I loathe making posts in this part of the forum, because I can never seem to get the wording of the questions right and always feel like I've wasted somebodys' time :(. Still, I'm feeling bold today :p.

What I'm struggling to understand, is how all of the knowledge of scales, which I'm currently trying to cram into my head, can actually be applied in a composition/jam situation, unless you know which chords are actually being played!? Furthermore, what happens if you (the bass player) are the one who has to kick things off with a "song idea" - where do you start and how concious are you of scales, compared to just playing "a line" :confused:?

I mean, if you play in the kind of bands that I've been in previously (i.e. crap ones :p), where even the guitarist doesn't know what chord he's playing (you know the type, where they hold down 4 strings at random to make an "interesting" noise :rolleyes: ) and you can't recognise the chord by ear, what options have you got, aside from reverting to "just making up something that fits"? :(

How does it work when you're jamming, as well? Do you instantly recognise complete guitar chords (i.e. the "chord family" and not just the root note?) by their sound and then play selected notes from that scale? Or, do you have to discuss with the guitarist/keyboard player etc. just exactly which chords they will be playing and then sit down and work out a bassline on a score sheet?

I've never been lucky enough to spend any time around, what I would term "proper musicians" :hmm:. Everybody I have ever made "music" ;) with, has been of the "make it up as you go along" school of music. Consequently, I'm wondering "how the other half live" ;)?

I am paying for a professional teacher now and am picking up good hints on technique and am learning to improve my reading skills, as well as playing through some farily complex scores :). The thing is, time is short in our lessons and we have a small language barrier problem too, so it's not really appropriate for me to quiz him about all of this.

So, I guess that I'd like to hear from you guys, just how you go about creating your basslines for original compositions, or when you have to fill-in on a song that you haven't learnt from the original sheet music?

Sorry, it's such a "newbie" question and I'm sure that variations on this topic come up every day, here :hmm:. Please take pity on me and give me a few encouraging pointers, as to what I should be trying to achieve through my theory studies ;) !?

Thanks, in advance!

Regardless of your knowledge, in the end your lines have to sound good. It is possible to create a line that is the 'proper' scale and all that 'goes with' the chord, and have it still sound boring.

But to answer your question more directly. I would just sing a line that felt good and play that line on bass. For instance, say you have a phrase that is in C major. You start off with C and it sounds fine. The next time this phrase repeats it just might be a cool sound to play an A (thereby changing the chord from C to Am7). If you 'know' the chord is supposed to be C, you might just not consider playing an A.

Theory, while it is a a helpful tool (and I know this, I have 2 degress in music) is only a tool. Experiment and trust your ear.

It's pretty fundamental that you know the chords in the song in order to know what to play and avoid hitting wrong notes. Anyway, if you don't have them written down on a paper or memorized in your head, you need to be familiar with as many common and less common chord progressions as possible, and carefully listen to the melody so you can anticipate what chord will be played next. If there is no clear melody (like in an instrumental jam with only solos), it can be a bit tougher, though.

The ability to recognize chord progressions usually comes naturally by playing lots and lots of different music. Anyway, if a song is completely new to you, I think it is not too much asked to get a paper with the chords, unless it is a common 12-bar blues or something equally simple that everyone should know.... :)

When jamming, I don't think too much of what I'm actually playing. It comes sort of naturally... :) I think that I more or less subconsciously listen to the chord harmony and ask myself questions like:
- Is the chord now played a major, minor or major dominant chord?
- What about added "spices" like the 9th, b9, #9, 11, #11 or 13?
- What scale(s) fits over this chord (or song)? Major, minor, Blues/Penta, Dorian, Mixolydian, other? (The mentioned ones are the ones I know best)
- What notes should I avoid?
- Are there any particularly important notes?
- What about chromatic passages?
- What's the best way to lead into the next chord?

That's about my approach. The singing approach as mentioned above is good advice too.

It's pretty fundamental that you know the chords in the song in order to know what to play and avoid hitting wrong notes. Anyway, if you don't have them written down on a paper or memorized in your head, you need to be familiar with as many common and less common chord progressions as possible, and carefully listen to the melody so you can anticipate what chord will be played next. If there is no clear melody (like in an instrumental jam with only solos), it can be a bit tougher, though.

The ability to recognize chord progressions usually comes naturally by playing lots and lots of different music. Anyway, if a song is completely new to you, I think it is not too much asked to get a paper with the chords, unless it is a common 12-bar blues or something equally simple that everyone should know.... :)

When jamming, I don't think too much of what I'm actually playing. It comes sort of naturally... :) I think that I more or less subconsciously listen to the chord harmony and ask myself questions like:
- Is the chord now played a major, minor or major dominant chord?
- What about added "spices" like the 9th, b9, #9, 11, #11 or 13?
- What scale(s) fits over this chord (or song)? Major, minor, Blues/Penta, Dorian, Mixolydian, other? (The mentioned ones are the ones I know best)
- What notes should I avoid?
- Are there any particularly important notes?
- What about chromatic passages?
- What's the best way to lead into the next chord?

That's about my approach. The singing approach as mentioned above is good advice too.


:hmm: Well, that all sounds rather daunting, but I appreciate your input ;).

Maybe I'd be better off just spending time with some ear-training software, to recognise (first) intervals and then, chords :hmm:? I find it really difficult to find anything other than m2nd, M2nd, 4th, 5th and 7th notes "on the fly" now (even after 20 years of playing :().

Sounds like this theory knowledge isn't going to benefit me a great deal, if I have no "ear" for it!?

:( (lost and confused)

Nothing is going to happen instantly man.
Everything you do will have an impact on your playing development. You're not going to learn a scale and immediately start using that scale in your everyday playing. But if you just kind of let yourself loosen up and play what you think naturally sounds good, I think you'll find yourself saying "hey, that works off of the Dorian scale I learned!"

The more styles you jam, the more theory you learn.. it all helps, it's just the tangled web you weave in your learning vs playing process. Just don't overthink it.. your learned theory isn't going to jump out at you in the first opportunity, but the more and more you experiment, the more it will all start tying together.

I find it takes forever for new theory to be implemented into my compositions, but when it clicks.. it clicks. There is a such thing as "being yourself" musically and I think that's the most important thing you can do.


Just have fun!

a handy hint is:

if it's a guitarist-led 'jam', you're in E minor

:)

a handy hint is:

if it's a guitarist-led 'jam', you're in E minor

:)

:p Fantastic!

I'm off to burn my books and sack my teacher :D.

;)

Root fifth octave baby
Unles you are running across diminished or augmented chords stick to root fifth octave and you wont have to worry about clashing tonalities. There is quite a bit you can do with those three notes, especially if you think more rhythmically and using rests/space.

Bass-lines in come from scales. Take bass lines you know and you should be able to guess the scale it came from. If you know the chord that will help a lot, if not look for chord tones in the bass line. A good starting point is most young player and rock bass the first note is the root of the chord. All this requires a pretty good knowledge of scale construction and chords to reverse engineer but not too bad. Do this to a few lines till you start seeing how the lines came from scale.

As for starting things off again if you know scales, and then harmonized scales you have the common chords available to you. Here is another place to take the songs you already know and see how they fit on the harmonized scale. The chord progressions most songs use are fairly common. So once you know a handful of songs and have analyzed their chord progressions you now have some possible chord movements to use when you kick off a song.

A lot of guys jump into learning theory, scales, and etc and learn it in the abstract. They are taught using classical music examples or some lame example tossed together for a book. Start by looking at that stuff to get feel for it, but then take the music you already know and see where you can find examples of what the books are teaching. If you have a teacher then ask him for help that's what your paying for. He should be able to give you example or say that doesn't get used in XYZ music, more in ABC music. When you see theory/hear theory come alive in music you like it sticks more in the brain.

Also you said you have a language barrier with your teacher, see if he is okay with emailing him questions now and then. I do that and it is cool I can write it out so they can read and re-read then take their time answering or have the answer at the next lesson. Email is great because no pressure to explain question quick or for teacher to answer quick.

first off, "just making up something that fits" is the best thing you could possibly do. as you get more comfortable with theory, you'll be able to make up cooler stuff that fits more easily. and unless you're playing for a paying audience (and even then sometimes) wrong notes are not the end of the world. sometimes i get my best ideas from "wrong notes"

I actually prefer to NOT knowing what the guitarist (or other musician) is doing when I write basslines to other peoples' songs / riffs. I find if I know what they are playing I find I unintentionally use theory to work out the line, which I sometimes find limiting / lazy. I'd much rather work it out blind, searching for a melody / counterpart that is interesting and fulfilling, rather than one that makes rational sense.

Just jump in and work hard!

Good luck!

how you go about creating your basslines for original compositions, or when you have to fill-in on a song that you haven't learnt from the original sheet music?

to create a bassline by ear you need to know your scale/chord relationships and have the ability to recognize common chord progressions.

your ability to recognize common chord progressions developes by learning a lot of songs. and spending some time picking them apart functionally.

My sig has a good link for study

I won't quote any of the previous replies in this post, as they're all thought-provoking and interetsing and I don't want to "leave anyone out" ;).

I think that I'm beginning to realise a big part of the problem, that I hadn't really thought much about before, but now it seems pretty obvious :hmm:....

The kind of bassists whose work I'm looking at and asking myself; "Just how did they do that"?, are people of the calibre of James Jamerson, Verdine White, Nate Watts and Mark King :bassist:. In other words, I'm aiming ridiculously high, when it comes to understanding how bassists compose their basslines. I think that perhaps I should be looking at "beat combos" from the '60s, more traditional C&W artists, or even the blues (although I'm a bit sick of that genre from my many years as a guitarist :spit: :p), in order to see how music theory can be applied to writing bass parts.

I guess all that I can do is keep plugging away at learning "the small stuff" and try and apply more simply, at first.

Thanks to all of you for the time and thought that went into your posts - it's all much appreciated :smug:!

:bassist:

While you're concentrating on the scales and making the bass line interesting - make sure you're still listening to the drums. :D

I've found that I'll sit down with the guitarists and come up with some cool stuff - but later on, the line totally changes when we practice with the drummer. Drums can be inspirational or a hold-up. Hopefully you have a good drummer who can hear what you're trying to do and doesn't assume you're supposed to follow him. ;)

While you're concentrating on the scales and making the bass line interesting - make sure you're still listening to the drums. :D


ha very true

When I hear a chord I can usually recognize it straight away. Often I'll start playing the root of the chord with accents, and then when the drums come in I start building a proper bassline.

However when I get tasked with "hey come up with something" I start a simple little riff thats easy to play along to, and once everyone is in the swing of things I start branching out doing more things such as fills.

Order of things you should pay attention to:

-You! Timing is key and don't be afraid to do variations of the same thing over and over again so long as you don't do long winded excursions that leave everyone lost and confused

-Drums! The Drummer is your best friend and your rhythm section mate. Depending on the drummer he'll either follow what your doing or *gulp* make you follow him. If he follows you or goes along the same line of thinking, its easier to play off of him and make better lines.

-Keyboard! Make sure his left hand doesn't drift into your range. This can make even your most awesome jam sound like mud.

-Guitar! Follow his chord changes. If you're not good at following chords by ear, learn to recognize what he's playing on site. (This hand shape means he's probably playing a C etc)

-Everything else! Every band is different so there are probably dozens of other instruments that could be in your band from bagpipes to banjos. Use your good judgment accordingly.

-Drums! The Drummer is your best friend and your rhythm section mate. Depending on the drummer he'll either follow what your doing or *gulp* make you follow him. If he follows you or goes along the same line of thinking, its easier to play off of him and make better lines.Once you and the drummer have set a groove down - make sure he remembers his part! If he's one of those guys who plays something different every time he sits down, then your part may have to change as well, resulting in something totally different. Not a bad thing in the exploratory stages of a song, but sooner or later your gonna want to start cementing a part down.

As far as jams - let your ears guide you. They are your best friend! Theory is for explaining what you did after you done it. Once you know more theory then go ahead and try out some of the stuff you're learning in your jams. It's a balance.

learn what the chords look like is my first step.

the main ones are E, Em, A, Am, G, D, Dmin and C. Pretty much anything else and he's playing a barre or power chord and you can figure out the root from where he is. the you look at his hands to see what you're playing.

Other than that, Decon Blues has a similar approach to what i do.

Learn your minor and major pentatonics, they are you're starting points. learn the chromatic runs that fit nicely with each. for starters (either but better with minor 4,b5,5. or b7,7,1. major 2,b3,3.)

And just when you think you're set. then try jamming with 2 guitarist neither of which know what they're doing!!!!

Try listing to some flea/fruschante jams for ideas of how to work your way in and out of chord structures/ scales