Since I was able to do it, I've liked to add "spits" (deadened string sounds) and triplets to my walking lines. I can usually do it without messing up the feel or tempo (too much).

I've talked to other players who dismiss this as gimmickry and go for the "pure" 4/4.

Any thoughts about this?

Like anything else, if it's overdone it will quickly become a cliche, BUT in the right place, at the right time it will sound great. Just when the listener is not quite expecting it usually works the best...

- Wil

Yeah.

I like to think that I do it as the music calls for it -- I certainly do it a lot less now at 40 than I did at 25. As you get older, I guess you tend to play with more self-editing (read: you don't want to work as hard).

I enjoy rhythmic activity. I grew up listening to guys like Stafford James, Ron Carter and Stan Clarke, who all rip and pop lots. For me, it's just part of the conversation . . . as Ed says, you can't force the groove, but I do like to put my two cents in.

I would say that if there is even the slightest chance of "messing up" the feel or tempo, don't do it! Those are the last thing you want to screw up when playing bass in jazz!

I guess it depends on what you're playing, too. If you're ripping out all these notes during the trumpet player's solo, he isn't likely to be too impressed.

Nevertheless, if you can pull it off, it sounds good and doesn't step on any toes, why not?

It's funny how this topic fits properly under the 'Technique' thread instead of 'Music' :)

Originally posted by Mike Goodbar
Since I was able to do it, I've liked to add "spits" (deadened string sounds) and triplets to my walking lines. I can usually do it without messing up the feel or tempo (too much).

I've talked to other players who dismiss this as gimmickry and go for the "pure" 4/4.

Any thoughts about this?


In my opinion, the key word in this whole topic is in the thread title: EMBELLISHING. The whole ghost-note issue in bass lines is kind of like the concept of clothes on a model....you can take a beautiful model and dress him/her in ugly assed clothes, and the result looks like a beautiful person wearing the $#!% out of some clothes. By the same token, you can take the world's best looking clothes and put them on an out of shape and not terribly attractive model, and the result will be....well...out of shape and not terribly attractive.

The point - as Ed and others have mentioned - is that in cases like this, it's better to focus on the figure of the model before worrying about how you're going to dress the model. Michelle Pfeiffer is going to look gorgeous in dirty overalls and rubber wading boots, while Roseanne Barr is going to like like, uh, Roseanne Barr even in Versace.

Having said that, the best of all possible worlds is having a gorgeous model (i.e. - a solid walking line time feel with only quarter notes) and a closet full of various styles of clothes (i.e. - embellishment techniques) with which to dress it.

Theres a very useful book on the subject by Mike Richmond, called "Modern Walking Bass Technique".

After playing through some of these exercises, I realized quickly just how sloppy a player I was.

--cs

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
you can't make stuff happen, you have to let stuff happen.

I could not agree more!!!

I think its really important to develop a "conversation" within the rhythm seciton. For example, if the piano player accents a triplet figure in their playing, try to incorperate that into your playing a few bars later. Its really cool to hear. I recently attended a rhythm section clinic with sherry miracle (the drummer for the big band "DIVA") and she really accented this point while we were playing.

I think that these techniques should be learned and then tucked away like a Swiss Army Knife. They aren't useful everyday, but sometimes there's an occasion when it's just the right tool.


PS- Ever try this technique? Works real good on the G string, say for the sake of argument at the 5th 'fret'


O-HO-PU-O-HO-PU

- that's open string, hammer-on, Pull-off, etc.

The open string is struck with a hard downard strike that turns into a pluck, the hammer on is done percussively with the left hand and the pull off note is your hammered note pulling into an open string again.

If you do it fast and strong, it has a cool sound like a basketball being dribbled. it kind of goes paTINka paTINka paTINka. Lots of fun and a neat accent that helps you find your position accurately before a solo, and is loud enough and interesting enough to mark the entrance to the bass solo. I use it rarely, but when I do it ususally works very well. Those little quirks are charming, but needless to say some cats just have nothing but gimmick, and that ain't cool. Heck, some cats just play too many notes because they can. Yuk.


-Con Trabajo

I should have been more clear. I somewhat botched that technique.


The open string should just be a sideways pluck, not a strike. The pluck needs to give the string enough energy to make a percussive slap when you do the hammer-on. Then, the Pull-off note is done with the same finger that did the hammer-on.

Try it three times, and sustain the hammer-on the third time. Makes a nice intro for a solo on that note.

it sort of goes

paTINka paTINka paTINGGgggggg
real fast..... Sounds like crap if it's slow.

-Con Trabajo

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Michelle Pfeiffer is going to look gorgeous in dirty overalls and rubber wading boots, while Roseanne Barr is going to like like, uh, Roseanne Barr even in Versace.

Having said that, the best of all possible worlds is having a gorgeous model and a closet full of various styles of clothes with which to dress it.

Isn't this blatant sexism , or agism or shapism - :eek:

Some people might not be interested in Michelle Pfeiffer and might prefer Sophie Dahl at her most Rubenesque! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and entirely subjective - never mind the argument that true beauty come from within and how about accepting people for themsleves and being who they are......and aren't most models messed up anorexics/bulemics who are mostly into hard drugs, exploited and manipulated by men and the industry and are hardly role models or the "ideal" to which anybody ought to aspire?

Hmmm....I think this opens up a whole can of worms, while putting your foot in it, with a potential superfluous surfeit of mixed metaphors and erroneous allegories! :D

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Having said that, the best of all possible worlds is having a gorgeous model and a closet full of various styles of clothes with which to dress it.

Man that's a terrible analogy. I'd much rather have a closet full of gorgeous chicks with only one outfit to dress them in.

I'd rather have a closet full of gorgeous chicks and no outfits to dress them in.

-Con Trabajo


Quote-

Man that's a terrible analogy. I'd much rather have a closet full of gorgeous chicks with only one outfit to dress them in.

I would reply to all of this in earnest, but I have the sneaking suspicion that you all knew exactly what I meant with my somewhat whimsical analogy and are now just being a bunch of BUTTHEADS for the fun of it. :mad:

I think I'll just take my gorgeous model and go home. :)

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
I think I'll just take my gorgeous model and go home. :)

Fine, be that way... but how much fun can you have with a mannequin?:eek:

Originally posted by David Kaczorowski


Fine, be that way... but how much fun can you have with a mannequin?:eek:

Are we talking : the blow-up variety here.....with attachments! :eek:

I knew when I read..."O-HO-PU-O-HO-PU" that this thread was going to the gutter.

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
I would reply to all of this in earnest, but I have the sneaking suspicion that you all knew exactly what I meant with my somewhat whimsical analogy and are now just being a bunch of BUTTHEADS for the fun of it. :mad:

I think I'll just take my gorgeous model and go home. :)

How's the wife gonna feel about that?

Originally posted by JIZZBLOW


How's the wife gonna feel about that?



About the fact that I'm taking her home? I imagine it won't be a problem. No complaints about my choice of spouse here. :)

Nice save, Chris.

Originally posted by Mike Goodbar
Nice save, Chris.


Thanks. Mama didn't raise no dummies....

Originally posted by Mike Goodbar
Since I was able to do it, I've liked to add "spits" (deadened string sounds) and triplets to my walking lines. I can usually do it without messing up the feel or tempo (too much).

I've talked to other players who dismiss this as gimmickry and go for the "pure" 4/4.

Any thoughts about this?

Let me direct you to the best lousy recording ever made: Lee Konitz Live at the Half Note - Verve 314 521 659-2. How's this band: Konitz, Warne Marsh, Bill Evans, Jimmy Garrison, Paul Motian. Recorded in 1959.
It's a 'lousy' recording in this respect - it was a tape made from one microphone. Every time Evans soloed, you can hear him and Garrison get louder as they move the mic closer to the piano, then back out front for the horns.
It shows two things.
1. Garrison has no amp. Despite the lighter sound and the cheesy reproduction, you can still feel the visceral throb that comes from unamplified bass, that something that is lost immediately when an amp is used.
2, and to Mike's point, the young Garrison just lays down 4 quarters to every bar the whole night, and the groove is just amazing. You can't not love the feeling.

OK, a bit of hyperbole at the start, but this recording is 2 CD's worth of graduate theory that swings like mad. And you will learn what a genius Tristano was when you hear his heads.

Don't turn up your nose, you're blocking the sunlight.

Maybe your reply was lighthearted, but on the off chance it wasn't I should point out that your inability to perform a technique does not condemn the thread it is in "to the gutter" as you so eloquently put it.

Maybe a moderator needs to come along and quench out any life or humor in these threads before they all wind up "in the gutter".

While we're at it we can get the moderator to sniff out anyone in the DB forum who has ever picked up an electric bass, and we can then heard all the slab players into the other side.

Let me point one thing out - This is a WEB based forum, ie, you don't have to download long USENET news feeds when the posts get long, you simply ignore non-interesting threads and they don't take up any space except on the server, which was designed to house them.

If you want to first decry the merit of a thread or a member's contribution, then do so by adding what could only be construed as further clatter to the thread, it is slightly hypocritical, unless you were being lighthearted and I missed it.

Vic Wooten said it best, bass players are a special bunch of folks and we don't have animocities towards each other like a lot of other musicians do. I hope in the future we can be a little less snobby around here lest people fell like there is no use in even lurking.

-Con Trabajo


Originally posted by farmerdude
I knew when I read..."O-HO-PU-O-HO-PU" that this thread was going to the gutter.

woh now....just think alternate meanings for those words;)

Fight, fight! I knew it would come to blows when I saw the DBers discussing approaches to walking basslines - always happens!

They're just so much more unruly than BG players! :rolleyes:

I hung out at Ohopuohopu Beach just last weekend...:cool:

Originally posted by Marcus Johnson
I hung out at Ohopuohopu Beach just last weekend...:cool:

Yeah I went to summer camp there.

the phrase that springs to my mind is "you cant polish a turd"

i got that from a studio engineer in one of my bands in referrence to a crap recording and the notion of fixing in the mix, but it sounds to me like it applies to the idea of adding embellishments to a bass lines in an attempt to make it groove equally well

thass all :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Howard K
the phrase that springs to my mind is "you cant polish a turd"

i got that from a studio engineer in one of my bands in referrence to a crap recording and the notion of fixing in the mix, but it sounds to me like it applies to the idea of adding embellishments to a bass lines in an attempt to make it groove equally well

thass all :rolleyes:

Took you a year to come up with that?

;)

wanted to let u guys know that bassists seem to be funnier people than trombonists. i'm a 1 yr transplant to the dark side (from the slide side). there is nothing like this going on at the online trombone journal...
i've played from the mitch ___ bassline book & my own lines got too embellished, wanting to stick all that fancy stuff in...not good in a beginner's hands!

Is it possible to polish a trombone?

no, but my Christopher's pretty shiny...

So, to jump to a logical conclusion, a turd and a trombone are alot alike.

Originally posted by TARRISONFORD
So, to jump to a logical conclusion, a turd and a trombone are alot alike.


Where's the "jump"?

Originally posted by Don Higdon
the young Garrison just lays down 4 quarters to every bar the whole night, and the groove is just amazing. You can't not love the feeling.

It's interesting you should use Jimmy Garrison as your example. Lately I've been checking out his lines on the Trane disc w/ Johnny Hartman and to a big extent his approach is very opposite from what you described above. Yet on other things with Trane he lays down the steady 4-- Crescent, Chasin' the Trane, Impressions, etc., things that already have a lot going on. I think the contrast demonstrates that it's important to be able to do it all well (ie. walk straight quarters vs. syncoptate, embellish, etc.), and to listen acutely and supply what the music needs. To a large extent what the drummer plays, or doesn't, suggests how much the bass can stretch out.

Originally posted by markr
no, but my Christopher's pretty shiny...

That's what you call yours huh? Well, you shouldn't "polish" it too much, or apparently you'll go blind.

In my opinion, its all dependent on what you are embellishing. If you are embellishing a walking line, then forget it. If, however, you are embellishing the music that is a different matter. Theres nothing worse than hearing a bass player cover up poor walking with little tricks here and there.

Its sometimes nice to add a little embellishment when leading into the B/C/D etc section of a piece but only if the music is heading in that kinda direction. Its important to be a musician first and a bass player second.

Bump.