I've been playing bass now for just over 15 years (wow, has it been THAT long?) and over the course of the past 10 or so I've gotten deeper and deeper into improv based music as well as the full exploration of ideas when playing a song.

I play in a band with a guitarist and drummer who also follow these kinds of guidelines and we've always tried to play our songs different every time we play and allow them to open up into a new soundscape or exploration each time we play them (yes, we are a jam band). When things work out, it is amazing and I find myself shocked at the music we make...but when it doesn't click we sound lost and aimless. We've taken all sorts of approaches to try and refresh ourselves and our sound. whether it be adding in new musicians, taking an extended break, or abandoning all of our material and starting with a fresh slate...these ideas seem to fizzle out quickly and we become bored or stuck in a rut.

tonight we tried something different. the drummer suggested working on repetitive patterns and grooves allowing one person to 'tell a story' while the others focus on support/anchoring a groove. the exercise proved to be extremely pleasant and really breathed new life into the band. it also proved to be extremely challenging. repeating a groove without even tossing a fill at the end or a passing tone forced me to concentrate on repetitiveness. i haven't played a repetitive groove for more than 12 bars or so in years and am having trouble restraining myself when i play.

i feel very committed to this concept and plan to work out solid basslines for all of our tunes, but was curious if anyone else can relate to this problem? is there anything you
did to help teach yourself restraint? i've been thinking about focusing on learning lots of motown (which does incorporate fills...is still a slave to the groove and the bassline).

Listen to popular music? Listen to what your band mate is playing. I mean, *really* listen to him. Appreciate what he's doing and really take time to hear it from a spectator point of view and try to enjoy the performance as much as possible.

I have come to enjoy playing simple, repetitive patterns on the bass.

The reason is that the focus I would otherwise attend to note choice and creativity I offer to note placement, my attack/decay, feel, etc.

I have found this to be an art unto itself. At times, I feel I am "playing" these non-note choice elements of music with such authority and conviction that I get the same rush I get from playing "normally" and my brain temporarily forgets that I've played the same three notes over and over again.

When I play in this manner, I consider it a golden opportunity to develop my sound, feel, ability to focus, the accuracy of my time-anchoring abilities, etc.

Specifically I think the practice time on note attack/decay is invaluable and most of us are probably very weak at this.

Also I think it is important to ask why we consider this manner of playing to require restraint.

Do we feel constricted because we are overflowing with brilliant ideas and this is our only conceivable outlet for them?

Or is it because we have a compulsive need to noodle?

Or is it because we don't realize that we can play the non-note choice elements of music as well as the more melodic or creative aspects?

Maybe it's just habit.

I would have to venture to say that this feeling of being restricted is a good avenue to enlightenment about playing. We discover music in a new way when we play it differently. See what lessons you can learn from ostinato playing that will boost your usual style.

Just my two cents. :)

IMHO true creativity comes from working within boundaries.

I play a very "restrained" style, in that I try to play within the groove completely...the challenge in this style is to "keep things interesting" by only changing a note or two from verse to verse or chorus to chorus...

I listen to other bassists a lot and the thing that turns me off more than anything is "hot dogging".

many passages only need one or two approach notes not 18 or 20...

I find the same goes for drumming...

now piano players, IMO, they can do anything they damn well please...nothing like a piano player who can go to Florida, pick up a box of Dominican cigars, stop off at the supermarket, walk the dog, feed the fish, and cook a 7 course meal all in the same song ;)

Nobody can teach you restraint. Either you restrain yourself or you don't. When it's your turn to go off, go to town. And when it's not, give your bandmates the respect you want when you go off by being supportive and not step on what they're doing. And if you don't, then be prepared to make the music sound "lost and aimless," as you put it.

It's all about respect. If you want the respect of your bandmates not stepping on your solos, respect them as well and don't step on theirs.

is there anything you did to help teach yourself restraint?
I play in two bands-
One is a New Country parody band...all about restraint & playing a part. This gig also helps me focus on note duration.
The other band is 'anything goes'...while attempting to keep it grooving.

Back in my day, playing along with Pop records hours on end helped with restraint &, I guess, taste?


i've been thinking about focusing on learning lots of motown (which does incorporate fills...is still a slave to the groove and the bassline).
"Restraint" is not the 1st word/concept I think of whenever I hear Jamerson.
Some of the non-Jamerson stuff (e.g. "Tears Of A Clown")? Maybe.
Stax (w/ Duck Dunn) is more on the 'restraint' side of the house, IMO.

Everything so far is valid but I would take issue with the idea that restraint can't be taught. Listen to some of Miles Davis stuff. He was a master of restaint and the use of space. The link below is a black and white performance of So What. Just listen to how Paul Chambers keeps that solid groove going behind everyone. Hear the difference in styles of Davis on trumpet and John Coltrain on sax. Coltrain could be a very busy player against Davis' holding back and not playing so many notes. Both are valid but used in the right place can really lift a song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4FAKRpUCYY&mode=related&search=

johncg's post x2. I love ostinato...even simple ones are challenging when you focus on the elements you mention.

The thing that reminds me of the value of restraint is listening to band rehearsal tapes: I almost invariably like the takes best where I least notice my own playing, and those are the ones where I'm being the most spare with fills and rhythmic change-ups.

all great stuff here and i'm loving this discussion. i think johncg hit it on the head though. during the exercise we tried AS A BAND i found myself paying closer attention to the articulation and duration of my notes. i found that i was letting a hole note ring out for the full time as opposed to playing the note and then using synopated mutes and passing tones to get to the next chord.

listening has NEVER been a problem...unless you look at it that we are too attentive to each others musical moves. as a band, our thing has always been the evolution of music by picking and choosing the things that we hear each other doing and following those spontaneous ideas. unfortunately, we've fallen into a rut where we overdo this. as soon as someone throws out an interesting motif, the others are on top of it to the point that we don't allow and idea to sit and stew around. we did this exercise trying to keep in mind the trance of the backing music while another 'tells a story' with a solo allowing the soloist to throw out ideas without having others follow on those ideas. so, in this case...restraint is more of the ability to be repetitive and not feel the need to adjust to the changes around you.

the guys i play with are all leaders (including myself) and we all have the ability to steer a jam and follow, so the problem arises when you have too many cooks in the kitchen. for us restraint was all about allowing one person (or in some cases, no one) to cook.

i guess, early on, i was always blown away by bassists like jaco and phil lesh who could dance over chord changes creating interesting grooves while still serving the song and my playing started to gravitate towards that style.

after doing the exercise, we all sat around a while and talked about how it felt and how it sounded. we all agreed that it was extremely difficult for us to restrain from improving every moment (not necessarily being flashy). we also discussed how repetition doesn't necessarily need to be boring or dull parts, but just consistent. try to think of the drunk guy in the bar hanging on that groove in a trance.

for me, i feel like that rehearsal was a turning point in my playing and i hope to continue to focus my efforts on sticking to a groove for more than 4 bars before altering it in any way (which is my main tragic flaw as a player).

For years I always focussed on what my left hand was doing when I played. About 5 years ago, I had an epiphany started paying more attention to what I was doing with my right hand instead. Rather than trying to pull of fast licks with my left, I concentrate on playing in TIME. I've always had good relationships musically with drummers, but these days, the groove is just so freaking tight and fat! It really isn't about speed or technical chops, it's all about getting into TIME. We are a rhythm section and we consciously try to set a stage large enough for the guitar player and singer to do Hamlet on. I love it!

I went from playing in a jam band for 3 years to playing in a pop rock band. Big adjustment. I understand what you are saying. I find
myself constantly haveing to restrain myself while I play. I find that I have now created two very different kinds of head space for these two opposing styles. In a jam I am open minded I hear things and play off of them and constantly change my approach to the groove. While in the pop band I have written set parts and my focus is more on playing those parts as perfectly as I possibly can.

all great stuff here and i'm loving this discussion. i think johncg hit it on the head though. during the exercise we tried AS A BAND i found myself paying closer attention to the articulation and duration of my notes. i found that i was letting a hole note ring out for the full time as opposed to playing the note and then using synopated mutes and passing tones to get to the next chord.

listening has NEVER been a problem...unless you look at it that we are too attentive to each others musical moves. as a band, our thing has always been the evolution of music by picking and choosing the things that we hear each other doing and following those spontaneous ideas. unfortunately, we've fallen into a rut where we overdo this. as soon as someone throws out an interesting motif, the others are on top of it to the point that we don't allow and idea to sit and stew around. we did this exercise trying to keep in mind the trance of the backing music while another 'tells a story' with a solo allowing the soloist to throw out ideas without having others follow on those ideas. so, in this case...restraint is more of the ability to be repetitive and not feel the need to adjust to the changes around you.

the guys i play with are all leaders (including myself) and we all have the ability to steer a jam and follow, so the problem arises when you have too many cooks in the kitchen. for us restraint was all about allowing one person (or in some cases, no one) to cook.

i guess, early on, i was always blown away by bassists like jaco and phil lesh who could dance over chord changes creating interesting grooves while still serving the song and my playing started to gravitate towards that style.

after doing the exercise, we all sat around a while and talked about how it felt and how it sounded. we all agreed that it was extremely difficult for us to restrain from improving every moment (not necessarily being flashy). we also discussed how repetition doesn't necessarily need to be boring or dull parts, but just consistent. try to think of the drunk guy in the bar hanging on that groove in a trance.

for me, i feel like that rehearsal was a turning point in my playing and i hope to continue to focus my efforts on sticking to a groove for more than 4 bars before altering it in any way (which is my main tragic flaw as a player).

It sounds like you guys are really getting deep into the music. That's inspiring to hear.

I am very blown away by four guys lately: Aston Barret (Bob Marley's bassist), Josh Werner (Matisyahu/Roots Tonic bassist), Robbie Shakespeare (of the famous dub/reggae duo, Sly and Robbie), and George Porter of The Meters.

I am continually amazed at how these guys can play basslines a beginner could hack in a way that only the most advanced musicians can approach. What I have sussed it out as is that many bassists (Chuck Rainey is another big one that comes to mind!) who are very talented and gifted simply focus their prodigious intellects and spirits on the groove.

I love this because it is a selfless pursuit. Last fall I saw Werner with Matisyahu in Toronto and it was a life changing experience for me. I'm sure very few people left the venue that day having witnessed the explosive virtuousity of Matis, guitarist Aaron Dugan, and drummer Jonah David thinking about what a badass Josh Werner was on the bass. But, god almighty, he was. Somehow he had achieved something just as deep and powerful as his chopsmeister cronies playing simple patterns all night long. I love the idea of creating something magnificent, beautiful, and intellectually deep without ever halting even a moment to think of drawing attention to oneself.

That isn't to say that I don't also adore the great bassists who have pushed the envelope of technique on their instruments. Scott La Faro and Mingus, through Pastorius and Wooten, and countless others have done this and I love their music. But even these guys clearly understood the power and beauty of grooving. Everything else was merely the frosting on top.

The main thing I've been practicing lately is this intangiable "groove" aspect. I'll kind of just play one idea and not play another until the previous idea dictates it to me. I let the music "play me" and watch the creative process unfurl naturally. This is lending a level of authority and conviction to my tone and feel that I've never had before and which is the one thing ALL the greats have on their given instruments.

If nothing else, this experience ought to improve your time. Many bassists think of playing ostinato as slavery. They couldn't be more wrong. When you play a repeated line, you are put in touch with the depth of time and the corresponding depth of the beat. When you play this stuff, you have to commit: Are you going to play ahead of the beat, in the middle, behind? And then you have to seriously lock in with the drummer. In the best situation, the drummer owns the beat. Unfortunately, this is not always the case, so sometimes you have to own it. This reduces your rhythmic options, but by golly it frees up your melodic options.

Etc.



Of course, I exaggerate for effect. Sometimes it's right to play square on the one for the verse, and behind on the chorus. Or whatever.

John,

That Josh Werner is amazing. I checked his bio after I got the Live at Stubbs CD because I couldn't believe how great he was. Turns out he also has an accomplished academic background in bass. I love the Roots Tonic CD too...grooves like a lot of great dub.

We just upgraded our drummer (previous yahoo would rather spend time waiting all night at Best Buy than playing music...but that's another story).

Anyway, something I was trying the other night-
During the guitarist's solo, I would only play something within the 1st 2 beats of a bar so the drummer could have beats 3 & 4 all to himself. Maybe something like this-
l1_&_2e_a________l_e&_2_&a________l1e&_2e&_________l__&__e_a_________l

During the sax solo, I inverted it so that I was in the 2nd half of the bar-
l________3_&_4e_al_________e&_4_&al________3e&_4e&_l__________&__e_al

Another thing to try is moving a figure around the bar (displacement)-
l1e&a2___________L__&a2e&_________l____2e&a3_______l1e&a2___________l

...and one more-
I may try to lock myself into a Latin-esque Clave thing
l1_&a2ea_3e_a4_&_l
This is played for x-amount of bars.

Then, if I'm feeling adventurous-
l1_&a2ea_3e_a4_l Essentially dropping the last 1/8th note (the above 4/4 figure becomes 7/8)...hopefully, not too big a train wreck.

I guess my point is you can be 'repetitive' with a plan & not necessarily sound 'aimless'?
Just food-for-thought.

Red Hot Chili peppers also did this kind of stuff ;), They just play whatever they felt like doing, but in scale of the next song they gonna play ;)

Limp Bizkit also did sometimes, but they only have drums and abit of bass going on and a bit of scratch and echoing guitar, while the singer(actually rapper) talk to the audience

Restraint is good!

When you are building a solo, the worst thing you can do is play a lick at the beginning of it, unless you got a truck load of chops to develop even more interesting solo ideas.

Think about music as a story- all the good ones start simple, and increase in complexity and depth.

In a clinic with the great John Aebercrombie years ago, I watched him play the baddest sh*t only blowing pairs of notes. As mentioned above, limitations of the right sort can really help you grow, especially as an improviser.

The next time you have a big solo that you're nervous about, try playing the simplest and most honest phrase you can imagine. Now play question and answer with your next phrases- making them musically connected and HONEST. Soon you'll be blowing intricate ideas all over the place, but never without honesty and initial simplicity, please.

less is more... last jam I was in, I just sat back and worked on serving a varying simple pattern that the guys could work on top of... the pattern was simple, but I varied parts of it like dropping notes out for four bars or changing the voicing of the chord I was riffing on... (using higher chord tones for a few bars or using an inversion instead)

This all speaks to my musical heart. Werner is definitely one of my mentors as are the other reggae bassists mentioned. I play mostly blues/rock and I love bringing the space/groove sensibility to that.

In one of my bands, the drummer is caught up in a lot shcool work presently and often can't come to practice. It's far less fun on those nights when I have to be the one "filling in" for an absent drummer. When he's there I get a lot more out of, and therrefore put a lot more into, feeling the groove and hitting notes and space with equal grace. (Hey that ryhmes! I gotta' right that down)

I'm so happy to hear other bassists singing Werner's praises. I never seem to hear anybody talk about him, yet I just can't get over how good he is. The Roots Tonic disc and Live at Stubb's are simply mindblowing, some of the best bass playing I've ever heard.

A lot of good ideas are being expressed here. I like what you were saying JimK, this is an idea I've used a bit and would like to explore more.

I think ChicagoDoubler really nailed it too. A good solo should tell a story. In a setting where extended soloing takes place, I often try to start off very sparse with my accompanying and slowly build with the soloist. A teacher I had said that a good solo should be like a great big group orgasm!

Every situation is different. Everyone in the band can't call and response with the soloist at the same time, but occasionally I'll take the initiative to do that. Or sometimes just embellishing my part with some chromaticism/octaves, etc. can push the soloist to new heights.

Awesome thread! :bassist:

a classic case of restraint is what Sting did with the Police...it was brilliant, but simple...in fact, all 3 players practiced restraint, even Stewart Copeland who can really "get busy" if he so desired, but his playing was always tasteful and true to the music.

restraint is the best friend of a bass player... Once you have gone trough that, you can imrpove to other levels, really. There's no point in avoiding it, sooner or later you'll find yourself in the need of that restraint.

One of the things I like about the bass is the power. I think this is something that most guitar players don't understand when they play bass.

I was playing in a duo, acoustic guitar/singer and bass, and we played one rock song where during the verse all I played was a whole note per bar. It was a slower song and just holding that one note added a lot of power and depth to the song.

I felt that playing any more would have made the song less effective.