Since I havent been getting much time for hanging onto the bass guitar all day long , and wasting my time playing songs I know for hte twelfth time , I decided to come up with a decent practice routine , specially for scales .

1 I choose a key of the day , moving along hte circle of Fifths , so on the first day , it's C , then G , then D , and so on .

2 I play around with the Ionian mode of that scale , play around with the arpeggio's and generally try to get a feel of the sound of the scales , the intervals , as well as the general position of the scale on hte fretboard in my head . I play it in the standard box pattern , across a single octave and reverse , across multiple octaves , with most of the notes of the second octave being on the G string , across the fret board , in a diagnol pattern , by playing 4 notes on each string , and so on . So basically , abuse the scale over hte fretboard .

3 When I feel I've played with the Major Scale enough , I move onto doing the same things with the Aeolian mode of the key .

4 Conclude it with a rundown of both the modes of the scales .
5 Every 4rth day , do a relaxed session , and revise all the previous scales..... i.e C G D A - E B F# Bb - and so on...

I wanted your advice on whether this method is suffiecient enough for a couple of goals ;

1 Learning the fretboard .
2 Learning the scale , notes of the scale .
3 Learning the various patterns and positions across the scale for playing the modes , and improv.

This approach is a very relaxed approach for me . I actually have fun doing this , and I tried Pacman's method , and it prooved too strenous for me , so I had to tone it down a bit and come up with something less exhausting , and this is what I came up with . What are your opinions over this ??

It'll work for a little while, but once you get to the point where you have it memorized, move onto something else. I'd also work arpeggios in there, too. And then I'd move on to two-octave scales. And once you get those down, move onto something else. Always got to keep the forward momentum, else you get stagnant.

Dude , I mentioned in there that I DO do Arpeggio's.....point no. 2 . And I do mention that I play scales in 2 octave patterns too......I mean....just read it right bro' :P

I plan to have these two forms of scales down before I move onto the other modes , and that might take a while . Plus the music I'm fond of usually revolves around the tonalities of these scales .

Excuse the hell out of me for trying to help. I won't make that mistake again.

If Pacman's method is too grueling, then you should keep working on it until it isn't. There's a reason this method is tough; it's a great learning tool that can help free yourself of the notion of root -> or octave -> root. Read all your descriptions in your post, this is what it sounds like you're doing.

Also, don't forget to practice chord inversions. A C Maj triad can be C-E-G or E-C-G or G-C-E going from lowest to highest tone. Each of these inversions will give a different flavor but you'll still be playing a C Maj triad.

Excuse the hell out of me for trying to help. I won't make that mistake again.
Tetchy :)

I wanted your advice on whether this method is suffiecient enough for a couple of goals ;

1 Learning the fretboard .
2 Learning the scale , notes of the scale .
3 Learning the various patterns and positions across the scale for playing the modes , and improv.

I think that routine will help you achieve those goals, but something more thorough will probably get you there quicker.

That said, my practice/scale routine is dismal. First I will run octaves, then basic finger exercises like the spider in 1-2-3-4 and 1-3-2-4 fret hand patterns, then just play and name each note going up each string to the first twin dot markers (ie, E to E, A to A etc), sometimes to the 2nd (24 fret bass makes that easy enough).

Then I'll run a couple major scales in one or maybe two patterns, usually just F, G or A, first position, then run a basic arpeggio pattern (F, A, C, F, C, A, F etc etc), then 5 minutes in I'll get bored and decide to practice or learn a song instead.

I probably know over a hundred songs from varying genres, some I can nail pretty well, yet I have little idea how or why they work or sound the way they do, and while it frustrates me no end I just can't seem to get into a solid practice routine. I blame it on being between bands and not "having" to improve for anyone other than myself.

So my message is just keep at it and always be on the lookout for exercises that challenge you, else you'll end up stagnant like me :)

Excuse the hell out of me for trying to help. I won't make that mistake again.

That's why I'm keeping my mouth shut. It's a topic constantly covered in depth let him discover the Search button.

Excuse the hell out of me for trying to help. I won't make that mistake again.

+1 Time to zip it up...

Huh ??...Wait no no , I dint mean any offense even in the first place . Christ , I was just asking whether it's ENOUGH for a beginner . The search has got me plenty of advice as far as HOW to practice , but what I'm asking is that is is RIGHT , or will I have to suck it up and do pacmans method for 2 hours a day on the same scale ??

One thing that could be very helpful is to run the scale of your choice around the entire circle of fifths in a day. I'd do ascending as a separate exercise from descending. This has a couple advantages:

1) You use all the keys every day, which should get you familiar with them quicker
2) It's less boring than just choosing one key

Doing this for the scales corresponding to the ii, V7 and I chord in major and the ii-7b5, V7(b9,b13) and i chords in minor would really improve your fretboard knowledge.

Your idea of doing exercises with arpeggios is on the right track too. Good luck!

Well, you could start running through the other 5 modes.

And then work on seeing the entire fretboard as one huge scale - how the modes and pentatonics fit end-on-end to occupy your entire fretboard.

At this point in your learning, you are WAY better off concentrating more on CHORD TONES than scale tones.

what is your main goal? to play bass grooves, or to solo?

I'm assuming you want to start off with grooving, and then graduate to soloing.


Chord tones form the meat of a groove. everything else is more of an embellishment. starting off with scales can get overwhelming, and kind of counterproductive.

now i am not saying you shouldnt be doing scales.

iT WILL BE WAY WAY WAY WAY MORE REWARDING IF YOU SPEND THE TIME HONING YOUR SENSE OF TIME.

(I am actually shouting here, cause many beginners do not seems to get the point of the what a bass is supposed to do..here is quick formula for bass success. Rhythmic support+Harmonic support=bass heaven)

all i am saying is, out of an hours practive, 45 Minutes to chord tones, and rest to scales would be more appropriate. (at this stage)

for example, if you are jaming in a major chord, then a basic groove can formed uing the root, fifth and third. when you got em down cold, then maybe add a sixth. them a fourth. then a 4#. basically pick notes from the Major scale.

If you cannot make the crowd dance with just R, 5, 3, then you are just wasting their time. (and yours)

for minor chords, it'd be root, 5, 3b, 7b. then a 4, then a 4#. basically pick notes from Dorian.

for a dominant scale, Root, 5, 7b, 3, 4, 4#. basically notes from Mixo.

stick to basics.


Also, the biggest advantage of Pacman's approch is moving away from "root based" way of looking at scales.

yuo dont have to do pacman's scalar thing to achieve this result.

you can also cycle through arpeggio inversions.. this will be the same as Pacman's approach, but you are just doing chord tones, and not the whole shebang.

Thanks . Your advice was by far the most helpfull . Although a bit of doubt . When you say 4# you mean the sharped 4rth right ?? Thats basically the only thing that happens in a Lydian scale right ??

I think I'm gonna try your method from now on , since I think it cover's up everything I'm trying to achieve , only in a more chordal approach , which seems to be more practical , than the running up and down scales which I'm doing right now .

Thanks . Your advice was by far the most helpfull . Although a bit of doubt . When you say 4# you mean the sharped 4rth right ?? Thats basically the only thing that happens in a Lydian scale right ??

I think I'm gonna try your method from now on , since I think it cover's up everything I'm trying to achieve , only in a more chordal approach , which seems to be more practical , than the running up and down scales which I'm doing right now .

I wouldn't.

#4 in Dorian? I don't think so.

You would be better off starting by learning the boxes for the basic major scale, three notes per string, like I posted in response to your question in Pacman's thread:

C Ionian

1
G |---|-A-|---|-B-|
D |---|-E-|-F-|---| Form 1
A |---|-B-|-C-|---|
E |-F-|---|-G-|---|

1
|---|-A-|---|-B-|-C-|
|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-| Form 2
|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|
|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|

3
|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|
|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-| Form 3
|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|
|-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-|

5
|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|
|-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-| Form 4
|-D-|---|-E-|-F-|---|
|-A-|---|-B-|-C-|---|

7
|-D-|---|-E-|-F-|
Form 5 |-A-|---|-B-|-C-|
|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|
|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|

8
|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|
Form 6 |---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|
|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|
|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|

10
|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|
Form 7 |-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|
|-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-|
|-D-|---|-E-|-F-|---|

12
|-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-|
Form 8 |-D-|---|-E-|-F-|---|
|-A-|---|-B-|-C-|---|
|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---|

...then learning the seventh chord arpeggios from there (1, 3, 5, 7... in this case C, E, G, B)

Sharpen the fourth to get Lydian
Flatten the seventh to get Mixolydian
Flatten the seventh and third for Dorian
Flatten the seventh, third and sixth for Aeolian

4# (or 5b) isnt exactly a dorian (or a major or a mixolydian) note. It is more of a passing 'Blues' note. It comes from the Blues Scale (which is nothing but a minor pentatonic scale, with a 4# thrown in).

Gives the groove a bluesy feel. but as i said, its a passing tone. Use it with only when you think it sounds good. not all the time..

Here is a post where i had explained the "cycling thru inversions" deal

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4799639#post4799639

First take a chord type (say C7), then practice its arpeggio and its 3 inversions in one postion (try not to shift).

Once you got the patterns down cold for that chord type, start cycling using that chord. use your imagination.

Root to Root (C to F to Bb..).
then do Root to Third
Root to Fifth
Third to Third
Fifth to Fifth..

etc.

etc.

etc.

Do this for all chord types.

it will take about two months. but once this is done, you will ahve a strong grasp of chord tone fundamentals.

And you dont have to keep banging on the tones ding ding ding ding. build a simple groove using the arp or the inversion and cycle.

4# (or 5b) isnt exactly a dorian (or a major or a mixolydian) note. It is more of a passing 'Blues' note. It comes from the Blues Scale (which is nothing but a minor pentatonic scale, with a 4# thrown in).

Gives the groove a bluesy feel. but as i said, its a passing tone. Use it with only when you think it sounds good. not all the time..

It's not always a passing tone, can be a chord tone, can be scale note, approach note descending, Blue notes resolve sometimes are a tension another, a member of a cluster, and on and on. No one size fits all answers in music you always have to look at the context a note or chord is being used.

So this is where I am now in that case :

Everyday I pick a key . Lets take the overabused C as an example . So I start with a few minutes of exercise just involving the scale , just for warmup , a root to root , across multiple octaves exercise of all notes in the C major scale and minor .

Then I move onto the arppregio's of the C chords (maj , Maj7 , min , min7 , dom7) and do them in all the inversions possible , i.e root to root , third to third , fifth to fifth , seventh to seventh . I do this everyday for a different key right ?? This is what your trying to say is it ?? And in this way I will learn to relate the tonalities to that of chords in a song rather than scales....

So this is where I am now in that case :

Everyday I pick a key . Lets take the overabused C as an example . So I start with a few minutes of exercise just involving the scale , just for warmup , a root to root , across multiple octaves exercise of all notes in the C major scale and minor .

In my opinion, that is exactly what you shouldn't be doing. This is one of the first points Pacman makes in his thread.

If you're practicing C major, and you're playing root to root, you're missing a heck of a lot of notes out below the lowest C, plus you'll tend to get hung up on specific positions that don't necessarily translate to when you're playing real music.

If you practice all the positions of C major individually, you'll find that when you go on to other modes, they'll come naturally and finding appropriate passing tones to link chord tones will be simple, whatever inversions you're playing.

With three note per string scales, there are essentially eight positions or forms:

Form 1 includes all the open strings. Say the notes as you play them:

1
G |---|-A-|---|-B-|
D |---|-E-|-F-|---| Form 1
A |---|-B-|-C-|---|
E |-F-|---|-G-|---|


Form 2 has a big stretch between the F and G on the E string. This should ideally be played with the second finger on the G, with the first finger making the stretch:

1
|---|-A-|---|-B-|-C-|
|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-| Form 2
|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|
|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|

And so on through the forms as I posted them above.

What really helps when you play these is to have a reference tone playing at the same time. I used to record myself playing a pedalled C and play over the top of it, or I used to have a cheap keyboard on the floor and hold down a C with my toe.

Once you've gone through the forms, or after practicing each form, do exactly the same thing, but miss out all except the 1, 3, 5, and 7. This way, you're hitting all the inversions:

1
G |---|---|---|-B-|
|---|-E-|---|---| Form 1
|---|-B-|-C-|---|
E |---|---|-G-|---|

1
|---|---|---|-B-|-C-|
|---|-E-|---|---|-G-| Form 2
|---|-B-|-C-|---|---|
|---|---|-G-|---|---|

3
|---|-B-|-C-|---|---|
|---|---|-G-|---|---| Form 3
|-C-|---|---|---|-E-|
|-G-|---|---|---|-B-|

5
|-C-|---|---|---|-E-|
|-G-|---|---|---|-B-| Form 4
|---|---|-E-|---|---|
|---|---|-B-|-C-|---|

7
|---|---|-E-|---|
Form 5 |---|---|-B-|-C-|
|-E-|---|---|-G-|
|-B-|-C-|---|---|

8
|---|-E-|---|---|-G-|
Form 6 |---|-B-|-C-|---|---|
|---|---|-G-|---|---|
|-C-|---|---|---|-E-|
10
|---|---|-G-|---|---|
Form 7 |-C-|---|---|---|-E-|
|-G-|---|---|---|-B-|
|---|---|-E-|---|---|

12
|-G-|---|---|---|-B-|
Form 8 |---|---|-E-|---|---|
|---|---|-B-|-C-|---|
|-E-|---|---|-G-|---|

Remember to say the note names as you play them.

It might at this point be a good idea to just practice C major for a couple of days, then go on to G major for a couple of days, then D major, then A major, back to C major, then F major, then Bb major, so you're learning the most common keys.

Once you've got that under your belt, go back to C major and practice the exercise again. Once you've done that (and you will get through it a lot quicker this time), flatten all the 'B's to 'Bb's, repeat the exercise and you've got the Mixolydian mode and dominant 7 chords.

Then also flatten the 'E's so you've got 'Bb's and 'Eb's and repeat the exercise, giving you the Dorian mode and minor 7 chords.

When you practice the Mixolydian mode, you'll quickly notice that the fingerings seem familiar, if you've already got the Major scale positions internalised:

C Mixolydian

1
G |---|-A-|-Bb|---|
D |---|-E-|-F-|---|
A |-Bb|---|-C-|---|
E |-F-|---|-G-|---|

1
|---|-A-|-Bb|---|-C-|
|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|
|-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|
|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|

3
|-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|
|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|
|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|
|-G-|---|-A-|-Bb|---|

Compare the first three forms of C mixolydian with forms 5, 6 and 7 of the Major scale. They're the same pattern of notes.

Likewise the Dorian mode:

1
|---|-A-|-Bb|---|-C-|
|-Eb|---|-F-|---|-G-|
|-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|
|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|

3
|-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|
|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|
|-C-|---|-D-|-Eb|---|
|-G-|---|-A-|-Bb|---|

5
|-C-|---|-D-|-Eb|
|-G-|---|-A-|-Bb|
|-D-|-Eb|---|-F-|
|-A-|-Bb|---|-C-|

If you've got the major scale internalised, these will feel familiar.

At this point, for very little work, you'll have the Ionian, Mixolydian and Dorian modes mastered, and also the three main chords: major 7, dominant 7 and minor 7.

You'll find at this point that learning new modes becomes exceptionally easy, and that for the next two modes, aeolian and phrygian, you already know the corresponding chords from practicing the Dorian mode.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Yeah , I totally understand your method too Dloyd . But Thats what I initially started off doing . I do understand pacmans of going through the scale starting at different notes throught out the fretboard , just like you have said , but the problem I'm facing with that , which you rectified by having a C note playing under the entire thing , is that I have no base while playing a different mode of the C scale . What happens , and I'm just giving a raw example , is that I start doing it this way , and I get lost somewhere when I start on the A note (A - B - C / D - E - F / G - A - B / C - D - E) because the tone then ending up sounding like a minor scale , with obvious reason , since that is what it's supposed to do . I know that the purpose is to go through the modes while still keeping the 'idea' that your doing a C major scale in your head . but like I mentioned in the Pacman's thread , with simpler scales it's easy (C , D , A , G , F , Bb ) , but when I'm trying to do a Db Major or something , I'm having a hard time remembering the notes in the scale , not to mention trying to keep singing out the notes without saying it wrong , and also trying to figure out hte underlying scale that I am supposed to key in on . All this contributes to a large amount of difficulty and just mental exhaustion . I dont midn doing this technique honestly , but it really just exhausts me bad , and after 4 mins of doing this , I start messing up the notes I'm supposed to be singing , and say something like Eb when I'm supposed to be on Bb , and then have to look at the fretboard , start from the beginning and all that . All in all , I do understand the raw power which this method will give me , but at the cost of my mental state , I really am not being able to grasp anything . I think the way Pacman intended was that someone who tries this method is atleast a level of.....intermediate or something , and basically has some good level of skill with the normal method of scales , whereas I'm a total beginner .

Whew , that was long . Anyways , this is what I've finally figured out , my most optimum method of going through this , hopefully which wont bombard the **** out of everyone's opinion .

1 Pick a key of the day
2 Do a run of the Ionian mode on that key in root-to-root pattern .
3 Do (Maj),(Maj 7),(Maj 7 + 6th),(Maj 7 + 6th + 4th),etc. arpeggio's on that position .
-----------
4 Change position to accomodate the 3rd-to-3rd pattern
5 Do a scale run starting on the 3rd note to the 3rd note .
6 Do all the above stated arpeggios in the inversion where the arpeggio start on the 3rd .
-----------
7 Change position to accomodate the 5th-to-5th pattern
5 Do a scale run starting on the 5th note to the 5th note .
6 Do all the above stated arpeggios in the inversion where the arpeggio start on the 5th .
----------

And along these lines of practice . The way I see it , this method allows me to take in the positioning of the different modes of a scale (starting on different notes) , and gives me a part of the advantage that pacman's methods throws , but when playing , I think in terms of Chord tones , thus giving me the groove mentality of playing but supplimenting my knowledge of different positions I can accomplish the chord on .

Whew again . Is this right ??....I've probably pissed off a lot of people , and I just wanna tell everyone who contributed to this thread that I'm really thankfull for any form of advice you've given . Just hold out a bit longer....:P

What happens , and I'm just giving a raw example , is that I start doing it this way , and I get lost somewhere when I start on the A note (A - B - C / D - E - F / G - A - B / C - D - E) because the tone then ending up sounding like a minor scale , with obvious reason , since that is what it's supposed to do . I know that the purpose is to go through the modes while still keeping the 'idea' that your doing a C major scale in your head

No, it absolutely is not.

.but like I mentioned in the Pacman's thread , with simpler scales it's easy (C , D , A , G , F , Bb ) , but when I'm trying to do a Db Major or something , I'm having a hard time remembering the notes in the scale

Yes, which is why I suggested sticking to those keys to begin with.

I dont midn doing this technique honestly , but it really just exhausts me bad , and after 4 mins of doing this , I start messing up the notes I'm supposed to be singing , and say something like Eb when I'm supposed to be on Bb

The key is to play them slowly, with a metronome or drum machine and to keep at them at the slowest speed until you are comfortable. Then, and only then, progress to faster tempos and more complex key signatures.

Whew , that was long . Anyways , this is what I've finally figured out , my most optimum method of going through this , hopefully which wont bombard the **** out of everyone's opinion .

1 Pick a key of the day
2 Do a run of the Ionian mode on that key in root-to-root pattern .
3 Do (Maj),(Maj 7),(Maj 7 + 6th),(Maj 7 + 6th + 4th),etc. arpeggio's on that position .
-----------
4 Change position to accomodate the 3rd-to-3rd pattern
5 Do a scale run starting on the 3rd note to the 3rd note .
6 Do all the above stated arpeggios in the inversion where the arpeggio start on the 3rd .
-----------
7 Change position to accomodate the 5th-to-5th pattern
5 Do a scale run starting on the 5th note to the 5th note .
6 Do all the above stated arpeggios in the inversion where the arpeggio start on the 5th .
----------

And along these lines of practice . The way I see it , this method allows me to take in the positioning of the different modes of a scale (starting on different notes) , and gives me a part of the advantage that pacman's methods throws , but when playing , I think in terms of Chord tones , thus giving me the groove mentality of playing but supplimenting my knowledge of different positions I can accomplish the chord on .

Whew again . Is this right ??....I've probably pissed off a lot of people , and I just wanna tell everyone who contributed to this thread that I'm really thankfull for any form of advice you've given . Just hold out a bit longer....:P

Well, it looks like you've chosen a method that seems easier to you. It probably will be for the time being.

I hope it works out for you.

magnus

pm me you email id and i'll send you an exercise sheet i have