Hello,

A couple of years ago I was in a workshop at Hammond Ashley here in the Seattle area. I am sorry to say that I cannot recall the bassist's name (he was kind of "avant gard" style jazz from France).
It was a fun class. He stated that he was not a fan of electronic tuners and preferred the bow and the harmonics.

My question is this; I am able to tune in such a fashion, but need a starting note. I have read about using a tuning fork and am wondering if the A is where to begin.

I would appreciate any elaboration on how best to tune (without benefit of a tuner or keyboard).

Thx!

Hi,
Tuning with an A tuning fork works quite well. So does tuning to a piano or other instrument or getting one string in tune with the tuner. I tune first with the A harmonic on the D string ( on electric at the "7 th fret"). I then tune the other strings with harmonics : D harmonic on the g string (7 th fret) to the D harmonic on the D string ( 5 th fret) and so on. Check for any waves that wobble in the sound. When it is completly in tune there will be no wave. The closer they are the slower the wave. If I am tuning to a chordal instrument, I like them to play an A sus chord and I tune my harmonics to that. That way if the piano is slightly out of tune, I can get tuned in balance. Tuning by ear helps one to hear and think about pitch all the time as opposed to relying in the visual of a tuner for every string.

Thank you so much! I guess it is time to go buy a tuning fork!

I have seen several threads that talk about tuning forks and I use one myself. I have a friend that is a piano tuner and he is adamant about making sure the fork is at room temperature. At the factory they are calibrated at 70 degrees according to him. Is this a big deal or is my buddy being a... well... piano tuner?

I'm a tuning fork user myself. It's the quickest and cheapest solution. Electronic tuners get too iffy for basses.

One interesting thing tho: I attended a Ron Carter workshop a few months ago. He fervently discouraged using harmonics to tune the instrument and impressed upon us to learn to tune the instrument using the open strings and hearing the 4ths. I've been able to get in the ballpark using open notes but still use harmonics to doublecheck. Food for thought.

I'd love to hear some thoughts on this. With all the tuning methods people discuss we are really talking about a few cents difference. I've tuned all different ways and I just end up using my ears to tweak the tuning over the course of the set based on what I hear around me.

Its weird I tune with harmonics after getting an A from either a Metronome drone, tuner or piano, but sometimes I find I'm more accurate using forths on the open strings especially the A and E strings.

I always use a fork, unless I'm eating soup. But seriously, I've been using a tuning fork for years now, and I find that it's much easier to use that than the A on a metronome, or something similar. A note from a piano is also very helpful, as long as the piano is well enough in tune.

One way to tune using harmonics and open strings is to tune in 5ths, by using double stops. Play the octave harmonic on the A string, and in the same bow play the open D string. It's another tool for ear training, and it's something I do to get the strings close to being in tune. At the same time, it's good practice for bowing double stops (does one string get more pressure than the other, or do you try to have them equal?). I usually do this in addition to tuning in harmonics the normal way, or in 4ths.

A note from a piano is also very helpful, as long as the piano is well enough in tune.

- I use a tuner and then the Harmonics to check it. I never tune to pianos, they are so rarely in tune. My bass is happiest with a nice 440 A.

My guitar colleague likes to tune to about A=445. I've been playing with the guy for five years and I've never been able to figure out why he likes that, but the does. So I just get a reference from him -- usually a G -- and tune from there with harmonics.

If I recall right, Ray Brown used to like to have pianos tuned to about A=438. Again, can't remember why.

This is Ron from the foreword (which he calls the fiveword...?!?!) of Chuck Traeger's book -
"...I have to tell Chuck that I still think the bass sounds better at A-438!"

If there is a real piano on the gig not compensating for it and using an electric tuner instead seems dangerous to me. I often use a tuner in addition to a tuning fork if there is an ep or guitar or neither but if there is a real piano on the gig I at least see how close it is and try to work it into the tuning maddess.

Often I will have the piano player play some sort of A chord with a rootless voicing. This gives me a good idea of where the A is. Then I go from there.

I've been using a electric tuner lately. Seem to make setup quicker and there's no guess work involved. Course I've been playing a lot with guitar players recently and they all use em.

Pick up a telephone and it sounds an "F" and an "A" with the "A" being the stronger of the two. Plus, it's A440.

Also, this site is useful:

www.metronomeonline.com/

Tuning with a tuning fork is a beautiful thing. However, it requires a little more time and a quiet space. A jazz club at 9PM is a perfect time to use a tuner.

Tuning with a tuning fork is a beautiful thing. However, it requires a little more time and a quiet space. A jazz club at 9PM is a perfect time to use a tuner.

I think this is a good point - in a similar vein, a lot of non-bass players ( mostly musicians) say to me that they can't really hear the pitch of Double Bass and just feel it as a low thud ...and yet we spend so much time and effort tuning the things! :p

...Check for any waves that wobble in the sound. When it is completly in tune there will be no wave. The closer they are the slower the wave.
This is a commonly-held belief . . . but it's NOT true!
The problem is that the harmonic at the 7th "fret" is a couple cents SHARP of the correct, equal-tempered note . . . that method DOES get you "close", but NOT, IMO, close enough . . .

And Ron Carter has got the right idea, but tuning that way (getting the 4ths "perfect") doesn't result in open strings that are in tune with equal-temperment, either (IIRC it is in tune with "just temperment")

...If I am tuning to a chordal instrument, I like them to play an A sus chord and I tune my harmonics to that. That way if the piano is slightly out of tune, I can get tuned in balance...
VERY, VERY GOOD!

...Tuning by ear helps one to hear and think about pitch all the time as opposed to relying in the visual of a tuner for every string.
Also very good . . .

:cool:

This is a commonly-held belief . . . but it's NOT true!
The problem is that the harmonic at the 7th "fret" is quite a few cents FLAT of the correct, equal-tempered note :


Since when did we have frets!!?? :eek:


:p

Since when did we have frets!!??

... and, therefore, since when did a bassist's tempered tuning come from anywhere but his brain and hands?

Since when did we have frets!!??
Hey, I was just continuing in the same style as Lynn Seaton, the host of this particular forum . . .

...I tune first with the A harmonic on the D string ( on electric at the "7 th fret"). I then tune the other strings with harmonics : D harmonic on the g string (7 th fret) to the D harmonic on the D string ( 5 th fret) and so on...
Bruce, would you have liked it better if I had said "the harmonic at the 7th "fret" position"?



... and, therefore, since when did a bassist's tempered tuning come from anywhere but his brain and hands?
When he's playing an open string!!

And, depending on which string you start with (the "A" double octave harmonic at the 5th "fret" position of the "A" string, which IS in tune with the "correct" equal-tempered note; the "A" octave and a perfect fifth harmonic at the 7th "fret" position of the "D" string - which, as I said, is NOT in tune with the "correct" equal-tempered note; a "G" double octave harmonic at the 5th "fret" position of the "G" string, which IS in tune with the "correct" equal-tempered note - or with WHATEVER harmonic - in tune or not - that you want to use), the other OPEN STRINGS will NOT be in tune with the equal-tempered chromatic scale by some small amounts . . .

Physics . . .

And that's true using Lynn's method of tuning OR Ron Carter's!

Well - I can see and agree with you that frets on BG are slightly wrong - but if you don't have frets and you are using your brain/ear/hands (as Damon says) how can it be wrong!! :confused:

... if you don't have frets and you are using your brain/ear/hands (as Damon says) how can it be wrong!!
the OPEN STRINGS . . .

If you use the "A" double octave harmonic of the "A" string (which IS in tune with the "correct" equal-tempered note) as your starting point, the other OPEN STRINGS will be out of tune.
Using Lynn Seaton's method of comparing "similar" harmonics, "Check(ing) for any waves that wobble in the sound", will result in the OPEN "E" and "D" strings to be slightly flat (1.96 cents flat) and the "G" string to be more flat (3.92 cents flat).
Using Ron Carter's method of tuning (with perfect 4ths) results in the OPEN "E" and "D" strings to be slightly sharp (1.96 cents sharp) and the "G" string to be more sharp (3.92 cents sharp) . . . but that IS close to "being in tune" . . .



BTW, If you use the "A" octave and a perfect fifth harmonic of the "D" string as your starting point, NONE of the OPEN strings will be in tune!

The OPEN STRINGS are a trivial matter. You play in tune with the instruments you're playing with. Is the un-temperedness of your open string really bumming you out as you're playing? Don't play the open string.

This is Ron from the foreword (which he calls the fiveword...?!?!) of Chuck Traeger's book -
"...I have to tell Chuck that I still think the bass sounds better at A-438!"

Maybe he calls it a fiveword because it precedes Chapter 1 - chordal analogy.

I find it amusing that a guy named Deaf Pea knows so damn much about the physics of the string and the overtone series. HA!

the OPEN STRINGS . . .

If you use the "A" double octave harmonic of the "A" string (which IS in tune with the "correct" equal-tempered note) as your starting point, the other OPEN STRINGS will be out of tune.
Using Lynn Seaton's method of comparing "similar" harmonics, "Check(ing) for any waves that wobble in the sound", will result in the OPEN "E" and "D" strings to be slightly flat (1.96 cents flat) and the "G" string to be more flat (3.92 cents flat).
Using Ron Carter's method of tuning (with perfect 4ths) results in the OPEN "E" and "D" strings to be slightly sharp (1.96 cents sharp) and the "G" string to be more sharp (3.92 cents sharp) . . . but that IS close to "being in tune" . . .

BTW, If you use the "A" octave and a perfect fifth harmonic of the "D" string as your starting point, NONE of the OPEN strings will be in tune!

Hm, this assumes tempered pitches are always "correct" or closest to what is "in tune" - which is definitely not correct :-)

Try this with a newly tuned grand piano (or perhaps a synthesizer/etc):

1) tune the D string to the piano
2) tune the A string from the D-string using harmonics (you will probably have to re-tune the D string and repeat).
3) Play "D" below middle C at the piano and 3:rd harmonic (double octave) of the A string - this will sound a perfect fifth. (and not a "tempered" perfect fifth which would be the result if you played A at the piano).
4) Play the 4:th harmonic of your D string - an F#. Sounds perfectly right, no?
5) Compare the harmonic to the F# above middle C at the piano. You will find that the harmonic is considerably lower than the F# of the piano. So which is "correct"? (Both, probably).

The same could hold, perhaps to a lesser degree, for open strings. Fortunately we don't have to play open strings if we don't want to (except from the open E).

I find it amusing that a guy named Deaf Pea knows so damn much about the physics of the string and the overtone series. HA!
Yeah, me too!

BTW, I'm NOT making this up . . .
the info in my profile is also 100% verifiable fact . . . check it out, you might be surprized . . .

Hm, this assumes tempered pitches are always "correct" or closest to what is "in tune" - which is definitely not correct :-)

Try this with a newly tuned grand piano (or perhaps a synthesizer/etc):

1) tune the D string to the piano
2) tune the A string from the D-string using harmonics (you will probably have to re-tune the D string and repeat).
3) Play "D" below middle C at the piano and 3:rd harmonic (double octave) of the A string - this will sound a perfect fifth. (and not a "tempered" perfect fifth which would be the result if you played A at the piano).
4) Play the 4:th harmonic of your D string - an F#. Sounds perfectly right, no?
5) Compare the harmonic to the F# above middle C at the piano. You will find that the harmonic is considerably lower than the F# of the piano. So which is "correct"? (Both, probably).

The same could hold, perhaps to a lesser degree, for open strings. Fortunately we don't have to play open strings if we don't want to (except from the open E).
This is EXACTLY my point . . . the "higher" F# IS the "correct" pitch . . . that harmonic F# on the D string is NOT in tune with the equal-tempered scale.

For a couple of hundred years now, we (musicians here in the western world) have agreed to use the equal-tempered scale . . .

The frequency offset between the 5th freat harmonic on the E-string and the 7th fret harmonic on the A-string on a bass tuned after equally tempered metods (which at least covers most correctly intonated fretted basses) is ~0.19Hz. This will be audible as the frequency of the tremulo/percussion effect of the superimposed tones.

For a couple of hundred years now, we (musicians here in the western world) have agreed to use the equal-tempered scale . . .

With all respect I think this is a rather common misconception. In any choir, string quartet, big band, etc. there is intonation and small adjustments going on. For instance, minor thirds are sung/played slightly sharp (compared to their equal-tempered counterpart), minor sevenths slightly flat, leading tones slightly sharp, etc.

Well then, deaf pea, how does one accurately tune a doubl bass?

Well then, deaf pea, how does one accurately tune a doubl bass?

That's my point . . . I think that we bassists need to be aware of the fact that the open strings are not necessarily "in tune" with the notes of the equal-tempered scale. Just as I am "aware" that NONE of the notes on my fretted slabs are "in tune" with the notes of the equal-tempered scale. When I'm recording (on the fretted slab), I usually tune (using a Peterson strobe tuner) the notes that are the "most important" in the particular key that the song is in (those note positions that I'll actually be using in the bass part). That way, the bass part is as close to being "in tune" with the notes of the equal-tempered scale as is possible.

As to your question, I know of 2 ways to accurately tune the open strings to the notes of the equal-tempered scale. One is to use a strobe tuner (like the Peterson, or the older Conn models). The other is to tune EACH of the open strings (or the octave - or double octave - harmonic) to it's own, equal-tempered, tuning fork. That means having 4 (or 5) tuning forks . . .

I think that Damon Rondeau has the right idea (although I don't agree that the tuning of the open strings is "a trivial matter").

"You play in tune with the instruments you're playing with."

Yeah. That sounds just about as good as it can be!

The OPEN STRINGS are a trivial matter. You play in tune with the instruments you're playing with. Is the un-temperedness of your open string really bumming you out as you're playing? Don't play the open string.

When I get to a club, the first thing I do is put the tuner on the piano to see how far off it is. Then I tune the bass with the same error margin. I need a tuner in a club to get past the noise of glasses, trays, yappers, and the drummer.
In the symphony, if I'm early, I use the fork to keep my pitch discrimination healthy. But if the trombones are warming up, I can't even hear the fork, and out comes the tuner.

As a violinist now learning bass, when tuning in 5ths (violins are strung from the G just below middle C to D-A-E) and tuning using the bow, the sound wave "wobble" is eliminated when the fiddle is in tune. I am eating up all bass info but not using a bow - yet. I have always used an A 440 tuning fork for violin. I think there MAY be variation in the electronic tuner A due to their country of manufacturing origin, but whatever the reason, I find there to be variation. Gimme that tuning fork every time, or, if in a band situation, the instrument which can NOT be changed, e.g. an accordion or acoustic piano. When all else fails and the gig is in an impossibly noisy place, then out comes the glow-in-the-dark electronic tuner.

But if the trombones are warming up, I can't even hear the fork, and out comes the tuner.

Do you hold up your tuning fork to your ear, or do you hold it in your teeth?

Do you hold up your tuning fork to your ear, or do you hold it in your teeth?
I hold the end of the handle where the condylar process of the mandible and the zygomatic arch meet, in front of the tragus.

I hold the end of the handle where the condylar process of the mandible and the zygomatic arch meet, in front of the tragus.
Is that with your trousers off?

No. The fork needs a hard surface. Maybe I should say 'not anymore'.