Saturday night was my first show with my new band, Calvary (www.myspace.com/calvaryrock), and we had to deal with the absolute worst sound guy I have ever had to work with. He made me turn down so far that I couldn't hear myself AT ALL over the drums, and told our lead guitarist to turn down so far that his Marshall JCM2000 sounded like a spring reverb tank getting kicked. It was ridiculous. After ten minutes of arguing with him, we finally managed to convince him to just let us run our amps without PA support (the room was only about 40'x40', so it's not like we wouldn't have been able to fill it without the PA) and just use the system for kick drum, toms, and vocals. The worst part of the situation was that he was using an Allen & Heath board that I am familiar with, so it took all of my self control not to just push him out of the way and do it myself.

We managed to put on a pretty good show despite the moron behind the board, and the crowd seemed to dig it a lot. It was just SO frustrating to have to deal with that kind of crap on our first show, when three of the five of us have never gigged before. The one gutiarist and I were in a band together for almost two years, so we were familiar with how these things work, so we were confident that things would work out pretty well one way or another, but our drummer was nervous going into the gig and the soudman situation certainly wasn't helping him.

Yeowch. I feel for ya, man. I've been there.

Way to keep a cool head, though. :D

yep, been there more often than I care to remember.

i totally know the feeling! I'm dealing with it weekly now, 2 gigs/jams a week and so much tweaking because of the set-ups and people.. sigh* i need a good sound man!

The best trick when they want you to keep turning down, is just to turn off your amp, and then point out that you're not even making sound, at that point. Then you have ammo to tell them how to do things the way you want.

For some reason, the sound guy at the place my band plays at a lot thinks it's cool to not even mic my rig. He mics everything else, except my stuff. I've had to ask him on three separate occasions to mic my rig. Now, I'm pretty sure he's just plugging me in, but not even giving me any volume. This situation is forcing me to run my rig at retarded levels. I think next time, I'm going to insist on having more bass in the monitors. That way at least I know I'm actually getting into SOME part of the PA. It really pisses me off though, because my band is one of the few bands in the area where the bass is actually an integral part of the music.

We have our own FOH engineer so this does not happen. It really sucks to put on a show having to go through all of that during set up and sound check.

Maybe the soundman wasn't such a moron. A 100 watt marshall head is way to much amp for a room that small. What was he using for a cab? Maybe the drummer needs to learn how to play a little softer.

stay away from the KNITTING FACTORY in NYC

i saw the band TRAGEDY play in a packed tiny basement with two full stacks and an SVT 8x10.full blast. awesome.the ceiling was so low they had to put the guitar cabs sideways.!:hyper::hyper::hyper::hyper::hyper::hype r:

run our amps without PA support (the room was only about 40'x40', so it's not like we wouldn't have been able to fill it without the PA) and just use the system for kick drum, toms, and vocals.

That's probably what you should have done in the beginning for that room - no discussion necessary to turn into an argument.

Good things worked out in the end.

Maybe the soundman wasn't such a moron. A 100 watt marshall head is way to much amp for a room that small. What was he using for a cab? Maybe the drummer needs to learn how to play a little softer.

I have to agree. There is a lot of soundman bashing that goes on in here. Many "musicians" I talk to have no concept of sound reinforcement, balance or presence.

Just because you can "cary a room" with your stage gear doesn't mean it will sound good. YOu need balance and presence. We run everything through the PA - no matter what size the room is. Now, that doesn't mean that everything is cranked. It means that enough sound is sent through to create a nice mixed sound going to the FOH.

For example, we play a small restaurant/bar regularly. We could just mic vocals and get by. We choose to run everything - drums and bass included, in the FOH. All the kick needs is a little bit to give it a presence that you wouldn't get by just pounding on it without it being in the system.

I'm sure there are a number of bad sound guys. I'm equally sure there are a number of idiots playing in bands who think they know everything there is to know about SR. It's really hard to make a band sound good out front if they refuse to work with you.

FOH sound an stage sound are 2 different things. Take it easy on the soundguy.

amen to that +1000000000000000000

We managed to put on a pretty good show despite the moron behind the board, and the crowd seemed to dig it a lot.

Sounds like he did his job. The crowd seemed to dig it a lot. I bet they heard everything very clearly. And I'm willing to bet you guys were fighting him tooth and nail on every point, regarding turning down, so he probably said "**** it, I'm just going to make it sound good front of house, screw the stage.

There IS such a thing as monitors. You don't always have to make your amp carry the WHOLE room (and sound like crap whilst doing so).

But judging by your MySpace page recordings, you guys like to play so loud you probably have lost half your hearing anyway.

Simply put, if you think your band is so good as to expect better than provided FOH sound mixing, you should either a) be willing to pay for your own pro soundperson or b) not play that venue.

Simply put, if you think your band is so good as to expect better than provided FOH sound mixing, you should either a) be willing to pay for your own pro soundperson or b) not play that venue.

Another great post.

For some reason, the sound guy at the place my band plays at a lot thinks it's cool to not even mic my rig. He mics everything else, except my stuff. I've had to ask him on three separate occasions to mic my rig. Now, I'm pretty sure he's just plugging me in, but not even giving me any volume. This situation is forcing me to run my rig at retarded levels. I think next time, I'm going to insist on having more bass in the monitors. That way at least I know I'm actually getting into SOME part of the PA. It really pisses me off though, because my band is one of the few bands in the area where the bass is actually an integral part of the music.

You may be somwhere in the PA but it doesn't mean you're in the FOH ;) If he's got a grudge he'd send the signal out of the Aux just to shut you up.

Sounds like he did his job. The crowd seemed to dig it a lot. I bet they heard everything very clearly. And I'm willing to bet you guys were fighting him tooth and nail on every point, regarding turning down, so he probably said "**** it, I'm just going to make it sound good front of house, screw the stage.

There IS such a thing as monitors. You don't always have to make your amp carry the WHOLE room (and sound like crap whilst doing so).

But judging by your MySpace page recordings, you guys like to play so loud you probably have lost half your hearing anyway.

Simply put, if you think your band is so good as to expect better than provided FOH sound mixing, you should either a) be willing to pay for your own pro soundperson or b) not play that venue.

Remember, we're talking about rock music in Iowa on a Saturday night in a small 1,600 square foot dance hall at the Elk's Lodge.

Plug in and just have fun!

Remember, we're talking about rock music in Iowa on a Saturday night in a small 1,600 square foot dance hall at the Elk's Lodge.

Plug in and just have fun!

I don't disagree with you - I think they should be rather overjoyed just to be playing out at all. But they aren't, which leads me to believe that they think they deserve better, so I hold to my post. If they truly believe they deserve more then they should be willing to take action to improve the situation. And more power to them! If not, then they are just whining, aren't they? Sorry if it seems harsh.

they are just whining, aren't they? Sorry if it seems harsh.

I would say "Yes" on both counts.;)

It used to be kind of funny, another bash the sound guy post. I am starting to get tired of the whining and shifting of blame. The sound guy can't make any band sound much better than they are to begin with, and the soundguy may not be the only reason why a gig sucked.

OK, let me clarify a few things...

It's not that the soundman didn't want our guitarist to turn up "as loud as he wanted." It's that he didn't want him to turn up AT ALL. He was on 1/2 of 1. Even without the drums going, I could barely hear him from the other side of the stage. Tube amps have to be turned up a little ways to get any sort of attack and presence, otherwise they sound spongey and terrible. That is what was happening. Granted, a JCM800 is more amp than was really necessary for the situation, but there was no reason to make him turn it down THAT far.

I know that there is a difference between front of house sound and stage sound. I also know that if your amp sounds terrible before you mic it, then it will sound terrible when you DO mic it. I am an A/V tech by trade, and I know how these things work.

I also know that it IS possible to carry a small to medium sized room without PA support for the amps. I've done it several times, and as long as everyone realizes that they can't just turn up as loud as they want, it can sound pretty good.

The link in my sig is my old band, not the new one. The new band is poppier and not nearly as heavy.

It wasn't just our band that sounded bad with the sound guy. We were there when the headliner (The Wedding) was soundchecking, and he made them sound terrible too. Also, it wasn't just me that was frustrated with how the situation was going. EVERYONE in the room during the soundcheck time was commenting on how bad it was sounding, including people that weren't even IN bands, and the promoter.

I am also not shifting the blame for anything. As I said, once we were able to get the kinks worked out, the show went really well and the kids that were there dug it. My point was that it was frustrating working with someone who seemed to have VERY little knowledge of how to effectively run sound. I've dealt with some less than stellar soundguys before, but nobody as bad as this.

I know ya'll are just getting underway, but you should hear the guitar from your monitor cab, not the guitarists amp.

Once again, let me clarify...

The band is new, and some members are not very experienced. Myself and one guitarist ARE somewhat experienced, though. We gigged hard together for about two years in our other band.

I was not talking about not being able to hear the guitarist while the band was playing. I was talking about barely being able to hear it on a quiet stage, standing 6 feet away from it.

I know ya'll are just getting underway, but you should hear the guitar from your monitor cab, not the guitarists amp.

+1

It used to be kind of funny, another bash the sound guy post. I am starting to get tired of the whining and shifting of blame. The sound guy can't make any band sound much better than they are to begin with, and the soundguy may not be the only reason why a gig sucked.

Ouch! Boy, there is some truth to that. :)

Good grief, guys, this was a rock 'n' roll show for a bunch of teenagers, that DID GO REALLY WELL after we got some kinks worked out. This was not some smooth jazz trio playing for a wine tasting. The gig did NOT suck, the final sound was GOOD, but we had to argue our point with an unexperienced kid (I'm guessing he was 17 or 18) that wasn't aware of how amps work.

I agree with you, Steve, that a sound man can't make a band sound BETTER than they are, but he can sure as heck make them sound WORSE than they are, agree?

Well maybe the soundman didn't know what he was doing if he was that young. But maybe your band doesn't either. Only two of you have any experience playing out and 2 years isn't that long. Unless you are playing huge rooms or outdoors the 100 watt head is overkill.

Son, always make him your friend. When I was a young pup the first thing I learned was buy the sound guy a drink or drop him a $20.00. You'd be surprised as to how good he will make you sound when you have his attention. Just my $0.02. Make him feel like part of the band.

Also, what you sound on stage is never the same as to what you sound in front. Trusting the soung man is key. I've played The House of Bluse, The Vic, The Aragon (Chicago) to name a few small places and I never pay attention to what comes out of the amp. I just plug in and when he says play something I give him my signal and BOOM, Magic.

Another option, do it yourself. I invested in PA gear in my career as a musician just to make sure when we do small gig's this wouldn't happen to me. Again my $0.02

Don't worry bassman, I actually read your posts, processed the information and understood what you were saying. Key points for those who can't keep up.

- "Sound guy" was an inexperienced teenager, not a professional.
- Guitar amp with Volume @ 0.5 hardly produces any sound, let alone anything worth being miced.
- In complete silence, you should be able to hear your guitarist.
-Two years playing out may not be much to most people on these boards, but when you've had good experiences, you have at least a vague idea of what your volume levels should be.

Sounded like a learning experience to me. It's moments like this that mature us as musicians. As musicians we have to learn to play at great acoustical venues and in wood ceiling, concrete floor dance halls. You have to play, just play. Despite all the distractions and hardships you gotta do the gig. An experience with a bad sound man will make you appreciate a good one.

RE: Don't worry bassman, I actually read your posts, processed the information and understood what you were saying. Key points for those who can't keep up.


Thanks at my age I don't have much time to hear stories of how the bad man made my bass sound. If I had the time I'd post a pick of a crying little bitch.

Maybe next time post the entire story and also stop playing with kids, MJ.

My personal opinion is that if you don't bring your own soundman, you have no right to complain when you are given a monkey instead.

If the gig is small and not worth bringing your own soundman, then its not worth complaining about and you should keep your mouth shut and roll with it.

I'm not a soundman, never have been and never want to be. But I do get very tired of seeing bands throw fits and create tension at gigs instead of making music. \

If sound matters, bring a damn soundman. Otherwise, YOU are the one that doesn't care, so don't try to make up for it by yelling at the monkey. When you argue with the monkey you aren't making a situation better, you are only making yourself feel better.

Calm down Fito, I wasn't taking a stab at you. Just the people who kept hounding him after he explained his situation. In fact I agree completely with everything you wrote in your post before mine. It's just that if people are going to respond to something, at least read everything the OP had to say in the thread, not just the first post, because we all forget a detail here and there. Yes the original post isn't very descriptive, but that's no reason to jump on him. The bring your own sound guy is a good idea, but I don't know of many places you could go where the house sound guy is going to willingly give up his spot to someone he doesn't know, who might not be familiar with the room and/or equipment so you can get your sound.

Thanks at my age I don't have much time to hear stories of how the bad man made my bass sound. If I had the time I'd post a pick of a crying little bitch.

Maybe next time post the entire story and also stop playing with kids, MJ.

Wow, good job being a dick dude. Is it really that big of a deal that someone posted a story about a bad time experience with soundman on a forum about Bass Humor and Gig Stories? I'd think someone 'of your age' might be a little more mature.

It used to be kind of funny, another bash the sound guy post. I am starting to get tired of the whining and shifting of blame. The sound guy can't make any band sound much better than they are to begin with, and the soundguy may not be the only reason why a gig sucked.

That's true. But he can also make it sound MUCH worse than they are to begin with.

Been there, heard that. More times than I care to remember. The reality is that sound guys are like musicians - some are incredible, many are proficient, and some just plain suck.

It's entirely possible that if everyone at the venue was complaining during sound check (as the OP has stated) that the sound guy in question did a crappy job.

It's a shame that a bass player can't vent about a bad experience here on Talkbass.

I wonder, does anyone know of a forum where a bass player could go to get a little support from his brethren after such an incident?

I hear your pain bassman, and I'm glad it all worked out in the end.

I have to agree. There is a lot of soundman bashing that goes on in here. Many "musicians" I talk to have no concept of sound reinforcement, balance or presence.

Just because you can "cary a room" with your stage gear doesn't mean it will sound good. YOu need balance and presence. We run everything through the PA - no matter what size the room is. Now, that doesn't mean that everything is cranked. It means that enough sound is sent through to create a nice mixed sound going to the FOH.

For example, we play a small restaurant/bar regularly. We could just mic vocals and get by. We choose to run everything - drums and bass included, in the FOH. All the kick needs is a little bit to give it a presence that you wouldn't get by just pounding on it without it being in the system.

I'm sure there are a number of bad sound guys. I'm equally sure there are a number of idiots playing in bands who think they know everything there is to know about SR. It's really hard to make a band sound good out front if they refuse to work with you.

FOH sound an stage sound are 2 different things. Take it easy on the soundguy.



I am a sound guy and this post is right on the money. 99.99% of bands don't have a clue about live sound reinforcement. Just because you don't hear it on stage doesn't mean they don't hear it out front.

and the same pattern of replies doesn't skip over this thread at all...

:hiding:

I don't think anyone is bashing soundmen in general, any more than one would bash doctors in general. But are there occasionally bad doctors who screw up and malpractice? Sadly, yes. Are there also bad soundmen out there that do a lousy job? Resounding yes! I've been on both sides of the fence as a professional bassist and as the ocassional live soundman and studio engineer, so I have very good perspective on this issue. I've felt the pain of the OP and those who echo his sentiments. A good soundman can bring out the best in a band, even flatter it. But a bad soundman can downright wreck the sound of the band, whether that means with a bad mix or by creating any situation where musicians cannot express themselves freely, completely, or easily. The performing musician need not necessarily have to comprehend every aspect of sound reinforcement for this to happen. We can often recognize a bad teacher without actually being one or being better at it. The same thing goes for doctors, lawyers, landlords, chefs, athletes, painters, parents, elected officials, and even soundmen.

I believe anyone has a right to express his frustration over anyone in any line of work that doesn't do a good job, including soundmen, especially if it impacts us negatively when it shouldn't or doesn't have to be that way.

http://www.commodore.ca/misc/jokes/suck_button.jpg

lmao, you win one internet sir.

I recently helped out a friend's band at a Battle Of The Bands. We were the last band to compete (5th competing, 6th playing) and I had some of the worst sound I can remember. My bass, on its own, sounded fine, and the drums sounded fine, but the two acoustics (one with a pickup, one without), the percussionist and the keyboard were all undermixed. The drummer and I couldn't hear the main guitarist, and the crowd couldn't hear the main guitarist, so essentially the first song was a whole lot of drum and bass with some vocals. It makes it kind of hard to win in a situation like that. Granted, it would have been better if the guitarist had an acoustic pickup, but there was also no communication between the sound people and my band. After the first song I asked if I could please have some (any) guitar in the monitors so that we could at least play the songs.

I'm not normally one to complain, I usually just roll with the punches. The sound for the evening overall, though, was very poor. And the ironic part was that the bands were competing for recording time with the people who were doing sound.