?

Must...resist urge...to give into clichéd terms.

I thought pocket = groove + pulse^2

NO. You have to have a "ONE"
On the 1 please

+1. A big, big "NO" on that one.

one is assumed dead without a pulse

what are you even asking?

lmao

Yes, of course.

''Cause I got one hand in my pocket..."

I think they co-exist but are separate entities. Different dimensions.

Example-I just saw Wilco last week and walked out in awe of their drummer. I remarked to my friends that he played like an orchestral drummer as opposed to a groove/R+R thing. He kept beautifully perfect time with a pulse, exact but also flowing, rolling steady like waves on a beach. No familiar 'pocket' to be locked into, in and out of the strict 'groove'. But always the source of what the rest of the band was doing. That guy is a force of nature.

this is confusing....


the answer must be Carrots.

Of course you can have groove & pocket without a pulse. Maybe :confused: I never thought of it before.
I like playing sometimes without a metronone or beat. Seems to groove to me

Yes, a bass player can setup his own groove and then get in the pocket of that. That said, it is much easier to hear a pocket groove when there is a steady pulse.

It can, but it feels really bad to play.

Ever hear listen to Manic Depression?

Ordered chaos.

Jaquo, I love these threads that make people think

Ever hear listen to Manic Depression?

Ordered chaos.

Jaquo, I love these threads that make people think
Hendrix's 'Manic Depression'? There's a pulse there, Its just a long wave.:D

I find this thread discriminatory to zombie bass players world wide.

Do you Jauqo have any particular songs on your mind that made you ask this? My immediate answer on your question is no. However, if there is an intentional speed-up from a slow to fast tempo spanning over more than a few bars, the transition can groove too.

Do you Jauqo have any particular songs on your mind that made you ask this? My immediate answer on your question is no.

No particular song. I asked the original question based off of my observation of what I've been noticing with bass players in the last 15 years or so in regards to grooving or simply tightly holding the music together.

They really don't have an idea of what their role really is.

Years ago bass players didn't just groove,they had a concept and chose to sound like themselves. It really was all about keeping things tight but sounding like themselves.

Does these groovers sound like each other?

James Jamerson
Chuck Rainey
Wilbur Bascomb
Duck Dunn
Bernard Odum
Bob Babbitt
Bootsy Collins
Jimmy Johnson
Anthony Jackson
Mark Adams
Tommy Cogbill
Jerry Jemmott

if intelligent drummers exist (as rare as they are), anything's possible...

if intelligent drummers exist (as rare as they are), anything's possible...

oohh what a statement...I find it quite offensive, and completely off topic.

Hendrix's 'Manic Depression'? There's a pulse there, Its just a long wave.:D

I know it doesn't happen very often now---but there are these things called "time signatures". Most stuff nowdays is 4/4 time. Manic depression is in 3/4.(very rare in rock music), but has a definate puls.

oohh what a statement...I find it quite offensive, and completely off topic.Off topic maybe........but I agree! A good percentage of drummers just don't have a clue which makes it harder on us bassists!

Now back on topic. I think the newest crop of modern bassists just aren't satisfied by just holding down the groove anymore. We've resorted to focusing more on soloing, being gear snobs and pimping out our instruments than being a 'musician' and team player in an ensemble setting. Let's get back to focusing on doing what it takes to make the 'song' sound good and not how 'you' sound because basically, those bar/club patrons who pay to hear some entertainment don't give a rats @$$ whether you can play a triplet slap lick!

To answer the question.....no.

Off topic maybe........but I agree! A good percentage of drummers just don't have a clue which makes it harder on us bassists!

Change "drummers" to "musicians" (including bass players) and I'd agree with you. Though I doubt it's a matter of intelligence, more likely a matter of musical maturity.


Now back on topic. I think the newest crop of modern bassists just aren't satisfied by just holding down the groove anymore. We've resorted to focusing more on soloing, being gear snobs and pimping out our instruments than being a 'musician' and team player in an ensemble setting. Let's get back to focusing on doing what it takes to make the 'song' sound good and not how 'you' sound because basically, those bar/club patrons who pay to hear some entertainment don't give a rats @$$ whether you can play a triplet slap lick!

I'm getting more gigs than ever because apparently more bassplayers are clueless than ever.

Off topic maybe........but I agree! A good percentage of drummers just don't have a clue which makes it harder on us bassists!

Now back on topic. I think the newest crop of modern bassists just aren't satisfied by just holding down the groove anymore. We've resorted to focusing more on soloing, being gear snobs and pimping out our instruments than being a 'musician' and team player in an ensemble setting. Let's get back to focusing on doing what it takes to make the 'song' sound good and not how 'you' sound because basically, those bar/club patrons who pay to hear some entertainment don't give a rats @$$ whether you can play a triplet slap lick!

I agree with your entire post.

I'm getting more gigs than ever because apparently more bassplayers are clueless than ever.

:)

I asked the original question based off of my observation of what I've been noticing with bass players in the last 15 years or so in regards to grooving or simply tightly holding the music together.

They really don't have an idea of what their role really is.

Yeah, and I think that answers your other post about why modern bassists don't groove.

Looking at the state of bass today, there is so much emphasis on doing everything other than making the groove happen. I made that mistake myself in my earlier years, thinking that if I can play some correct notes in time, that's all there was to it. I had mastered the groove! Okay, now time to move onto something more productive - SLAP AND TAP SOLOS, BABY!!!

Oh, brother. :rollno:

Seriously, I know of no other instrumentalist category that goes so far out of its way to not be who they are. All these cats today want to sound like a horn or a guitar or what have you. Bass publications don't always help either, because it's all about this "bass god" mentality of "Oh, did you see this cat? His technique is AMAZING!! He can play ANYTHING!"

And that's not to say that these things don't yield positive results sometimes. It is perfectly valid to pursue advanced harmonic concepts and what have you to learn to solo or improve your understanding of music. But our priorities are pretty mixed up as a whole. It seems we're spending 95% of our time thinking about and practicing things we will use less than 5% of the time.

I feel it's kind of an ego thing. Bassists are the guys in the background, and we have this need to step out and get noticed. But the irony I've found is, the more you push all that aside and serve the song you're playing, the more you'll be noticed as a great bassist. Or at least the more people will notice the music sounds better, whether they connect that to you or not. Sure, you might get noticed playing your sweep-picking arpeggios during a ballad, but this is not the kind of attention we want.

I am so in love with the ROLE of the bass now, because it really serves the music in amazing ways when done right. And you have to be aware of having a nice tone, having great time and feel, the length of your notes, the length of your rests, the phrasing of your lines (being able to contribute melodically here and there without losing the groove), adding simple rhythmic embellishments to your lines to give them motion, and overall playing something musical and creative that lifts the music to another level without getting in anyone's way.

And it starts with listening to a lot of great music and figuring out why it sounds as good as it does.

To answer the original question: yes, good bassists can groove all by themselves without a pulse.

I agree in part, although I don't see where the role of the bass differs so drastically from that of any other instrument, Every musician should be aware of the musical context, supportive playing, staying in the background , and taking solos when and where appropriate.
When I see those flashy bassists, often I don't get much enjoyment from it, but sometimes I really do. Same as with any other instrument playing a solo. In any case does it tell me that they have done their homework( most of the ones are as good as comping as they are at soloing).

isnt this pulse the same as groove?

I don't know about you guys but for me groove is something that...errr...pulsates? It sort of gives you a certain kick when you get into it. It's kinda similar to pringles for me. Once i get in it, i can't get out even after the song is finished :smug:

I'd like to add that there is a huge faction of musicians who never take the time to listen to other styles and cultures of music. I think this is hugely important for a developing musician. Not only do you need to know your instrument, you need to be as versatile a musician as you can. Learn not only how to groove but also know nuances and when to use them. Loud and flashy is not the end all to bass! Let's get back to groovin'!

There's a question in there...
how do you define the term "groove" ?
I am genuinly interested, as my personal perception of the term has changed over the years.
It becomes harder and harder to explain.

Unless you define what you believe groove, pocket and pulse to be your question is both meaningless and has no answer.

Unless you define what you believe groove, pocket and pulse to be your question is both meaningless and has no answer.

Are you saying my question is meaningless unless I provide the answer too??

As far as my perception goes ,groove, pulse and pocket are not the same thing...for starters.

yeah, it's called a crab groove

As far as my perception goes ,groove, pulse and pocket are not the same thing...for starters.That was not the question!

Can the pocket and groove exist with out a pulse?

That was not the question!

Had you read the entire thread, just wondering if you have, as you would have seen my answer to the original question.
In the post you are answering to, I was answering a question, or statement, rather( admittedly, not quite answering , but at least starting to...) put
to me in the post just preceding the one you are quoting from. You read it? :)

Are you saying my question is meaningless unless I provide the answer too??

As far as my perception goes ,groove, pulse and pocket are not the same thing...for starters.

No my post was aimed at the original poster.

No my post was aimed at the original poster.

AAhh, I see!
Sorry :)

meaningless and has no answer.

That's funny :)

meaningless and has no answer.

That's funny :)

Emoticon all you want you know its true.

Done with this thread

Emoticon all you want you know its true.

Done with this thread

:)

:bassist:Yeah, and I think that answers your other post about why modern bassists don't groove.

Looking at the state of bass today, there is so much emphasis on doing everything other than making the groove happen. I made that mistake myself in my earlier years, thinking that if I can play some correct notes in time, that's all there was to it. I had mastered the groove! Okay, now time to move onto something more productive - SLAP AND TAP SOLOS, BABY!!!

Oh, brother. :rollno:

Seriously, I know of no other instrumentalist category that goes so far out of its way to not be who they are. All these cats today want to sound like a horn or a guitar or what have you. Bass publications don't always help either, because it's all about this "bass god" mentality of "Oh, did you see this cat? His technique is AMAZING!! He can play ANYTHING!"

And that's not to say that these things don't yield positive results sometimes. It is perfectly valid to pursue advanced harmonic concepts and what have you to learn to solo or improve your understanding of music. But our priorities are pretty mixed up as a whole. It seems we're spending 95% of our time thinking about and practicing things we will use less than 5% of the time.

I feel it's kind of an ego thing. Bassists are the guys in the background, and we have this need to step out and get noticed. But the irony I've found is, the more you push all that aside and serve the song you're playing, the more you'll be noticed as a great bassist. Or at least the more people will notice the music sounds better, whether they connect that to you or not. Sure, you might get noticed playing your sweep-picking arpeggios during a ballad, but this is not the kind of attention we want.

I am so in love with the ROLE of the bass now, because it really serves the music in amazing ways when done right. And you have to be aware of having a nice tone, having great time and feel, the length of your notes, the length of your rests, the phrasing of your lines (being able to contribute melodically here and there without losing the groove), adding simple rhythmic embellishments to your lines to give them motion, and overall playing something musical and creative that lifts the music to another level without getting in anyone's way.

And it starts with listening to a lot of great music and figuring out why it sounds as good as it does.

To answer the original question: yes, good bassists can groove all by themselves without a pulse.

what he said...:bassist:

Just because slap and tap bass solos tend not to have groove to them, doesn't mean that they can't groove.

Unless you define what you believe groove, pocket and pulse to be your question is both meaningless and has no answer.
Groove= The overall cohesive flow of a song
pocket=The 'lock-in' between bass and drums
pulse=The beat
How's that?:D

I like those definitions-- simple, universal to my way of thinking, and as far as I'm concerned accurate in any conservatory one may study-- really, I don't think this has to be so hard either.

Only when I play!

Groove= The overall cohesive flow of a song
pocket=The 'lock-in' between bass and drums
pulse=The beat
How's that?:D

Yup
uh huh
for sure

now for my 5 cents worth ..
when I was first learning bass YEEEEARS ago .. I was told that I was like the left hand on the piano not the right ..
so play what the left plays .. and I did ..

and then I was told .. its not the notes you play its the notes you don't play .. (completely confused the hell out of me at the time ) but after years of playing I realised that your never gonna get a groove if you are thumping out notes like a machine gun .. and really .. the less notes you play the more they mean ? I think so anyway

another great thing I always remember is a producer I once worked with saying after his first listen through a demo take.. I don't remember the bass playing at all so it must have been good


if you wanna play bebop sax then play be bop sax just don't play it on a bass in the middle of my song !!! hehe

cheers
Paul

My opinion? Yes of course.

Everything and anything is possible if the subject is music.

Just because slap and tap bass solos tend not to have groove to them, doesn't mean that they can't groove.True. But why force it when it doesn't belong?! Many time this is the case!

I know a cat who can slap his @$$ off but the minute he switches to fingerstyle, all sense of groove and pocket are lost!

Can the pocket and groove exist with out a pulse? Absolute yes but only if you divorce yourself from the typical western music mindset.

Just because slap and tap bass solos tend not to have groove to them, doesn't mean that they can't groove.

Greatly dis-agree with this comment, (:p), slap is always grooving, good slapping is groove!!! and tap can groove pretty damn sweetly too, it just usually isn't used for that purpose but it most definately can if done tastefully, however sometimes you can be left wondering "why don't you just get a guitar, you're not a musician, you're an athelete".

my $0.02

(but in answer to the orignial question) i wouldn't think so, as i've always thought of a groove as somehting that defines elements of the pulse.

I dunno Jauqo; my playing stinks, does that make me funky? LOL!

I dunno Jauqo; my playing stinks, does that make me funky? LOL!

Yes and it gives your playing more grit :)