:help: ok i jammed with a couple of friends last weekend and my motto is "george don't get stupid just make it groove and keep time" so we're playing at first with just one guitarist and a drummer and that went great i pumped out the groove perfectly i thought, then the lead guitarist shows up and they all of a sudden wanna play trippy-hippy fusion and that's just not me, ever since then i've been questioning my abilities and i've tried to get my two finger speed up, heck i've even considered using three fingers just so i could jam again and pump out and insane amount of notes. But honestly, is there anything wrong with just wanted to groove and keep time, i'm not just playing root notes but i'm not playing jaco-esque basslines either, more jamerson type stuff to get the butts out of the seats and dancin i guess. So i ask you fellow bassists, have you ever run into this dilema before and what did you finally decide on?:help:

I've never run into the dilemma as you put it, but I am definitely in your shoes. There's nowhere I'd rather be on stage than all cozy and warm tucked way into the back of the pocket. To be quite honest, drummers and guitar players both seem to appreciate that very much.

yea that's what i thought too, maybe we're a dying breed.......nah

I've never run into the dilemma as you put it, but I am definitely in your shoes. There's nowhere I'd rather be on stage than all cozy and warm tucked way into the back of the pocket. To be quite honest, drummers and guitar players both seem to appreciate that very much.Yeah - a much more prevalent problem around here in my view is bassists that claim to be BORED if a bass line is too simple or repetitive... It really irks me to hear that!

I don't think you can be faulted for saying that groove is your priority, and your joy!

Joe

do you guys think i should try to expand my playing to be able to play in situations like that though, i mean is there a way to groove in fusion/punkish type of music?

Sounds to me like you're a real bass player. That's what it's all about.

With that said, I don't think it would be a bad thing to branch out in to some new territories. The key, IMO, is to find the technical stuff (fusion or whatever) that grooves and still speaks to you on that "groove" level. Jaco's stuff was pretty technical by most standards but every note I ever heard him play was deep and grooved like nobody's business. Heck, Jaco could play one whole note with his trademark vibrato and knock me to the floor but that's another story.

Being a groove-oriented guy branching out in to more technical stuff might very well be better than being a technical guy trying to learn how to groove with the simpler stuff. Some guys can play Jaco stuff note-for-note but don't groove one ounce with it and it really shows when they play the simple stuff. They usually get bored and play too busy to clutter stuff up so that they can hide the fact that there's no groove in their playing.

In the end, the technical/fusion stuff may not be your cup of tea but being able to hang with it will make you all the more versatile and will make you a better bass player, IMO. You may even get a gig just because you can do that bag, even though the gig may not require it. It's happened to me.

can anybody recommend any technical/fusion bands where the bassist still grooves, thanks!

Anything Jaco played on (Weather Report)
The Yellowjackets
Herbie Hancock (Headhunters)
anything by Tower of Power (Rocco Prestia)

Ditto that list.

From a historical perspective, check out Miles Davis's stuff from the '70's. Miles is the guy pretty much credited with starting the whole electric jazz (aka fusion) movement. Weather Report founders Joe Zawinul and Wayne Shorter as well as Herbie Hancock played with Miles during the birth of the fusion movement. Quite a few of the fusion pioneers played with Miles so it's worth it to check him out, if only to get some of that "where does it all come from" perspective (then, take it back even further).

Now for some more of the "groovy" stuff:

Chick Corea and Return To Forever's "Romantic Warrior" album is a classic "fusion-fest" with Stanley Clarke playing bass. (Drummer) Lenny White's composition is probably the most groove-oriented on the recording.

Stanley Clarke's self-titled recording. The tune "Lopsy Lu" is practically a bass anthem - slapping with a 12/8 time sig.

Marcus Miller with his own group, with Miles and with David Sanborn.

Brand X

> can anybody recommend any technical/fusion bands
> where the bassist still grooves, thanks!

Golly. Subjective (just what *is* a grooveanyway?), but I think Stuart Hamm really REALLY grooves while playing with Steve Smith and Frank Gambale. Gambale tends to shred a lot (which I like, usually), but many of the tunes on their 3 CDs together IMHO lay down serious grooves, and get more melodic and brain-twisting than just shredding. I'd start with GHS 3, their third CD, even though the first CD has arguably more funky bass grooves on it. Heck, get them all. What musicians and composers!

Notes are fatal.
Sometimes, it can be too much, sometimes it can be too little.
It's why playing bass is so fun!
Keeps you on your toes!

this is an interesting topic...Let me bring up something else I've noticed about technique and "the groove". Have any of you all noticed that a lot of classic rock bassists didn't really get in the pocket with the drummer and lock down a groove with them all that often (so to speak)?? A lot of the old classic rock bassists seems to lock in with the guitar players in the band more so than the drummer, or just kind of do their own thing. When covering classic rock tunes, I sometimes (depending on the song) find myself looking for the groove or pocket with the drummer, which really can change the feel of those old tunes...sometimes making them feel very cool...sometimes just making them feel different...lol

listen to a lot of old jazz records, miles davis, charlie parker etc etc

They have alot of upbeat jazzy basslines, try learning some of them and use that to get a basis for your playing.

I don't think people should just jump right into this "fusion" business. Its combing jazz and rock, therefore you shouldn't learn some half ass in the middle thing and just call it fusion. Rather learn some jazz as it seems your reasonably proficient with rock. Besides, jazz never hurt anyone. Sorta.

...Now for some more of the "groovy" stuff...Who's that black lady with a name I never could pronounce (like an African-sounding name)...? I've linked from here to a couple clips of her - and DANG! That lady grooves.

Joe

i can play walking basslines pretty well but that wouldn't have went over well at all with the music that they were playin i don't think. Thanks for all the recommendations guys, and since we're on the subject of the groove i have another question, i read an earlier post by fishtx and he said that normally the bassist locks in with the guitarist instead of the drummer, my question is, is it still possible to create a pocket while locking in with the guitarist or is the pocket strictly for the bassist and the drummer to make?

Meshell Ndegeocello is that who you are speaking of?

Meshell Ndegeocello is that who you are speaking of?Yes!

Listen to HER, and you'll hear extreme pocket.

Joe

speed and ability arent always the same thing. you certainly can have both. you certainly can have one of either.
a long time ago i came to terms with the fact that i will never be a really fast player. be it genetics, career choices(hands have taken a beating through the years), or whatever. Im just not what most would consider fast. Instead of putting a lot of energy into chasing speed i worked on being smooth, and using other things to try to make my playing more interesting like subtle vibrato, sliding into notes, using chords. and im not going to say that groove is king or the pocket is the only place to be because sometimes it isnt. its okay to go outside. you dont always have to lay back. but you dont need to be fast to be an interesting player. style and consistency will get you far. learning how to work off of variations of a theme is another way to add interest to a line. even a simple line with some variation added every eight bars will keep it interesting. all i really am trying to say is dont guage your ability by your speed. you will be short changing yourself. if you do work to develop the speed you want then you will just have another tool to use.

this is an interesting topic...Let me bring up something else I've noticed about technique and "the groove". Have any of you all noticed that a lot of classic rock bassists didn't really get in the pocket with the drummer and lock down a groove with them all that often (so to speak)?? A lot of the old classic rock bassists seems to lock in with the guitar players in the band more so than the drummer, or just kind of do their own thing. When covering classic rock tunes, I sometimes (depending on the song) find myself looking for the groove or pocket with the drummer, which really can change the feel of those old tunes...sometimes making them feel very cool...sometimes just making them feel different...lol

Yup, very true. Check out early Marshall Tucker Band or Government Mule stuff for a lesson on how the bassist can go in his own direction and somehow it all sticks together in the end.

If I had to guess, I'd say that several of the bassists in rock bands of the era were guitarists handed a bass just before the first gig happened. JPJ and Leo Lyons are notable exceptions, obviously.

listen to a lot of old jazz records, miles davis, charlie parker etc etc

They have alot of upbeat jazzy basslines, try learning some of them and use that to get a basis for your playing.

I don't think people should just jump right into this "fusion" business. Its combing jazz and rock, therefore you shouldn't learn some half ass in the middle thing and just call it fusion. Rather learn some jazz as it seems your reasonably proficient with rock. Besides, jazz never hurt anyone. Sorta.
Oh, I don't know about all that...

Some might argue that you shouldn't jump right in to this "bebop business" (Miles and Bird) and should listen to a lot of the old jazz records with Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, etc.

I think you jump in wherever you want and then take it backwards and forward from there. I do think that players that can really play straight ahead jazz are much better "fusion" players than the ones that don't but that's a different topic.

Donna Lee! groovy...

I might get yelled at for this but...listen to some Dave Matthews Band. Their bassist is phenominal. He masters subtleties, simplicity, & complication while keeping it all groovy.

do you guys think i should try to expand my playing to be able to play in situations like that though, i mean is there a way to groove in fusion/punkish type of music?

yes, but let me qualify a little.

you are ahead of the game by having that desire to be supportive and let others do their thing, that is a mental aspect that most immature (not necessarily beginners, but people who don't want the music to sound as good as it could instead of wanting to be showcased) fall prey to. This is good.


BUT, if you can't shine when asked to shine, you'll always wonder when the time comes up for you to do something cool, if you could have done it better or blah blah blah. If you got the skills to keep in the pocket now, great. You should work on being able to NAIL the extra credit lines, cause honestly technique wise that just takes more work. this is by no means a necessity, but if you want to practice something, pumping out 16th notes at 140-160 bps constantly and fluidly is a great skill to have, and only broades what you can do. Actually, it can provide alternative pocket grooves instead of just shining as well.

Yes. As a bassist, you are supposed to be able to adjust to what your guitarist and other instrumentalist plays. You're supposed to study all types of music, not just ones you like, but also the ones you don't like, and change between the types or combine them when the situation comes. That's the theory I live by.

i can play walking basslines pretty well but that wouldn't have went over well at all with the music that they were playin i don't think. Thanks for all the recommendations guys, and since we're on the subject of the groove i have another question, i read an earlier post by fishtx and he said that normally the bassist locks in with the guitarist instead of the drummer, my question is, is it still possible to create a pocket while locking in with the guitarist or is the pocket strictly for the bassist and the drummer to make?

To me, "the pocket" simply refers to playing the notes, and hitting the chord changes, at the right time. What is the right time? It could be syncing up with the drums or it could be syncing with the guitar. Usually, it's actually both. The drum is more important because the guitar will often times go off into la-la land doing crazy solos and fills.

As an example, if the guitar is playing a blues shuffle but the bass is playing straight eighth notes. It's going to sound out of sync. Also, say the drummer is playing the kick drum on each beat. In this case, the bass is synced with the drum, but not the guitar. It'll won't sound right.

You need to find that balance where your bass lines fit in between the drums and guitar. What you do with them from there depends on the band your in, your abilities, etc.

This is one of the things that makes guys like Jaco and Wooten so amazing. They can play some really crazy stuff, but it still fits the song like a glove. That's hard to do.