As many of you know, I am trying to teach myself sightreading and theory.

Now when it comes to time, I understand the value of notes and rests, and basic time signatures like 2/2, 3/4, 4/4, 6/8, etc.

But odd times, such as 5/4, 7/4, 11/4, 11/8 are giving me fits. I can't feel them the way that I can a 3 or a 4.

Can anyone recommend some good resources for developing a feel for odd(is compound the word I am looking for?) times, and maybe some songs that I can listen to in which the feel is evident?

I have an answer for this, but all of my information and resources are at home and I'm at work right now. I'll post again tonight if someone else already hasn't.

my (former) bass teacher taught me to play in odd time signatures w/ his drum machine. It was an Alesis... it was neat, he could program in odd times like 5/4, 7/12, and he'd just have me improv. over some guitar chord changes, so that i could get a feel for the groove... it was really frustraiting for a long time... then slowly i started to feel the groove, so that it was as familiar as 4/4... sadly, since i've stoped taking lessions, i'm pretty sure i've lost the feel.

Originally posted by embellisher
But odd times, such as 5/4, 7/4, 11/4, 11/8 are giving me fits. I can't feel them the way that I can a 3 or a 4.

Embellisher-
Join the club, man.
A drummer I used to gig with(& he has spoiled me, the bastid)had this to say about yours truly-
"I have never met a guy so ingrained in 4/4".

...that's NO compliment, either! ;)
His reasoning why I had difficulties? 4/4(& 3/4 & 6/8)are all I ever listened to...in short, those time sigs were(ARE) relatable.
So, some listening, THINKING, studying, counting, & writing are required.

What has helped me-
Tapping(again!)the ODD against 4/4(polyrhythms).
Here's "5 vs. 4"-
1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a5e&a...
Both hands tap together on "1".
One hand taps on "1"-"2"-"3"-"4"-"5"(the "5" component)
The other hand taps on "1"-"e of 2"-"& of 3"-"a of 4"(the "4" component)

Other things to try-
Take one of your patented 4/4 1-bar figures & ADD an 1/4 note(or two 1/8 notes, one triplet, etc)...whatever, ADD an extra beat!
Or, take one of your patented 2-bar grooves & SUBTRACT a beat(I did this to "All Blues"...instead of 2 bars in 6, I have one bar in 6 & one bar in 5).

Or play around with the notes values to yield an 'extra beat'...
Example: For simplicity's sake, imagine FOUR 1/4 notes in a bar. Now, make the 1st two 1/4 notes = DOTTED 1/4 notes.
So-
/1___2___3___4___/ becomes
/1_____&_____4___5___/(this rhythm should look/sound familiar!)

Also cool(IMO)is making a Samba into something in 3 or 5 or 7...it's wide-open, hope I gave you some food for thought.
(And it gets dicey when you're playing 'odd' against a drummer doing his thing in 4).

Originally posted by Pacman
Let me see if I can write this out.

Count: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 &
Feel : 1 & 2 & 3 &

I really feel behind the curve trying to explain this in type....some help here? Did what I typed make sense?

Yeah, I forgot about that-
Essentially, that's counting/feeling in HALF-TIME.
2 1/2 = 5
3 1/2 = 7
4 1/2 = 9
5 1/2 = 11
etc

If 4/4 = 1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a = 16 1/16th notes, right?

5 = 1e&a2e&a3e = 10 1/16th notes
...OR
/1-2-AND/1-2-AND/ etc

7 = 1e&a2e&a3e&a4e = 14 1/16th notes
...OR
/1-2-3-AND/1-2-3-AND/ etc

Try breaking the odd times into sections of twos and threes i.e. 5/4 can be felt as a measure of 3 and a measure of 2. 7 can be felt as two bars of 2 and one bar of 3.

Money by Pink Floyd is a great excercise in 7/4. I'll try to think up a couple others. If you listen to Rush then you've heard it all.

Jon

Originally posted by Muttluk
my (former) bass teacher taught me to play in odd time signatures w/ his drum machine. It was an Alesis... it was neat, he could program in odd times like 5/4, 7/12, and he'd just have me improv. over some guitar chord changes, so that i could get a feel for the groove... it was really frustraiting for a long time... then slowly i started to feel the groove, so that it was as familiar as 4/4... sadly, since i've stoped taking lessions, i'm pretty sure i've lost the feel.

Um, 7/12?

Emb, count/tap it out. After doing it enough, you'll eventually get a feel for when the bar repeats. That's the simpletons answers...I'm sure there are better ways, but it works.

Thanks for the help, guys!

I suspected that Money was in 7, but I wasn't sure. I know that Rush uses 7/4, 5/4 and 11/4 quite a bit, but they play odd metres so well that it is really difficult for me to tell when they aren't in 4.

With quite a lot of time on my hands, I spent a couple of hours today figuring out a bass line by ear. I also wrote the notation for it. Goes to show that it changes time signature every now and then - starts in 4/4 but changes to 6/8 and 7/8. I wasn't aware that there were an odd time signature involved by just listening to it, I just thought it grooved pretty good. It came as quite a surprise when I analyzed the rhythms and... whoa, I can FEEL and GROOVE in 7/8! I don't even have to count anymore! Cool! :cool:

Sorry if I'm intruding, I just felt like saying it.

Just thought of a couple more songs to check out:

If you're into Sting at all there are a few tracks off Ten Summoner's Tales in odd times:

7/4: Love is stronger than Justice and St. Augustine in Hell

5/4: Seven Days.

Vinnie Colaiuta plays so damned well on this album that you can barely tell that it's odd time.

One last bit of advice: Only count when trying to figure out what time the song is in. Don't count when you're playing.

Slap me if I sound condescending.

I alluded to this in another thread, but Dave Weckl has a great way of explaining how to feel odd times well. (and that was the point of Embellisher's post) Unfortunately, I can't remember for sure if it's in his second video or his first. I think it's on the second one.

Very difficult to explain here, but it involves feeling part of the bar in simple time, and the other in compound. I highly recommend asking your drummer to borrow his video (you know he's got it - every drummer in the world bought those vids :D )

Originally posted by jblake
Vinnie Colaiuta plays so damned well on this album that you can barely tell that it's odd time.

IMO, that's cool(& important).
There's also a Reggae-tinged tune in 7 from Sting's Nothing Like The Sun album..."Straight To My Heart".
The bass plays a figure something like this-
/1__&_&_&5_6&7_/ = bass' rhythm
/1_2_3_4_5_6_7_/ = 'the count'

I guess you can count the 'first part' in 4(1__&_&_&)
...& 'the second part' in 3(5_6&7_)


Hey Packer-
Trust me, not every drummer is a fan of Weckl's. ;)
(Does he have a new album out?)
Anyone else ever hear Colaiuta sitting in with Corea's Akoustic Band? Whew!
(Dave who?)

Originally posted by JimK


Hey Packer-
Trust me, not every drummer is a fan of Weckl's. ;)
(Does he have a new album out?)
Anyone else ever hear Colaiuta sitting in with Corea's Akoustic Band? Whew!
(Dave who?)

Actually, the only albums Dave has done that I actually like are the two most recent. Both with Tom Kennedy on bass - geeeeeeeez, that guy is a freak - what a monster!

Jeff,

I few years ago I went to a clinic with Billy Sheehan and drummer Mike Mangini, Mike has a couple of books out teaching how to play in odd meters, he gave a short lecture about how the books work. He said that he thinks of 7/4 as half a beat short of 4/4. He uses that "doubled up" technique for all the other odd time meters, too. He thinks of 5/4 as one beat less than 6. I don't have any more experience with Mike's stuff than that, but he really seemed to know what he was talking about.

Chris A.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Muttluk
7/12

7/12 eh? :D

Anyway, I played bass in a play last summer and some of the songs had really wild key signatures, so for the band leader fellow to help the drummer and I, he had us listen to the recording of the song and count the beats (like for a 7/4 measure hed just have us say "1,2,3,4,5,6,7" along with the tune) then he told us the same thing Chris A said, about thinking about the time signatures as a beat short of a common time signature.

Originally posted by Pacman


Actually, the only albums Dave has done that I actually like are the two most recent. Both with Tom Kennedy on bass - geeeeeeeez, that guy is a freak - what a monster!

Truth be told, I have all Weckl's solo discs(except the 'newest', Zone...it's a CD + a DVD of excerpts from his instructional videos). Tower has it for, like, $16.
Personally, I enjoy stuff like Synergy & Transition...I love Tommy Kennedy's playing & I like Buzz Feiten, etc.
Weckl's liner notes explain what's going on in each tune; a lotta his tunes have a 6/8 vs. 4/4 counter-rhythm happenin'...pretty typical Latin-esque stuff, huh?

Originally posted by JimK


Weckl's liner notes explain what's going on in each tune; a lotta his tunes have a 6/8 vs. 4/4 counter-rhythm happenin'...pretty typical Latin-esque stuff, huh?

Well, you're spot on there. When you boil it down, Weckl is really just a really decent latin drummer. Everything else just follows....

Dang, I got a book about this a few years ago and I really only skimmed through it so I cant tell if its worth buying or not (although I've generally found the MI series of books to be quite good).

Anyway its Odd-Meter Bassics by Dino Monoxelos.

On a similar topic I've a question for American TB ers:

when talking about timing I see you guys refer to 8ths, 16ths etc. whereas when I learnt theory (here in Ireland) it was crotchets, quavers, minims etc. do you guys use these conventions in the states?

Money is a great one to start with since it goes from 7/4 to 4/4 and then back again...

When I was playing the drums I had to learn that song, and have since learned it on bass. Doubling up is what I always do now with odd timings.

hey jeff.

we do a lot in odd time, and the first thing imo is to keep counting. in our instrumental, linked in the sig, we hit almost all of them. :D

there's a long section near the beginning where we shift back and forth between 7/4 and 7/8. throughout this section, there is a guitar playing in 7/8, and when the sig switches from the slow, 7/4 to the faster 7/8, the guitar sounds like it's slowing down a lot more than it really is. sort of an audio illusion i was going after.

one little stunt that we do a lot of is to shift an accent at the end of a passage, so that the time sig ends up looking like 7/8 4/4 4/4 9/8 for a 4 measure passage or 3/4 4/4 4/4 5/4 - the unison rush-sounding section in the instrumental has both of those going on. this ends up being 4/4, but with that shifted accent, it sounds more interesting, imo.

we also do stuff where everyone will be playing in an alternating sig, like 7/8 9/8 , with a real driving 8th note pulse, and the drums will then change and play a section with a more laid back, straight 4/4 beat. that brings out different accents and feels and makes a section that could get boring pretty fast into one that has a bit more interest to the listener.

then again, we have a section in one of our songs where the drums and bass are playing in 5/4, one of the guitars is playing in 4/4 (cycling around so that they line up only every 5th guitar measure or 4th drum/bass measure, every 20 beats) and the other guitar/synth is soloing. that was fun :D

i've found some hints that seemed to have worked for me on how to make odd time natural

1. make a melody. don't start out with something and try to "make it odd", just make a melody, and if it's in an odd time, so be it. same thing with reading odd times - find the melody of the part and sing it to yourself, and then figure out how it fits with the time sig, not the other way around. if you focus on the melodic flow of the part you're to play, the time sig stuff will eventually fall together for you. the melody has the flow, not the sig. the sig needs to serve the melody, not the other way around

2. when creating something in odd time, try to resolve each section with a pulse note. what i mean by pulse note is a note that corresponds with what time sig denomination you're playing in - 8th note for 7/8, quarters for 5/4, etc. while not essential, this kind of note phrasing helps to hold the pulse of the part together - sort of like resolving a walking line on a chord note after a few blue passing notes.

3. learn how to count. :D this sounds funny, but what i mean is learn how to count a part out accurately and easily so that you can count it in your sleep. practice counting and subdividing beats so that you can do so easily, without expending too much "processor time".

just remember, the odd time sig should always serve the melody - the melody is what matters. everything else is artificial, created to help explain and convey the melody.

Originally posted by embellisher
Now when it comes to time, I understand the value of notes and rests, and basic time signatures like 2/2, 3/4, 4/4, 6/8, etc.

But odd times, such as 5/4, 7/4, 11/4, 11/8 are giving me fits. I can't feel them the way that I can a 3 or a 4.

Can anyone recommend some good resources for developing a feel for odd(is compound the word I am looking for?) times, and maybe some songs that I can listen to in which the feel is evident?

Here's something that may get you started on the basic feel of odd time sigs. First off, don't think of them as so odd in the first place. If you can feel 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4 then you can feel 7/4 or 7/8.

The thing that everyone's touched on so far here is SUBDIVIDING. a song in 7 can be felt in many ways. Similar to what JT was saying about pulse notes, you can count 7 in different combinations. Common ways are:

1 2 3 4 1 2 3

or

1 2 1 2 1 2 3

with the bold numbers being accents. Tap these rhythms (repeating at a constant tempo) with your hand while counting (or play a note on bass). MAKE SURE to include the accents. In the first example you could just as easily be playing a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 3/4. The second ex. could be 2 bars of 2/4 and a bar of 3/4.

Play each one separately, repeating over and over at a constant tempo. Then try combining them and alternating between the two rhythms. Then try counting the entire figure but ONLY playing the accents. You''ll be playing, and FEELING, 7/8.

Originally posted by Murf
On a similar topic I've a question for American TB ers:

when talking about timing I see you guys refer to 8ths, 16ths etc. whereas when I learnt theory (here in Ireland) it was crotchets, quavers, minims etc. do you guys use these conventions in the states?

Hemidemisemiquavers? Never heard of 'em!;):D

Originally posted by Stingray5


Here's something that may get you started on the basic feel of odd time sigs. First off, don't think of them as so odd in the first place. If you can feel 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4 then you can feel 7/4 or 7/8.

The thing that everyone's touched on so far here is SUBDIVIDING. a song in 7 can be felt in many ways. Similar to what JT was saying about pulse notes, you can count 7 in different combinations. Common ways are:

1 2 3 4 1 2 3

or

1 2 1 2 1 2 3

with the bold numbers being accents. Tap these rhythms (repeating at a constant tempo) with your hand while counting (or play a note on bass). MAKE SURE to include the accents. In the first example you could just as easily be playing a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 3/4. The second ex. could be 2 bars of 2/4 and a bar of 3/4.

Play each one separately, repeating over and over at a constant tempo. Then try combining them and alternating between the two rhythms. Then try counting the entire figure but ONLY playing the accents. You''ll be playing, and FEELING, 7/8.


TIMEJUGGLER,

I think that CORVETTE 2+3 has hit the crux of the biscuit with his post, which is fantastic advice. Igor Stravinsky once wrote that you only have to be able to count to three to be a good rhythmic musician, because everything else can be reduced to combinations of accent patterns based on the numbers 1, 2, and 3 (this from the man who liked to use time sigs such as 13/8 at one point in his career). You know the Rush song "Tom Sawyer"? Most of it is in 4/4, but there's a part in the middle where everyone plays a unison line that displays odd meter characteristics that can be used as an example of two different ways of thinking of 7/8.

The phrase is two bars in length, and both are (or for the fussy Rushophlies among us, can be seen as) measures of 7/8. The first uses the accent pattern 2+2+3:

1234567 (or 1212 123)

and the second measure uses the pattern 3+2+2:

1234567 (or 1231212)


Put them together (beat these accents on your desk while reading) and you get this:

1234567 1234567

(or)

12121231231212




Do you know the part I'm talking about? It can be explained/notated in other ways (like 7/4, 4/4 + 3/4, etc), but this is one way to think of it that is a good illustration of contrasting patterns in 7/8 right in the same tune.

This is a great thread, glad you started it.

Originally posted by embellisher


Hemidemisemiquavers? Never heard of 'em!;):D


:D ......wow havent heard that one in a looooonnng time.

(actually the more I think of it that could be a good name for a band....although try saying it with 7 pints in you..."ladiesh n geneltemen pu' yer handsh together fer DE HEM..HEMINI..HEMINI DEMINIMI...bugger..THE BAND")

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
TIMEJUGGLER,

I think that CORVETTE 2+3 has hit the crux of the biscuit with his post, which is fantastic advice. Igor Stravinsky once ....

lots of stuff in here about stuff....

... but this is one way to think of it that is a good way to think of contrasting patterns in 7/8 right in the same tune.

This is a great thread, glad you started it. [/B]

So, I'm guessing this all made sense to you as you typed it?! Scary man Chris. Scary man.

I've noticed a recurring pattern in my half-baked grooves-
Bar 1 = 4/4
Bar 2 = 7/8

...wonderin' if that came from listening to Led Zep's "The Ocean" ad infinitum way back when? :confused:

Another comment regarding JT's post about the guita in 4, the bass in 5, & how everything meets back up on 1 eventually. That's cool(& drummers do this all the time).
Also, one can fit everything within the same bar.

If you have a sequencer or a drum machine, here's the math-

If 4/4 @100 bpm is 'the reference'(1/4 note = 100 bpm)

To fit 5/4 within that bar, multiply 100 x 1.25
...125 bpm.

6/4...100 x 1.50 = 150 bpm
7/4...100 x 1.75 = 175 bpm

3/4...100 x 0.75 = 75 bpm

Maybe it's geek-ish, just some BS I like to fool around with...

Sometimes, What I try to do when playing in odd times, is just to follow the melody, and stop counting. Sometimes it's not that hard, really, because most of the time, it follows the melody, and therefor makes sense. I recieved the music for Echidna's arf by Zappa a while ago, and tried to practice before the first rehearsal. I had never heard the song, and the 5/16, the 11/16, and the 2/4 4/4 5/4 4/4 7/4 bars after each other just freaked me out. It was very hard to read, and make music out of it. But when we all played together, it just fell in to place (well most of it anyway), since it followed the melody or if it didn't, someone else had something that you could follow, or that made you understand better. Ofcourse, it's always good to keep counting, and sometimes that's your only solution, to subdivide and subdivide and subdivide, but sometimes, you can just let it go.

If you want listening tips, i suggest zappa. the piece i mentioned, is an orgie in odd meters, if you can find it.

Also Jesus Christ Superstar has some good stuff in 5/4 (Everything's allright) and 7/8 (The Temple), 9/8 among other things. There is some good bass-playing there aswell, BTW.

AND it's time for some shameless self-promotion: If you click the link in my signature, and click DEMO, and listen to song Partek Polska, you'll find some bad bass-playing, and out of tune violins, but also a melody that hints at odd meters, with a steady (well it's supposed to be anyway) beat from the bass, guitar and drums in 3/4.

Great tip about putting the beats in groups of 2 and 3, whoever gave it!

Great thread guys, with alot of great info here.

I can count odd meters, write in odd meters (to some extent), but my problem arises in telling what time a tune is in. In conventional rock, I can tell the meter no matter what, no difficulty for me there. But lately I've gotten heavily into the Flecktones (though as of yet, I'm new to them without much knowledge of them). I've been trying to become accustomed to the meters in which they play, but I'm having a bit of difficulty feeling the groove sometimes.

Can anyone give me tips, in general, on how to find the beat in an odd-metered song?

I'm trying to figure out exactly how to apply the info in this thread to figuring out meters.

Again, everyone, thanks for your help. I am trying to absorb this, but it is a slow process.:)