I have realized that I have been putting off learning theory for quite some time (about four years.....) and I have finally come to my senses and realized that I need theory to achieve what I want to do.

I get basic stuff but one thing that really confuses the hell out of me is knowing what modes to use on what chords (I suppose I dont really know much about chords either).

It seems like there is no cookie cutter solution to this and I cannot get by purely on technique (as I have been doing thus far).

Can anyone try to help me out or point me in the direction of some literature worth checking out?

Thanks,
Sam

No easy solution is right.

Analyze the 4 basic diatonic chords and figure out which modes fit which chords.



Work through this for starters. Four basic qualities:

M7 Major Seven

Dominant 7 or just 7 ie C7

m7 Minor 7

m7b5 aka half diminished



M7 has a major 1,3,5, and 7. Which two of your modes have those qualities?

Dominant 7 has one alteration- b7. Which one mode fits?

m7 has flatted 3 and 7. Which 3 modes fit?

One left. Flatted 3,5,and 7. Favorite of Swedish death metal:D



Enjoy your homework, and if you post here, I'm sure someone will either come by to fix your mistakes, or give you grossly misleading information.

Again.
:D


Oh yeah. Once you figure out what modes match what chords, try putting the chords in a synth or sequencer, and listen to the differences between the ones with multiple options. Develop a flavor for how a mode feels and "tastes."

Feel free to PM questions.

ok.... hmmm, that actually makes a bit of sense to me. thanks.

i would ask, but i honestly cant think of any questions......

thank you again, im sure I'll find something I need help with.

I would advise you get a tutor that can teach you the basics of diatonic theory starting with the major scale and how it is used to analyse all other scales then teach you how the modes are relative to each degree of the major scale. For example that Dorian starts on the second degree of the major scale, Phrygian the third, Lydian the 4th, Mixolydian the 5th, Aeolian the 6th, and Locrian the 7th. From there they should teach you about the relative triads; I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viio, then the relative 7th chords and so on. A good tutor will also make sure that you are learning these things so that you can understand how each of these modes, triads and 7th chords are formed by the scales rather than just teaching them to you as separate entities out in space. Good luck.

All the basic info about music theory is available for free online. Mutediety mentions the importance of learning the modes by scale degree relation to the major scale. In actuality, you won't have a firm grasp on the modes til you know them several different ways.

I hinted at the importance of knowing their alterations to the major scale. Can you name all 7 modes by scale degree alteration, and spell them in all 12 keys? Can you name the chords, with extension, which match up with the 7 modes? Can you spell those chords in all 12? Lots of work to be done here!

A great starting point for hearing modes in real life is the modal period of Miles Davis, specifically the masterpiece, Kind of Blue,.

The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine will answer all your questions and more.

All the basic info about music theory is available for free online. Mutediety mentions the importance of learning the modes by scale degree relation to the major scale. In actuality, you won't have a firm grasp on the modes til you know them several different ways.

I hinted at the importance of knowing their alterations to the major scale. Can you name all 7 modes by scale degree alteration, and spell them in all 12 keys? Can you name the chords, with extension, which match up with the 7 modes? Can you spell those chords in all 12? Lots of work to be done here!

A great starting point for hearing modes in real life is the modal period of Miles Davis, specifically the masterpiece, Kind of Blue,.

If you are talking about being able to spell out modes in terms of thier degrees - {1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7} = dorian, for example, then that is all part of what I am talking about. Key is transposable though and I would say it is more important to understand the relative intervalic permutations of diatonal modes rather than remember every single relative note in every single key. What happens when you want to move away from diatonal modes? There are quite a few scales out there that aren't diatonic and being able to understand relativism is the key to understanding how those "exotic" scales work.

Not only are there alot of scales out there that aren't diatonic modes, there's also two other scales with 7 additional modes each- melodic and harmonic minor. The modes of melodic minor (asc) are especially important to jazz improvisation. For example, lydian dominant, altered dominant, locrian #2, etc, which are respectively the right scale choices in many situations for 7, alt, and half diminished. These are three of the most used chords in jazz, and if you haven't run at least two of the complete mode systems, you're missing out on a world of fun sounds to play around with.

For everything you learn, it's extremely important to be able to grab any note from the scale anywhere on the neck in a heartbeat. Being able to name those notes is one of the first steps to being able to play, say the b13 of a dominant chord on the downbeat. Which, btw, is way hip.

Oh yeah regarding key being tranposable, yeah it sure is, but spelling Dom7+5 in Cb will take more than a little head scratching for alot of people until they've done ALOT of homework. Without that knowledge, by the time you get done scratching your head trying to figure out which starting note to play, you might just be three measures (or staves) behind!

I feel like I'm in the same boat as the OP but maybe have a bit better grasp on theory foundations.

Modes continue to confound me as well, however. Here's a question that, if answered affirmatively, will help me along the way:

Basically, a mode is a scale played over a particular chord that begins on a note within that chord other than the root?

For example, the Dorian mode played over a C major chord would begin on D and would be D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D?

dvh-

close.

The mode corresponds with the tertian chord built off of the same root.

So, in relation to C major, Dorian starts on D, (d-e-f-g-a-b-c-d,) and the relating chord is dmin7 (d-f-a-c.) The remaining scale degrees (e-g-b) are called extensions, and are used to construct the chords dmin9, dmin11, and dmin13.

Good luck!

excellent

just one definition needed: tertian?

I feel like I'm in the same boat as the OP but maybe have a bit better grasp on theory foundations.

Modes continue to confound me as well, however. Here's a question that, if answered affirmatively, will help me along the way:

Basically, a mode is a scale played over a particular chord that begins on a note within that chord other than the root?

For example, the Dorian mode played over a C major chord would begin on D and would be D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D?

You don't want to think a Dorian mode over a C major scale. There is a use for, but a technique use and would just confuse things to go into it now. So for now no you don't want to think D Dorian over C Major.

First understand a C Major scale C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C.

Now a harmonized C Major scale CMa7, Dmi7, Emi7, FMa7, G7, Bmi7b5.

Also the notes of each of those chords. C-E-G-B, D-F-A-C, E-G-B-D, F-A-C-E, G-B-D-F, A-C-E-G, B-D-F-A.

Modes of C Major C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian

Okay now learn them as groups of info like in key of C major....

C 1st degree of major scale, CMaj7 chord, spelled C-E-G-B, C Ionian mode.
D 2nd degree of major scale, Dmi7 chord, spelled D-F-A-C, D Dorian mode.

and so on.

That is your basic use of modes. You want to understand the relationshp between those things so when you are playing you can use them something like this.

Song in key of C major, chord on the chart is a Dmi7, second degree of C major scale so Dorian mode, chord tones are D-F-A-C, I can use Dorian mode as scale for extra notes. That is the begin stage.

As you get to where you are doing that as fast as you see the chord, then you start adding more info like color tone/chord extensions are 9, 11, and 13 and they are E, G, B. Other possible scales yada, yada, yada.

Sounds like a lot of infomation and it is at first, but the more you use it and practice using it your brain becomes like a music computer. That basic info is there like all the code behind the scene in a computer program you use. You look at a chord quicky think or chord tones, default scale, and start playing. If you come to that chord again on the chart you start adding more its functioning as a II chord and it going to a V chord, okay I like to do this in that situation. You come to the chord again repetitive song. Okay I want more outside sound I will use my yada-yada licks.

It is a process you build up from practice and listening, jamming and listening, and gigging and listening. It doesn't happen over night it takes time and work. In the process you develop your ear and eventually can think of a lick or a sound you want and know instantly what to play to get it. And this applies to bass lines as well as soloing.

I think we have all the bases (huhuh) covered now. Now that Docbop posted his doctoral dissertation, anybody should be able to figure out the mode system from this thread. :D

One additional pointer for anyone wanting to better understand modes-
This stuff makes ALOT more sense on piano. As they say, on piano it's all there in black and white.

Which brings up a very important point. Any serious student of music should be able to play the basics on piano. The keyboard allows you visualize the theory in a very clear manner, helps you to write music more efficiently, and plus, girls love to sit next to you on the piano bench!

Thanks for the help guys.

Chicago: exactly why I bought a cheapo keyboard. Great thing is, the available ryhthm tracks can be used as a metronome!

I think this is where things tend to confuse most learners. The thing that needs to be addressed is how those modes manifest. It is also quite difficult to explain these things without demonstrating them one on one as well I think, but the core idea of modality is this;

If you start with a scale, then each note of that scale has an interval between it and the next note in the scale. In the Major scale the intervals are; Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone. When you start from the second degree of that scale you modulate the first interval to the last position. Now you get the intervals Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, which is our relative Dorian. When we compare the intervals to the tonic in relation to the Major scale we can see that there are some differences. For example the third note is one semitone lower than where it would be if you were playing the Major scale and the same is true for the 7th note of the scale. Hence we say that we have the degrees {1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7}. We can go through and do this for all remaining tones based of the original scale. From there, as DocBop and chicagodoubler pointed out, we build our tertian triads and extended chords and so on. By the way tertian means built on thirds.

Now if we apply this to any given scale and its relative intervals we can find all the modal permutations. For example if we take a more "exotic" scale let's say Byzantine, AKA Double Harmonic with the degrees {1,b2,3,4,5,b6,7} we can see the intervals are;
Semitone, Tone-and-a-half , Semitone, Tone, Semitone, Tone-and-half, Semitone
our second mode will be;
Tone-and-a-half, Semitone, Tone, Semitone, Tone-and-a-half, Semitone, Semitone.
And so on for each remaining degree. The main reason I use this example is to illustrate that the concept of modulation can be applied to any given scale.

Hope this helps.

Everybody has good points.

Why not work on the MUSIC that uses this stuff?

Flea uses Dorian on lots of minor RHCP jams.

Alot of disco uses Mixolydian.

So What by Miles uses Dorian in d and eb exclusively.

Slayer likes Locrian.

Spanish music uses alot of Phrygian.


Scales and sounds are like ice cream. Learn the flavor, and order what you really want when you step up to the counter.

Bad metaphor, but hopefully someone will like it.

Everybody has good points.

Why not work on the MUSIC that uses this stuff?

Flea uses Dorian on lots of minor RHCP jams.

Alot of disco uses Mixolydian.

So What by Miles uses Dorian in d and eb exclusively.

Slayer likes Locrian.

Spanish music uses alot of Phrygian.


Scales and sounds are like ice cream. Learn the flavor, and order what you really want when you step up to the counter.

Bad metaphor, but hopefully someone will like it.

yeah i agree with this.

just one thing about modes (i'm new to modes but think i'm starting to understand them) do you start the mode on the same root as the chord/scale, like, if a song is in A minor, i could use the A Ionian mode over that etc.

yeah i agree with this.

just one thing about modes (i'm new to modes but think i'm starting to understand them) do you start the mode on the same root as the chord/scale, like, if a song is in A minor, i could use the A Ionian mode over that etc.

Mode are major and minor just like keys are. If a song in key of A minor what is the relative major key of A minor??? Right, C major so you would use modes of C major. So on A minor you be using A Aeolian mode from the C Major modes.

That is the starting point and need to understand the inside plain vanilla use of modes first. Later then you have modal tunes, subsituting modes to get different colors, and so on. But first get a handle on the basics.

For a minor key use the modes of the relative major key. Sometimes you will hear the term the Parent scale use to mean same thing. One more for song in key of G minor you use its relative major key Bb and its modes.

[QUOTE=DocBop;4615266]Mode are major and minor just like keys are. If a song in key of A minor what is the relative major key of A minor??? Right, C major so you would use modes of C major. So on A minor you be using A Aeolian mode from the C Major modes.

QUOTE]

So, if you consider the key A minor, you could play modes of C major.

BUT, if you consider the chord A minor, you could play modes of A minor?

Mode are major and minor just like keys are. If a song in key of A minor what is the relative major key of A minor??? Right, C major so you would use modes of C major. So on A minor you be using A Aeolian mode from the C Major modes.
Locrian isn't minor or major though. I personally don't even look at Dorian, for example, as having to be necessarily a mode of the major or minor scale. I would say that it can be its own parent scale. It is enharmonic to the 2nd mode of the Ionian Major scale too, but it is also enharmonic to the 3rd mode of Locrian, and so on. Also, modes go well beyond the diatonic structure. Any scale has modal permutations, with the exception of maybe the wholetone scale which is non-transpositional.

Locrian isn't minor or major though. I personally don't even look at Dorian, for example, as having to be necessarily a mode of the major or minor scale. I would say that it can be its own parent scale. It is enharmonic to the 2nd mode of the Ionian Major scale too, but it is also enharmonic to the 3rd mode of Locrian, and so on. Also, modes go well beyond the diatonic structure. Any scale has modal permutations, with the exception of maybe the wholetone scale which is non-transpositional.

Locrian is minor since it has a b3 and b7 the identity notes for minor. That said most will use Locrian as an altered dominant sound (no 3rd but altered 9's and 5's.) It is used on half-diminished chords too another minor sound. Lots of way to look at and use modes.

Yes you can make modes out of any scale and some of the modes of melodic and harmonic minor get used quite a bit. Whole tone because of the symmetry isn't looked at as mode, diminished is looked at as whole-half, and half-whole so you could call that a mode I guess.

You can look at this stuff anyway that is useful to you. I use mode fingerings as inversion of scales. I think it another good use, others think I'm nuts. Once someone's playing evolves far enough chromatic is the only scale they use because they know the notes and sounds they want to pull out of it. I was trying to keep things simple for people new to modes. They need to walk before they can run.

[QUOTE=DocBop;4615266]Mode are major and minor just like keys are. If a song in key of A minor what is the relative major key of A minor??? Right, C major so you would use modes of C major. So on A minor you be using A Aeolian mode from the C Major modes[QUOTE]

but what i dont get about this is, why say your using the A Aeolian mode over a minor, you might aswell just say your using the A minor scale, they are both the same.

you can also use more than one mode right? so say i'm in A minor, the relative major is C major, so i can choose which modes From the C major Scale, C ionian mode works with A minor right? its basicly just the 3rd of the A minor scale

I disagree that Locrian is minor. By definition minor must have a P5 as well as a b3, the 7th is not really relevant when you conisder that both melodic and harmonic minors have a leading tone.

I could however, see that you could omit the 5th to imply that for example in the "key" of C Major, that the B is a minor in a chordal sense, however I would argue that this implys a modal alteration. In this case you are saying that, by omission, the tonic implies the P5. This would therefore imply a scale, if you consider all the other degrees as being true to Locrian, that was enharmonic to Phrygian.

Otherwise I would say that Locrian is diminished since the tertian triad is diminished and the 7th chord attached is m7(b5) which is half-diminished.

but what i dont get about this is, why say your using the A Aeolian mode over a minor, you might aswell just say your using the A minor scale, they are both the same.

you can also use more than one mode right? so say i'm in A minor, the relative major is C major, so i can choose which modes From the C major Scale, C ionian mode works with A minor right? its basicly just the 3rd of the A minor scale

A aeolian and A minor are enharmonic. Depending on how you use the nomenclature there are possible differences you can imply. Though, for all intents and purposes they are basically the same thing.

Any relative mode will work with any of its counterparts. This mostly comes back to player's perspective rather than being structural to the music itself, I would say. You will still be playing to the relative tonality of the overall piece, for example if the "key" is C Major and you are playing with E Phrygian in mind the piece will still be in C Major despite how you are seeing it in your mind, since C will be the ultimate centre of tonality. The exeption is where you are playing figured bass and providing the inversional voicings for chords.

A aeolian and A minor are enharmonic. Depending on how you use the nomenclature there are possible differences you can imply. Though, for all intents and purposes they are basically the same thing.

Any relative mode will work with any of its counterparts. This mostly comes back to player's perspective rather than being structural to the music itself, I would say. You will still be playing to the relative tonality of the overall piece, for example if the "key" is C Major and you are playing with E Phrygian in mind the piece will still be in C Major despite how you are seeing it in your mind, since C will be the ultimate centre of tonality. The exeption is where you are playing figured bass and providing the inversional voicings for chords.

yeah i understand that, so basicly is that how you use modes? if your in minor, you look for the relative major and use the modes in the major which fit to what your playing?

also, i find that the major scale sometimes works over minor, like i'm playing in A minor, but the A major scale works over A minor, what you call that? am i using the Aeolian mode there? becouse i'm not going to the relative major

also, i find that the major scale works over minor, like i'm playing in A minor, but the A major scale works over A minor, what you call that? am i using the Aeolian mode there? becouse i'm not going to the relative major

I'd say you need to clean your ears. :D I would call that Melodic Minor with one very wrong note. Melodic Minor is a major scale with a b3rd. Could take that one step further Melodic Minor is Dorian with one note changed. The key is doing what your doing and listening, now start playing this stuff and find the note(s) that give things their sound or color. So Major scale and Melodic Minor hear the major 3rd in one and the b3rd in the other. Melodic Minor and Dorian a minor scale with a major 6th and 7th or a minor scale with just a major 6th.

Remember theory is not rules it is a way to remember things so you have a name for a sound. That way later when you want that sound you know what it is and can use it again.

Oh no I can feel the theory police coming my way. :help: Yes, in traditional theory, theory is rules. That's why I'm glad I studied mainly in Jazz schools.

I disagree that Locrian is minor. By definition minor must have a P5 as well as a b3, the 7th is not really relevant when you conisder that both melodic and harmonic minors have a leading tone.


My instinct would be to agree with you, mutedeity, but my research suggests that Doc is correct. Locrian is considered to be a minor scale type.

Remember theory is not rules it is a way to remember things so you have a name for a sound. That way later when you want that sound you know what it is and can use it again.

Oh no I can feel the theory police coming my way. :help: Yes, in traditional theory, theory is rules. That's why I'm glad I studied mainly in Jazz schools.

I agree, but if we are referencing a particular thing as being part of a paradigm, for example what defines something as major or minor, then we have to really go by the established "rules" of the paradigm. You can say of any given scale that it is only one note away from another scale, but one different note changes the character of the whole scalar structure and the relationship between that note and every other tone in the scale. Whether you think melodic minor sounds like a major with a bad note is part of your personal paradigm too. The fact is that that one note forms what we commonly identify as a minor triad attached to the tonic {1, b3, 5}. Just as it is my personal paradigm that it is illogical to say that a scale with a diminished triad {1, b3, b5} and what is called a half diminished 7th chord, or m7(b5) can be minor without implying a modal alteration. Modal alterations are fine by the way and I am not saying that this means that it can't be considered a minor scale, but this definitly, in my mind implies a change of function to the b5th. Another thing that comes to mind though is that when we notate the chords of the diatonic modes in roman numerals we have a little circle with the 7th chord, denoting that it is in fact diminished. I am happy to read any reference material anyone has to say otherwise. I don't know maybe it's me who is offending the theory police.

so can you also use modes as individual scales aswell? i just came up with a really nice song useing the lydian mode, is it 'correct' to use modes like that?

so can you also use modes as individual scales aswell? i just came up with a really nice song useing the lydian mode, is it 'correct' to use modes like that?

Yes. Tonic modes other than Ionian and Aeolian are very common, especially in modern music.

so can you also use modes as individual scales aswell? i just came up with a really nice song useing the lydian mode, is it 'correct' to use modes like that?

Lydian (the true major scale per George Russell) is used in TV and film all the time the #4 give a nice pull to melodies. The guys I used to know who write a lot of TV and film used 12-tone, tone rows a lot for incidental music.

ok, i got the mark levine jazz book. it seems to be pretty good, but i still dont really understand anything in it.

Im trying to play all of the stuff on piano (just because its much easier to play chords). should i be playing it on bass? and how? (again with the chords).

well, i guess its time to start taking lessons again.

nice, i really like the lydian mode when playing it by itself, but still not sure what it works with yet.

so about modes again, am i right in saying, you would never play the same root note when playing modes over chords or scales, like you wouldnt play A phrygian Over an A minor, you would play E Phrygian over A minor right?

nice, i really like the lydian mode when playing it by itself, but still not sure what it works with yet.

so about modes again, am i right in saying, you would never play the same root note when playing modes over chords or scales, like you wouldnt play A phrygian Over an A minor, you would play E Phrygian over A minor right?

Never say never.

"E" Phrygian would provide the exact notes found in A natural minor. Every note in the scale would be diatonic to the key of A minor.

However, "A" phrygian could also be a tonic mode (the I chord, suggesting the song is in a modal key), or it could be superimposed over any A minor chord. "Borrowing" modes in this way is called Modal Interchange.

Lots of theory talk...all that knowledege is definately worht having inyour head, but(warning: blatant generalization coming)

The pragamtic question is : what does the BASSLINE do with these modes?

The bass line should functionally support the chord of the moment. In practical terms that means the ROOT(most often), and then the 3,5,7 after that, which tones you emphasize depend largely on the styles involved.

The great Carol Kaye has taught that too much emphasis on scales and modes can be detrimental to a solid bass line (paraphrasing) and it is best to think in terms of Chord tones and passing notes between them.

I'm not suggesting you ignore the modal theories, but when it comes down to it the bassline is *generally* about getting from one root to the next in the proper musical style, while outlining the chord -or a least avoiding clashing with it.

Just my 2 cents....

Lots of theory talk...all that knowledege is definately worht having inyour head, but(warning: blatant generalization coming)

The pragamtic question is : what does the BASSLINE do with these modes?

The bass line should functionally support the chord of the moment. In practical terms that means the ROOT(most often), and then the 3,5,7 after that, which tones you emphasize depend largely on the styles involved.

The great Carol Kaye has taught that too much emphasis on scales and modes can be detrimental to a solid bass line (paraphrasing) and it is best to think in terms of Chord tones and passing notes between them.

I'm not suggesting you ignore the modal theories, but when it comes down to it the bassline is *generally* about getting from one root to the next in the proper musical style, while outlining the chord -or a least avoiding clashing with it.

Just my 2 cents....

+1 mambo4

In actual practice, I think that I approach it from both angles.

In the process of connecting roots, we need to be most concerned with the quality of the chord we're playing, and the approach to the next chord. We sort of connect the dots in whatever way seems musically appropriate at the time, without regard to the scale(s) we're creating in the process. We'd have to transcribe it the next day to identify the various patterns we've used (or invented).

On the other hand, our knowledge of scales, modes, patterns and experience in using them lends a hand in improvising bass lines, too. We know which scale forms are the most diatonic and which create more tension. Some well-travelled musical paths are often chosen as a result of this fact. Those paths that we tend to favor become part of our signature, our style.

Never say never.

"E" Phrygian would provide the exact notes found in A natural minor. Every note in the scale would be diatonic to the key of A minor.

However, "A" phrygian could also be a tonic mode (the I chord, suggesting the song is in a modal key), or it could be superimposed over any A minor chord. "Borrowing" modes in this way is called Modal Interchange.

so am i thinking in the right way, i think i get the modal interchange thing, but at the minute when i'm jamming or playing along with songs on the t.v or whatever, if i'm playing in A minor, if i take a solo or something, i tend to use E phrygian, or C ionian etc

so am i thinking in the right way, i think i get the modal interchange thing, but at the minute when i'm jamming or playing along with songs on the t.v or whatever, if i'm playing in A minor, if i take a solo or something, i tend to use E phrygian, or C ionian etc

Yes, if the song is in A natural minor, both of those modal choices
belong to the same key center, and contain the same notes.

Hint: Connect the modes and you can connect the whole neck.

Yes, if the song is in A natural minor, both of those modal choices
belong to the same key center, and contain the same notes.

Hint: Connect the modes and you can connect the whole neck.

yeah i understand that there all contain the same notes, so is there any model choices when playing in A that dont belong to the same key centre.

yeah i understand that there all contain the same notes, so is there any model choices when playing in A that dont belong to the same key centre.

Could you rephrase your question? I'm not certain that I understand what you're asking.
thanks

yeah i understand that there all contain the same notes, so is there any model choices when playing in A that dont belong to the same key centre.

I Think I know what you are asking. hopefully I can answer.

Lets say you are playing in A Major, and you want to solo over that chord, You can probably get away the notes that make up A Lydian Mode. Still major sound quality but with a sharp 4th.

A Ionian is A,B,C#,D,E,F#,G#
A Lydian is A, B,C#, D#,E, F#, G#, A - (witch is actually in the Key of E major.

OK

Mutediety and others have talked about key signature, and the locrian debate, etc...

The quality of the 3rd establishes the key center.

Let's say we're playing a modal jam.

Aeolian, Dorian, Phrygian, Locrian all have b3. If the tonic is A, the key signature will have no sharps or flats- relative major, C. (A minor, of course.)

Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian M3, will have the key of their root.

The remaining accidentals will be dealt with accordingly.

If you are playing F lydian, the key will NEVER be C major, even though it might be more convenient to use C. The signature will have one flat, which of course will have to be treated with an accidental every time the b natural comes up.

Regarding using lydian in the place of a major scale- YES YES YES! Mature improvisers use this sound all the time. Also try the third mode of melodic minor- lydian #5. A PG-13 sound, but gee it sure raises eyebrows when you use it right. The rated R version, which Matthew Garrison loves, is the "gap scale" aka augmented. Check it out- c d# e g ab b. Scares the dogs down the street. Those three options give you a world of fun for M7 sounds, and of course, when you play the major scale for an idea, it will sound refreshingly inside...

The whole point of learning these other scales is to give yourself options. As a beautiful woman told me years ago, "Jazz is about freedom, baby." After you have assimilated these sounds and done years of gigging and transcription, eventually the concept just melts away, and you can play whatever you hear or feel. To get to that point requires alot of hard work, but the end result is one of the most amazing feelings in the world.

Okay, I am starting to understand how modes relate to chords and stuff like that.

But I have to admit..... Jazz confuses the hell out of me. Whats this key change every bar non-sense?!??!

Okay, I am starting to understand how modes relate to chords and stuff like that.

But I have to admit..... Jazz confuses the hell out of me. Whats this key change every bar non-sense?!??!

+1 on that. Just when I think I'm beginning to understand another curve gets thrown. I think (hope?) it's like two steps forward one step back but it sure is a slow learning process for me.

Key change every bar: this can be said because every mode can be viewed as a part of different keys depending on how one "sees" it? That is, since the same notes can be part of many different modes the context (and hence, key) is determined by the player's mind?

Am I getting this right?

Key change every bar: this can be said because every mode can be viewed as a part of different keys depending on how one "sees" it? That is, since the same notes can be part of many different modes the context (and hence, key) is determined by the player's mind?

Am I getting this right?

It's just the way many songs were written, Standards tend to have great melodies and multiple key changes. If you study the histroy of Jazz improv and Bebop movement I guess the second big milestone in Jazz improv. They were tired of the laid back tunes and solo and also want challenge. They kicked up the tempo add hipper chord changes. Jams were big then and the hot players started coming up with killer tunes that took really hot player to handle.

Just like any style of music you start with simple tunes and as you build your skills you move to tougher tunes. Common sequence is start Blues, Modal tunes, then work on key center approach, then chord/scale approach. To get all that internalized so you don't have to consciously think of it, you hear what you want to do and do it. Sounds simple, but a long process.

This is why you need to learn theory and not just chords and common scale choices. You need to learn to analyze songs to see where key centers are so you have a choice of chord/scale approach or key centers. Sometimes you need key centers to choose more correct scales/modes. Like most on the tune All the Things You Are see that first Fmi7 ,Bbmi7, Eb7, AbMa7, DbMa7, G7, CMa7, CMa7.

Many look quickly and use default scale choices Mi7=Dorian, Ma7=Lydian, 7th=Lydian b7. That works and can come up with a good solo using the defaults. But analyze it the Fmi is VI chord and the using the b6 of Aeolian is "correct" scale. It is going to the II chord Bbmi7 and Dorian is right mode. Going from the Aeolian to Dorian sound sounds cool with changing minor sounds. Now me I like chromatic movement I would use the tritone sub for the Eb7 and make that a A7. So I get Bbmi7-A7-AbMa7. The AbMa7 is a I chord so I would stick with Lydian default because it take the Avoid note 4 and sharps it. The next chord is DbMa7 that is a real IV chord so Lydian is right mode. Next chord is G7 are real functioning V chord so lots of choices. To me its a pretty song so don't want to go too outside unless doing many choruses so I use my tritone sub again. Instead of G7 I will use Db7 and Lydin b7 scale. This time a cool sound of a chord changing identity so now DbMa7, Db7, CMa7. I lay for maj7 changing to mi7 which become the ma7 of CMa7. A nice juicy note.

So that give you an idea of mixing chord/scale or key center view and where I would throw a tritone sub in for some color.

Start simple with a tune like Autumn Leaves. Some II-V's to practice if you like. From key centers it is in only two keys Bb major and G minor. The challenge is the key centers are a major and its relative minor so all the notes are the same, but you need to make it sound like two keys using the same notes. Get copy of Cannonball Adderley's version of Autumn Leaves it is a classic to study.

Not all jazz "changes keys every bar." Freedom jazz dance has one chord. Several tunes like So What, Little Sunflower, etc, only have a couple chords, and huge space between them.

We're pouring out all this info, but I should repeat my mantras.

Get a teacher.

Transcribe.

There are no shortcuts.