Do any of you ever play any arco? If so, what tunes do you play?

In generally arco in grass is highly frowned upon around here. Of course, a lot of that may have to do with my playing.:hmm:

There's a guy up around here who takes solos with the bow in a bluegrass band. He brings the house down each time. People love it.

I'm working on it :rolleyes:

Andy Moritz with Cadillac Sky does it. It sounds great. I did it in a couple of songs I recorded.....In The Sweet By and By and one that I wrote. Listen to Jerry Douglas' Hop, Skip, and Wobble album......awesome arco bass.

Years ago, while recording a completely live CD, I played a simple bowing intro to a song in the key of D. Basically just a droning D note. I know it don't happen much, but I like it when I hear it.

I've always loved hearing cellos mixed in with acoustic guitars. Nanci Griffith music comes to mind, so I guess that would have been my initiation or inspiration.

Another song comes to mind, "Erase the Miles" by IIIrd Tyme Out. For those unfamiliar with them, they are a contemporary bluegrass band.

How's that for chiming in? Not as good as George and John Shuffler chiming the octave G on some of that earlier Stanley Brothers stuff. :D

I found this on my computer. It was just a practice thing so don't judge it as a "recording" recording. Go to myspace page and click on "George Washington's Tune". It's just me working out a fiddle tune.

Here is the link:
http://www.myspace.com/jasonsypher

That's really cool, Jason. I've been thinking about my little-used bow recently and I've been thinking about fiddle tunes as a vehicle to warm it up some over this winter. I think you play fiddle, too, don't you? What's the influence of your fiddle-playing on choosing fiddle tunes for the bass? Any at all? Significant? Just curious...

I know that Dennis Crouch (formerly with the Nashville Bluegrass Band) owns a bow and isn't afraid to use it - Byron House has also used a bow in my studio, and I've seen Mark Schatz play with one...

Thanks Damon. I probably play about 30 tunes or so now on the bass with the bow. Some just work better than others. I like to work them so I can get some open strings happening within the bowing. Some don't lay well at all but they're just in my blood and I have to play them. It's not so hard to play the notes as much as get the drive into them. I have been talking to Mark about playing some duets since he is really getting into the bow more and more as well. I think it's a tough thing to do but if the tunes are really deep in your soul then just go for it.

There is an amazingly beautiful song (at least to me) on the Emmylou Harris and the Nash Ramblers "Live at the Ryman" album called "If I Could Be There" wherein Roy Huskey Jr. comes in about 1/2 of the way into the song bowing his bass and then there's a slow, resonant, wonderful thump. I'm pretty darn sure he is slowly slappin' the body of his bass for the thump while he's bowing but maybe it's a kick drum or combination of both ..... I wasn't there :crying: . The work by Roy on this song is so minimalist and understated as far as bass playing goes but it packs a real visceral and emotional punch. Wow .... do I wish I had been there that night at The Ryman .... it's a great album with a whole lotta excellent Roybasswork.

It's not so hard to play the notes as much as get the drive into them.

In the tiny amount of messing around I've done with fiddle tunes and the bow, my biggest problem is getting that fiddle-playing kind of bite on the string. Mushy attack, bye bye drive...

I can't even come close to playing a fast tune cleanly. It just all runs together. It seems like my biggest problem is playing across the strings. On occasion I can get a pleasing sound on a few slower tunes like Maiden's Prayer or Ella's Grave but for now forget the fast stuff.

Well take the tune I posted, for instance. Looking back I remember that I was taking tunes that I play and recording them slower than normal to try to just focus on the "shuffle" in the bow. To start out the day you could just practice the shuffle of the bow, with a metronome, on any string or note that you like. Keep the bow really light and your wrist very relaxed. Then when you get comfortable, pick a tune and just work a small phrase of the tune. Try it in different places on the bass and just be happy with what you get, don't be too judgmental. Look for that part of the bow that feels nice and springy. If you keep at it, you'll start to get parts of tunes, and then whole tunes together. Like any kind of music you will start to see patterns in one tune that open up new tunes. Then it just sort of goes from there. Later you'll find that it can be harder to play them slow than fast.

Pretty impressive Georgia bow, Jason! Inspiring.

Thanks for giving it a listen Reuben. I went on today and realized that it's only like 20 seconds long! I was cutting it down to try to just attach it to talkbass but it was too big. I think I'll re-edit it and put a little more on there. It's a little fiddlus-interruptus the way it is now.

Oh cool. I thought it was just my browser barfing. Put up more!

Put up more!

YES!

Ben Kaufmann in Yonder Mountain String Band used the bow for an extended solo when I saw them last -- they're not so much "bluegrass" but he used it well. Don't know how much it added though, seems to be more of an eye-catcher than anything else.

Don't know how much it added though, seems to be more of an eye-catcher than anything else.

That's the thing I want to avoid at all costs. I could pull out the bow and saw a little bit for the novelty effect, but I want to make music, not just put on a show.

There is a guy who plays with a bluegrass band in the Memphis area. He has a jazz background and really knows his way around the neck. Sometimes he is too busy for the music but there is no doubt he knows his stuff. He pulls out a bow on occasion and the crowd enjoys it. However, it drives some of the purist pickers nuts.

I am seeking the Holy Grail--a balance of taste and adeptness.

I agree Steve. Its not what you know, its how you use what you know.

In my case, I don't know much anyhow :help:

Just got back from the Chilliwack Bluegrass Festival.

Eric Thorin was playing with Ben Winship on mandolin/bouzouki and Brian Wicklund on fiddle in a fantastic new trio called "Brother Mule". http://www.brothermule.com/

Eric bowed, plucked and slapped his borrowed Kay in a tour de force demonstration of what DB can do in a bluegrass context.

Eric's playing was almost as technically brilliant as Edgar Meyer's but with a better feel for the form.

Jesus they were good! :)

Many of the bass players from the other bands were in the audience for Brother Mule's sets.

If you get a chance to see them I highly recommend them.

Ok, I found the rest of it and it's up on my myspace page. I found a couple more on my computer in the process and I'll try to get them up as well. Here's the link: click on Washington's March in the music player.

http://www.myspace.com/jasonsypher

That's the thing I want to avoid at all costs. I could pull out the bow and saw a little bit for the novelty effect, but I want to make music, not just put on a show.
... He pulls out a bow on occasion and the crowd enjoys it. However, it drives some of the purist pickers nuts.


With no disrespect intended, what's wrong with 'putting on a show'? The classic days of bluegrass were ALL about the show - entertaining the folks. It's only been within the last 30 or 40 years that showmanship has become anathema to some musicians (Ricky Skaggs refers to 'purist pickers' as 'grassholes'.)

No disrespect taken. I didn't say putting on a show was bad. What I said was "I want to make music, not just put on a show."

Interplay between group members (musical or verbal) is fine. Novelty tunes in the right time and place can be very entertaining. A little comedy or personal observations on song's meaning is a great way to connect with an audience.

I just want to be sure if I say something musical that I am speaking the correct language.

I just want to be sure if I say something musical that I am speaking the correct language.
Gotcha - I've been watching documentaries on Louis Prima and Spike Jones this week, so I've been thinking about the way that we seem to have lost the entertainment part of performing.

I almost always have my bow with me since there is always a place for the bow in bluegrass. Reciently I have been playing bow along with pizz on Traveling Solders Dixie Chicks with my band.
I think the bow adds a lot to bluegrass music

I found this on my computer. It was just a practice thing so don't judge it as a "recording" recording. Go to myspace page and click on "George Washington's Tune". It's just me working out a fiddle tune.

Here is the link:
http://www.myspace.com/jasonsypher

I love it!
I do *some* bowing in bluegrass but mainly just on slow tunes and intros/outros. You are doing something very different. The "bounce" you get in that melody is really infectious. You got the fiddle lick down but you are laying down the groove at the same time. Sh*t. All fiddle players (and guitar players, etc) should learn to play the bass. If they all had that kind of feel it would be so much easier to listen to them! :bassist:

The support has got me back on the bass remembering tunes I've left behind. I won't tell you it hasn't been a lot of work to get the bowing right and one does wonder, is this a total waste of time? As it gets better, it gets a lot more fun. There was a dark period here around the house...Cheers.

I just put up a new bowed fiddle tune on my myspace page for those that are interested. I got my new mics recently and I was trying every configuration that I could in the hour that mom and baby were out. This is the omni/bridge version which is not my favourite. I really think the omni/spaced is the best sound. I ended up with some of my takes sounding a little 'underwater-tremolo', I'm not sure what happened. I think I might have recorded with reverb and then unthinkingly added reverb afterwards, I don't know. Anyway, regardless of intonation issues I got a kick out of this little snippet. It's straight ahead, in a real recording I think I would change it up a lot more... But it gives my fellow bassists around here a sense of what I'm working on. In the near future I'll replace it with something more to my liking. I guess I'm not the perfectionist I always thought I was.

heres the link:
http://www.myspace.com/jasonsypher

Brought my bow to our usual jam for the first time yesterday. Found several places to use it and it was rather well received. I think it is a welcome addition. The lack of percussive attack and providing that clear marking for tempo can be a challenge to get used to though.

Roger

I just put up a new bowed fiddle tune on my myspace page for those that are interested.

Now that is some rockin' bass playing, JS! Nothing at all lumbering about that -- a lot of fiddle players would love to get that kind of momentum going.

Very fine work, man.

Ditto. Love the groove you get. I was only sorry to see the Washington song go.

Cool playing on 'Elzic's Farewell' Jason! Nice adaptation of 'Train I Ride', too. :)

Thanks for the support. I've got a whole bag of fiddle tunes (not just oldtime/bluegrass but Hungarian/Roumanian as well) that I'm working on right now trying to get them to a place where I would be happy recording them. My goal is to record them in solo, duet and possibly trio formats.
I've got some great players to work with and I'm excited to open the tunes up and collaborate with others. I've decided to record some at home so I can hear what works and what doesn't, play with arrangements and to have something to give people so they can get an idea where I'm coming from. It can be hard to convince someone that you bow Elzick's Farewell on the bass unless they've heard it.

I really like "Train Ride", Jason! Cool technique goin' on there. Great job.

I discovered this new little effect on my mac and I made some animated videos while I was cooped up in the house the other day. Bullfiddlin' on a mac.

http://www.myspace.com/jasonsypher

So anyone have any sheet music??????

Jason any sheet music for the stuff you play?

I'd love to get my hands on the music for Elzicks Farwell

See if this works....
Thank you so much. It is hard for me to grasp it, even with the recording along side. This will take some work from me.

Thanks again

max

With fiddle tunes you're better off to listen to the tune until you have it internalised, then try to express that on the instrument.

There are all kinds of great recorded versions besides Jason's. One of my favourites is on Scott Nygaard's "Dreamer's Waltz".

Have fun! :)

I agree with the post above. I played this tune as a bass player at festivals for years. So I had the tune in me long before I tried it on the bass. And furthermore, I tried it on the bass many times and thought I couldn't get a piece of it so I just gave up. Then I got a recording recently by French Carpenter and there the tune was again. He played it with two parts but hearing it helped me assemble it in my head and then on the bass. Of course, it doesn't sound too good at first. You've just to take it phrase by phrase and see if you can get any of them happening.
A lot of it has to do with the bowing and phrasing as you can see when these tunes are written out they look very childlike. There is a pulse or swing that keeps the damn thing in the air so try to practice that simple shuffle a bit. I could make you a super slow file and send it to you?

I found a free download here:
http://music.download.com/morgantownrounders/3615-8240_32-100620010.html

I agree with the post above. I played this tune as a bass player at festivals for years. So I had the tune in me long before I tried it on the bass. And furthermore, I tried it on the bass many times and thought I couldn't get a piece of it so I just gave up. Then I got a recording recently by French Carpenter and there the tune was again. He played it with two parts but hearing it helped me assemble it in my head and then on the bass. Of course, it doesn't sound too good at first. You've just to take it phrase by phrase and see if you can get any of them happening.
A lot of it has to do with the bowing and phrasing as you can see when these tunes are written out they look very childlike. Sorry about the two clef thing, I hope that isn't throwing you off. There is a pulse or swing that keeps the damn thing in the air so try to practice that simple shuffle a bit. I could make you a super slow file and send it to you?

I found a free download here:
http://music.download.com/morgantownrounders/3615-8240_32-100620010.html

Thanks.

What is throwing me off is the 2 part piano score. The toughest thing is that there is never a time when 1 line has the melody, it is more of one line split onto 2 different parts. I am not sure weather to play some of them as double stops or not.

my garageband program did that...of course, it's one line. I'll just bring those notes down to the bass clef and then it will read normally....

This is "pretty close". Remember that I use an open A, E and D whenever I see fit underneath the melody to give it more fiddle sound and complexity. I just can't really write that out so you just have to use your own discretion.

This is "pretty close". Remember that I use an open A, E and D whenever I see fit underneath the melody to give it more fiddle sound and complexity. I just can't really write that out so you just have to use your own discretion.

Thank you so much, that is amazing. I am in your debt.

Hey great, I'm so glad it worked out. I still see inconsistencies, all the triplett stuff. Occasionally the same part is written out differently but I guess that just gives you two different reads on the same passage. It was a good exercise for me to drag out the garageband and see if I could figure out the notation program. I'm sure it will do everything but I was still having a tough time correcting some passages. It would have been easier to write it out;) If you have any questions just let me know. At least this gets you the notes, the rest is in your bow... Cheers

I just realized it's written in 4/4 time, I think it is really in 2/4 but if this reads to you, that's good enough for jazz....or "fiddlin'"

Jason, I gave a listen to your tracks on myspace. Very impressive. I've been looking to incorporate some bowing on my bluegrass gigs. I've got some 'shedding to do. You've given me, and I assume some others, food for thought. Thanks.

Yes indeed. Thanks for your troubles. Jason -- I don't know if they make a Mac version but I've used a notation app called Finale Notepad -- it's free and may work out better. Just FYI.

Just a note...

After reading this thread, I was inspired to pick up the bow for a tune my (new) bluegrass band picked up.

"Ashokan Farewell" is a very legato piece, so I thought it would be cool to bow the last verse. The band loved it.

TalkBass is a good influence.

Jason, I just checked out your myspace and am blown away. Within the past couple weeks I've decided to start bowing again with the hopes of playing traditional fiddle tunes and seeing your videos has inspired me. Thanks a ton for putting those up. And the klezmer(?) band sounds awesome.

Does anybody know of any books or cds that have fiddle tunes for bass? My focus is on old time/bluegrass, but at this point I'll take what I can get.

Thanks
Alan

Anyone on here ever tried to get the percussive chop that fiddle players and cellists like rushad eggleston do? I've been working on it, and was wondering if anyone has had any success with it.

i've got a couple of examples on my blog at www.riceonthebass.com and i've been trying it out live and did it on a couple of records in the past couple of years.

I'm thrilled to finally hear other bluegrass bassists talking about bowing...and playing fiddle tunes!

At one festival my band played, I took a break with my bow. Afterwards, a bluegrass purist told me that "when you play it with the bow, it's a cello!" :)

Anyone on here ever tried to get the percussive chop that fiddle players and cellists like rushad eggleston do? I've been working on it, and was wondering if anyone has had any success with it.

i've got a couple of examples on my blog at www.riceonthebass.com and i've been trying it out live and did it on a couple of records in the past couple of years.

I've been working on it off and on for a while. I find that the technique Rushad uses of chopping parallel to the strings doesn't yield the same effects on the bass, and more often than not breaks a ton of bow hairs. I've been trying to get the same effect by chopping perpendicular to the strings (in line with usual bow movement). Also, I find the chop works better on the higher strings than the lower (in contrast to the cello or fiddle chop, where they tend to chop on the lower strings). You get more of the "cccrrch" sound.

What about you?

Darrol Anger's 'Chops and Grooves' DVD is a pretty good intro to the technique, for those who don't know it. Just wish it wasn't so cheezy to sit through.

Natalie Haas plays cello and has an assortment of chops that she uses to great effect.

This (http://music.yahoo.com/ar-255748-videos--Natalie-MacMaster)may be more Celtic than bluegrass but it is worth checking out. Edgar works some nice chopping into the mix.

Natalie Haas plays cello and has an assortment of chops that she uses to great effect.


i love her playing! i've been checking her and rushad eggleston out for a few years now...trying to adapt what they do to the bass. also, darol anger and casey driessen are monsters with the chopness.

i've been employing it alot this summer at live gigs.

i'll hopefully throw some video up on my blog soon.

I've been working on it off and on for a while. I find that the technique Rushad uses of chopping parallel to the strings doesn't yield the same effects on the bass, and more often than not breaks a ton of bow hairs. I've been trying to get the same effect by chopping perpendicular to the strings (in line with usual bow movement). Also, I find the chop works better on the higher strings than the lower (in contrast to the cello or fiddle chop, where they tend to chop on the lower strings). You get more of the "cccrrch" sound.

What about you?

Darrol Anger's 'Chops and Grooves' DVD is a pretty good intro to the technique, for those who don't know it. Just wish it wasn't so cheezy to sit through.

i actually learned alot from the video and i chalked the cheesyness up to those guys being pretty goofy....they kind of are.

i definitely break some bow hairs...at least one per tune that i chop on. i'll have to try that perpendicular thing...

i usually aim for the d string when i go for the chop, for the same reason you said....the low strings don't speak as easily.

I threw these up in the last couple of weeks. Nothing heavy-weight, just me working some simple tunes into my bass fiddling. One is an irish original from Liz Carroll and the other is a standard bluegrass/oldtime chestnut, Big Sciota. It's been a good exercise to just play these into my laptop camera and force myself to hear, see and share them. I'm learning a lot from the experience. Enjoy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms0l6Pgr0Gs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiDL6-cwPa4

Great stuff as usual, Jason. Why did I not know you played lefty?

Also, thanks for the Natalie MacMaster video. dig it. But why do these video have to be so cornball? I wish they wouldn't cut it up like they do, and just show the live thing as is.

I don't play lefty, it's the mirror image of the webcam on my computer and I always forget to turn it around before I upload them...a rainy day project I guess. Thanks for the listen.

I don't play lefty, it's the mirror image of the webcam on my computer and I always forget to turn it around before I upload them...a rainy day project I guess. Thanks for the listen.

Oh. Hah. I had a hunch but didn't bother typing it.