My Good People of the Bass Forum,

I am a beginner (6mos) and chose the fretless bass as my weapon of choice ... this weekend I was in Sam Ash Bass shop and saw a NS Design 5 String electric upright ... I want to purchase it. My Question is, being a "newbie", do you guys think it is to monumental of a task to try to learn the both of these instruments at one time?!?! Should I become more proficient with the fretless I have first before moving on to the upright?!? Or would I grow slower but consistent if I work on both of them everyday?!?! :(

What would you guys do?!?!:eek:

My Good People of the Bass Forum,

I am a beginner (6mos) and chose the fretless bass as my weapon of choice ... this weekend I was in Sam Ash Bass shop and saw a NS Design 5 String electric upright ... I want to purchase it. My Question is, being a "newbie", do you guys think it is to monumental of a task to try to learn the both of these instruments at one time?!?! Should I become more proficient with the fretless I have first before moving on to the upright?!? Or would I grow slower but consistent if I work on both of them everyday?!?! :(

What would you guys do?!?!:eek:

Well, you'd have your work cut out for you, that's for sure.

First, you should be taking lessons on bass guitar right now, from the best teacher you can find in your area. This will ensure that you're not getting into bad habits with your technique, and that you learn theory while learning bass.

Now, if you choose to buy the upright, whether it's electric or not, I STRONGLY suggest that you find a good teacher from Day 1. The techniques are not interchangable on the two, and no book is sufficient to do the trick here.

Ask yourself whether you have the time and money for all of this, and there's your answer.

Good luck!

Andy

Ahhhh!!! As usual, KayCee rides to my rescue! Makes sense ... just love the sound of both but was not sure how monumental a task it would've been ... Thanks Buddy ... can't wait until you get to New York!:)

P.S. by the way ... YOU ARE MY TEACHER!!!

DON"T BUY AN ELECTRIC UPRIGHT TIL YOU HAVE A GOOD ACOUSTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The EUB is a secondary instrument, and alot of people will give you bad vibes if you bring it to their gig. Also, think about how wonderful it will be to get together and play music acoustically with your friends once you have a nice upright. Just like people did since the dawn of time, til amps came out in the middle of the last century.

Acoustic music trumps all.

DON"T BUY AN ELECTRIC UPRIGHT TIL YOU HAVE A GOOD ACOUSTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The EUB is a secondary instrument, and alot of people will give you bad vibes if you bring it to their gig.

I disagree that it is a secondary instrument, especially in the hands of artists such as Eberhard Weber.

I just started playing upright about a month ago. URB and BG are and have to be treated as two different instruments. The scale length is very different so has its own technique. That different technique IMO will also influence how you think about constructing lines. Now again in my rookie opinion what you learn on URB can transfer easily to BG, but not the reverse. URB you must have a teacher there is too many things about posture, fingering, bowing, and intonation that you need a teacher to learn.

The URB you will learn more about music and develop proper approaches to playing. That is because you are learng an instrument that is 100's of year old and 100's of year of refining how to play and teach. You will develop your ear more, sightreading, and musicianship. All skills that will make your playing of anything else simplier and better. But playing URB is a big commitment. Like Rabbath one of the master of the instrument say you need to play scales two hours a day. That is just scales nothing else. URB is a very physical instrument you will be building a lot of hand strength and endurance. So after playing URB playing BG anything on a BG will be a breeze.

I went and bought a used stundent bass I wanted the sound of a real acoustic bass and happy I did. When you learn URB you discover how they are built is part of the key to learning where notes are. Parts of the bass become your reference points. IMO most EUB's don't have those reference points. Since they don't have the body you don't develop the correct posture. Then I hear some EUB don't lend themselves to bowing.

Bowing is the main teacher of the URB. You think you played something in tune, pickup the bow and its a different story. Also the bow won't accept doing things halfassed. You have to the proper way to use it or it can make alien sounds. That starts coming into all your practice to thing right becuase otherwise your wasting time.

So URB is a great instrument, it will teach your a lot about playing bass and other musicianship skills, your BG playing will be benefit from your playing URB. BUT URB is a commintment and question is do you think you can make the commintment?

I disagree that it is a secondary instrument, especially in the hands of artists such as Eberhard Weber.

+1

yes, it may be a secondary instrument in the minds of most "jazz" guys today. But I get a fantastic reaction to using it on folk-singer-songwriter support gigs...

it is also the main bass instrument in much latin music...


but it is a different beast than a BG, very different...get a teacher....decide if you really want to learn positional db fingering, not be a one finger per fret boy like me!

Attenergy,

The electric upright will be very different to play well than the bass guitar. Scale length, neck shape, posture, action, right hand technique, and more are unique between the two. But, as you already have a fretless BG, you can cop a bit of the upright sound with your current equipment. I would stick with the BG and use the "saved" money on lessons with a great teacher. And if it matters to you, not everyone shares ChicagoDoubler's opinion in post 4.

NOBODY STARTS ON THE ELECTRIC UPRIGHT.

I play one in the right context, and yes, some people love it.
Just as many hate it. I have had many band leaders specifically ask me to NEVER bring one to a gig again.

How many top level jazz musicians have you seen using one at all? I can think of about 3. How many top level jazz artists have you seen playing the acoustic bass exclusively? I can think of dozens, bare minimum. You ever see Ray Brown playing an EUB? What about Christian Mcbride? Dave Holland? Have faith in our beautiful tradition. Playing the URB well is such a rewarding experience, and plus, you get twice the gigs, immediately.

Everytime I bring my lovely upright to a gig, I get compliments on how pretty it is, and how good it sounds. When I bring my baby bass (EUB) I usually get giggles and even ugly comments. After they hear it, people are surprised, but wow first impressions are important.:scowl:

If you want an electric upright, wait until you can play the real thing.

Talk to people who make their living exclusively from playing and you'll find that not only am I not alone in this opinion, but you are unlikely to hear any full time professional musicians encouraging you to start on EUB anywhere besides silly bass talk sites.

Besides. Acoustic basses. Just. Plain. Sound. Better.

FWIW, Glen Moore and David Friesen are both lovely players and beautiful people who tour on EUB. I have heard both play both instruments from just a few feet away, and I can personally attest to the beauty each pulls out of both instruments. Both started on acoustic basses. And IMNSHO, both sound considerably better on the acoustic upright bass. You will too.

Funny, it used to be that jazz players considered the "Fender Bass" (that's what they called it...some old guys still do call it that) a "secondary instrument". "Do you double on Fender?" was the standard question as "Jazz-Rock" became cool with jazz players in the early seventies. Of course, many players (including diehard jazzers) are making a career on bass guitar now, many having never played a note on Double Bass in their lives.

I spent a considerable amount of my career studying and performing on Double Bass, in many contexts. I love the instrument, and understand your passion for it, chicagodoubler. However, for someone in a band that's going to require a "solidbody" anyway, I don't see any reason for them not to get the EUB and take some lessons in proper technique. At the volumes that many bands play, Double Basses often have horrible feedback problems. A decent quality Double Bass is costly, and out of the budget of many players. It is also quite fragile to be used in some of the hostile envirnments rock bands are exposed to.

On the other hand, if a bassist really relates to the EUB, maybe it will propel their interest in making the investment in a carved Double Bass later on.

BTW, if jazz is really all about freedom, shouldn't that freedom include playing whatever axe you want?

I highly recommend focusing on bass guitar for the time being. You've chosen fretless-i commend you. Spending the money studying with the best teacher you can afford will be worth waiting to start EUB or DB. Learning from a great teacher is well worth the money and will be more than worth it with regards to your playing-if you put the required effort and time into it.

I'm typical of it seems like my generation [the late teens/early 20s] crowd of doublers.... I started on bass guitar and then picked up and focused on DB for college. I agree that the sticks have their place, but IMO-it's not at the level of acceptance where i'd want to have one of those as my sole DB-like instrument if there's intentions to play jazz or any type of "traditional" music such as folk, jazz, classical, etc. Maybe in a fusiony band or a rock band for an "acoustic" tune. If i want to get weird like that-i'll pull out my DeArmond Ashbory.

However, if you want to play DB and the goal is an acoustic DB.....don't worry about the NS Stick-type EUBs. If you want one because "it's cool"-i say wait 3 months and then decide. I didn't check to see your age in the profile, but i think it'd be a mistake to buy one at this point.

I have only played the NS Design EUBs at Guitar Center-2 occasions that i can recall, the 2nd one was to double to see if i still agreed with my first impression of it. The impression is that i can't stand playing them. Between the sound and the feel-it was one of the few basses that i've played where i didn't think "i could use one of these".

So-my question for you with regards to the NS bass is-what is your tonal goal for it? I ask that question of my guitar playing buddies when they come to me for gear advice. If your tonal goal is for it to sound like an (amplified) acoustic DB-i say look elsewhere, if it's because you like that specific sound-then wait a bit and then get a teacher to study it with.

best of luck.

edit: With regards to the visual appeal of the instrument to the audience-i play at a small place here in Chicago called Uncommon Ground. Walking into that place w/a DB alone is enough to get some buzz going for our group because i immediately hear "Who's he playing with? What is that?" Mainly because the place is small and i end up bumping almost everyone that i pass with my bass on accident. Once our set starts people look at me w/big googly eyes. I'd like to think it's my ummm "rockstar" looks, but it's because the bass is huge and most people aren't used to seeing them up close.

Ugh. I like how the OP's questions were answered very adequately by the first response, yet people continue to argue well beyond that... It's not a war people, this is music. You don't need to try and scare every newbie away from playing DB. If someone said, "hey guys! I want to try and learn piano, so I'm going to get a Casio keyboard" would you all be posting responses like "OMG NO! DONT DO IT!! It's impossible to learn on a Casio!!!! Did Mozart play a Casio???? Did Rachmaninoff play a Casio???? NO!!! If you don't learn on a Steinway grand you will be doomed to failure and ridicule!!!"?

I don't see any reason why you couldn't learn on an EUB. Does a real acoustic Double Bass sound better? Of course it does, but that isn't what he was asking. Is it a wise idea to try and learn BG and DB at the same time when you've only been playing 6 months? Maybe, maybe not, it depends on how much time you're devoting to practice, but none of you even asked that question.

About the only thing you guys are proving here is that people will judge you if you play EUB. And btw, there are plenty of snobby purists who will talk down to you because you use the term "upright" to describe a Double Bass... I believe the quote goes "Judge not lest ye be judged."

Sorry for the rant but this kind of thing is why I tend to steer clear of the DB forums...

Why isn't this discussion in the DB forum?

BTW there's nothing wrong with learning both at the same time if you work really really hard. Many of the professional players out there work/ worked on both at the same time. Some, like McBride, Alain Caron, and Patitucci, even managed to get good on both...

Even better yet,

Learn how to play the (acoustic) upright well and you'll find the electric to be much easier to play.

check out the "Buddha Rope" Bill Dickens uses- he got into it cuz he noticed that upright players were capable of playing the electric on a much higher level:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kyUCOeUTM7E

kaycee- jazz is about freedom, but bring an NS to any of the gigs I play and you'll be playing for free before you know it.

hunta- who takes offense at the term upright?


And finally, the whole issue about not learning on an EUB is that you will not develop the sound you will on an acoustic. On an acoustic upright, you really gotta pull the string hard to get a good sound. I've played damn near every electric upright out there, and none require the type of force needed to develop a real sound on the bass.

Just my opinion by Ive never liked the sound of any EUB's. They always seem to lack the sustain of an electric fretless, and they certainly don't have the acoustic character of an upright. (Except maybe the baby basses, but that's whole other instrument too!). If you want upright tone, buy an upright.

That said, if the EUB sound appeals to you, and you don't want to buy an actual upright. Go for it. There's enough room in the world for you to play EUB exclusively, as your first instrument if you want. To hell with anyone that tells you otherwise.

The instruments technique could not be any further removed though, so heed the forum advice regarding getting a great teacher. Don't under estimate the importance of technique on the electric bass either...

Good luck to you!

Lots of passionate input in this thread to a very simple question by Attenenergy!

Just a couple more thoughts on this topic.

I think we agree across the board that an EUB is a different animal tonally than a Double Bass.

My experience is that there is a HUGE difference in the tone and playability of one brand of EUB to the next. Just as with bass guitars, it would be a good idea to play more than one before you buy (you probably have to go to a NAMM show to find more than one in the same building). I will admit that I have zero experience with the NS Design Bass. I owned a Clevinger at one time that had a very nice sound, not boxy like some I've heard.

I also have not seen an ERB that was designed in a way to be played seated, which is my preferred posture for playing. Most have pieces to simulate the upper bout while standing. Some don't, though, and have to be played while they're attached to a stand. I don't know if I'd like that or not.

Also, find one that has the proper arch and spacing the bridge. This is manditory if you ever plan to play arco (with a bow) on the thing, which you will almost certainly be doing if you take any sort of lessons.

I suppose that this discussion could have been in the DB forum, but they've probably argued it 100 times already, and this forum seems to enjoy a healthy debate! :D

I don't see any reason why you couldn't learn on an EUB. Does a real acoustic Double Bass sound better? Of course it does, but that isn't what he was asking. Is it a wise idea to try and learn BG and DB at the same time when you've only been playing 6 months? Maybe, maybe not, it depends on how much time you're devoting to practice, but none of you even asked that question.


The physical differences between the EUB in question and an actual acoustic DB are worth the dicussion on that part of the question. Coming from the acoustic stand point-there aren't the familiar "landmarks" of the body to help clue in where you're at on the neck. This is without getting into balance of the instrument, right hand technique, or a whole world of other specifics. Sound is a part of it, but tastes in tone are as varied in the DB world as they are in the BG.

take it easy.

these are all interesting responses ... I am really glad I asked because you guys covered some things I had no clue about. I never thought about the possibility of "switching" over to the Double Bass and how that may hinder me etc etc ... I could have never perceived a lot of the information you guys have shared here. This is why I love this forum ... yeah there are a lot of opinions out there but when I read through them, I get a lot out of what you guys speak about. I like all the different perpectives and it helps me make an informed decision. I wanted the NS because it looked close to an acoustic. I chose the fretless because I really wanted the acoustic sound (Stanley Clarke/Brian Bromberg/Charnett Moffet etc) but did not want to lug an acoustic around Manhattan. So ... I do enjoy the fretless and eventually I will be asking you guys how to get even more of a groovier sound out of it (feel free to suggest now) but thought I could take another approach to the Double Bass and sought of have the best of both worlds ... I now see it is not like that. I think for now I will stay with the fretless and master that. If I become great enough on that instrument, no one will turn me down for serious jazz bass gigs!!! Or I'll start my own band!!!:smug: :)

Unfortunately, no matter how good you are on the fretless, alot of guys will not hire you for a jazz gig. If you really want to be a professional jazz bassist, you need to play both. See the Ask Janek Gwizdala to hear about how hard it is to get called for a jazz gig on the electric. And he's friggin Janek Gwizdala!

You're young still. If you are taught correctly, there's no reason you can't learn both instruments proficiently. I, and many other people on here, played both axes in high school and college, and work on both professionaly full time today. It's such a great feeling when someone asks you if you play the other axe to say "yes, I play the sh*t out of it!"

BTW regarding the fretless-

a couple things that'll dramatically help your progress:
Learn every note Jaco ever played.
Practice with albums, sequencers, pianists, tape recorder, whatever, but use a pitch reference all the time when you practice. Nobody cares what you're playing if it's in the least bit out of tune.

Unfortunately, no matter how good you are on the fretless, alot of guys will not hire you for a jazz gig. If you really want to be a professional jazz bassist, you need to play both. See the Ask Janek Gwizdala to hear about how hard it is to get called for a jazz gig on the electric. And he's friggin Janek Gwizdala!

You're young still. If you are taught correctly, there's no reason you can't learn both instruments proficiently. I, and many other people on here, played both axes in high school and college, and work on both professionaly full time today. It's such a great feeling when someone asks you if you play the other axe to say "yes, I play the sh*t out of it!"

BTW regarding the fretless-

a couple things that'll dramatically help your progress:
Learn every note Jaco ever played.
Practice with albums, sequencers, pianists, tape recorder, whatever, but use a pitch reference all the time when you practice. Nobody cares what you're playing if it's in the least bit out of tune.

OK ... Thanks Chicagodoubler ... do you think I should just go for the Double Bass?!?!:confused:

No way man

Play both!

playing two instruments = twice the gigs!!!!!!!!!!

Listen to the voices of reason on here. Get a good teacher. Practice efficiently. Start with simple music. Transcribe. Make us proud.

No way man

Play both!

playing two instruments = twice the gigs!!!!!!!!!!

Listen to the voices of reason on here. Get a good teacher. Practice efficiently. Start with simple music. Transcribe. Make us proud.


You got it Chcagdoubler ... how much time a day should I devote to each?!?!

On fretless: intonation is one of the hardest things to get together with a fretless. And it is a lot of work to get it together. In many ways even more difficult than upright as you really can't "feel" the neck like you can with upright. My advice: play lots of scales, arpeggios and double stops until you can do it in your sleep and in tune. Reference notes off of open strings as much as possible to check yourself. Good luck.

As far as the EUB goes, it is very different from the real acoustic but I'm not as against you getting one now to goof with as some others seem to be. I play almost exclusively upright now but played fretless exclusively for about 20 years before getting my first upright (I've had maybe 3 BG gigs in the last 3 years; the rest have been upright). I've since picked up a couple of EUBs and while I would never take one to a jazz gig, it is useful with folk gigs and I've even played it on a rock gig with better than good results. It was certainly eye catching. And you'll learn the fingering and develop the muscles needed to eventually play the real upright. They also make good practice instruments. When I go away, I throw one of my EUBs in the car and can practice at very low volume just about anywhere. Can't do that with a real upright.

Now if you want to play jazz or mostly jazz, forget the BG and the EUB and get a real upright. Doubling is great but in jazz, the upright is the "go to" instrument. You'll get way more jazz gigs playing a real upright than fretless or EUB. And going from upright to BG will be easier than the other way around although BG is it's own instrument and will require it's own learning curve.

The drawback is uprights are really expensive and by the time you get a bass and an amp and pickup and all of the stuff you'll need, you've spent an enormous amount of money. Fretless is, by far, the cheaper option. If you decide bass isn't for you, a few hundred bucks invested in a fretless will hurt less and the thousands you'll invest in an upright.

Ultimately, your decision is about what kind of music you want to play and how serious you want get.

mark

On fretless: intonation is one of the hardest things to get together with a fretless. And it is a lot of work to get it together. In many ways even more difficult than upright as you really can't "feel" the neck like you can with upright. My advice: play lots of scales, arpeggios and double stops until you can do it in your sleep and in tune. Reference notes off of open strings as much as possible to check yourself. Good luck.

As far as the EUB goes, it is very different from the real acoustic but I'm not as against you getting one now to goof with as some others seem to be. I play almost exclusively upright now but played fretless exclusively for about 20 years before getting my first upright (I've had maybe 3 BG gigs in the last 3 years; the rest have been upright). I've since picked up a couple of EUBs and while I would never take one to a jazz gig, it is useful with folk gigs and I've even played it on a rock gig with better than good results. It was certainly eye catching. And you'll learn the fingering and develop the muscles needed to eventually play the real upright. They also make good practice instruments. When I go away, I throw one of my EUBs in the car and can practice at very low volume just about anywhere. Can't do that with a real upright.

Now if you want to play jazz or mostly jazz, forget the BG and the EUB and get a real upright. Doubling is great but in jazz, the upright is the "go to" instrument. You'll get way more jazz gigs playing a real upright than fretless or EUB. And going from upright to BG will be easier than the other way around although BG is it's own instrument and will require it's own learning curve.

The drawback is uprights are really expensive and by the time you get a bass and an amp and pickup and all of the stuff you'll need, you've spent an enormous amount of money. Fretless is, by far, the cheaper option. If you decide bass isn't for you, a few hundred bucks invested in a fretless will hurt less and the thousands you'll invest in an upright.

Ultimately, your decision is about what kind of music you want to play and how serious you want get.

mark

Whoa!!! this is Heavey Mark ... thanks!!! I guess in all honesty, I am going to have to pick up a Double Bass! I am a Huge fan of Stanley Clarke (return to forever days and prior) and a host of others Most notably Brian Bromberg, Charnett Moffett, Miroslav Vitous and a few ... well ... a lot others. Where do I start on my quest to get the upright. I actually study now out of Dr. Mark Mortons Miraculous fingering for the Double Bass and just transcribe everything to fit the fretless, I have his Miraculous Arpeggios fingerings and His Torturous Excercises ... I also work out of the Simandl Book ... so ... I guess all I need now is the Double bass! Have no idea how Iam going to carry this thing around the City of New York!:crying: :(

Dude. Literally thousands of upright players take their bass on public transport in NYC.

In actuality, an upright isn't that expensive. For the cost of a USA MTD you can get a whole lot of bass. I've seen decent Chinese uprights for pretty darn cheap. Especially in NYC, you should be able to find a used upright for cheaper than a good highend EB.

Sounds like you're involved int he right course of study- Simandl+ transcription will get you pretty far. THe only thing missing is a good teacher, and there's no better place in the world to find one than NYC!

Dude. Literally thousands of upright players take their bass on public transport in NYC.

In actuality, an upright isn't that expensive. For the cost of a USA MTD you can get a whole lot of bass. I've seen decent Chinese uprights for pretty darn cheap. Especially in NYC, you should be able to find a used upright for cheaper than a good highend EB.

Sounds like you're involved int he right course of study- Simandl+ transcription will get you pretty far. THe only thing missing is a good teacher, and there's no better place in the world to find one than NYC!

THANKS AGAIN CHICAGODOUBLER!!! I am going over to 48th Street this evening to look around through all the bass shops to see what I find ... to start off ... is something in the 2 0r 3K range sensible to purchase?!?!? And are the fingerings consistent from upright to upright?!?!:(

THANKS AGAIN CHICAGODOUBLER!!! I am going over to 48th Street this evening to look around through all the bass shops to see what I find ... to start off ... is something in the 2 0r 3K range sensible to purchase?!?!? And are the fingerings consistent from upright to upright?!?!:(

You could certainly get a pretty good upright for 2-3k. You should bring someone who knows something about uprights with you before you plunk your money down though. You don't want to get a bass that needs serious repair. I would seriously consider going down to David Gage's shop. He's somewhere near the WTC. Or check out the Kolstein shop in Queens. You'll get a fully functioning instrument from either place and they will both stand up for the work.

Fingerings depend somewhat on the size of your hands and size of the bass (1/2, 3/4 or 7/8) but for the most part they are the same from bass to bass. There is no one right method for fingering either. There are things you can do on a 1/2 size bass (The Kolstein Busetto Lafaro Travel bass is a great 1/2 size fully carved bass) that are much harder to do on a 7/8. I would look for a 3/4. They are the most common and you'll have the greatest selection of strings.

mark

You could certainly get a pretty good upright for 2-3k. You should bring someone who knows something about uprights with you before you plunk your money down though. You don't want to get a bass that needs serious repair. I would seriously consider going down to David Gage's shop. He's somewhere near the WTC. Or check out the Kolstein shop in Queens. You'll get a fully functioning instrument from either place and they will both stand up for the work.

Fingerings depend somewhat on the size of your hands and size of the bass (1/2, 3/4 or 7/8) but for the most part they are the same from bass to bass. There is no one right method for fingering either. There are things you can do on a 1/2 size bass (The Kolstein Busetto Lafaro Travel bass is a great 1/2 size fully carved bass) that are much harder to do on a 7/8. I would look for a 3/4. They are the most common and you'll have the greatest selection of strings.

mark

Great!!! I will find a friend of mine, Jimmy Greenwood, and get him to go with me. The 3/4 has a real bass sound?!?!?!

THe only thing missing is a good teacher, and there's no better place in the world to find one than NYC!

+1

Eugene Levinson (one of my teachers from years ago), is now the principal bassist in the NY Philharmonic. He's one of the world's finest on the classical end, and I would certainly recommend him.

Obviously, there are many other fine teachers in your area.

Great!!! I will find a friend of mine, Jimmy Greenwood, and get him to go with me. The 3/4 has a real bass sound?!?!?!

Strange as it seems, 3/4 is a standard sized Double Bass, or at least the one used most commonly.

Very few people play 7/8ths basses. Only an idiot like me would carry such a big bass to a crappy jazz gig... 3/4 is universal standard.

Regarding fingering- I'm sure you already know the ring finger is not used on the upright below thumb position. Right? If you're working out of Simandl you already know this.

2-3k yep should get you a whole lot of bass. Just make sure you look around ALOT before picking one up. Uprights very tremendously from bass to bass, much more so than the EB.

Strange as it seems, 3/4 is a standard sized Double Bass, or at least the one used most commonly.

Great!!! KayCee to the rescue again!!! Do you still play the double bass?!?!? Can I become relatively proficient with roughly 2 hours a day of practice?!?!

Very few people play 7/8ths basses. Only an idiot like me would carry such a big bass to a crappy jazz gig... 3/4 is universal standard.

Regarding fingering- I'm sure you already know the ring finger is not used on the upright below thumb position. Right? If you're working out of Simandl you already know this.

2-3k yep should get you a whole lot of bass. Just make sure you look around ALOT before picking one up. Uprights very tremendously from bass to bass, much more so than the EB.

Chicagodoubler ... thanks again!!! Now .. since I can't play the double bass ... what am I looking for in or how can I ascertain if it has the right sound quality that I am looking for (Stanley Clarke/Brian Bromberg)?!?!:confused:

Very few people play 7/8ths basses. Only an idiot like me would carry such a big bass to a crappy jazz gig... 3/4 is universal standard.


You're not the only idiot. I have a small 7/8 and my compatriot here in Pittsburgh, Paul Thompson also lugs a 7/8 around. Big sound. Lots to haul around.

Yeah I love the 7/8ths acoustically, but if you're using an amp, no reason to haul around all that lumber. My Chiropractor LOVES my bass, by the way.:hmm:


A couple things- you really are looking for a bass with a big open E. Since you haven't heard many basses up close, you really want some experienced ears around. Also check craigslist, etc... You may be able to find a great deal, but should have it looked over by a luthier either way.

Two hours a day is a good start. In high school I did 10 or more, but with a better teacher and more efficient practice, I could have gotten more done in 3. BTW, Christian McBride claims to have done 3 a day coming up- one each electric, bow, jazz.

Either way, expect to spend about 5 years working on basics, even with lots of practice and a good teacher.

Great!!! KayCee to the rescue again!!! Do you still play the double bass?!?!? Can I become relatively proficient with roughly 2 hours a day of practice?!?!

I really can't answer your question about practice time without knowing anything about your musical abilities and your definition of "relatively proficient". I will say that during the symphonic portion of my career, preparing for auditions etc, I would practice about four hours per day.

Actually, I just sold my 160-year-old French bass (a Claudot) a couple of years ago. I was only using it in the studio occasionally, and it really wasn't a practical bass to haul into clubs at a value of 25k. I would like to have a nice EUB again someday though, as it would likely find it's way onstage. Well under half of my gigs are straight-ahead jazz gigs, though...most of them are rock, r&b, funk, etc. along with teaching and studio work.

I know that thousands of bassists do it, but I sure don't envy anyone having to haul around a bass in New York, especially if it requires public transportation. What a hassle!

Anyway, if you do buy a double bass, make sure that you take it to someone for a proper setup. I've seen basses with strings so high you could hardly push 'em down with pliers!

Chicagodoubler ... thanks again!!! Now .. since I can't play the double bass ... what am I looking for in or how can I ascertain if it has the right sound quality that I am looking for (Stanley Clarke/Brian Bromberg)?!?!:confused:

Strings will make a difference. They both use Spirocore Weichs.

However, I think you should go over to the DB forum and check out the threads that are already written on this. There are thousands of posts all ready for your eager eyes and, if you still have questions, there are dozens of other upright bass players that will answer your questions.

Yeah I love the 7/8ths acoustically, but if you're using an amp, no reason to haul around all that lumber. My Chiropractor LOVES my bass, by the way.:hmm:


Mine (1928 Juzek) sounds great through my AI Focus with AI extension cabs. Straight in through a BP 100 using the high Z input. No preamp needed. Strung with Spiro Mittels with a Dominant G.

I also have a 3/4 (1974 Juzek) strung with gut. I only use a mic (AMT) with that one. Gut is LOUD. It goes out for minimal amp or no amp gigs.

And I have a Kolstein travel bass which is half size in scale but with a substantially reduced, though fully carved, body. It is a breeze to haul around and it is my bass of choice if the volume is high or moderately high. Also using a BP 100 and run through the AI system. Spiro Mittels. It sounds great amplified but it is a little thin for recording.

My EUB is a Yamaha Silent Bass 2. Haven't used it for a while but it was strung with Spiro Mittels and I used the built in pickup. I'm thinking about digging it out and putting a Fishman First Circle pickup on it just to see what it would sound like. I have one lying around.

My main fretless for the last 10 years is a Fender Jaco signature fretless. Before that I had a Fender Custom shop prototype '62 Jazz Reissue that someone else made fretless. The serial number predates the official run of '62 Jazz reissues. You can tell it was hand made because all of the work on it is perfect unlike your standard slapped together Fender. It has an extremely thin neck on it. I play anywhere from 10-20 gigs per month and fretless has been out 3 times in the last 3 years. I've pretty much lost my dexterity on it. I've had so little call for it that I just don't use it anymore.

mark

contrary to some posts in this thread, an upright bass IS "the real thing". bass guitars and electric upright are modern. and to whoever said nobody starts on upright... i started on upright years before i ever picked up a bass guitar.

learn both at the same time!! learn piano while youre at it.

+1 on learning theory

I say that you get really proficient on acoustic upright bass and then buy the fretless because playing the fretless will seem extremely easy after developing good skills on the upright. If you want to use an "electric upright" just buy a nice pickup for your acoustic upright.

I say that you get really proficient on acoustic upright bass and then buy the fretless because playing the fretless will seem extremely easy after developing good skills on the upright. If you want to use an "electric upright" just buy a nice pickup for your acoustic upright.

Well that brings up another point. Once you put a pickup on an acoustic bass and put it through an amp, it's an electric bass. Period.

Well that brings up another point. Once you put a pickup on an acoustic bass and put it through an amp, it's an electric bass. Period.

True. It also has a 42 inch scale. Gigantic flat wound strings if they're steel or animal intestines if they're gut. A giant hollow resonant cavity that significantly affects the sound as captured by the piezo pickup. A piezo pickup that is mounted on a) the bridge wings b) on the front the the bridge or c) under one of the bridge footers. A long ebony fretless fingerboard. Is played vertically and you have to throw your hand over the fingerboard at what would be the 12th fret if it had frets just so you can continue playing up the neck. Other than that it is just like any other electric bass. Sorry, I'm being snide. What was your point anyway?

Some people only use amps at low volume to make their bass sound more present. They strive for as transparent an amplifed sound as possible. Frequently, they will use a microphone or a microphone coupled with a pickup. They, typically, have high(er) action and either hybrid strings or gut strings or if they use steel strings, they use old fairly dead steel strings. For these people, the amp is almost not there.

Other people play at higher volumes and their sound will be mostly amp. Stanley Clarke is a guy who uses thin steel strings (Spiro Weichs) with low action and his sound is heavily influenced by his amp and his choice of pickup (Fishman BP-100 which is a very bright piezo pickup).

Most guy seems to find a middle balance. They're loud enough to be heard with a band. The amp and pickup inevitably colors their sound somewhat but the sound is still clearly originating from an acoustic instrument.

mark

Sorry, I'm being snide. What was your point anyway?


It was a little snide, but well-constructed.

I wasn't slamming upright bass at all. I was responding to jazzbasser535's comment, "If you want to use an "electric upright" just buy a nice pickup for your acoustic upright."

My experience is that there can be a number of problems associated with this. Many of the nuances of a double bass are compromised or obliterated by pickups, eq's, speakers, cabinets, and alas, the sound guy out front that gets to have his input twiddling knobs in concert settings.

I've dealt with this stuff myself, and it can be frustrating. I found that in some of the settings requiring amplification, I could often get a better tone (without fighting feedback) out of by Clevinger EUB than I could out of my Claudot or my 200-year-old Italian bass, which were fitted with piezo pickups. I don't believe that piezo pickups capture some of the nuances of a double bass. If they did, you'd go into the studio and plug straight into the board. Fact is, though, it requires a first-rate mic to even begin to capture that resonance on a recording. As you mentioned, some may use a mic live, but that just isn't practical at high volumes.

My frustration was primarily in a fusion setting, where the acoustic sound of the bass itself was essentially unheard by the audience (similar to the Stanley Clarke model).

In a lighter jazz setting, where the audience might be hearing 50 percent acoustic/ 50 percent amplifier, I agree that an EUB just doesn't have the same tone qualities as the double bass.

BTW, my Italian bass was a 5/8 bass with a 40 inch scale, and I've seen full-sized basses with scales as long as 44 inches. 42" is probably the average.

I see where you're going. Sure. There is no way you are going to take a large aged resonant wood chamber, clip a vibration sensitive pickup to one tiny part of it, convert those vibrations into electric signals and run them into a smaller box made of wood and paper and get as rich a sound out of it as the original large aged resonant wood chamber. It'll be louder though.

When you get to fusion or rock volumes, certainly BG or EUB becomes the weapon of choice. You have a much higher volume potential before feedback.

And: I was using 42 inch scale just as an example. The paragraph would have even clunkier than it was if I had elaborated. My Kolstein travel bass has a 39.5 inch mensure. My '74 Juzek has a 41.5 inch mensure and my '28 Juzek has a 42.5 inch mensure. My Fender Jazz has 34 inch scale.

mark

Just gotta mention Acoustic Image amps here. Guys ask me all the time if my amp is on. Of course I pull the sh*t out of the strings and play with the amp as low as possible...

Other musicians interact alot better and by golly it just swings harder when you play at lower volume levels!

Unless you're rockin with a loud drummer. Then bring the full stack.

Other musicians interact alot better and by golly it just swings harder when you play at lower volume levels!



Man, this is SO true. And so few people get it. I love it when guys don't start at fff and stay there all night. Dynamics and texture and swing all come out. It is so much more satisfying.

mark

Man, this is SO true. And so few people get it. I love it when guys don't start at fff and stay there all night. Dynamics and texture and swing all come out. It is so much more satisfying.

mark

That is one of the things I love about playing Blues those cats love to use dynamics to make a statement. Work down to a whisper then work it back up with a groove that will shake the walls.

Lots of great posts.

Definately buy a wheel for your DB. I use a Gaines wheel to get my DB around Chicago. Without it-i'd probably be in better shape, but i'd have killer back problems.

As far as specific gear goes-from the guys you mentioned, we're going for pretty different tones, but that's cool. The action of the bass has a lot to do with the sound. At least 2 of the guys you mentioned [i haven't listened to much Miroslav besides some early Weather Report] use remarkably low action to help get the sound they want. I keep mine pretty medium-it's high enough where i can get the nice big sound i want, but it's low enough that it's not a bear to play.

For more information on their setups-there's a thread on the DB side that talks about Brian Bromberg's bass/pickup setup.

A note about bass sizes-they aren't consistent. If you compare one companies 3/4 to another-there will be some variation. I play a large 3/4 or small 7/8s bass with a 42inch string scale[New Standard Cleveland] and i love it. I played a teacher's bass that was much smaller-i think a small 3/4 that had a 40.5 inch string scale and it felt entirely different. Sounded amazing, but felt different.

As it has been said in this thread numerous times and as soon as you post on the DB side it will be said again-get a good teacher and practice efficiently. There's no use putting in 5 hours of practice if you aren't focused. I try to practice in 30min-1 hour increments and just do several sessions a day. I gauge it by how my attention span is lasting-if i find my mind wandering i take a break and come back to it later.

kaycee- jazz is about freedom, but bring an NS to any of the gigs I play and you'll be playing for free before you know it.


Wow must be quite elitist gigs there then, since I started bringing my NS to gigs I've been getting more work than I can handle :hmm:
"and jazz is about freedom"...yeah right :rolleyes:

I do have to to say though that upright bass technique is a completely different animal in itself..if your stepping up from EB to URB YOU NEED A TEACHER!!!!

Yes I adore the sound of an URB but for some (or most) of us its just not practical to try and haul an URB to gigs especially if your gigging 5 nights a week..hell I cant get a fullsize URB to fit in my car... add to that the necessity of having to fit a pickup system and then an impedence matching device (if your di'ing to a rig) and quite frankily its a pain in the ass.

Here the EUB comes in, yes it dosent sound like a URB but it "approximates" the sound and it looks weird enough for punters to notice it also ITS PORTABLE.

Then again remember I gig in a country that's not particularly renowned for its "jazz scene" ;) hell I've done gigs with my NS and the punters didnt even know what the hell kinda instrument it was :D

Isn't the whole point to get "elitist gigs?"
:D

Unfortunately, in the big jazz cities in the US (NYC, Chicago, some would mention a west coast town or two,) the acoustic upright is the ONLY bass cats want on a jazz gig.

Wish it were different- I'd personally love to bring just an EB to half of my gigs...

Whoa!!! this is Heavey Mark ... thanks!!! I guess in all honesty, I am going to have to pick up a Double Bass! I am a Huge fan of Stanley Clarke (return to forever days and prior) and a host of others Most notably Brian Bromberg, Charnett Moffett, Miroslav Vitous and a few ... well ... a lot others. Where do I start on my quest to get the upright. I actually study now out of Dr. Mark Mortons Miraculous fingering for the Double Bass and just transcribe everything to fit the fretless, I have his Miraculous Arpeggios fingerings and His Torturous Excercises ... I also work out of the Simandl Book ... so ... I guess all I need now is the Double bass! Have no idea how Iam going to carry this thing around the City of New York!:crying: :(

Attenergy-

Just FYI, the current issue of Jazz Improv has a long and excellent interview with Stanley Clarke. The Return to Forever period is discussed throughout the conversation. I found the interview very interesting.

DON"T BUY AN ELECTRIC UPRIGHT TIL YOU HAVE A GOOD ACOUSTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The EUB is a secondary instrument, and alot of people will give you bad vibes if you bring it to their gig. Also, think about how wonderful it will be to get together and play music acoustically with your friends once you have a nice upright. Just like people did since the dawn of time, til amps came out in the middle of the last century.

Acoustic music trumps all.

Very well put...only thing I disagree on is that Acoustic music comment. I do believe that electric music has its place too...but very well spoken!

My Good People of the Bass Forum,

I am a beginner (6mos) and chose the fretless bass as my weapon of choice ... this weekend I was in Sam Ash Bass shop and saw a NS Design 5 String electric upright ... I want to purchase it. My Question is, being a "newbie", do you guys think it is to monumental of a task to try to learn the both of these instruments at one time?!?! Should I become more proficient with the fretless I have first before moving on to the upright?!? Or would I grow slower but consistent if I work on both of them everyday?!?! :(

What would you guys do?!?!:eek:

I've been playing upright for 14 years and electric for 16 years. I have a degree in both...and play both all the time on pro gigs locally.

If you were my student, I would have recommended starting on 4-string fretted bass guitar before going to a fretless... Jaco Pastorius learned to play fretless in tune by learning to keep his fingers close to frets on a fretted bass, which is why he was in tune when he ripped the frets out. If you're a beginner, chances are you haven't developed your ear, so fretless right at first is not a great idea--however, if you find a fantastic teacher who also plays fretless, I believe it can be done.

Upright, cannot be learned first on EUB--that's a very bad idea. Although there's a chance you'll succeed with the fretless, EUB is not the way to go for your first upright. Remember the history of the instrument. The bass was first used in orchestras, then later jazz groups, bluegrass, and so on. EUB spawned from a need to have a louder version. You are doing yourself a major disservice by starting on EUB...go buy or rent a real acoustic first and take some lessons.;)

I also worked for Sam Ash for a while. The EUBs they sell are poorly made, so you'd be better to wait until you can afford a good bass....and after you've had some training on acoustic.:ninja:

That's my two cents.:hiding:

My Good People of the Bass Forum,

I am a beginner (6mos) and chose the fretless bass as my weapon of choice ... this weekend I was in Sam Ash Bass shop and saw a NS Design 5 String electric upright ... I want to purchase it. My Question is, being a "newbie", do you guys think it is to monumental of a task to try to learn the both of these instruments at one time?!?! Should I become more proficient with the fretless I have first before moving on to the upright?!? Or would I grow slower but consistent if I work on both of them everyday?!?! :(

What would you guys do?!?!:eek:

For the money you would drop on an NS EUB (money NOT well spent), you can get a hybrid DB. Do that instead.