A discussion via IM with our buddy Cassanova has prompted me to be aware that the concept of "interval" is a topic which needs to be explained for at least some of our members. I will attempt to do so, as clearly and informatively as possible for my limited communication skills:

For our purposes, we will work with the key of C major, mainly because it has no sharps or flats to bother us (because in addition to being in possession of poor communication skills, I'm also lazy ;) ).

There are two important pieces of information when describing an interval: I call one the "quantity", or the rough distance between the 2 notes (which I will underline); the other I call "quality", the exact distance. Hopefully all this will make some sense to someone...



2nds:
minor2 BC, EF
major2 AB, CD, DE, FG, GA

3rds:
minor3 AC, BD, DF, EG
major3 CE, FA, GB

4ths:
perfect4 AD, BE, CF, DG, EA, GC
augmented4 FB

5ths:
diminished5 BF
perfect5 AE, CG, DA, EB, FC, GD

6ths:
minor6 AF, BG, EC
major6 CE, DB, FD, GE

7ths:
minor7 AG, BA, DC, ED, GF
major7 CB, FE

Octave
perfect oct. each note to the next appearance of that note (i.e. C to C1)

Now, a couple of things to notice:

In each "Quantity" group, there are 7 total pairs of notes, while the number of "Quality" varies.

Some "Qualities" are referred to as major/minor, some as perfect/augmented-diminished. There is a historical reason for this difference, which we will not go into here, as it's beyond the goal of this post. Just consider it like a theorem in mathematics, it just "is" for our present purposes.

I didn't specify the distance between each interval in whole/half step distances, but that information is simple enough to discover for yourself, and worth the effort to discover (i.e. B to C is a half step, C to B is five and one half steps).

Once you "know" a certain interval from this post, you "know" many others: An explaination - C to E is a major 3rd, then C to Eb is what? A minor 3rd. The same is true for C# to E, it's "smaller" than C to E, therefore it's a minor 3rd. Conversely, E to C is a minor 6th, then E to C# would be a major 6th.

I'm certain that this will bring as many questions to people as it will answers, and of course any additional input from other members would be greatly appreciated! If you don't get something, ask, and someone will pitch in to help out, based on past experience - either myself or someone else with as much or more knowledge in this field.

TOAST GARD,

Excellent post...I think that we (i.e. - clan TABEVIL) should make this part of a theory FAQ that stays either on the homepage or here in GI. HASBRO'S scale guide is a wonderful start, and this is a great addition.


The only thing I would add to this at all is that intervals are often easier to understand if you grasp the concept if intervallic inversion, which Gard alluded to in his post.

An inverted interval is simply an interval that is turned upside-down.

For instance, C down to B is a minor 2nd, while C up to B is a major 7th. These inverted intervals can be said to be in the same class, since they involve the same two notes.

An easy way to remember how intervals invert is to remember that all interval inversions add up to the number "9", and that all major or minor intervals flip-flop their quality when you invert them. For example, if we consider all the following intervals to be ascending, then;

C to B = Ma 7th
B to C = mi 2nd
7+2 = 9

C to Bb = mi 7th
Bb to C = Ma 2nd
7+2 = 9

C to A = Ma 6th
A to C = mi 3rd
6+3 = 9

C to Ab = mi 6th
Ab to C = Ma 3rd
6+3 = 9

C to G = Perfect 5th
G to C = Perfect 4th
5+4 = 9

C to Gb = diminished 5th
C to F# = augmented 4th
5+4 = 9

C to F = P 4th
F to C = P 5th
4+5 = 9

C to E = Ma 3rd
E to C = mi 6th
= 9

C to Eb = mi 3rd
Eb to C + Ma 6th
=9

C to D = Ma 2nd
D to C = mi 7th
=9

C to Db = mi 2nd
Db to C = Ma 7th
= 9

and hypothetically,
C to C = unison (1)
C to C = 8ve (8)
8 + 1 = 9


Notice that perfect intervals invert to perfect intervals, Major intervals invert to minors, minors to majors, and Augmenteds invert to diminished and vice versa. Another interesting characteristic of inverted intervals is that they have the same psychological effect no matter which way they are inverted...octaves are always the most consonant, and mi2nd/Ma7th intervals are always the most dissonant (this has to do with the acoustical properties of the harmonic series, but that's a topic best saved for later). For this reason, I always think of the inverted intervals as being roughly the same, which cuts in half the number of categories to remember.

So, instead of thinking of 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, and 7ths, you can instead simplify to:

2nds/7ths
3rds/6ths
4ths/5ths


Hope that wasn't too confusing.

I for one think a FAQ sounds like a great idea! I know I'd learn a lot from it once I get the mechanics of my playing down.

I really hope you guys can find a way to put it all together!

btw - You guys have inspired me to start learning to read notation. I'm not so sure about sight reading pieces, but I'd at least like to be able to read so I don't have to use tAbZ anymore. So what do you think -- libster a good place to start?

Excellent post, Gard.

It seems our young apprentice is making us all think. Through PM, I've been working with him on analyzing diatonic chords to see the relationships between chords and scales. He'll be a jedi in no time.

Talkbass Rocks!

BLISS McCHERYL -

Thanks for the compliment, and for pointing out the "Magic 9" rule. I knew I could count on the rest of CLAN TABEVIL (I was never made an official member, but...well, I am a member, aren't i? :confused: ) to pitch in and improve things. :D

SMACKPLAN -

It was precisely your suggestion of analyzing the diatonic chords that led to this post, so you're as responsible for it as anyone (IT'S ALL JON'S FAULT, IT'S ALL JON'S FAULT!!!! ;) ).

MADEHIM FLEX -

A theory FAQ would be an excellent idea, I do believe SPAZZFLO's brilliant explaination of scales/modes is already posted somewhere in that vein. We could gather that up, add to it my primer on the Circle of 5ths/4ths and the interval primer (with the addition of BLISS's information) and create some good basic theory instruction.

A suggestion should be made to FEARLESS LEADER (aka Paul), hopefully it could be done fairly easily. Someone should also do a primer on reading standard notation, but I'm not sure how to do that so that it will work on the board (getting the staff, notes, etc to work with the format).

Thanks y'all....keep it comin'!!!

Good stuff, guys.
This interval talk reminds me of a Keller anecdote from my college daze.
Rather than looking/seeing & actually counting the interval, I was 'hearing it' & that's how I answered the professor...
Example: G to A#
I 'heard' that as a minor 3rd...so that's what I blurt out in class. Teacher says "No", I say "Yes"...back & forth, classmates sitting on their hands.
Damn, couldn't I SEE it's G-A(a 2nd) & not G-B(a 3rd)?!

alright here goes nothing.

Gard if Im reading you right on this. Then I get what your talking about. Minor 2nd, 3rds etc. Are 1/2 step lower than the majors. Making that the "quality" of the interval.

The quantity would also be 2 because thats aproximatly how how many notes between that and the root.

EX:
C-D major 2nd (quality is maj2nd) quantity is 2 because its also the 2nd degree in the scale?

If its a minor 2nd its a 1/2 step lower than the major 2nd, (quality) and its quantity would also be 2, do to its rough distance from the root?

am i in the ballpark here now or still way up in the nose bleed seats?



Im not sure if im right about that, so thats why Im asking.

by jove, he's got it!

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
TOAST GARD,

Excellent post...I think that we (i.e. - clan TABEVIL) should make this part of a theory FAQ that stays either on the homepage or here in GI. HASBRO'S scale guide is a wonderful start, and this is a great addition.


The only thing I would add to this at all is that intervals are often easier to understand if you grasp the concept if intervallic inversion, which Gard alluded to in his post.

An inverted interval is simply an interval that is turned upside-down.

For instance, C down to B is a minor 2nd, while C up to B is a major 7th. These inverted intervals can be said to be in the same class, since they involve the same two notes.

An easy way to remember how intervals invert is to remember that all interval inversions add up to the number "9", and that all major or minor intervals flip-flop their quality when you invert them. For example, if we consider all the following intervals to be ascending, then;

C to B = Ma 7th
B to C = mi 2nd
7+2 = 9

C to Bb = mi 7th
Bb to C = Ma 2nd
7+2 = 9

C to A = Ma 6th
A to C = mi 3rd
6+3 = 9

C to Ab = mi 6th
Ab to C = Ma 3rd
6+3 = 9

C to G = Perfect 5th
G to C = Perfect 4th
5+4 = 9

C to Gb = diminished 5th
C to F# = augmented 4th
5+4 = 9

C to F = P 4th
F to C = P 5th
4+5 = 9

C to E = Ma 3rd
E to C = mi 6th
= 9

C to Eb = mi 3rd
Eb to C + Ma 6th
=9

C to D = Ma 2nd
D to C = mi 7th
=9

C to Db = mi 2nd
Db to C = Ma 7th
= 9

and hypothetically,
C to C = unison (1)
C to C = 8ve (8)
8 + 1 = 9


Notice that perfect intervals invert to perfect intervals, Major intervals invert to minors, minors to majors, and Augmenteds invert to diminished and vice versa. Another interesting characteristic of inverted intervals is that they have the same psychological effect no matter which way they are inverted...octaves are always the most consonant, and mi2nd/Ma7th intervals are always the most dissonant (this has to do with the acoustical properties of the harmonic series, but that's a topic best saved for later). For this reason, I always think of the inverted intervals as being roughly the same, which cuts in half the number of categories to remember.

So, instead of thinking of 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, and 7ths, you can instead simplify to:

2nds/7ths
3rds/6ths
4ths/5ths


Hope that wasn't too confusing.

it was

but i just grabbed my bass and went over the scale. I see how the ma7 is B. So later when I have time, Ill go over it again and and figure out what the min 3rd is and then the maj 6th and so on.

I dont quite get the little 9 rule.

also my brother once told me and i think i read somewhere that every major has a relative minor. Is this what they were talking about? And how you go about figuring it out?

Originally posted by cassanova
Minor 2nd, 3rds etc. Are 1/2 step lower than the majors.

...and don't forget about the perfect intervals.
If you LOWER those a 1/2 step, they become diminished(ie, NOT "minor").
A '4th' can only be perfect, augmented(raised 1/2 step), or diminished(lowered 1/2 step).
A '5th' can only be perfect, augmented, or diminished.

2nds, 3rds, 6ths, & 7ths...
All can be major, minor, augmented, or diminished.

Each Major key has a 'relative minor' key...
Simply go DOWN a minor 3rd from the Major key's root(you know how this looks on yer bass' neck, right?)-
Example:
C Major = A minor
F Major = D minor

...or UP a minor 3rd from the minor key's root-
Example:
E minor = G major
C minor = Eb Major

D minor = ________?

A Major = ________?

Originally posted by JimK


Each Major key has a 'relative minor' key...
Simply go DOWN a minor 3rd from the Major key's root(you know how this looks on yer bass' neck, right?)-
Example:
C Major = A minor
F Major = D minor

...or UP a minor 3rd from the minor key's root-
Example:
E minor = G major
C minor = Eb Major

D minor = ________?

A Major = ________?

is it F and C?

No.
(Hint for the D minor: "F______?). Gotta be a little more specific.

A Major = ________
Play the A note @the 2nd fret/G-string; go down a minor 3rd...(Hint: It won't be a C note). ;)

Originally posted by Gard

SMACKPLAN -

It was precisely your suggestion of analyzing the diatonic chords that led to this post, so you're as responsible for it as anyone (IT'S ALL JON'S FAULT, IT'S ALL JON'S FAULT!!!! ;) ).

[/B]

I can't hide it any longer! I taught him the circle of 5ths through IM!!!!! :eek:

::runs for the distant hills of Castle TB hoping to find refuge there::

:)

BTW, I totally agree with a theory FAQ, excellent idea. Just my $0.02

Originally posted by Gard
[B][B]SMACKPLAN -

It was precisely your suggestion of analyzing the diatonic chords that led to this post, so you're as responsible for it as anyone (IT'S ALL JON'S FAULT, IT'S ALL JON'S FAULT!!!! ;) ).



Hey, with all the TaBz requests, it really nice to see someone interested in getting better as a musician, so if it's my fault I'm glad to be a part of it.

Originally posted by Pacman


Hey, with all the TaBz requests, it really nice to see someone interested in getting better as a musician, so if it's my fault I'm glad to be a part of it.

Just because it's your fault, doesn't mean I think it's a bad thing!!! :D

Originally posted by JimK
No.
(Hint for the D minor: "F______?). Gotta be a little more specific.

A Major = ________
Play the A note @the 2nd fret/G-string; go down a minor 3rd...(Hint: It won't be a C note). ;)

F major and F# minor.



Hey guys, does Fieldy know this crap? Cos if he does'nt then why the hell should I? :eek: ;) :D

I don't really consider myself a musician (I play more for fun than anything), but I'd still like to learn this stuff. It's a lot easier to create music with some knowledge behind you than it is by just randomly hitting notes. :)

Very good information, LARD, GETBLITZEDGERALD, SHAQMAN and BEN GAY!

With this, the mode help that Angus has been giving me and the Time thread, I'm learning a lot.

Now if we could just find some place for the TaBz posts.

PHLEGM TABEVIL

Hey, I need a tAbEViL name...


;) :D

I think I may be able to pick up on theory yet! I'm going to make a promise to stay away from tab and learn how to read notation as well.

I agree though, let's turn this into a theory forum. :cool:

Originally posted by embellisher
Very good information, LARD, GETBLITZEDGERALD, SHAQMAN and BEN GAY!

With this, the mode help that Angus has been giving me and the Time thread, I'm learning a lot.

Now if we could just find some place for the TaBz posts.

PHLEGM TABEVIL

Man, I find myself lamenting that I can't just call you on that time thread. Dave Weckl has a great way of explaining how to feel odd times, and I can relate that in speech, but not in type.... maybe you should call me sometime just so I can esplain it....

Originally posted by Gard
Hey, I need a tAbEViL name...


;) :D

Well, you can't really go wrong with TARD TABEVIL, can you? I mean, I know the first half of it has been used before, but maybe that's a sign from above.

Lesse, TaBeViL names so far:

BLINKY
CONK
TOFU
PHLEGM
DURRL
DAFFY
PUFF

Who am I leaving out? Thoughts, anyone?

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald


PUFF

Who am I leaving out? Thoughts, anyone?
PSST Over here, you forgot me. Pacman inducted me in one day in another thread when i was saying somthing bad aboout tabz. :D

I also wanna be a tab nazi...i just like the way that sounds, very militant and tough

*vaht iz zis? are zese tabz? eggzacute him a vunce!!!*

Originally posted by cassanova

PSST Over here, you forgot me. Pacman inducted me in one day in another thread when i was saying somthing bad aboout tabz. :D

I also wanna be a tab nazi...i just like the way that sounds, very militant and tough

*vaht iz zis? are zese tabz? eggzacute him a vunce!!!*

Yeah, he's in.


MAMA CASS TABEVIL :D

Originally posted by PACKMUD


Yeah, he's in.


MAMA CASS TABEVIL :D


BLINKY 182,

I was gonna suggest either that or VALENTINO TABEVIL if you didn't... MAMA CASS it is.

Mensch, ze clan iss growink stronkger Zeese dayss, nicht war? Soon, alles off ze forumss vill be unter our control!!! Yah!! Und zen soon - very soon - all off ze tabss vill be ELIMINATED!!!! VERBOTEN!!! KAPUT!!! HEIL BLINKY!!!!


Es ist gut to be Kommandant, nein? :D


Yoursss,

ADURRL HITMAN




(Heil BLINKY???)

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald


Well, you can't really go wrong with TARD TABEVIL, can you? I mean, I know the first half of it has been used before, but maybe that's a sign from above.

Lesse, TaBeViL names so far:

BLINKY
CONK
TOFU
PHLEGM
DURRL
DAFFY
PUFF

Who am I leaving out? Thoughts, anyone?

I graciously and humbly accept my new CLAN TABEVIL moniker! :D

TARD TABEVIL

Hmm...kinda rolls off the tounge, don't it? Plus, I've always appreciated alliteration :)

Keep going guys, this is huge info in a manner a simpleton like me can grasp!!!! I learned to sight read while playing trumpet, but theory has eluded me. The is a huge help. Thanks!!!!



Mike

Originally posted by Pacman


Yeah, he's in.


MAMA CASS TABEVIL :D

:D I feel so loved...you guys arethe best *sheds tear of joy*


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald


Mensch, ze clan iss growink stronkger Zeese dayss, nicht war? Soon, alles off ze forumss vill be unter our control!!! Yah!! Und zen soon - very soon - all off ze tabss vill be ELIMINATED!!!! VERBOTEN!!! KAPUT!!! [B]HEIL BLINKY!!!!


oh man, that craked me up really bad. especially this part

Und zen soon - very soon- all off ze tabss vill be ELIMINATED!!!!, VERBOTEN!!! KAPUT!!! HEIL BLINKY!!!

I really needed that, so thank you.

I know that:

I know that
TOFU = Jazzbo
DURRL = You

But who is?

BLINKY
CONK
PHLEGM
DAFFY
PUFF

I would ask to be in clan TABEVIL, but I'm in that in-between state where I hate tabs but can't yet read notation.

Gard, were you trying to do some alliteration there yourself? I thought it was only alliteration with consonant sounds, and doing the same with vowels was called assonance. Bah I don't know, I'm not an English/grammar champion.

Originally posted by cassanova



I know that:

I know that
TOFU = Jazzbo
DURRL = You

But who is?

BLINKY
CONK
PHLEGM
DAFFY
PUFF





MYDAWGROVAH,


BLINKY = Pacman
CONK = JT
PHLEGM = (phl)Embellisher
DAFFY = Supperduck
PUFF = Gruffpuppy (PUFFGRUBBY)

The justice league is looking pretty healthy these days, is it not? :D

I take a lot of pride in that BLINKY title. A LOT OF PRIDE I TELL YOU!!!

Originally posted by jazzbo
I take a lot of pride in that BLINKY title. A LOT OF PRIDE I TELL YOU!!!


[irish spring voice]

And I like it too :-)

[/irish spring voice]

Clyde works too :cool:

hey man - it was tough trying to remember the non "-inky" ghost. who was it that remembered anyway?

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald




MYDAWGROVAH,


BLINKY = Pacman
CONK = JT
PHLEGM = (phl)Embellisher
DAFFY = Supperduck
PUFF = Gruffpuppy (PUFFGRUBBY)

The justice league is looking pretty healthy these days, is it not? :D


What about me? the Mod needs a tabevil name too!!


Chris A.(who doesn't want to be left out.):rolleyes:

I just had my music mid term on this stuff today
heres the chart i use...

- m2 M2 m3 M3 P4 TriTone P5 m6 M6 m7 M7 P8
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C
Db Eb Gb Ab Bb

they increase by half steps and to find the interval you cant up from C
Ex. M3 up from Ab =
(M3 is 4 up from C)
(goto Ab and count up 4 and you get C)

so the answer is C

How this willhelp you as a bassist? im still trying to figure that out:confused: :) :confused:

damnit those didnt line up correctly... write it down on a piece of paper so the computer doesnt affect the way its lined up

I know this is a silly thing, but this might help some beginners (like me!) in being able to hear intervals:

Try to relate a song that uses a particular interval. (I got this from the bass book I'm using at my lesson). Here are a few examples:

1. Perfect 5ths: "Star Spangled Banner". E C# A. E to A is a perfect 5th.

2. Perfect 4ths: "Wedding March". A D D D. A to D is a perfect 4th.

3. Major 6th: "It Came Upon the Midnight Clear". A F# C# E D B A B A. A to F# is a major 6th.

The book points out to not only play the intervals, but to sing them aloud.

Here's one for a perfect 5th my teacher showed me: "Star Wars Theme" :D : D A G F# E D A. The first D to A is a perfect 5th.

Hope this helps in some way. Thanks Gard for all your interval info.

Be well,
Stephanie

PS: How does one become a member of CLAN TABEVIL? Hehe. :D Man, I'm proud of myself when my teacher tells me I can read music better than he can. :) (And he would be proud to be a member of the CLAN himself I'm sure. Don't mention TABZ around him!..hmm..of course he didn't mind when I had to tab a song out for my website all by myself...hey! ppl ask for them, what can I do?)

Along the lines of what Stephanie was saying, check out:

http://www.jazzbooks.com/jazzhandbook/22_interval_chart.pdf


You need Adobe Acrobat Reader for that file.

Originally posted by stephanie

PS: How does one become a member of CLAN TABEVIL? Hehe. :D Man, I'm proud of myself when my teacher tells me I can read music better than he can. :) (And he would be proud to be a member of the CLAN himself I'm sure. Don't mention TABZ around him!..hmm..of course he didn't mind when I had to tab a song out for my website all by myself...hey! ppl ask for them, what can I do?)

All you have to do is hold the belief that TABZ are far more destructive than constructive, and be willing to spread the word, even when that means that many people will think you're a jerk for doing so. And be prepared to be called an ELITIST early and often.

Based on what I've seen of your posts - most of which have thankfully been in General Instruction - I think you're about ready to join the family.


I hereby dub thee EPIPHANY TABEVIL. Now go ye forth to do some of EMPORER FU's nefarious bidding. May the force be with you, and metronomespeed. :)

Cool!!! We gotta lil' sister now!!! :D

Welcome to the family, EPIPHANY.

(gives EPIPHANY a big brotherly hug)

Any of them evil tabz dudes mess with you, let us know, we'll give 'em a dose of the CLAN TABEVIL SMACKDOWN ;)

TARD TABEVIL

Welcome to the family, EPIPHANY. Remember, it's like another kind of family - you can't just leave when it gets ugly - or we kneecap you :D

Originally posted by stephanie
Here's one for a perfect 5th my teacher showed me: "Star Wars Theme" :D : D A G F# E D A. The first D to A is a perfect 5th.

Tab for keyboard?:confused::D

My sister got a cheapo chord organ for Christmas in '78 or '79, and it had a lot of popular songs in it, including the Star Wars theme. It had a template that you put over the keyboard that assigned each key a number. To this day, when I think of the melody to the SW theme, I mentally go '8--12--11-10-9-15--12-11-10-9-15--12-11-10-11-9'.:D Old habits die hard, kinda like tab use.

FSCOTCHTAPE

Don't forget to give MISS SPRAY a Tabevil name before he has a hissy.;)(j/k, Chris)

PHLEGM TABEVIL

EDIT: Welcome to the Clan, EPIPHANY!

Woo Hoo, I've got another sis! *heavy italian accent on* Welcome to the family sis. *Accent Off*

If any of the other heathen tab dwellers give ya any problems, ya just call and like Tard said, we'll give um a helluva smack down.


QUOTE]Originally posted by Pacman
Welcome to the family, EPIPHANY. Remember, it's like another kind of family - you can't just leave when it gets ugly - or we kneecap you :D [/QUOTE]

ironicly enough, thats what we do to the demon seeds who preach the word of tabs. I really get off on that part of the job :eek:


Al la familia

Intervals are great. I have always thought of songs and notes in general in terms of intervals. I think that it has helped me have a better understanding of the way things work. Chords seem to make more sence, and are easy to learn different voiceings if you think in terms of intervals rather than just notes.

Originally posted by ChronicPain
Intervals are great. I have always thought of songs and notes in general in terms of intervals. I think that it has helped me have a better understanding of the way things work. Chords seem to make more sence, and are easy to learn different voiceings if you think in terms of intervals rather than just notes.

I totally understand what you mean. For part of my lesson, I had to memorize the quality of chords (Tonic to Leading Tone). So I had to know, for example, that the VII chord is a minor 3rd and a minor 3rd. So that would make it diminished. I am still a bit confused on some things listed about intervals in this thread and how some intervals are built, but patience is a virtue. :)

Another thing is the feeling of an interval. Does that make sense? If I play a perfect 5th, for example, say C to G, I pay attention to the space between those 2 notes. And then I'll play C to C octave. Totally different feeling. You wonder sometimes if the reason we find a certain tune catchy is because of listening to the space between the notes and not the notes themselves....yeah...I'm weird...sorry.... :D

Originally posted by GardCool!!! We gotta lil' sister now!!!

Welcome to the family, EPIPHANY.

(gives EPIPHANY a big brotherly hug)

Any of them evil tabz dudes mess with you, let us know, we'll give 'em a dose of the CLAN TABEVIL SMACKDOWN

TARD TABEVIL

Haha. Thanks guys for the warm welcome. :) I'm honored...and yet...a little frightened at the same time.

Cheers,
Stephanie
EPIPHANY TABEVIL :D

Originally posted by Chris A



What about me? the Mod needs a tabevil name too!!


Chris A.(who doesn't want to be left out.):rolleyes:


DOH! Can't believe I missed this post. Wow, that's a tough one....hmmm, we may have to take a vote on that one. The only thing that comes to mind - based on your signature - is ROLLEYES TABEVIL , but I dunno....

I think I need some more coffee. :cool:



EPIPHANY,

You should only be afraid of BODYTARD if he isn't on your side (in which case you should be very afraid). But seeing as how you just gained a bevy of big ugly brothers, I'm guessing that you may actually be safer now than ever before.

"Be ye not afraid; may ye now walk freely in the shadow of the valley of TaBcRaWlEr, and fear ye no man or beast....for the terrible wrath of TARD shall be unleashed on any who may attempt to harm thee, and that right early. "






Right. :rolleyes: I'll be seeing about that coffee now.....

Originally posted by DURRL
The only thing I would add to this at all is that intervals are often easier to understand if you grasp the concept if intervallic inversion, which Gard alluded to in his post.

An inverted interval is simply an interval that is turned upside-down.

For instance, C down to B is a minor 2nd, while C up to B is a major 7th. These inverted intervals can be said to be in the same class, since they involve the same two notes.

An easy way to remember how intervals invert is to remember that all interval inversions add up to the number "9", and that all major or minor intervals flip-flop their quality when you invert them. For example, if we consider all the following intervals to be ascending, then;

C to B = Ma 7th
B to C = mi 2nd
7+2 = 9

C to Bb = mi 7th
Bb to C = Ma 2nd
7+2 = 9

C to A = Ma 6th
A to C = mi 3rd
6+3 = 9

C to Ab = mi 6th
Ab to C = Ma 3rd
6+3 = 9

C to G = Perfect 5th
G to C = Perfect 4th
5+4 = 9

C to Gb = diminished 5th
C to F# = augmented 4th
5+4 = 9

C to F = P 4th
F to C = P 5th
4+5 = 9

C to E = Ma 3rd
E to C = mi 6th
= 9

C to Eb = mi 3rd
Eb to C + Ma 6th
=9

C to D = Ma 2nd
D to C = mi 7th
=9

C to Db = mi 2nd
Db to C = Ma 7th
= 9

and hypothetically,
C to C = unison (1)
C to C = 8ve (8)
8 + 1 = 9


Notice that perfect intervals invert to perfect intervals, Major intervals invert to minors, minors to majors, and Augmenteds invert to diminished and vice versa. Another interesting characteristic of inverted intervals is that they have the same psychological effect no matter which way they are inverted...octaves are always the most consonant, and mi2nd/Ma7th intervals are always the most dissonant (this has to do with the acoustical properties of the harmonic series, but that's a topic best saved for later). For this reason, I always think of the inverted intervals as being roughly the same, which cuts in half the number of categories to remember.

So, instead of thinking of 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, and 7ths, you can instead simplify to:

2nds/7ths
3rds/6ths
4ths/5ths



Hope that wasn't too confusing


Originally posted by MAMA CASS


it was

but i just grabbed my bass and went over the scale. I see how the ma7 is B. So later when I have time, Ill go over it again and and figure out what the min 3rd is and then the maj 6th and so on.

I dont quite get the little 9 rule.




BIGGERTHANMICHELLEPHILLIPS,

Maybe this will help: any time you go up from one note to another, the distance from the lower note to the higher note produces an interval. For example, lets say you play the note C on your A string, 3rd fret. If you go up to the open G string, the interval produced is a perfect 5th. But if you go down from that same original C to the G below (E string, 3rd fret), the distance between the C and G in this direction is a Perfect 4th. This is what I mean by inverting an interval. C to G can be either a perfect 5th or a perfect 4th depending on whether you go up or down from the C to the G. Does that make more sense?

When you invert an interval, you have the same basic class of sound going on - after all, C to G is always going to sound like C to G no matter which note is on top - but there is a coloristic difference between the sound of a perfect 4th and the sound of a perfect 5th. These intervals are related because they are inversions of each other - meaning that if you add them together, they produce an octave (in this case, octave G's with a C in the middle).

If you go back to my original post about the "rule of 9", try this with your bass:


C to E = Ma 3rd
E to C = mi 6th
3+6= 9

Okay now (assuming 4 string numbering) play the E on your 2nd string, 2nd fret. If you go down to the C (3rd st, 3rd fr) below, then the distance between the two notes is a Major 3rd ( aka - 4 semitones or half steps, whichever term you are familiar with). But if you go up from that same E to the C on the 1st string, 5th fret, the distance between the notes is now a minor 6th (aka 8 semitones). You have just inverted the original interval. And the names of the intervals when you invert them - in this case 6 (for minor 6th) and 3 (for Major 3rd) - always add up to the number "9".

Does this help, or am I getting more confusing as I go along?

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Well, you can't really go wrong with TARD TABEVIL, can you? I mean, I know the first half of it has been used before, but maybe that's a sign from above.

Lesse, TaBeViL names so far:

BLINKY
CONK
TOFU
PHLEGM
DURRL
DAFFY
PUFF

Who am I leaving out? Thoughts, anyone?

I seem to recall once being dubbed MERSEY TABEVIL... ;)

I think that MISS SPRAY would do much to help his cause by changing the title of this thread to:

Intervals: Explantion of, and roll call for members Tabevil Clan.

Gard, thanks for the great thread.

up

Good call on the bump. Ive been meaning to go over all this stuff again.

Ah, lookee here, the thread where I was inducted into Clan TaBeviL. *sighs*. :D

And, once again, I've been working on intervals: Going through all 12 key signatures and playing 4ths (vertically or horizontally up the neck), 5ths (vert. or horiz.), 6ths (vert.), and 7ths (vert.) ascending and descending.

Intervals are very important to learn about. They're everywhere!. Seriously, if you think about it. A song is a set of a bunch of intervals, right? Chords are made up intervals. You just can't escape 'em...and why would you want to, eh? :D

Looks like these havent been read in a while so "bump"

For our purposes, we will work with the key of C major, mainly because it has no sharps or flats to bother us (because in addition to being in possession of poor communication skills, I'm also lazy ;) ).


Would this be any different in another key? And how would that work? Sorry if this is vague, I can always revise after I get an attempt of an answer. Thanks.

Edit: let me see if I have this right:

In another key, which you construct from the chromatic scale (right?), say C#maj. (being that it's the next recommended key from Pacman's scale practice guide) you would then pick out all the intervals as described in this post correct? The notes would be different but the intervals (spacing) would be the same.

My problem is determining the correlation between keys and scales and that sometimes they are the same... I think the question is how do you determine Key? is it just the chromatic scale starting off on a different note? Then you use ttsttts, or other formula, to make a scale? sorry if I'm talking nonsense.

In another key, which you construct from the chromatic scale (right?), say C#maj. (being that it's the next recommended key from Pacman's scale practice guide) you would then pick out all the intervals as described in this post correct? The notes would be different but the intervals (spacing) would be the same.

Yes, that's right. C#maj would use the same intervals - ttsttts - as Cmaj or another other major scale:

C -tone- D -tone- E -semitone- F -tone- G -tone- A -tone- B -semitone- C

C# -tone- D# -tone- E# -semitone- F# -tone- G# -tone- A# -tone- B# -semitone- C#

Bear in mind that to make reading easier, keys always have a C, a D, an E, and so on. So instead of the C# scale having no E note, an F, and an F#, you sharpen the E to continue that flow of letters. This saves a lot of confusion when a piece in an akward key like C#maj is written down. Hopefully I've explained this properly.

The concept of what makes a key is a little more complex and beyond my powers of explanation, so I'll do what I should have done with this and let someone with greater knowledge answer you.

Gard-
Perhaps I can help explain the "Rule of 9."

In C major (again, for sake of clarity)

We all know that a D is a major 2nd away from C, correct? How far away from D is a C, though? Start with 9 (as this is the rule of nine) and subtract the first interval.

9-2 = 7

This tells us that C is a seventh away from D.

The quality of the seventh is determined by the quality of the second. Majors always become minors, so seeing as we started with a major 2nd, it becomes a MINOR 7th when inverted.

Majors become minors, and vice versa.
Perfects stay perfect (that's why they're called perfect!)
Augmented intervals become diminished ones.

Another Example:
C to Eb is minor third.
9-3 = 6
minor becomes major

So Eb to C is a Major 6th

Try a few examples. I kinda walked you through the first one, the last two, you can do all on your own:

C to F = perfect 4th
9 - ____ = _______
Perfect becomes ________

F to C = ___________

C to Ab = ___________
Ab to C = ___________

C to Gb = ___________
Gb to C = ___________


No cheating and looking back at Fitzgerald's post!


This theory stuff is really cool, i'm finally starting to learn it. :cool:

Edit: Oops, this is WAYYYY old. anyway, I hope it teaches somebody something anyway.

Edit: Oops, this is WAYYYY old. anyway, I hope it teaches somebody something anyway.

It's old but good.

I like Gard's quantity/quality description of how to determine intervals. That's pretty much how I teach it.

I get students to count the note "letters" starting from the lowest up to the highest note, ignoring sharps of flats:

eg. C# to Gb would be CDEFG = 12345 = interval "quantity" of fifth (of some kind)
F to Bx would be FGAB = 1234 = interval "quantity" of fourth (of some kind)
etc.

Then I get them to work out if the higher note would be in the major key that has the lower note as its tonic. Rather than get them to construct the scale as TTSTTTS, I get them to work it out from the circles of fifths/fourths:

Sharp major keys:
Key C G D A E B F# C#
#s 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Order in which sharps appear:
F# C# G# D# A# E# B#

Flat major keys:
Key C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb
bs 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Order in which flats appear:
Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb

If the higher note is "in key" (ie. would be found in the major key that has the lower note as its tonic), and it has the interval "quantity" of one of these boldened values:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8...

Then it has the interval "quality" of "perfect"

If it's raised from the perfect interval by one half step, it's "augmented". If it's raised by two half steps, it's "double augmented", etc.

If it's lowered from the perfect interval by one half step, it's "diminished". If it's lowered by two half steps, it's "double diminished", etc.

If the interval "quantity" is one of these boldened values:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8...

and the higher note is "in key" (ie. would be found in the major key that has the lower note as its tonic) then it has a "major" interval "quality".

If it's lowered from the major interval by one half step, it has a "minor" interval quality. If it's lowered by two half steps, it is "diminished". If it's lowered by three half steps, it's "double diminished" etc.

If it's raised from the major interval by one half step, it's "augmented". If it's raised by two half steps, it's "double augmented", etc.

It's old but good.

I like Gard's quantity/quality description of how to determine intervals. That's pretty much how I teach it.

I get students to count the note "letters" starting from the lowest up to the highest note, ignoring sharps of flats:

eg. C# to Gb would be CDEFG = 12345 = interval "quantity" of fifth (of some kind)
F to Bx would be FGAB = 1234 = interval "quantity" of fourth (of some kind)
etc.

Then I get them to work out if the higher note would be in the major key using the lower note as the tonic. Rather than get them to construct the scale as TTSTTTS, I get them to work it out from the circles of fifths/fourths:

Sharp major keys:
Key C G D A E B F# C#
#s 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Order in which sharps appear:
F# C# G# D# A# E# B#

Flat major keys:
Key C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb
bs 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Order in which flats appear:
Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb

If the higher note is "in key", and it has the interval "quantity" of one of these boldened values:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8...

Then it has the interval "quality" of "perfect"

If it's raised from the perfect interval by one half step, it's "augmented". If it's raised by two half steps, it's "double augmented", etc.

If it's lowered from the perfect interval by one half step, it's "diminished". If it's lowered by two half steps, it's "double diminished", etc.

If the interval "quantity" is one of these boldened values:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8...

and the higher note is "in key" then it has a "major" interval "quality".

If it's lowered from the major interval by one half step, it has a "minor" interval quality. If it's lowered by two half steps, it is "diminished". If it's lowered by three half steps, it's "double diminished" etc.

If it's raised from the major interval by one half step, it's "augmented". If it's raised by two half steps, it's "double augmented", etc.

The only problem with this is that you're assuming that "in key" means "in a major key." This could be misleading if not explained. For example, when a third is "in key" in A minor, it doesn't have a major quality, it has a minor quality.

The only problem with this is that you're assuming that "in key" means "in a major key." This could be misleading if not explained. For example, when a third is "in key" in A minor, it doesn't have a major quality, it has a minor quality.

That's why I specified this:

Then I get them to work out if the higher note would be in the major key using the lower note as the tonic.

Maybe I should highlight that bit by putting it in bold?

That's why I specified this:



Maybe I should highlight that bit by putting it in bold?

Might not be a bad idea.;)

Might not be a bad idea.;)

Done, with a few extra clarifications.

Done, with a few extra clarifications.

If you don't mind my saying so, I think it's an improvement.

Hi there - just letting you know that there's a pretty comprehensive lesson on intervals at my site - if you go to the lessons page, it's the first chord theory lesson and leads to a bunch of other chord/harmony lessons.

There are plenty of exercises & sound files to go with it.

this is a fantastic thread, thanks to all those who took the time to contribute. I've been teaching myself to read music and dabbling in theory for a bit now, this has been very helpful