Hey folks,

I just came back from Berklee's Bass Lines summer program. I got a lot of great advice and I thought I'd share it with you guys.

The prevailing piece of advice seemed to be that learning music by ear, note-for-note, is the best way to get better. Skip Smith and Danny Morris (both Berklee bass faculty) gave me a great list of key players & albums to learn (see below.)

The other big piece of advice from everyone I talked to was not to play too much. The bass player's job very, very, *very* rarely involves tapping, double-thumping, slapping... really, anything except quarter and 1/8th notes. The consensus seemed to be that bass players nowadays get very caught up in the idea of playing fast or being out-front, and that 99% of the time, the bass player keeps time.

Here's the list:
- Everything by James Brown. There's a great double album called "Foundations of Funk" with enough to keep you busy for awhile.
- Everything by Marcus Miller
- James Jamerson on Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On;" Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made to Love Her" albums
- Church Rainey on Aretha Franklin's "Let Me In Your Life," "Young, Gifted & Black" albums, with Steely Dan on "Gaucho" and "Aja" albums, with Quincy Jones on "Body Heat" and "I Heard That" albums
- Larry Graham's work with Sly & The Family Stone, Graham Central Station
- Louis Johnson: Brothers' Johnson "Look Out for #1," "Right On Time" albums, work w/Quincy Jones
- Francis Rocco Prestia w/Tower of Power
- Jaco's self-titled album, and "Heavy Weather" (Weather Report)
- Stanley Clarke: "School Days," "Return to Forever"
- Bootsy Collins' self-titled albums, with James Brown on "Super Bad" and "Get On Up (I feel like a Sex Machine)"
- Jerry Jemmott with Aretha Franklin in the 60s & 70s, King Curtis
- Michael Henderson's self-titled album
- Willie Weeks work with Aretha Franklin in the 60s & 70s
- Every Earth, Wind & Fire album from the 70s and 80s
- George Porter Jr's work with The Meters
- Aston "Family Man" Barrett's work with Bob Marley & The Wailers
- Bakithi Kumalo's work on Paul Simon's "Graceland" album
- Me'shell Ndegeocell's self-titled album
------------
Stu Hamm told me to practice sight-reading at least a few hours each day, take care of yourself physically, and to take music business classes. He said that the role of the bass is to unite harmony & rhythm and not to be out-front (interesting, coming from him!)
------------
Jim Stinnett added Paul Chambers' work with Miles Davis to the above list, and also Phil Lesh, Oteil Burbridge (Oteil & The Peacemakers)
------------
Ron Mahdi recommended that I listen carefully to drummers, and the entire drum kit: play accents with the hi-hat & snare drums, lock in fundamentals with the kick drum. He also said that you shouldn't compromise your tone for a live situation (especially when using provided backline). He stressed that a bass player's job is to make the person up-front sound good, and to be there for the soloists to fall back on. He also recommended that you practice with a metronome and NOT while watching TV. He also recommended taking lessons from a good teacher rather than trying to teach oneself (or in addition to it).

He also stressed you should try to play "like a cat" - that is, with grace, and without any stiffness. The hands and arms should be relaxed, along with the back. He stressed that posture is important and that pain is the body's way of telling you that you're doing something wrong. He said it's important to have your action low and play with correct (light-touch) technique, rather than try to fight the instrument.

He said 1/4 notes are the "money" notes - that is, they pay the bills (in other words, 1/16th notes don't!)
------------------

I also got some great book recommendations that I wanted to pass along:

- Standing in the Shadows of Motown (by Allan Slutsky & James Jamerson)
- Reading Contemporary Electric Bass (Rich Appleman)
- Reading in Bass Clef, Vol. I, II, & III (Jim Stinnett)

I've got some more that I'll post if you're interested.

Hope this helps,

- Dave

Thanks for sharing and more, unlike in Bass lines, is better.:D

Your are a lucky guy to find the time, money and courage to attend.

Yeah, I'll be paying that credit card balance for months... :)

It was worth it, though. I met a lot of great people and have enough to keep me busy for years!

- Dave

glad you liked bass lines! I had to have been in the same room as you at some point since Im on stage crew at berklee and worked at david friend recital hall alot that week

Cool, Ballison! Small world, huh? Which shows did you work? I was at Danny Morris' Survey of Bass Styles, Ron Mahdi's clinic, Stu Hamm's clinic & concert, Jim Stinnett & Shane Allessio's Paul Chambers clinic, and the All Cows Eat Grass performance that same night.

- Dave

I noticed everything in that list was funky/jazzy.

What about people who just aren't into dancing music like that?

Have you ever seen the posts by the TBer who plays in Branson for one of the big name acts in town. He makes a lengthy post about once a year with an update about his life. I have found them very interesting.

Anyhow, he makes the point that bassist gets paid for time and tempo. When Victor Whooten went through town a few months ago and did a concert and workshop he made the point that Nate East and Daryl Jones each own an Island in the Caribbean and he (Victor) is still touring on a bus. I am sure an exaggeration but nevertheless echos what you heard.

Again, congratulations on your experience. I hope to be good enough to go attend some workshop next summer. What was the average age of the attendees at Basslines?

Thanks again for sharing.

I noticed everything in that list was funky/jazzy.

What about people who just aren't into dancing music like that?

Berklee's a jazz school deep down - it's really the foundation of all modern music that uses an electric bass. Not to say that you have to learn jazz to be able to play modern stuff, but if you can walk and groove, you can find work as a bassist, which is what Berklee is all about (IME).

What kind of music do you like, Poop-Loops?

- Dave

Have you ever seen the posts by the TBer who plays in Branson for one of the big name acts in town. He makes a lengthy post about once a year with an update about his life. I have found them very interesting.

Anyhow, he makes the point that bassist gets paid for time and tempo. When Victor Whooten went through town a few months ago and did a concert and workshop he made the point that Nate East and Daryl Jones each own an Island in the Caribbean and he (Victor) is still touring on a bus. I am sure an exaggeration but nevertheless echos what you heard.

Again, congratulations on your experience. I hope to be good enough to go attend some workshop next summer. What was the average age of the attendees at Basslines?

Thanks again for sharing.


I know who you mean; can't recall his name right now, but I chatted with him about lessons once. He seems like a nice guy.

I agree about the island thing - Ron Mahdi was pretty adamant about the "money note" idea (that is, 1/4 notes!)

The average age was probably 18. There were a few 16-17 year olds, and a lot of high-school grads considering coming to Berklee for college. There were a few people my age (20-23) and a few people older than me, out of about 80 total.

By the way, you don't have to be great to go to Berklee's summer programs. If you've been playing for the minimum of two years, you'll be fine. They split everybody into different level classes & ensembles and the minimum age to attend is 15. I wouldn't worry about it - take some of the advice above and by next year you'll be way ahead of ready.

- Dave

I know who you mean; can't recall his name right now, but I chatted with him about lessons once. He seems like a nice guy.

The average age was probably 18. There were a few 16-17 year olds, and a lot of high-school grads considering coming to Berklee for college. There were a few people my age (20-23) and a few people older than me, out of about 80 total.

By the way, you don't have to be great to go to Berklee's summer programs. If you've been playing for the minimum of two years, you'll be fine. They split everybody into different level classes & ensembles and the minimum age to attend is 15. I wouldn't worry about it - take some of the advice above and by next year you'll be way ahead of ready.

- Dave

Dave,

Is the guys from Branson's name Marcus Willet? If so, his picture is on the ThunderFunk amp page : here (http://www.thunderfunk.com/TF_Bass.html)

If there were a only few guys older than you at 23; I would drag the average age up quite a few notches. Maybe I could dye what hair I have left dark and change my beard to a goatee and get a few tats. Someone might think I am only 40. :D But, I doubt it.

Thanks for the advice about not to worry about being ready. Actually, I would like to go to BIT for an six quarter Associates degree. How's that for dreaming?

Thanks for sharing good advise there. Reminds me of a Bernad Purdie clinic I was at years ago. Bernard said its all about learning to play the quarter note, noting else matters.

I noticed everything in that list was funky/jazzy.

What about people who just aren't into dancing music like that?
Suck it up and learn some anyway. There will come a day when you will be too old to go down to the local original band bar with your metal or punk project, but you can play dance music until you die.

I noticed everything in that list was funky/jazzy.

What about people who just aren't into dancing music like that?

Those people already know everything.

Suck it up and learn some anyway. There will come a day when you will be too old to go down to the local original band bar with your metal or punk project

You mean like Geezer?

Berklee's a jazz school deep down - it's really the foundation of all modern music that uses an electric bass. Not to say that you have to learn jazz to be able to play modern stuff, but if you can walk and groove, you can find work as a bassist, which is what Berklee is all about (IME).

What kind of music do you like, Poop-Loops?

- Dave

I was thinking something more melodic than funky. I guess blues counts, too. Although I don't know if any of those groups were blues.

My teacher is essentially focusing on jazz, which is ok, but I can't really listen through funk music without wanting to stick a drill through my ears. It's just not me. Way too happy.

You mean like Geezer?
Um, I don't know if anyone broke this to you yet, but the likelihood of you or me or anyone having a career like Geezer's is pretty much nil.

Who said anything about a career? He's over 50 and still playing hard. Why can't I do that?

You can. It will just be awkward and embarrassing ;)

Back on topic.....great post Dave, thanks ! I will look forward to any follow-on you add :ninja:

The prevailing piece of advice seemed to be that learning music by ear, note-for-note, is the best way to get better.

The other big piece of advice from everyone I talked to was not to play too much...The consensus seemed to be that bass players nowadays get very caught up in the idea of playing fast or being out-front, and that 99% of the time, the bass player keeps time.

Stu Hamm told me to practice sight-reading at least a few hours each day, take care of yourself physically, and to take music business classes. He said that the role of the bass is to unite harmony & rhythm and not to be out-front (interesting, coming from him!)

Ron Mahdi recommended that I listen carefully to drummers, and the entire drum kit: play accents with the hi-hat & snare drums, lock in fundamentals with the kick drum. He also said that you shouldn't compromise your tone for a live situation (especially when using provided backline). He stressed that a bass player's job is to make the person up-front sound good, and to be there for the soloists to fall back on.

He also stressed you should try to play "like a cat" - that is, with grace, and without any stiffness. The hands and arms should be relaxed, along with the back. He stressed that posture is important and that pain is the body's way of telling you that you're doing something wrong. He said it's important to have your action low and play with correct (light-touch) technique, rather than try to fight the instrument.

He said 1/4 notes are the "money" notes - that is, they pay the bills (in other words, 1/16th notes don't!)

It all makes perfect sense to me...and largely corresponds to my own playing experience. Take heed, fellow bassists!

MM

You can. It will just be awkward and embarrassing ;)

I disagree - the key is to look and act your age, not like a 20 year old. You are right that a 45 year old guy trying to look like a kid will come of like a dork, but working with your age will work for you. Oh yeah, one more thing, if you are going to do gigs over 40, you better have the appropriate skill level.

I'm 20 now. Hopefully by 40 I'll learn something.

Ok, I won't derail the thread any more.

Um, I don't know if anyone broke this to you yet, but the likelihood of you or me or anyone having a career like Geezer's is pretty much nil.

+100 Just the odds of becoming a "Rock Star" are so slim. Look at the hundreds if not thousands of players out there trying to make it, and few make it a every year. Then of those the ones that last beyond a one or two albums are a handful. Then to still be playing and people listening to you a decade not many, especially bass players.

Now Funk players odds are a little better because Funk/dance music is popular with both males and females so there is more work on the circuit. just look at TV and the old bands that appear mainly R&B, Funk, and Pop. When was the last you saw and old Metal band on TV?

Jazz is a world of its own and old Jazz players hang in there and keep performing and teaching until they transition. Many end up moving to Europe, because there is more work for them there.

And let's not forget to add how the record business is in the toilet and not getting any better. Good points to mention, Steve.

Wow, this is a great thread! Thankyou.

I had a friend who got me onto bass and used to be able to listen to basslines once or twice, then play them! One of my goals is to vastly improve my playing by ear to emulate this skill best I can.

After ten years of self taught playing, I am getting my first bass lesson next week! After reading this thread, it looks like I have a lot of reference material to get me started applying what I learn.

Again, thanks!

Hey folks,
I've got some more that I'll post if you're interested.


Dave, you rinformation is excellent! I'm sure we'd all like more pearls of wisdom from your Berklee experience.

Great thread, Dave, thanks.

Looking forward to seeing a further update and more pearls of wisdom.

Walnut

Hey folks,

I thought I'd add a little more, then!

Jim Stinnett & Shane Allessio, during a clinic about Paul Chambers' work with Miles Davis, drove home a very important point: Practice is *the* key to being good. It seems so simple, but so many players neglect this. Shane, who is 20, was assisting Jim (Berklee faculty) for this clinic, performing the Paul Chambers examples. The clinic involved performing note-for-note transcriptions of Paul Chambers' solos.

Someone asked Shane how much he practices, and Jim stepped in and said, "Shane, I'm going to rephrase that question a bit. Do you practice more than 2 hours a day?"

Shane said, "Yes."

Jim said, "Do you practice more than 3 hours a day?"

Shane grinned a little and said, "Yup."

Jim asked, "Do you practice more than 5 hours a day?"

Shane said, "Yes, I do."

Then Jim asked, "Shane, how much do you practice?"

And Shane said, "I practice between 7-8 hours a day [on upright]."

The audience was a bit taken aback, but Jim said something I will never forget:

"Folks, we need to stop the clinic here for a second so I can go over something very important with you. What Shane does is not unusual for someone who wants to play at a professional level. This is what it takes to be an expert at something - anything. Practice is how you get better, and how you maintain your level once you're there. If you're not willing to practice several hours every day, you need to seriously consider if music is the right career for you."

Since I've gotten back from Berklee, I've been practicing at least 2 hours a day, although I want to practice more than that. Realizing how important practice is really made a difference to me. I've noticed some great improvements in my playing just in the last two weeks.

Bruce Gertz had some great advice about walking. He first said that walking is the foundation of a LOT of bass lines, and that the ability to walk well is one of the most important (if not the most important) things for a bassist to have.

He also said that walking is one of the easiest things to learn, and that it just takes practice and a little knowledge of theory. Walking is basically a combination of three things:

- Walking up or down scales (scalar approach)
- Walking up or down arpeggios
- Walking chromatically (approach notes)

Another piece of advice was to use chord tones on the 1 & 3. Apparently, you can play whatever you want on the 2 & 4 and it doesn't really matter, as long as you come "home" to a chord tone on the 1st and 3rd downbeats, the brain will fill in the rest. To walk well, you need to know some chord theory, and modes & inversions. Bruce stressed that knowing the modes is as important as knowing scales, and that if you don't know the locations of all the scale degrees up & down the neck in all the modes, that's a good place to start.

Again, though, the overriding piece of advice was to groove and not worry about "getting house" (flashy stuff). The bassist's job is to groove.

I gotta run, but I'll post more soon.

- Dave

Thanks for the post. I play in a rock and country cover band. Only been playing again for a year and a half or so. Pretty much everything I play is quarter or eigth notes. That's where my skill level is at and to my ears that what the song needs to help push it along and keep em dancing. But I was just beginning to wonder if it was enough.

Dave, these are gems. I'm subscribed; keep 'em coming!

Here's a little more:

I asked Ron Mahdi, who plays primarily jazz DB, if studying upright would be useful to an electric player. He said that being proficient at both would make you more valuable as a session player, and that upright players generally gain stamina and speed on electric as a result of the physical difficulties of playing on upright. However, he said, "If you want to play electric, spend your time playing electric." I thought that was interesting.

He also said that the role of the bass, again, is to provide the pulse, and also added that the role of the bass is to outline the chord [in jazz].

Ron said that it's important to take good physical care of your instrument. A bass will sound and play better if you clean it after you play it, keep the fingerboard oiled, the strings clean, etc.

Ron also said something funny that I thought I'd share. He said no matter what happens, the bass needs to keep going. The bass drives the band, and to quote Ron, "When's the last time you saw a bus go in reverse?"... Busses go forward!

He recommended practicing technique in front of a mirror. Your wrists should be straight and loose, and your body relaxed. Your fingers should have a gentle arch, and your fret-hand thumb should be near the edge of the neck, so that your fretting-hand fingers have the best reach (arc) over and across all the strings. This also allows you to spread your fingers further apart with control (dexterity). He said technique is very important, and that maintaining good technique from the very beginning is the best way to play difficult passages later on.

He said that "your sound is like how you dress," in that it's your own, and you shouldn't try to copy someone else, or you won't feel comfortable subconsciously. You should intrinsically "know" your tone, and when you hear it, you'll play better, and sound better to yourself and to everyone else. You shouldn't compromise your tone in any situation, whether recording or performing.

Ron recommended practicing with a metronome and working on making the metronome "groove." If you can swing with a metronome, you've got rhythm.

He also said something funny that I wanted to pass along: When a younger (16 or so) audience member asked him about playing 16th notes [rather than the 1/4 notes he recommended bassist stick with], he said, "When you're older, you'll find that a massage goes a long way."

He said he warms up with scales, arpeggios, and 7th-chord permutations, preferably with a metronome.

I'll add more later!

- Dave

Very cool thread Dave! I've subscribed to this thread for future reference.

Very cool thread Dave! I've subscribed to this thread for future reference.

Me too!!

Me three! Thanks...

I can't keep up with this info but please, keep it coming I'm taking notes!!

And I am conflicted between learning by ear now and ripping artists off :(

:D

Great post Dave!! Thanks!

I am a fledging bassist myself of 1 year (after 16 years on keys) and am all about playing 1/4 and 1/8 notes in the rock cover band I'm in and holding down the groove and keeping time!

I always feel 'inadequate' at <insert music store here> when checking out basses or rigs because right now my skill level I only play 1/4 or 1/8 note lines. Meanwhile everyone else is playing chords or slapping or leads on a 6 string, etc.

Feels good to know that the pros emphasize the basics (no pun intended)!

- Me'shell Ndegeocell's self-titled album

??

You probably meant "Plantation Lullabies" which is her first record, there is no think as a Me'shell self titled album.

Thanks for the info, and I hope you enjoyed your experience @ Berklee.

He recommended practicing technique in front of a mirror. Your wrists should be straight and loose, and your body relaxed. Your fingers should have a gentle arch, and your fret-hand thumb should be near the edge of the neck, so that your fretting-hand fingers have the best reach (arc) over and across all the strings. This also allows you to spread your fingers further apart with control (dexterity).



It is funny, the best two bass teachers I had in my life gave me that exact same advise.

Thanks for a great thread and for sharing all this valuable information.

Man, what a great thread!
Thank you so much, Muscato!

The list is very interesting. Pretty much R&B/soul/funk, with a smattering of other styles.

funny that you mention the basslines deal, i actually attend berklee right now and get all of the advice listed above at least once a week. i am currently working on making lead sheets for a lot (about 6) Sting songs, talk about simplicity from a rock/pop star. it's all about the song, all about the song. i think pino pallidino mentioned that in an interview with bassplayer mag... at least i could see him saying that.

one thing i'm not too sure if it was mentioned but another thing i have learned is that it is important to have an understanding of melody. to do so i've been encouraged to transcribe guitar and horn solos (miles, not necessarily coltrane). this has really pushed my understanding of melody.

my private instructor here, Dave Clark, told me a solo only needs to speak to the people in the room. it's not about the 320 bpm descending triplet line over 3 octaves that people will understand.

Your fingers should have a gentle arch, and your fret-hand thumb should be near the edge of the neck, so that your fretting-hand fingers have the best reach (arc) over and across all the strings.

Great info! As for this bit of advice, which edge top or bottom?

Here's the list:
(...)
- Me'shell Ndegeocell's self-titled album

Does Meshell Nedgeocello have a self-titled album?

The round bit, right in the middle of the neck. So as far from the fretboard as the neck gets.

The round bit, right in the middle of the neck. So as far from the fretboard as the neck gets.

I guess that depends on what Dave's definition of "edge" is. I was experimenting with thumb positions yesterday and found that having my thumb higher up on the "shoulder" of the fretboard allowed for less strain in my hand and smoother playing. I thought this wasn't "proper" but with that comment I'm wondering if it might be.

Tagging on for later study.

I believe he means the "bottom edge" of the neck, from an electric bass point of view. This allows the greatest reach and spread, as well as better arch in your fretting hand fingers.

Ron also said something funny that I thought I'd share. He said no matter what happens, the bass needs to keep going. The bass drives the band, and to quote Ron, "When's the last time you saw a bus go in reverse?"... Busses go forward!


That is real valuable advise and first time you use it you find just how valuable it is. Where I went to school they way they said it was "Wrong, but Strong!"

Many bass players when they make a mistake or think they are going to they drop down in volume and that makes you stand out like a sore thumb. Being bass you are the one instrument that can't stop or chunka-chunka like a guitars do. What is weird is when you do play "Wrong, but Strong" few if any even notice, they just know they still hear some bass pumping away. So it sucks to step on the bass line, but sucks more if the bottom fall out of the tune.

Again thanks for all these great tips you are sharing. They have a lot of value. :hyper:

Tagging on for later study.

I believe he means the "bottom edge" of the neck, from an electric bass point of view. This allows the greatest reach and spread, as well as better arch in your fretting hand fingers.

This is what I meant. I'm exaggerating a bit so it's easier to see, and normally, I would have the bass at a slightly more vertical angle, so my left wrist would not be bent -in this case, I just had the neck a little downward so I could get a better picture.

Notice how many frets I can reach without shifting positions - I can effectively the low D on the 3rd fret, B string, simultaneously sounding with the D on the 7th fret of the G string using this left-hand technique. This is the same technique classical guitarists use for better reach and cleaner articulation.

- Dave

There is no pic. Are you referring to your avatar?

Stu Hamm told me to...take care of yourself physicallyBased on the pictures I've seen of him in the Hartke ads recently, he might not be taking his own advice!

Try it now :)

Also, this is a pic of the aforementioned 2-octave reach. It's very comfortable with no pain if you do it right (thumb on the bottom edge of the neck). The angle is better on this picture, as far as how I normally hold the bass.

The second pic is a random classical player I found on Google, for reference.

Thanks for the visual aid. I get it now. I'll have to try it. I've been working really hard at playing with a more relaxed technique. I think this will help.

Based on the pictures I've seen of him in the Hartke ads recently, he might not be taking his own advice!

Yeah, he's getting to be a "bigger guy." Maybe that's why he said that - he's starting to realize it's good advice!

When I was playing classical guitar, my teacher told me pretty much the same thing, although I think he was talking about my hands, specifically.

As far as Berklee, though, I'm thinking about taking some online courses. They have for-credit classes for about $1k, and the summer semester starts on July 2nd. This might need it's own thread...

- Dave

You mean like Geezer?

My teacher is essentially focusing on jazz, which is ok, but I can't really listen through funk music without wanting to stick a drill through my ears. It's just not me. Way too happy.

This is clearly a joke right Poop? Cornflakes with no milk, toast with no butter, bass player with no funk... ahh... WHAT!

How is possible to be a bassplayer yet turn your back on some of the most melodic and challenging bass oriented music on the planet?

Maybe you're not sure what funk is. I'm here just north of you. Come on by one afternoon and I think you'll have a new outlook.

Try it now :)

Also, this is a pic of the aforementioned 2-octave reach. It's very comfortable with no pain if you do it right (thumb on the bottom edge of the neck). The angle is better on this picture, as far as how I normally hold the bass.

The second pic is a random classical player I found on Google, for reference.


I presume you're exaggerating the bend in your wrist, yes? If not, you're losing a lot of strength in your hand by bending your wrist so far. It also looks like you're holding the bass neck much more vertically than most folks. Is this something else recommended at Berklee?

-Eric.

Hey Dave, these are great posts with solid info.

I'd add Willie Weeks playing on Donny Hathaway's LIVE album to the learn list. Strong, supportive, musical...

And to the guy who mentioned Wrong & Strong -- I love that. Back in the 70s the mantra I was taught was: Low & Slow. Kinda says it all, don't you think?

Cheers!

I presume you're exaggerating the bend in your wrist, yes? If not, you're losing a lot of strength in your hand by bending your wrist so far. It also looks like you're holding the bass neck much more vertically than most folks. Is this something else recommended at Berklee?

-Eric.

I don't usually bend my wrist that much, but then, I don't usually sound D2 & D4 simultaneously, either :)

As far as the vertical aspect, it depends on the teacher - electric bass is a relative new-comer to the history of musical instruments, only the last 60 years or so. The shift from acoustic/jazzbox guitars to electric was pretty seamless as far as technique in the wrists, etc, but not so with double-bass. Playing pizzacato on upright bass works just fine, but when you move the instrument from vertical, in-front of your body; to horizontal, strapped around your torso, your technique has to change in order for you to get the same angles between your fingers and the strings, on both hands. The more vertical the bass, the more you can play the bass as though it were an upright.

Here's an example of playing an electric bass with "correct" upight technique (I can't put my thumb under the fingerboard, lol, but close enough). Anyway, as you can see, both wrists are very straight, and I have complete access to the fingerboard across all strings (the same as I would on a classical guitar, by keeping my thumb on the "bottom" (far right in the photo) edge of the neck):

The first photo in this post is how a lot of people play electric bass - right wrist bent pretty sharply, in order to maintain the angle of your right-hand fingers to the strings, and keeping the left thumb on the bottom edge of the neck, to maintain the angle of the fingers to the strings on that hand. This gives you great access to the strings, but unfortunately, both wrists are pretty sharply bent to make it happen.

The second photo is a hybrid of the two. Both wrists are pretty close to straight, and you have good access to the strings without losing dexterity or strength in your wrists. It looks a little goofy, but it's very effective.

I should say that this is what I do, and what some people teach, but there's no one "Berklee" technique - it depends on the teacher. Some techniques, anatomically, work better than others, but you should probably do whatever is comfortable and lets you play well without pain and with good tone & articulation.

- Dave

Here's a pic I found on Google of Gary Willis doing pretty much the same thing. His left wrist technique looks a little uncomfortable, in my opinion, but notice the angle of the bass neck - much more like an upright bass than a guitar.

I have also noticed Patitucci playing with a much more vertical orientation recently.

62183

Me, I tend to go more horizontal, and high up, which is clearly not good for my right wrist. See my avatar.

A lot of people play the way you do, WJG. I don't know if it's *wrong,* as much as that it is more likely to lead to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and other hand problems, rather than playing with your wrists straight.

Here's Victor Wooten and Mark King playing with "bad" technique... and I don't think anybody would argue that they're going to have short careers because of it :)

Mark King on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR-yS7z9Qdw

Here's Victor Wooten and Mark King playing with "bad" technique.Funny you would produce that particular Mark King clip. I have loved it for 20 years! I'd have to guess that most of my playing posture and habits have their roots in what he was doing at that point in his career, as humbly as I could emulate him while I struggled to develop something of my own identity. He managed to blend spectacular bass playing with mainstream appeal - the holy grail, in my view.

I always wondered what it is that somebody throws at him at 2:29 in that clip.

For the Stu comment - compare him now vs say, in his slap tap & pop video. He may have also been referring to wrists as well, after his urge tour he had severe wrist problems he had ot get fixed up.

The other interesting thing, they say "OMFG! QUARTER NOTES! UNF UNF!" right? Which is very true. However for their recommended learning most of them are fancy guys who play many notes. (Yes, I realize it is more challenging and learningiful (great word) to transcribe marcus miller or jaco vs adam clayton). That just stuck out.

I'd love to attend something like this somday, but the current outlook is not so good with how much I have to work, plus 3 kids, plus housework, plus everything else :( Maybe when the kids grow up in 20 years.

What a nice thread, Dave .... very thoughful of you to share so much excellent information :D

Regarding the hand positioning thing .... most teachers want a developing bassist to learn the "proper" way of doing things, and thumb/neck positioning is certainly one of the most commonly abused techniques. Once you get a feel for the "right" way you will invariably settle into your own comfortable style .... therein the reason for the styles and techniques of the established pro's being somewhat different than what they might teach & preach.

Same thing with the simplistic approach of 1/4 & 1/8th notes. Once you have developed a strong sense of time and rhythmic playing you can branch out a little .... :cool:

Pointbass, thanks for your post. I know what you mean... See my avatar for an example :) I started on classical guitar and learned the "proper" hand positioning, etc, but I still plug my thumb up over the top of the neck once in awhile, especially when I'm bending a string...

I started on classical guitar and learned the "proper" hand positioning, etc, but I still plug my thumb up over the top of the neck once in awhile, especially when I'm bending a string...
I'm a classically trained DB guy, so thumb positioning was drilled into me for years. The minute I went to a 7 string all that training went out the window .... my thumb is totally free floating on both the left and right hands ...... ;)

Thanks, Dave. You've inspired me.

I'm now going through the list, and transcribing them, by ear. This is giving me practice in playing 'the classics', learning by ear, and reading. All things I've felt I needed to improve.

Genuinely appreciated.

As a side note, I'm currently using the transcribe! software to playback the samples - built in EQ, speed control, looping - and note suggestions, when I get lost.

I haven't found the perfect software for the actual writing, though - yes, I could do it by hand, but with as disorganized as my paper filing system is, I'm afraid that it wouldn't be effective - much better to use decent software that allows me to write it using some sembelance of standard notation.

Edit: Found Finale NotePad. Seems to be perfect for what I'm looking for. I have my software to help me through these transcriptions.

wonderful thread. truly a great dialog on things bass players should know about.

to piggy-back on the practicing with a mirror thing, i was introduced recently to the alexander technique, a psycho-physical technique (i.e., using your mind to control and unteach your body) aimed at relearning all of the harmful habits we have trained ourselves to live with by the practice of noting the problem and it's associated sub-problems (i.e., for me, moving from a major "pattern" hand position to a minor "pattern" caused my left shoulder to tense, as well as my neck and right hand, odd but true) and then correcting them. this is all done with mirrors. i have been humbled and have taken three steps back in order to sort these problems out.

oh, check out this article in bassplayer magazine on the great Ron Carter. in his teaching, he makes his students watch themselves in the mirror.

http://www.bassplayer.com/story.asp?storycode=3990

When I attended Berklee Danny Morris was my ensemble professor. He's a really nice guy. At the time I could not really wrap my head around a lot of the stuff he would talk to the bassists about, but he was always open to questions and demonstrations. He would really go the extra step to try to explain things by using musical examples/real world experience. Looking back on some of the stuff I learned from him, and other professors at Berklee it really made an impact on the development of my playing and learning.

Yeah, Danny Morris seems really great. I've corresponded with him a bit over email since this program and he's been very insightful. I'd love to go there for school and learn some more from him.

The guitar player in my band is strongly considering going there next fall, and if he does, we are thinking about relocating to Boston. I'm not sure that I can afford Berklee at this point, but I may take some classes at one of the 60-whatever schools in Boston in the meantime, and maybe do something with Berklee, depending on what they have and what I can afford, maybe see if I can sit in on some classes. I think that just being around some of these guys, or taking private lessons from them, will really improve my playing.

Great and valuable information, thanks Dave.

Dave,
I hope you stayed away from Little Stevie's Pizza!

Dave,
I hope you stayed away from Little Stevie's Pizza!

That was the best back in the day. The old lady that used to slide the slices down the dirty counter to you. Priceless! :hmm:

SLICE!

Suck it up and learn some anyway. There will come a day when you will be too old to go down to the local original band bar with your metal or punk project, but you can play dance music until you die.

:rollno:

You can. It will just be awkward and embarrassing ;)

CRAP!!! I started at 16 in the U.K.been in bands all my life I am now 60 and am working in four bands,two jazz quartets,a country rock band and a 60;s R&R revival band.
I also run a yearly 3 day Jazz and Blues Festival in 8 venues that attracts 65 bands with about 400 musos.
<<www.waggajazz.org>> age is all in the mind.
Mike

as far as classical thumb placement or elevated thumb I think it depends entirely on the song (or even the part of the song) and I switch between them freely without noticing.

I find classical thumb placement less important on bass than guitar as generally we use the pads of our fingers whereas when playing guitar you need to use the Tip of your finger.

if you find yourself having trouble reaching things try out classical thumb placement and you'll find your life a lot easier. If not there's likely nothing wrong with your technique.

This is all just IMO/IME of course.

THIS THREAD IS GOLD
AND I AM A GOLD DIGGER

THANKS for all this, Dave!

I was also at the Berklee basslines program and i learned an incredible amount from the experience. not only did it put me in my place as to just how good i thought i was to see kids from all over the world, but also it pointed me in a new direction in terms of what to practice, for months after that MODES MODES MODES which was very good for my playing and especially for writing.

........ god forbid funk ever had any melodic nature to it

That was the best back in the day. The old lady that used to slide the slices down the dirty counter to you. Priceless! :hmm:

SLICE!

Omg..i forgot how "attractive" she was. :eek:
Thanks, I just threw up a little in my mouth.

Danny Mo is a monster. My mom is an Associate Prof of Voice at Berklee and Danny has played with my mom often both at gigs and on her albums. I've been lucky enough to see him live many times and he is one of the tastiest players I've ever heard. Never a busy player but his note choices are perfect. I plan to take at least a few semesters at Berklee.

Great thread!

I felt Danny was too nice a guy!

Personally, I prefer the face of evil...Jim Stinnett.

MUUUAAAAHAHAHA!

Jim Stinnett is great... so funny, so helpful, no sugar-coating, but in a good way. He cuts through to what needs to be said to improve your playing and says it. A great teacher.

so, after reading this thread I felt so inspired.. and today I ordered two books from bassbooks:
-Standing in the Shadows of Motown (by Allan Slutsky & James Jamerson)
- Reading Contemporary Electric Bass (Rich Appleman)

:)
cant wait to get it!:hyper:
I'll let you guys know what are they like when I'll finish with them!

so, after reading this thread I felt so inspired.. and today I ordered two books from bassbooks:
-Standing in the Shadows of Motown (by Allan Slutsky & James Jamerson)
- Reading Contemporary Electric Bass (Rich Appleman)

:)
cant wait to get it!:hyper:
I'll let you guys know what are they like when I'll finish with them!

Oh Man...if only you could actually "finish" standing in the shadows of motown. :smug:

Great information Dave! Very inspiring! Thank you for sharing. Also, the week clinic doesn't look that bad cost wise. Who knows...a thirty something average player like myself might have to see.

Best TB thread ever. Thanks for posting!

I kinda mirror what Pooploops mentioned in the start of the thread . All of the stuff you mentioned is Jazz/Funk . Call it bassplayer immaturity if you want , but I cannot tolerate either of those, and hell , I'm not even a total metal guy .

I found some Stanley Clarke stuff , his School Days album , and his Bass Collection . 15 mins into it , and I was out . I'm sorry I couldnt tolerate the extended slap and pop songs and all that .

I look upto a more melodic bassist . Now I know a lot of you are gonna be like " Funk is Melody !!!" , but when I say melody I mean something like Butler , Sheehan , Geddy and that sort of stuff . Any suggestions on those parts ?? Coz I really cant sit and transcribe 'lines for songs I dont even enjoy . Breaks the first rule of playing music ; Enjoy it.....

*bump*

Still waiting for an answer to the above.....

You don't consider jazz a melodic music?

Transcribe the horn solos instead of the bass parts if you want melody.
I suggest all of Miles Davis' solos from the album "Kind of Blue". Technically pretty easy, but you will learn soooo much about rhythm and harmony and melody from each one. When that gets too easy, move on to Coltrane's solos...

Personally I don't consider any of the bassists you mentioned to be particularly melodic (except maybe Geddy). But, if you like them, then transcribe your favorite lines of theirs. It's that simple. Find something you like and can't play, and learn to play it, exactly, with all the phrasing and inflection.

Actually I do consider Jazz pretty melodic , the same way that I respect Funk for it's groove , but that doesnt mean that I can actually appreciate it .

Sabbath basslines arent melodic ??

30 years ago I took lessons from Berklee's John Repucci.
He told me the best way to learn was to listen to records(back then)
and learn a tune note for note then write it out if you can.
Seems like some things never change.

Transcribe the horn solos instead of the bass parts if you want melody.
I suggest all of Miles Davis' solos from the album "Kind of Blue". Technically pretty easy, but you will learn soooo much about rhythm and harmony and melody from each one.+1. On that album, Miles played very few notes but picked them all carefully.

As far as sticking to what you enjoy - I get that, but I would also suggest that, especially based on the influences you listed, you might benefit from spending a little time with simpler music. By doing that, you will develop an ability to understand at a more sophisticated level what Billy Sheehan is doing in the Niacin stuff (for example), and eventually you will be able to integrate some of his ideas into your music. But if you are like most people, the "chops guys" are hard to use educationally without a running start.

My story was the same, by the way - in college I was so into John Patitucci that I had a hard time listening to anyone else. Patitucci is a wonderful player, but he is a very technically advanced player and it's hard to learn much from his playing until you have spent some time with Paul Chambers first.

As for jazz, I'll stick my neck out here and say that if you want to learn melodic interplay, and how one note works in the context of a certain chord, and how and why some notes don't work, you will have to get that information from jazz. There's no other contemporary style that evidences these concepts nearly as much.

Actually I do consider Jazz pretty melodic , the same way that I respect Funk for it's groove , but that doesnt mean that I can actually appreciate it .

Sabbath basslines arent melodic ??

Busy doesn't equal melodic, in fact, that's really the opposite of melodic (busy isn't necessarily bad though).

Just to say, best thread I've come across on TB

Glad to hear you enjoyed your stay here at Berklee! If only I had known that one of the Basslines guys buzzing around here was a TBer. Did they work on any other aspects with you guys other than bass playing? ie. eartraining, arranging, harmony, etc.?

It was a short course, so we didn't really get much into the nitty-gritty of theory. We had some varied classes about different things - building walking lines, for example - but it was mostly a LOT of tips for us to take home and chew over later, when we had more time. I'm still getting stuff out of my notes from that week, a year later.

As far as the comments about jazz/funk, well... It's the role of the bass player, in my opinion, and in the opinion of a lot of bass teachers, to study and play that kind of stuff. If you want to sound like Billy Sheehan, frankly, study guitar players, because that's what he's doing, just on a bass (I've done Berklee's summer program for guitar, twice, also - I actually only switched to bass a few years ago; I was a professional guitarist & private classical & electric guitar teacher before that).

Bass, to me, is about supporting the melody instruments. It's a bridge between straight-out rhythm of percussion and the chord structuring you get from guitar or piano. The goal of the bass, I think, is to hold down the fort while the other, higher-pitched instruments go exploring. Its role in music is foundational, not ornamental. It takes a different personality to play bass than it does to play guitar or trumpet or instruments like that. This is not to say a bassist cannot both explore & hold down the fort - there are plenty of other musicians (keyboardists, jazz guitarists who comp & solo, bassists like Billy Sheehan) who do this, too - I'm just saying, you have to understand why bass is there in a band setting in the first place - to more-or-less add pitch to the drums and form the other half of the rhythm section - before you take it to the lead-guitar sonic space.

I'm a hell of a soloist on guitar (and on bass and piano, too). But when I'm playing bass in a band setting, I switch modes. My hearing shifts - I'm listening to the kick drum, the hi-hat, the snare, the ride, and I'm pacing those movements. My mind is tuned in to the rhythm and tuned out from that space where you're creating melodies. That's not my job, as the bassist. I'm not saying it can't be, but when I listen to Billy Sheehan playing with Steve Vai, and they're doubling parts, tapping etc... well, he's playing a 4-string guitar tuned down a couple of octaves, man, not bass :smug: It just depends on what your goal is and where you find your voice. I found my voice in the low end, the supporting role, and have little desire to stray from that.

Quote: The other big piece of advice from everyone I talked to was not to play too much. The bass player's job very, very, *very* rarely involves tapping, double-thumping, slapping... really, anything except quarter and 1/8th notes. The consensus seemed to be that bass players nowadays get very caught up in the idea of playing fast or being out-front, and that 99% of the time, the bass player keeps time

I agree with everything except the slapping part. In some genres you simply can't avoid it. (not that I want to! ;))

Dave, this is a great thread with the best advise for both beginners and seasoned players. I've just started my 12 year old son on bass and this gives me a great foundation to lay for him as well as my other students. My son has an excellent ear and already reads bass clef from playing tuba and baritone in his school band. Even after playing for 38 years I still have so far to go and so much to learn.

Thanks

1/8th notes pay pretty well too

Quote: The other big piece of advice from everyone I talked to was not to play too much. The bass player's job very, very, *very* rarely involves tapping, double-thumping, slapping... really, anything except quarter and 1/8th notes. The consensus seemed to be that bass players nowadays get very caught up in the idea of playing fast or being out-front, and that 99% of the time, the bass player keeps time

I agree with everything except the slapping part. In some genres you simply can't avoid it. (not that I want to! ;))

YES YES YES! Great advice. Every single young player I talk to, is completely hung up on slapping/tapping/playing 32nd notes. I tell each and every one of them, "those are really neat tricks, but if you get in an actual gigging band, and get paid for it, you'll use those tricks about 2 minutes a night. Concentrate on timing and groove, and you'll be IN DEMAND."

Thanks for this thread, Dave.

It makes me feel good that the advice I am giving my 11 year old student about keeping it simple, focusing on being rock-solid with time and that any band he plays with will LOVE him if he holds down the bottom end this way.

All good/motivational info here, good thread. I was one of those that really didn't care for jazz growing up - and still don't - but am starting to broaden the horizons a bit. Not so much because I enjoy the music, just to get outside of the box so to speak. Have an old yamaha fretless that I'm gonna throw some flats on and start plunking around in that milieu.

Regarding Sheehan et al., Billy himself will be the first to say (and he has), don't learn from him, learn from the people he learned from. I was a total Sheehan nut growing up and still respect him immensely, but as he'll say, he is not the be-all, end-all. He also frequently mentions Jeff Berlin as the best bassist he's ever seen.


Of course, from what I hear, so does Jeff Berlin. :D

1/8th notes pay pretty well too

But only half as much as quarter notes. :)

But only half as much as quarter notes. :)

Considering I've made a lot more money playing lounge jazz versus driving rock and roll, I beg to differ. ;)

hey thanks for sharing dave

Glad to :)

YES YES YES! Great advice. Every single young player I talk to, is completely hung up on slapping/tapping/playing 32nd notes. I tell each and every one of them, "those are really neat tricks, but if you get in an actual gigging band, and get paid for it, you'll use those tricks about 2 minutes a night. Concentrate on timing and groove, and you'll be IN DEMAND."

Well, I don't think that's the right mentality over it. You should practice everything possible. What I think should be said is "how are you going to play 32nd notes, when you can't play quarter notes right?" Everything is built on top of a solid foundation. Focus on being accurate with basic etudes and move on from there.

...You should practice everything possible. What I think should be said is "how are you going to play 32nd notes, when you can't play quarter notes right?" Everything is built on top of a solid foundation. Focus on being accurate with basic etudes and move on from there.

Amen. And really the reverse of your statement is true also. "How are you going to play quarter notes right if you can't play 32nd notes".
I know it sounds slightly crazy at first, but when you break it down to exactly what is going on, the difference between the player who 'grooves' or is playing in the right style comes down to exactly when the quarter (or eighth) note is played... and I'm not talking about a difference in rhythm that could be notated. I'm talking about that very slight adjustment that puts the note 'right where it belongs'.
In other words, being able to play with well controlled speed is part of technique... the other part is knowing when to use it.

The ability to lay down a groove and perform the basics of your job as a bassist is what will keep you employed. I don't slap, tap or do solos, and I've got all the work I can handle while guys who can play circles around me are sitting down at the music store waiting for someone who cares to give them a gig.

What I try and do as a bassist is to have the audience watch the soloist while their heads bob in time with what I'm doing. If an average audience member comes up and tells me what a great job I did, as opposed to what a tight band we have, I'm probably overplaying.

Again, most of you could probably play rings around me, but I'm old, fat and ugly but I can lay down a groove and I'm playing.

Dave, how much did this Berklee program cost to be a part of?

Amen. And really the reverse of your statement is true also. "How are you going to play quarter notes right if you can't play 32nd notes".
I know it sounds slightly crazy at first, but when you break it down to exactly what is going on, the difference between the player who 'grooves' or is playing in the right style comes down to exactly when the quarter (or eighth) note is played... and I'm not talking about a difference in rhythm that could be notated. I'm talking about that very slight adjustment that puts the note 'right where it belongs'.
In other words, being able to play with well controlled speed is part of technique... the other part is knowing when to use it.
+1..

I've been in a practice rut for a week, I am having a hard time balancing upright bass practice, electric practice, jazz practice, rock practice etc into something that covers all the bases (no pun intended)

I will def. print this list out and use it, not as good as going to berklee but the next best thing! thanks

Thanks for sharing, It all sounds simple, yet you've given me a lifetime of stuff to work on from the OP.

And I've found that grooving feels better, I tend not to play rather than overplay when I'm part of the rhythm section, some lines have been open notes on the one, for the hip hop material we play, locked in with the kick and it makes people move!

YES YES YES! Great advice. Every single young player I talk to, is completely hung up on slapping/tapping/playing 32nd notes. I tell each and every one of them, "those are really neat tricks, but if you get in an actual gigging band, and get paid for it, you'll use those tricks about 2 minutes a night. Concentrate on timing and groove, and you'll be IN DEMAND."

True, but there is something to letting a kid be a kid. Why don't you tell him to quit playing the bass and focus on getting into medical school, because he'll make more money?
It's just music...it's supposed to be fun.

when I'm playing bass in a band setting, I switch modes. My hearing shifts - I'm listening to the kick drum, the hi-hat, the snare, the ride, and I'm pacing those movements. My mind is tuned in to the rhythm and tuned out from that space where you're creating melodies. That's not my job, as the bassist. I'm not saying it can't be, but when I listen to Billy Sheehan playing with Steve Vai, and they're doubling parts, tapping etc... well, he's playing a 4-string guitar tuned down a couple of octaves, man, not bass :smug: It just depends on what your goal is and where you find your voice. I found my voice in the low end, the supporting role, and have little desire to stray from that.

I'm glad to have found this thread, lot's of great advice here from people that live it. I quoted the above statement because everytime I see a 5, 6 or more string 'bass' and guys with these beasts on youtube playing solos, to me that's not a bass player, it's some hybrid bass/guitar soloist.

To me a bass comes with 4 strings and stays in the background, and if the band/song permits will come to the forefront with a few quick riffs, then moves back again keeping the groove. I tried to be wowed by these bass solos and lot's of extra strings, but it doesn't work for me.

Suck it up and learn some anyway. There will come a day when you will be too old to go down to the local original band bar with your metal or punk project, but you can play dance music until you die.

Jazz, where rock bassists go to die.

To me a bass comes with 4 strings and stays in the background, and if the band/song permits will come to the forefront with a few quick riffs, then moves back again keeping the groove. .


I guess thats cool "for you" but it's certainly NOT the definition of a bass or bass player in my book. I'm no Vic Wooten by far but I won't subscribe to that way of thinking. :ninja:

Busy doesn't equal melodic, in fact, that's really the opposite of melodic (busy isn't necessarily bad though).

Geezer wasn't a 'busy' player. I'd hardly call chugging root notes and unision lines with fills here and there 'busy'. Nonetheless, he was one of the first to break the mold of bassists being in the shadows. You have to give him credit for that.

Besides, a lot of Sabbath songs are really good despite not knowing tons and tons of theory. The ultimate test, the record-buying public, agrees with that. A lot of people forget who you're making an album for.

I guess thats cool "for you" but it's certainly NOT the definition of a bass or bass player in my book. I'm no Vic Wooten by far but I won't subscribe to that way of thinking. :ninja:

So if you're not focusing on holding the groove, who will? The guitarist? Get real. It's exceedling rare to find a guitarist whose main goal isn't to solo as much as possible to feed their own ego.

So if you're not focusing on holding the groove, who will? The guitarist? Get real. It's exceedling rare to find a guitarist whose main goal isn't to solo as much as possible to feed their own ego.

I'll add to that - IME is increasingly rare to find a guitarist who isnt either really pretty darned good or really pretty darned bad. Where have all of the average players gone?

Anyhooo, this thread is in my bookmarks. Thank you all.

[

I've got some more that I'll post if you're interested.

Hope this helps,

- Dave[/QUOTE]
More? Hope it helps? I just moved up a whole space just by reading your post! thanks man! That was for lack of a better adjective? Awesome.

Pretty alright thread, but for you groovetards(:p), I understand you're employed and you can lay a solid groove and you're in demand and whatever. Here's my saying, practice everything you can and are interested in. It'll make you a better player and heck you might feel better about yourself. Music is supposed to be fun and ear pleasing. What if tapping is fun, what if you enjoy slapping, what if you enjoy playing fast? So what, I've seen SO MUCH hate on TB on these things. Chances are, that the guys who are saying can't really do it. Yeah, if you want to be a working musician you better not practice this in rehearsel. What if you're in some band that does this, and is a little weird. There are no "rules" in music. You guys don't have to be such **cks about other techniques. Yeah, learn your role as a bass player, and learn other things. You have only 1 life, and why not make it fun and interesting? If it's your job and they're telling what to do, you should listen. However, not everyone is doing music for the money, a lot of people have actual jobs and they do music for fun. Just have fun, and remember that.

Its pragmatism, some of these people have years of experience and are just passing it on.

Great thread; I'm going to Berklee in three weeks for the 5-week program and I have no idea what to expect!

While i do agree that sweep double-thumbing techniques tend to be overkill as well as tapping and such, if you are in a band already and arent a bassist-for-hire or session artist looking to make money doing such things, if you just play 1/4th and 1/8th notes then you are really doing a disservice to only yourself and the instrument.

Now before I get flamed on about why I feel this way, let me state that everyone has their own style and what works for them works for them, but I would be furious if i paid all that money to be told to challenge myself less as a bassist in a real playing environment....REALLY furious lol. Just my opinion, I think we should use grace in our playing and understand the time to pluck and the time to slap, but not forget to push the limits so we don't get too comfy.

How old do you have to be for their program?

While i do agree that sweep double-thumbing techniques tend to be overkill as well as tapping and such, if you are in a band already and arent a bassist-for-hire or session artist looking to make money doing such things, if you just play 1/4th and 1/8th notes then you are really doing a disservice to only yourself and the instrument.

Now before I get flamed on about why I feel this way, let me state that everyone has their own style and what works for them works for them, but I would be furious if i paid all that money to be told to challenge myself less as a bassist in a real playing environment....REALLY furious lol. Just my opinion, I think we should use grace in our playing and understand the time to pluck and the time to slap, but not forget to push the limits so we don't get too comfy.

"Pushing the limits" is fine when you're practicing by yourself or leading your own band, but that'll get you fired from a paying gig.

Amen. And really the reverse of your statement is true also. "How are you going to play quarter notes right if you can't play 32nd notes".
I know it sounds slightly crazy at first, but when you break it down to exactly what is going on, the difference between the player who 'grooves' or is playing in the right style comes down to exactly when the quarter (or eighth) note is played... and I'm not talking about a difference in rhythm that could be notated. I'm talking about that very slight adjustment that puts the note 'right where it belongs'.
In other words, being able to play with well controlled speed is part of technique... the other part is knowing when to use it.

I don't really like using arbitrary words like "grooves" because it really doesn't mean anything. There is no clear definition of the term. It's like about as relevant of a word as like "heavy." I try to be more precise with how I communicate.

I don't really like using arbitrary words like "grooves" because it really doesn't mean anything. There is no clear definition of the term. It's like about as relevant of a word as like "heavy." I try to be more precise with how I communicate.

When someone grooves you can just feel it. It transcends semantics. It can't be explained; that's the beauty of it.

Yeah if my band director tells me to play a solo, and I keep playing quarter notes like I'm just walking a line, those quarter notes wouldn't pay me very much...
I'm just saying, you have to be versatile...

"Pushing the limits" is fine when you're practicing by yourself or leading your own band, but that'll get you fired from a paying gig.How 'bout if you get paid for leading your own band? Seems to me that's a lot more work, but in the end, very much where it's at.

When someone grooves you can just feel it. It transcends semantics. It can't be explained; that's the beauty of it.

See, that's what we call nonsense.

See, that's what we call nonsense.

That's what you call nonsense...

See, that's what we call nonsense.

You are really missing out if you don't get it.

Just keep practicing.

:D

Joe.

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but I have to ask the groove players a question. Don't you think solid groove basslines can have a melodic quality? In Jazz the best walking basslines can stand by themselves as melodies. And what about being able to play a good melodic solo with good time, note choice, and rhythm? After all it is music and music involves all of these things. I'm not a slapper, tapper, or any other fan of "special effects" on any instrument, but I strive to play solid AND melodic lines support as well as solos. The practice of each can support the other. Another point I wanted to mention, what do you think guys like Geezer were influenced by? There wasn't that much out there other than blues, jazz, classical, R&B, and 50's rock and roll. So when you think about it, learning as much music as possible can be helpful. Personally, I'm an old Metal player, got sick of the local scene and discovered funk and then jazz. Now I feel like my musical life has new breath, I've come to a point now where I will play anything I find fun and interesting. After all of these years it's all just notes and rhythm to me.

Why does it need to be so black and white?