I've been messing with effects more lately and having a lot of fun, but I have been detecting a good bit of "tone suck".

I get my best clean sound by plugging my bass into my head with a single 12' high quality cable, so I decided to inventory where the tone suck is coming from by A/Bing that direct-connect sound with one pedal at a time to hear what effect they have. I've arranged them from least tone-suck to most, where all effects are run in bypass mode:

- Radial Bigshot I/O. True bypass switcher, I don't think this is sucking much tone at all, BUT if you use it with a passive bass and an additional cable, it'll be like you're running a really long cable since this does not have a buffer stage. With an active bass, no big deal.

- the additional cable does contribute a bit to tone suck. When I use the Radial and A/B a short george L's with a spectraflex 12', there is a significant difference. Oddly, I think the george L's makes the sound brighter than direct-connect (maybe loosing a bit of lows?), while the spectraflex makes it darker than direct-connect as you would expect. But pretty subtle stuff, but it is there.

- Sansamp BDDI. Hardly has an effect at all, but there is a subtle loss of warmth and character. Might just be the extra cable.

- Sadowsky Preamp/DI. Very slightly more difference than the BDDI. Makes the highs sound a little drier.

- EBS effects. These have a noticeable tone drain and a slight volume drop. :( bummer since the effects are killer.

- Trace Elliot SMX. It breaks my heart since I LOVE the dynamics processing, but this thing is the biggest tone sucker on my board.

I'm considering going back to being a cable->amp guy, unless I can find some more effects with a tone-suck rating in the range of the Radial and Sansamp. But even then, I think all this extra cable is hurting my tone, and a great clean tone is the most important thing to me.

Would running things in an effects loop help? Other solutions?

I'd hazard a guess that what amp you are using plays a large role in this also. I did a 3 peice gig last night with drums, acoustic guitar, and bass. Since I was going to be taking a few solos and there was a massive amount of sonic space open, I did something unusual for myself. I popped my SABDDI in front of my head. Normally I use zilch in the way of effects. I noticed a marked loss of high end when the pedal was not engaged. It sounded like my strings were very dead rather than just broken in. After the first set I yanked that sucker out and went back to straight into the head. This wasn't just all my imagination either. The drummer looked at me after the first song of the second set and told me that I sounded clearer. I hadn't mentioned anything to him prior to that.

The head was a thunderfunk 550. I don't think that that head has a buffered input. I know that it pops like a sonofabee when I switch back and forth between active and passive. I assume that what I noticed was a buffer or something along those lines with the SABDDI. Then again I know virtually NOTHING about effects. I just don't ever use them.

My SABDDI is back in the bag to only be pulled for ampless gigs now.

If you love your pedals, try setting them each on individual bypass loops. I'm not sure how many EBS pedals you're running, but it seems like you could leave the Sansamp out of the loop, and obviously the Radial wouldn't go in the loop. That leaves the Sadowsky, the EBS pedals and the Trace Elliot. I imagine you could get this done with a 5 loop strip.

Interesting Kael ... is you bass passive or active?

I was doing all my testing today with an active bass.

I have 15 pedals in total on my board and am able to get away with very little tone suck. All of my modulation pedals are in a bypass loop.

I have a blendable looper (Barge Concepts VFB2) en route which will keep my overdrives out of the loop until they are needed, and pretty much everything else is either true bypass, or has a good buffer.

I own a Sans Amp and noticed as soon as I bought it that it was sucking tone when bypassed. If it was the only pedal I was using, it wouldn't be too bad but added to a chain of effects, it can be a problem.

I would also recommend a multi loop pedal such as the Loop Master units. It doesnt have to be the very first pedal in the chain. This way you can have a pedal with a good buffer in line beforehand and then keep all of your tone sucking pedals out of the signal path until needed.

I have 15 pedals in total on my board and am able to get away with very little tone suck. All of my modulation pedals are in a bypass loop.

I have a blendable looper (Barge Concepts VFB2) en route which will keep my overdrives out of the loop until they are needed, and pretty much everything else is either true bypass, or has a good buffer.

I own a Sans Amp and noticed as soon as I bought it that it was sucking tone when bypassed. If it was the only pedal I was using, it wouldn't be too bad but added to a chain of effects, it can be a problem.

I would also recommend a multi loop pedal such as the Loop Master units. It doesnt have to be the very first pedal in the chain. This way you can have a pedal with a good buffer in line beforehand and then keep all of your tone sucking pedals out of the signal path until needed.


15??...good lord...do you gig with that board?

I have 9 pedals on my "play toy" board, but I seldom gig it. My gig board typically has 3 pedals (tuner, chorus, and a DI)..sometimes an auto wah...

I agree with you on the Sansamp point...There's a definate tonal coloration that happens with the BDDI...Thats why I prefer the Tonebone over it. Plus I don't use OD all that often....but I still take the BDDI out from time to time.

Tone-suck has always drive me nuts!!! I first really noticed it when I started using a Mu-Tron. Problem is, I love the Tron so much, I can't live without it! Well, I can, but...

I found a solution to my high-freq losses a long time ago. The VHT Valvulator. http://www.vhtamp.com/product-news/valvulator1.html
http://www.vhtamp.com/product-news/images/valvulator-front.gif
I know, I know, it looks like a big expensive gimmick. But I'm telling you, the thing works! It solved my multi-pedal problems and it solves long cable and ground loop issues.

I've A/B'd my board with & without the VHT and the results never stop surprising me. If you're really obsessive about playing dynamics (like me)- the VHT makes playing through my pedals feel like straight to the amp. I swear on all that is holy.;)

The next step to perfecting my set-up is a true bypass looper. I still can't decide how many loop "channels" I want, but again with the Valvulator, I don't have to sweat all the extra switches & cable.

Consequently, here's a link I found here on good ol' TB that adresses a lot of the stuff in this thread: http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/diyhome.htm

I became a snob after feeling tone-suck hit hard with my Boss pedals. The Boss buffer doesn't react well to my bass.

My solution? Mod all pedals that you can't do without (love them, but they suck tone) to true-bypass, or get a looper. Otherwise, pick effects with true-bypass as a major requirement. For instance, I got a DOD FX91 this week that I can't stop playing, but I feel the tone suck. Solution: I'm ordering parts to mod it this week. :)

ME-50B completely sucks the life outta my Aggie rig...

My effects chain is about 17 effects long at the moment. I get an overall volume drop by about an hour if that makes sense. EG) The volume that used to be at 5 o'clock is now closer to 6 on the dial. Other than that my tone is fairly intact. Nothing to get all anal over anyway.

My effects chain is about 17 effects long at the moment. I get an overall volume drop by about an hour if that makes sense. EG) The volume that used to be at 5 o'clock is now closer to 6 on the dial. Other than that my tone is fairly intact. Nothing to get all anal over anyway.

+1

imho you can compensate 99% of your "tone sucking" with a little eq/boost combo at the end of the chain

Classic MXR Flanger (with the line cord coming out for power).

True-bypass, but when it's ON: Yuk.

Joe

I did some experimenting this weekend as well, as my pedalboard is in disarray, while waiting for my custom switcher and X2 to come in.

I didn't find my MultiComp to suck much tone, but I did bump the gain a little bit so it makes up for anything lost.
I also was running the WRONG EB VP Jr., which the guy at GC told me was the active version, but oh yeah, it's not. I can't believe (naturally!) how much better and "alive" my bass sounds. Been using it the past year or so like this... :scowl:

I run my TU-2 out of my volume pedal, as that thing (and yeah I tried it again) sucks "life" like no other. I wouldn't say it kills the signal, but it's definitely like using a $5 cable vs a Monster (and yes, there is an audible difference, at least to my ears! :p) where it just doesn't feel or sound as "big". Definitely not one to leave in line.

From my volume it then hits (before I got the MultiComp) my LS-2, which is pretty darn transparent at least to my ears. Not true-true bypass, but 100 times better than most Boss pedals. Everything else runs in that loop, so I only have 3 buffers before hitting my amp, and those two A/B'd are nigh indistinguishable.

I have an MXR Micro Amp as the last pedal in line before going back to the amp. Its always on and is set to boost just enough to restore any loss of volume from having lots of pedals. It works like a charm and does not add noise or effect my tone in any way that I can detect.

I've been messing with effects more lately and having a lot of fun, but I have been detecting a good bit of "tone suck".

I get my best clean sound by plugging my bass into my head with a single 12' high quality cable, so I decided to inventory where the tone suck is coming from by A/Bing that direct-connect sound with one pedal at a time to hear what effect they have. I've arranged them from least tone-suck to most, where all effects are run in bypass mode:

- Radial Bigshot I/O. True bypass switcher, I don't think this is sucking much tone at all, BUT if you use it with a passive bass and an additional cable, it'll be like you're running a really long cable since this does not have a buffer stage. With an active bass, no big deal.

- the additional cable does contribute a bit to tone suck. When I use the Radial and A/B a short george L's with a spectraflex 12', there is a significant difference. Oddly, I think the george L's makes the sound brighter than direct-connect (maybe loosing a bit of lows?), while the spectraflex makes it darker than direct-connect as you would expect. But pretty subtle stuff, but it is there.

- Sansamp BDDI. Hardly has an effect at all, but there is a subtle loss of warmth and character. Might just be the extra cable.

- Sadowsky Preamp/DI. Very slightly more difference than the BDDI. Makes the highs sound a little drier.

- EBS effects. These have a noticeable tone drain and a slight volume drop. :( bummer since the effects are killer.

- Trace Elliot SMX. It breaks my heart since I LOVE the dynamics processing, but this thing is the biggest tone sucker on my board.

I'm considering going back to being a cable->amp guy, unless I can find some more effects with a tone-suck rating in the range of the Radial and Sansamp. But even then, I think all this extra cable is hurting my tone, and a great clean tone is the most important thing to me.

Would running things in an effects loop help? Other solutions?
I know that the Keeley co. has true bypass on their pedals so you may want to look into them...

+1

imho you can compensate 99% of your "tone sucking" with a little eq/boost combo at the end of the chain

I disagree. Unless you manage to find the exact frequency and filter type to compensate for all the RLC and active artifacts that are introduced you will not have the same sound. Boosting at different frequencies than are being cut just makes things worse. I'm very picky about tone.

Its interesting you guys felt extreme tone suck on the BDDI. I definitely thought it was better than the EBS pedals, but I'll test again to see if I still feel that way.

What cables are you guys using? If you're hanging a beat up old 20 footer on the back side of the BDDI that could be part of the issue.

I disagree. Unless you manage to find the exact frequency and filter type to compensate for all the RLC and active artifacts that are introduced you will not have the same sound. Boosting at different frequencies than are being cut just makes things worse. I'm very picky about tone.

I know what you mean, Pickles.

For the tone purist - adding artificial eq at the end of a signal chain for the purpose of "correcting" missing frequencies - is kind of taboo. Basically, you're just boosting noise in that frequency range, along wth whatever tone is still left at that eq point.

As always, if it works for you, then great! :)

I have a feeling that Pickles & I are more from the same camp. For instance, if I found myself about to employ a Noise Supressor - I'd have to remove the offending effects instead. Or put in a bypassable loop & just accept the noise when the effect was on.

Same goes for compression that stays on all the time. Apart from screwing with your playing nuances - it's usually a sign of something wrong upstream if you need it all the time. (Recording situations excepted, but then you'd probably not be using a $150 -$200 pedal for that)

I do kind of understand boosting the overall level of your signal post -effects. There's always a "speet spot" when driving a preamp/amp. The trick is, being able to bypass everything easily without doing a "tap-dance" on your board!

That's just how I've come to approach tone & pedal issues. YMMV!

:hiding:

Yeah, I just boost volume a bit as I posted before. Thats all.. I just see it as the nature of the beast... Doesn't really phase me I guess. Each to their own :)

I think its time for me to start shopping for some true bypass effects.

I think its time for me to start shopping for some true bypass effects.

Or a looper! ;)

Or a looper! ;)

True. Though I hate to complicate things further.

One thing I've been thinking if is getting one of those barge boxes and putting a RAT on it :bassist: since you can blend it. Thats my favorite bass distortion, but talk about a tone sucker! But then I don't know what to do for the envelope filter.

Is there a device that combines multiple true-bypass loops with a loop-specific blend capability?

True. Though I hate to complicate things further.

One thing I've been thinking if is getting one of those barge boxes and putting a RAT on it :bassist: since you can blend it. Thats my favorite bass distortion, but talk about a tone sucker! But then I don't know what to do for the envelope filter.

Is there a device that combines multiple true-bypass loops with a loop-specific blend capability?

I think the Barge Concepts one does that, where it actually blends the clean and wet signals, as opposed to just turns them up and/or down, like the LS-2.
When I have an effect on, I don't want much clean, so that's why I didn't go w/ them and am having my own variation of the LS-2 (sorta) built.
2 loops w/ volume attenuators on each and a master bypass, like the LS-2, except I can turn one, the other, or both off/on as I please where the LS-2 makes you cycle through.

Interesting Kael ... is you bass passive or active?

I was doing all my testing today with an active bass.

Oops. I missed that question till just now.

I was using my wideneck Streamer LX 6 mainly for that gig. IOW, active. I also brought out the upright, but I didn't run the big bass into the SABDDI at any point that night. I've tried out the SABDDI as a preamp for the upright with some pretty disappointing results so I don't use it with my doghouse.

For what it is worth, I've noticed the same thing with my passive J also.

I was just messing with this again, and yep, definitely some tone suck happening. The BDDI does do some stripping, so do the EBSs ... and as you add them up the effect grows. My bass still sounds good but it doesn't feel the same ... and its definitely not just a volume drop.

Any recommendations for loopers? Ideally I'd need 3 channels (envelope, distortion, BDDI) all true bypass and a fully buffered blend function on one of them.

Any recommendations for loopers? Ideally I'd need 3 channels (envelope, distortion, BDDI) all true bypass and a fully buffered blend function on one of them.

E-Mail Barge Concepts about a custom version of the VFB-2. A few people on TB have custom models, but they usually just get two blending options and extra controls for a single loop. I'm sure they could do a multi-loop one, though, since they do have bigger enclosures.

I think its time for me to start shopping for some true bypass effects.

Interesting... the Sadowsky is advertised as having true bypass.
And yet people hearing differences between the bypass sound and the whole pedal bypassed by, let's say a hardware bypass looper....

I hear none! (the same goes for my tech21 BDDI, PBDDI, Acoustic DI).
The same is not true with my beloved EBS MultiComp.

I'm beginning to think the extra 12' of cable has more to do with tone suck than the pedal. Thats 24' total.

If the sadowsky is true bypass, then this must be the case ... and the BDDI sucks slightly less tone since it has a good quality buffer?

That makes me think the ideal solution would be and extremely high quality active looper, with the input and output impedance optimized to work with basses and amps, respectively.

Here's the picklesboard version 2.0 now with zero tone suck!

http://www.themadmonkey.com/pedalboard2.jpg

The Barge unit is AMAZING!

I guess now you'll need one of these if you ever want it back:

http://lxicon.com/suck.knob.jpg

:smug:

Put everything in the Radial loop and be done with it.

[QUOTE=rockstarbassist;4294324]

I didn't find my MultiComp to suck much tone, but I did bump the gain a little bit so it makes up for anything lost.
I also was running the WRONG EB VP Jr., which the guy at GC told me was the active version, but oh yeah, it's not. I can't believe (naturally!) how much better and "alive" my bass sounds. Been using it the past year or so like this... :scowl:
QUOTE]


+1...I had a very similar experience with the EB volume pedal. The difference in my overall tone was amazing when I pulled it out of the signal chain. I was basically using it for the tuner out, but after heariung the difference with it removed, I started using a Keeley True bypass Looper, and runnung the tuner in the loop...

I have been shopping for an octave pedal and another EF, but want to make sure there are no tone suck issues with the ones I buy. Anyone have any experience with the Emma Discumbobulator and the new EH micro POG? I've had some bad experiences with EH stuff, being noisey and tone suckers...but I'm interested in trying out the new Micro POG.

- EBS effects. These have a noticeable tone drain and a slight volume drop. :( bummer since the effects are killer.

The Unichorus and the Tremolo are both true bypass.

[QUOTE=rockstarbassist;4294324]

I didn't find my MultiComp to suck much tone, but I did bump the gain a little bit so it makes up for anything lost.
I also was running the WRONG EB VP Jr., which the guy at GC told me was the active version, but oh yeah, it's not. I can't believe (naturally!) how much better and "alive" my bass sounds. Been using it the past year or so like this... :scowl:
QUOTE]


+1...I had a very similar experience with the EB volume pedal. The difference in my overall tone was amazing when I pulled it out of the signal chain. I was basically using it for the tuner out, but after heariung the difference with it removed, I started using a Keeley True bypass Looper, and runnung the tuner in the loop...

I have been shopping for an octave pedal and another EF, but want to make sure there are no tone suck issues with the ones I buy. Anyone have any experience with the Emma Discumbobulator and the new EH micro POG? I've had some bad experiences with EH stuff, being noisey and tone suckers...but I'm interested in trying out the new Micro POG.

I still find it crazy that a volume pedal would suck tone...if it had active circuitry, I'd understand, but a passive pot in variable resistor or voltage divider setup wouldn't suck any tone, I wouldn't think. I'll have to test this theory myself.

[QUOTE=fishtx;4555734]

I still find it crazy that a volume pedal would suck tone...if it had active circuitry, I'd understand, but a passive pot in variable resistor or voltage divider setup wouldn't suck any tone, I wouldn't think. I'll have to test this theory myself.

Believe me, I was surprised as well...but they sure can. There was a link floating around TB about how the tuner out was affecting some of the older model EB volume pedals (I think)...I believe the article said they had fixed the problem with newer ones. I will try to find the lick when I get home and post it...

Interesting...I wouldn't think you could screw up a passive circuit like that. It only sends signal away, I wouldn't think it would come back to haunt you...

PS: I'm listening to the Pirates of the Carribean soundtrack right now, SO awesome. I like classical a little too much, methinks.

Looper. Problem SOLVED, and it works well for activating groups of pedals in a single bound!!! ... Errr, stomp. :D

I also was running the WRONG EB VP Jr.
I had a very similar experience with the EB volume pedal...I was basically using it for the tuner out...
I still find it crazy that a volume pedal would suck tone...
You better believe it, Salty. ANY circuit has the potential to suck tone and or volume, regardless of whether it's passive or not. The main culprit is parasitic capacitance to ground, which you'll find in cables, between PCB tracks, in connectors, switches, relays and every electronic component.

The problem is made worse by the tuner output socket. When there's no tuner connected the input impedance of the VP is equivalent to the value of the potentiometer. But, as soon as you connect a tuner the total input impedance then becomes the potentiometer value in parallel with the input impedance of the tuner - this means it's ALWAYS less than the lowest impedance out of the two! So, if your tuner is a tone sucker, putting it in circuit with a passive VP is only gonna make it worse.

Here is the link I mentioned in an earlier post regarding the tuner out on VP's causing issues:

http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/articles/tunout.htm

I recently had the same issues with my small setup that I addressed in this thread:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355518

I have ended up ordering a looper from Loop-Master. Hopefully that will resolve some of the issues.

I brought out my EHX Bass Micro Synth to practice last night and within the first song had pulled it out of the loop and gone back to just straightjacked goodness I typically run.

I had way too big a volume drop for my tastes, hard to tell if there was tone suck just because the volume drop was pretty severe and things sound different when they're quieter.

So, how much of the volume drop/tone suck was because of the two twenty foot of high quality cables (mogami, monster) and how much of it was the EHX? A little of both?

Am I going to have to pick up a looper in order to continue to experiement with it at practice? Or should I invest in some shorter cables first?

Help me true bypass gurus!

So, how much of the volume drop/tone suck was because of the two twenty foot of high quality cables (mogami, monster) and how much of it was the EHX? A little of both?

You haven't read our BMS threads in the past, I see. :D

It's almost entirely the fault of the bypass system of the EHX BMS. It'll kill volume no matter how you adjust the gain trimpot on the back. Of course, once you've adjusted that trimpot to work best with your bass, the drop isn't too bad. But IMO, this is one of those times where you should seriously consider modding the pedal to be true bypass.

The cables have little to do with it (although they do impact your signal in a VERY minor, outright negligible way, IMHO).

The newer Bass Micro Synthesizers I've seen (including my own) already have a 3PDT switch inside, so it's only a matter of a little rewiring. We've had a few threads about the mod, so a little search should bring up some helpful instructions pretty quickly.

Why they didn't just make it true bypass from the start, we'll never know... they had all the hardware for it already installed! :hmm:

You haven't read our BMS threads in the past, I see. :D

It's almost entirely the fault of the bypass system of the EHX BMS. It'll kill volume no matter how you adjust the gain trimpot on the back. Of course, once you've adjusted that trimpot to work best with your bass, the drop isn't too bad. But IMO, this is one of those times where you should seriously consider modding the pedal to be true bypass.

The cables have little to do with it (although they do impact your signal in a VERY minor, outright negligible way, IMHO).

The newer Bass Micro Synthesizers I've seen (including my own) already have a 3PDT switch inside, so it's only a matter of a little rewiring. We've had a few threads about the mod, so a little search should bring up some helpful instructions pretty quickly.

Why they didn't just make it true bypass from the start, we'll never know... they had all the hardware for it already installed! :hmm:

I have messed around with the gain pot a bit, but was under the impression that it was only for the effected sound, not the bypassed sound, which is my main issue. It's not an issue of volume drop when engaged, but overall volume decrease when in the loop.

No effects are worth killing my bypassed sound for, I'm sure that's blasphemy to some on here, but I'm an "effects are icing on the cake" type player.

I'll do a search for the true bypass mod on the BMS. That should decrease the bypassed volume issue and tone suck?

Decrease? Dude, it's the perfect solution to eliminating it completely. :p

The gain trimpot affects the signal overall - bypassed or not. The true bypass mod prevents the gain trimpot from doing anything to the bypassed signal by removing the entire circuit from the bypassed signal path. You'll still need to adjust the gain trimpot for the effect volume, of course.

Also... without the mod, turning the "Guitar" slider up all the way (10) is more than unity gain, no matter how you set it up. 7.5 or 8 is an approximate setting for unity. With the mod, I'm not sure - I have yet to perform that mod on my BMS, as I don't have the tools or time at the moment.

Tone-suck has always drive me nuts!!! I first really noticed it when I started using a Mu-Tron. Problem is, I love the Tron so much, I can't live without it! Well, I can, but...

I found a solution to my high-freq losses a long time ago. The VHT Valvulator. http://www.vhtamp.com/product-news/valvulator1.html
http://www.vhtamp.com/product-news/images/valvulator-front.gif
I know, I know, it looks like a big expensive gimmick. But I'm telling you, the thing works! It solved my multi-pedal problems and it solves long cable and ground loop issues.

I've A/B'd my board with & without the VHT and the results never stop surprising me. If you're really obsessive about playing dynamics (like me)- the VHT makes playing through my pedals feel like straight to the amp. I swear on all that is holy.;)

The next step to perfecting my set-up is a true bypass looper. I still can't decide how many loop "channels" I want, but again with the Valvulator, I don't have to sweat all the extra switches & cable.

Consequently, here's a link I found here on good ol' TB that adresses a lot of the stuff in this thread: http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/diyhome.htm

if it really works that well I may consider buying it...

while I love pedals, it is hard to get around the whole tone suck thing, my tone is never better than when bass => amp

My true bypass looper with buffered/blended loops completely eliminated my tone suck when bypassed AND reduced it greatly when the effects are in (I assume due to the buffers). I really wouldn't bother with anything else.

My Korg AX3000B has a very noticeable tone suck.