I didn't know whether to post this question here or in "set up". Knowing how quiet this forum is I decided to put it here.

I am test driving a bass that has been played in a major orchestra for 6 years. It is a beautiful looking and sounding bass with a one piece flat sawn spruce top.

The owner is, to say the least, a beligerent union member. Five years ago, the then director (management) complained that the bass section (labor) needed to clean their basses. He took the opposite action and never cleaned it. There are little nibs of rosin embeded in the top finish that I, the owner and a local luthier have attempted to remove without much success.

Does anyone, hint hint Jeff or "all hail Bob", have any ideas for cleaning the top of this bass?

I appreciate any input that you have on this question.

Mark

Isopropyl Alcohol (Propan-2-ol), used sparingly...

- Wil

Any alcohol can be dangerous[unless you are talking about imbibing]. It will dissolve many varnishes. You are talking about a difficult problem that is best solved by prevention. Obviously not the case here. I would handle this in two possible ways. One, toluol[sometimes called toluene] and xylene will quickly dissolve rosin. These can usually be purchased from a good hardware store. I have never had a problem with them affecting a varnish be it oil or spirit-based. However, always test in an inconspicuous locale. The down side is that both are nasty substances[as in carcinogens] Use chemical resistant gloves and adequate ventilation. It will leave a very slight residue which is really the remnants of the dissolved rosin-it will appear a little flat. This can be buffed out with a soft t-shirt and elbow grease[not sold at the hardware store].
Another option would probably require luthier intervention. The imbedded rosin can be removed with 800 grit wet paper[carefulof high spots on the bass,ie uneven cracks] This will leave a flat[as opposed to shiny] surface that will need to be french polished. I hope this helps.

I heard (or read) a long time ago that a good way to remove rosin deposits was to use light oil, like 3-in-1, and VERY fine steel wool. It sounded pretty strange to me, but I tried it and it worked great and didn't damage the finish. Use quite a bit of oil to minimize the abrasion of the steel wool - you can clean up the oil when you're done with a soft cloth.

I think I may have read this idea in a Rufus Reid book, but I'm not sure.

BL

One more thing -
This oil/steel wool idea doesn't work on the bridge which is usually unfinished and will soak up the oil. I haven't come up with a good method for the bridge - I'd welcome any thoughts.

thanks,
BL

Bill- Denatured alcohol will work on the bridge if you can be careful of the varnish. I feel the need to comment on the use of oils. The introduction of any liquid to the surface of a viol instrument is problematic.There are many microscopic and not-so-microscopic openings on the wood. New hairline cracks, old fixed cracks, purfling-all will have some opening into which liquids can seep. Any oil or polish will do this and the openings in the wood become contaminated. This leads to all sorts of future problems. I always recommend never to use any oil or polish on your instrument. The chemicals I mentioned in my earlier post are very evaporative and they tend to not slurry up as the rosin is removed. This lessens the risk of contamination.

Thanks for the replies. I think I will have the owner there when I clean it.

Mark

CROSS-CUT
Great testimony to the intelligence of a union member who, for no reason other than to spite management, would willingly damage his own instrument.
When I resumed my professional playing, I rejoined the union just out of conscience left over from the old days. But in fact, I find it utterly useless today.

JEFF
I'll leave the name out - The well known shop you once worked for sells a cleaning liquid which works well, smells like camphor. Any comment? I've used it only a few times.

Don-of-HigDon,

I've already tries that. If I kept at it for a couple weeks it might work. Speaking of that former employeer of Jeff's - The last time I was there, I saw an employee rubbing out the same Testori for two days. It must have had a union owner also.

Mark

Jeff,
Thanks for the warning - yikes! Now you have me worried. What kinds of problems can this contamination you describe cause? I haven't seen any finish problems on my bass, but it's no prize in terms of finish anyway. I always assumed that a little residual oil in/on the finish would be good for the wood, but I guess that's from a carpenter's perspective, not a luthier's.

Thanks for your advice.

BL

Bill-
Sorry, didn't see your query till my last post was up. Contamination- even fixed cracks will usually have some small openings-more so depending on the season. Purfle will as well. Oil seeps in through capillary action and deteriorates the glue joint and also makes future gluing ineffectual. Trust me on this one. I never claim to be an expert on tone but no one glues better than I.

Originally posted by Jeff Bollbach
Don-
You can always leave that name out. That cleaner used to contain both toluol and xylene but does'nt any more. It has limited efficacy regarding heavy buildup of rosin and it contains plenty of perfumes and oils. Just so it doesn't seem that I have negative comments across the board on that establishment, I do recommend their hardcase and stroller. That's all though.


Jeff,

this is interesting, as my luthier (whose name shall also be left out) was found scoffing at the work of the same shop last time I was having my bass worked on. Hmmm.....

But after reading this thread, I'm a little confused: I just bought some of the cleaning/polishing compound from the aforementioned establishment, and now you're advising not to use it. I don't have any rosin on my bass, but it does accumulate some residual SPOOGE every now and then. How should I remove this, with the chemichals you mentioned? And what's "french polishing"?

Originally posted by Jeff Bollbach
N
The proper way in this case is to use a pad with a small amount of solvent[alcohol or turp] and use the fumes to microscopically melt the very surface layer.

Jeff,

The correct french term which you have delicately danced around here is that you use a tampon when applying a french polish.

Mark

Originally posted by Jeff Bollbach
Nice to finally respond to you-I've enjoyed your postings.


Likewise.

I'm loving my time here at TB for many reasons. In particular due to the humour and camaradarie. It's better than a daily dose of the funnies.

Especially so since Watterson quit writing "Calvin and Hobbes".

BTW I became a supporting member today-I wanted to post for a while and make sure I didn't get totally flamed before I did. So far, so good.


Flamed? Here??? You must be thinking of some other forum. :rolleyes: :D

Spooge can effectively be removed in its early stages with a clean, soft t-shirt and elbow grease. Later on you may need to use warm water in addition to the grease. Wetting the instrument is ok as long as you work quickly and dry immediately. Go at a small area vigorously and get paper towels on it right away.



Thanks for the tip. I've been afraid of applying serious elbow grease...but as long as you say it's safe, I think I can clean it up nicely. And I'm glad you recognized the word SPOOGE - I almost used the descriptive "FUM" instead, but I felt that the other was a little closer to the truth.

First a correction - The bass has a three piece flat/quarter sawn top.

I just tried xylene and it did not touch the little bumps. I am concerned about removing any finish so I am going to use some of that afore mentioned white polish and put the shine back on the spot that I used for a test.

Thanks for all of your input.

Mark

Mark- Sorry if I steered you wrong with the xylene. Sometimes what skinned the cat yesterday does not work today. Come to think about it, I usually go to the toluol first and can't remember when I last used xylene. Of course, that would have been more useful to you yesterday. Sorry for any inconvinence. As the whippersnappers say "my bad".
jeff

Yo, Jeff:
To clarify Chris' understanding in his last post - is the cleaning agent actually/potentially harmful, or simply limited in effectiveness? It seems to take the rosin flecks off of my bass quite well. And I think I'm responsible for him buying it.

Don, I'm a little confused here. Chris F. was talking about elbow grease and Mark was trying xylene. Which are we referring to?

Jeff,

I think Don is talking about Chris using the Kolstein, there I said it, cleaner and polish. I use it every once in a while to clean rosin dust off the top of my bass. I find that it works very well for the fine dust. I also use it to clean my bow.

The question as to the use of a polish on the finish is another discussion.

I will try the toluene today.

Mark

Jeff: As in
Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Jeff,
But after reading this thread, I'm a little confused: I just bought some of the cleaning/polishing compound from the aforementioned establishment, and now you're advising not to use it.

Mark-
I just went out in the shop and did as scientific an experiment as I could-here are the results. I tested the following solvents-Toluol, xylene, Turpentine, alcohol. The first part of the experiment was simple dissolution. I took two different rosins-Nyman-hart, Pops and flaked them into jars of the solvent. After five minutes I got these results: Toluol- 100% dissolution, xylene- approx. 60% dis., turp 0% dis, alcohol approx 30% dis.-this was for the nyman-hart, the Pops seemed to dissolve slightly faster.

I then applied the solvents to two basses- one, a Jaeger that I just finished revarnishing yesterday in spirit and the other, my latest bass[the one in the avatar] which was finished in oil a few months ago. Toluol had no effect on the oil and a barely perceptable effect on the spirit- the same as if I rubbed it with a dry cloth[I'm thinking this is because it is barely 24hrs. old-I have a bass coming in tomorrow that I revarnished 3 yrs ago with the same spirit varnish, I'll do the same on it tomorrow to clear up that question]. I got the same results with xylene. Turp had a barely perceptable result on the oil and no effect on the spirit. Alcohol- no effect on the oil and I didn't have to try it on the spirit-stay away from that.

Mark, there are many variations on a theme when it comes to varnish. Basically the solvent is always gonna be turp or spirit but there are many different recipes that may affect how the finished varnish reacts to a particular solvent. As someone who does this full-time and claims to be fluent in all manners of bass repair I have to have thehands, eyes, sensitivity to deal with the subtleties of how these things go. That includes the inevitable mistakes that anyone can make- I have to know how to fix them. Looking back on this thread, I realize that in my desire to hang and have fun with you guys I may have been a bit cavalier in my recommendations of techniques that may be better left to those with a shingle outside their door. I've really been enjoying TB[although my wife is kinda pissed at how much time I'm spending in front of the computer] and I would hate to steer someone into a problem. So I feel the need to state that using solvents on a finish is a "proceed at your own risk" situation. I still stand on my statement that commercial cleaners and polishes will contaminate any openings with detriment to the bass.

Don-
Doesn't this begin to approach a chat room with really long winded users?
I am not trying to be against anyone's products here, I just want people to understand that their bass is a big breathing thing and with the possible exception of a brand new bass there are tons of places that oils can get into the body proper. The aforementioned cleaner contains many ingredients [such as oils] other than its active one[which is xylene if I remember correctly]. A finished varnish has a flat surface that has its own lustre and should never need the addition of a polish. Spooge can be dealt with without the use of solvent. Micro-abrasion to the varnish will dissappear temporarily with the use of polish but IMHO the cons greatly out weigh the pros here- I have spent countless hours cleaning out oil infested cracks-completely unnecessary. This varnish imperfection is best dealt with by french polishing.[which when done properly does not ADD anything to the varnish-that is the greatest sin when it comes to a fine varnish]. Rosin, well apparently that's more of a can of worms than I originally thought. Either prevent it or you may need a trip to your favorite luthier.

.

Update #2

Today I was able to find Toluol (toluene) and it does work.
My question to Jeff; it seems to remove a surface layer of something, meaning the shiny layer. I am not removing very much color so I don't think that I am disturbing subsequent layers of finish. Am I doing more harm than good trying to take off the rosin nibs? Based on your knowledge of the bass, should I french polish the surface after I clean it? And if so what should I use? Just a couple of questions for the "expert". I hope that you don't feel that I/we are taking advantage of your expertise. Thanks for you help.
Mark

I could just not come here if I felt I was being taken advantage of[that's assuming I wasn't totally addicted]. No, really I'm having plenty of fun and my typing skills are increasing dramatically. [is there a spellcheck here?]
The loss of shine is illusory. Let's assume you had a shiny marble floor that DB'ers with muddy boots had soiled. You go to mop it and the shine appears to be gone. But it is'nt really- you are just seeing the dried diluted muddy water. You would need to mop it more than once to completely clean it. In this case its diluted rosin. Usually what I do in that situation is French polish the bass. Now that I know what bass you are talking about I can tell you something about the varnish. It is oil varnish and the toluol will not affect it at all. I can say that for sure. However there is another factor.That maker used a technique of inducing artificial antiquing that you need to consider. Basically the technique employed putting layers of inert organics like black walnut dye or just plain dirt inbetween the layers of oil. A layer of varnish is really quite thin. Normal wear and tear does wear away the varnish to varying degrees. The danger in this particular case is that excessive rubbing could cause some loss of color. Proceed with caution. BTW I continued my experiment today-that bass with the tree year old spirit varnish came in and I tried both toluol and xylene on it. With vigorous rubbing no change to the varnish was noted. There was also no loss of shine[he don't do arco].
ps-mark I will get back to you on that other matter.
Also-do you know how to french polish?

Jeff,
I've built fine furniture for twenty five years as a hobby and have taken high $ comissions for top end clients, but that's just a hobby.
Mark

Jeff (or whoever knows the answer),

When applying "elbow grease", what sort of cloth should be used, and in what direction should said "grease" be applied? With the grain? Circular motion? Connect the spooge dots? It's not a big deal, but I have a fairly new bass which is pretty shiny in some places and dull in others because of residual FUM. I wouldn't mind if the whole finish was a bit "flatter" but this half-and-half thing looks a little funny. Like I said, no big deal, but as long as you're here and offering advice, what's the best way to do this? And should the cloth be damp or dry?


Thanks,

FSPOOGETAPE

A dry soft old t-shirt would be the tool I would choose for light duty FUM. A circular motion-just because it is more ergonomic[wax-on wax-off]. Go with warm and damp for any more serious accumulations followed by dry.
I have2 questions for you Chris. First, it may seem silly but is there a way to do spellcheck on these postings? I like to mispell my words on porpoise. And.. the signature statement that many of you employ at the bottom of your posts-how it that done? Surely you don't type it in every time.

CLEF RORSCHACH,

Thanks for the tip, I'll try that today - I have 5 hours of free time to practice, and I take breaks on TB, so I'll report back soon. Man, I love Tuesdays!

There used to be a spellchecker built in, but it crashed a lot and I haven't seen it since the last upgrade. I usually just keep an old fashioned dictionary within arms reach, but then I like to do things the old fashioned way....plus, you can learn a lotta cool new words that way.

About the signature, go to the red "My Talkbass" button at the top of the forum frame, and then hit "Edit Profile". Once you get in there, you can tell us all about yourself (for anyone who cares to check) and program your signature anyway you wish, including links to soundclips if you want. If you need more help than that, the man to talk to is Xavier G - he's a Slab Off Topic moderator, and when it comes to anything having to do with computers, he is absolutely THE MAN. Hell of a nice guy, too....just don't troll in his backyard, or he'll give you the OH, CANADA smackdown. :eek:

Good luck. I found the whole profile thing confusing for a while when I first joined.

(sorry if the Fuquazation wasn't too hot, but I was afraid that you wouldn't feel like you belonged until somebody f****d with your name )

Clef is honored.