reason. It sounds like you need to get something original going.

Also, I'm currently under the constraints of Mustang Sally :crying:

Over-playing would hurt an original too.

I'll probably get scewered for saying this, but I don't care for Crossroads by Cream. Jack Bruce put too many notes in there, JMO. And I'm not just saying that because my band covers the tune and I have to learn it. I'll be learning a reasonable facsimile of it. The bass tab is 5 pages long! I don't have time for learning all that.

You don't have to show everyone EVERY riff you know in one night let alone one song. I knew a bass player who had a sweet gospel gig every Sunday for nice $$. Well, the new Minister of music told him he over played and he needed to tone down. He said the same thing you said: "Thats the way I play". To make a short story even shorter...I have that Sunday gig now!

Yeah... church would most definitely be a place one doesn't want to overplay - especially when there are non-musicians trying to sing along.

Over-playing would hurt an original too.

I'll probably get scewered for saying this, but I don't care for Crossroads by Cream. Jack Bruce put too many notes in there,

+1 on that totally. Jack Bruce never met a pocket that he'd fit in. Then again, Ginger Baker never tried to create one either.

:hiding:

Over-playing would hurt an original too.

I'll probably get scewered for saying this, but I don't care for Crossroads by Cream. Jack Bruce put too many notes in there, JMO. And I'm not just saying that because my band covers the tune and I have to learn it. I'll be learning a reasonable facsimile of it. The bass tab is 5 pages long! I don't have time for learning all that.

Agreed.

Just saying that an original is a better place than Mustang Sally to bust out a smoking 32nd note shred.

I'll probably get scewered for saying this, but I don't care for Crossroads by Cream. Jack Bruce put too many notes in there...
Yeah, but that was part of the drill with Cream, you knew what you were gonna get. They did most of their songs that way. And it was "cool" back then! :bassist:

Well, my band is kinda going trough that now, the drummer plays realy boring and calls it the groove, and how everything is supposed to be on the quarters (apparently he have 20 or so years experience, but IMO, not the skills for it) .

Well for the record, whatever nasty things I said earlier about earlier, I feel the same way about people who underplay. Underplaying a song can kill the drive just like overplaying can kill a groove. What is funny is the same people who tend to overplay a simple song tend to be the same ones who underplay a complicated one. This makes every song sound the same .That is why I usually write this off as laziness or ego for not listening to the songs. If you play what is supposed to be their for each song, then nobody can complain.

This just isn't a pet peeve. It is more a practical approach to playing in cover band. How do you get 5 people to play the same song without a lot of rehearsal, and still make it sound tight and clean right away. Learn the exact parts.

Well for the record, whatever nasty things I said earlier about earlier....

Sorry, "...earlier about overplaying,.."

Over-playing would hurt an original too.

I'll probably get scewered for saying this, but I don't care for Crossroads by Cream. Jack Bruce put too many notes in there, JMO. And I'm not just saying that because my band covers the tune and I have to learn it. I'll be learning a reasonable facsimile of it. The bass tab is 5 pages long! I don't have time for learning all that.

Whether you care for Cream's version of Crossroads is not the issue. If we're covering the subject of overplaying, then Bruce's line absolutely was not overplaying; it was appropriate for the style Cream played. If you don't like that style, play something simple. Nobody will fine you. But listen to some friendly advice -Taking the time to learn those five pages of bass line (and tab is a can of worms I'm not opening here) will improve your playing. It's like the calculus I hated in school. I'll never use it, I didn't like it, but it exercised my brain.

Regarding the original poster, I'm probably the last person to ever put up with someone telling me I play too much or too busy just because I'm a bass player. But there is a time and a place for everything. Unless the band has agreed to do something experimental, Stormy Monday probably ain't the place to cut loose.

Bigcat's got some good points. No, Jack didn't overplay one bit on Crossroads. Listen to what Clapton was playing on there. Jack's line was 100% appropriate, as was his laid back and relatively simple stuff on the slower Stormy Monday.

Whether you care for Cream's version of Crossroads is not the issue. If we're covering the subject of overplaying, then Bruce's line absolutely was not overplaying; it was appropriate for the style Cream played. If you don't like that style, play something simple. Nobody will fine you. But listen to some friendly advice -Taking the time to learn those five pages of bass line (and tab is a can of worms I'm not opening here) will improve your playing. It's like the calculus I hated in school. I'll never use it, I didn't like it, but it exercised my brain.



I can't disagree with the exercising the brain part, but right now I'm trying to learn a 44 song songlist. That's pretty good exercise, too. Crossroads is one song on the list. I simply do not have time to learn that song as Jack played it.

There's certainly room for a little improvisation in almost any tune. The question is about degree. I think a good bass player, especially someone in a sit-in role, knows how to find his moments. In a typical 4/4 tune with a vocalist, you probably don't want to be calling attention to yourself during every bar (or even every other bar) of the song. Save the improv fills for the turnarounds, and occasionally during the dead spaces between the end of a lyric line and the start of another.

+1,000!!!

Embellishment should be used tastefully. Otherwise, its like a diet of all candy and no meat. Tasty at first, but ultimately unsatisfying.

Cherie

Never too many notes....

I just go in there and proceed to tear it up!

Double-thump EVERYTHING...make 'em smile... :hmm:

I don't imagine you play out on a regular basis do you.

Yup, I play all the time. Even take a solo or 2 @ church... ;)

Yeah baby. Nothing like trilling on the final verse of the Our Father! Mother Mary by UFO would be killer with cathedral acoustics!

whoa I was wondering why this thread was still...someone performed necromancy on it...

There is'nt anything wrong with "spicing" the tune up a bit but be mindful; and listen to what the other players are doing. Embellishing a tune can be really cool if everyone is on the same page but it can sound bad if there is a tug of war going on between the players. Just pick your spots, don;t get too excited when the women start crowding the area in front of the bandstand and concentrate on grooving and you'll be alright.

Improvisation is what a true musician should posses.
Jaco couldnt improv
:rollno:

Yup, fills are like spices...

Too much Dave's Ultimate Insanity Hot Sauce and you'll get burned in and out...

as an egotistical bastard, i feel i can opine eruditely...:)
i tend to want to overplay. i have for years. that don't always cut it, though.
i find that learning 'when to hold, when to fold' is a wonderful thing. i also most always ask the other musicians what they consider appropriate, thereby keeping them happy.
it is a balancing act, i gotta admit...and there are buttloads of times where less is more.
there are also times where quantity is it's own quality...i think it comes down to...
1) are the girls in the audience dancing?
2) is the beer getting bought?
3) are the other musicians happy with you (not counting the occasional asshat)?
4) do you get asked back?

i'm finding that i hold back my urges a lot more than i indulge them...at least for cover gigs. the fact is that folks prefer a human jukebox to innovation, and acknowledging that helps pay the bills...i'm a bit more 'stretchy' for originals and for jams.

this is only my opinion, fwiw, imho, etc.

as an egotistical bastard, i feel i can opine eruditely...:)
i tend to want to overplay. i have for years. that don't always cut it, though.
i find that learning 'when to hold, when to fold' is a wonderful thing. i also most always ask the other musicians what they consider appropriate, thereby keeping them happy.
it is a balancing act, i gotta admit...and there are buttloads of times where less is more.
there are also times where quantity is it's own quality...i think it comes down to...
1) are the girls in the audience dancing?
2) is the beer getting bought?
3) are the other musicians happy with you (not counting the occasional asshat)?
4) do you get asked back?

i'm finding that i hold back my urges a lot more than i indulge them...at least for cover gigs. the fact is that folks prefer a human jukebox to innovation, and acknowledging that helps pay the bills...i'm a bit more 'stretchy' for originals and for jams.

this is only my opinion, fwiw, imho, etc.


I don;t think of myself as an egotistical bastard but you, my friend, nailed it!!!