I've wondered for a long time now how many jazz players get "outside" the main key center when soloing. Think Jeff Berlin, Bill Dickens, Felix Pastorius, John Coltrane etc. So I thought I'd compile some tips that people could add to whenever they think of a new idea, which would eventually turn into a list of ideas people can use when soloing (so they don't get stuck in a rut using the pentatonic minor scale and major scale modes ;))

If you do add anything to the thread, try and include an example so more people can understand your idea.

The first 5 of these I've figured out myself through experimentation, the last one I read somewhere on TB.

1. Play the whole tone scale (R, 2, 3, #4, #5, b7, R2) over dominant 7th chords eg. over Bb7, play the Bb whole tone scale (Bb, C, D, E, Gb, Ab, Bb). This could be used in Jaco Pastorius' "The Chicken"

2. Play the jazz melodic minor (same both ascending and descending) scale over m7 chords using the natural 7 as tension against the b7 ofter the m7 chord releasing to the root note or b7 of the chord. Mix this in with the dorian mode (R, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7, R2) for a bebop scale effect. An example of this substitution is, over Cm, playing B (the natural 7).

3. Over a m7 chord, play the descending chromatic pattern, 4, 3, b3 eg. over Cm7, play F, E, Eb. This implies the minor bebop scale.

4. Play the mixolydian #4 (Lydian b7) scale over m7 chords. The scale is R, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, b7, R2. The tritone interval (b5/#4) gives a jazzy sound. The major 3rd should be used as a passing chromatic tone aiming for a target note such as a minor 3rd. This could be a slide from the major to minor. Be careful with the major 3rd against the minor 3rd, don't sit on it!

5. In a minor chord sequence, when the V7 (5th) (often substituted for an augmented chord) chord of the sequence arises (usually before the sequence returns to the root), play the diminished arpeggio or whole/half diminished scale a semitone below the root of the key. Example, in this chord sequence:

¦Am¦-¦Dm7¦-¦E7/Eaug¦-¦Am9¦ (I, IV, V, I)

play the diminished arpeggio a semitone below A (G#) over the E7/E augmented chord. The arpeggio is G#, B, D, F, G# etc.

6. Play the altered (superlocrian) scale (R, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7, R2) a semitone below the root of a minor chord. This may sound very weird but any note works if you play it fast enough. Example, the basic Am chord contains these notes: A, C, E, all of which are in the G# whole tone scale, but the other notes make it sound "outside".

Keep on adding!!!

James

Cool idea for a thread, thanks.

Just a few minor points. In #2, this scale is probably better called a Harmonic Minor rather than making some alteration to the melodic minor scale.

I'm a little confused about #5. A diminished chord a half step below tonic is the dominant chord minus the root. Of course what you are suggesting works great, but I'm not sure about the extra mental step in figuring the diminished chord verus just playing the dominant chord.

Thanks again.

Cool idea for a thread, thanks.

Just a few minor points. In #2, this scale is probably better called a Harmonic Minor rather than making some alteration to the melodic minor scale.

I'm a little confused about #5. A diminished chord a half step below tonic is the dominant chord minus the root. Of course what you are suggesting works great, but I'm not sure about the extra mental step in figuring the diminished chord verus just playing the dominant chord.

Thanks again.

Tip 2 isn't harmonic minor because it (the melodic minor scale) contains a natural 6, whereas the harmonic minor contains a flattened 6th. My point in writing melodic minor was to emphasize the fact of mixing the dorian with melodic produces a jazzy sound and that when both scales are used together, you have a flat 7 and a natural 7 as a chromaticism.

You missed my point on tip 5. I said play the Diminished SCALE :) when the V7 or V augmented arises, not the chord a semitone below the root.

What is one person's outside scale is another inside sound. When as you listen/play music your ears develop. The key word is listening. So to young player mainly using pentataonics a Wholetone scale might tug on their ear. Where to me Wholetone is tame. It is a scale for dominant chords with altered 5th's.

Also something I read in threads and will comment on. Many look at scales thing okay the chord symbol is C7 so I play Mixolydian or chord is C7 b9 so I play Dimmish half-whole. Those are right, but also as a soloist you also imply sounds/colors that aren't in the chord. A lead sheet might say C7, but if I feel it would fit I might play wholetone scale to add some tension with the b5 and b13 (#5) and then resolve with chord tones. Point is don't get locked in to chord/scale as Law, they are things that work, but you can use other scales if you want to imply a different sound. our job is the practice the scale and learn the different sounds so you know which to use for the sound you want to get out.

Rather than type everything again, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the following discussions:
This (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=297785)
that (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198165)
the other thing (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195152)
Yet more (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205477)

and again (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151576)

last but not least (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119942)

What is one person's outside scale is another inside sound. When as you listen/play music your ears develop. The key word is listening. So to young player mainly using pentataonics a Wholetone scale might tug on their ear. Where to me Wholetone is tame. It is a scale for dominant chords with altered 5th's.

Also something I read in threads and will comment on. Many look at scales thing okay the chord symbol is C7 so I play Mixolydian or chord is C7 b9 so I play Dimmish half-whole. Those are right, but also as a soloist you also imply sounds/colors that aren't in the chord. A lead sheet might say C7, but if I feel it would fit I might play wholetone scale to add some tension with the b5 and b13 (#5) and then resolve with chord tones. Point is don't get locked in to chord/scale as Law, they are things that work, but you can use other scales if you want to imply a different sound. our job is the practice the scale and learn the different sounds so you know which to use for the sound you want to get out.

I totally agree that your ear and recognising which scales/modes etc. at which points are important. It's just that this was intended to be a resource for those that aren't at that level yet like me :)

James

Rather than type everything again, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the following discussions:
This (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=297785)
that (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198165)
the other thing (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195152)
Yet more (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205477)

and again (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151576)

last but not least (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119942)

I agree that this topic has been discussed in detail elsewhere. I thought it would be a good idea to have it all in one place. Thanks for the links too, when people view this thread, they can now check those to get some more ideas :D

James

A lead sheet might say C7, but if I feel it would fit I might play wholetone scale to add some tension with the b5 and b13 (#5) and then resolve with chord tones. Point is don't get locked in to chord/scale as Law, they are things that work, but you can use other scales if you want to imply a different sound.

Well said. Dominant chords, and also minor chords to a lesser extent, are where most of the fun "outside" stuff happens in jazz. If your upper extensions on a dominant chord differ a little from what somebody else is playing, it can make people's ears perk up.

A couple of corrections to offer regarding the original post:

In point #4, you said that Lydian b7 works on minor 7 chords. Generally, this scale is only used on dominant 7 chords (especially when the dominant is NOT followed by the tonic, i.e. not V-I).

In point #5, you suggest using a diminished chord starting a half step below the root of the key on dominant chords in minor keys. That is absolutely correct, as this diminished chord is just a natural sub for the V chord. However, the proper diminished SCALE to go with that sub would be whole/half, (if starting a half step below the root of the key), not half/whole as stated.

Remember, in all this discussion of scales, that knowing which "hip" outside scales to play doesn't mean your improv is going to sound musical. You need to learn some specific licks for each of these scales in order to make them work. The best examples of these kinds of licks I've seen are in Carol Kaye's Jazz Improv books. www.carolkaye.com

Well said. Dominant chords, and also minor chords to a lesser extent, are where most of the fun "outside" stuff happens in jazz. If your upper extensions on a dominant chord differ a little from what somebody else is playing, it can make people's ears perk up.

A couple of corrections to offer regarding the original post:

In point #4, you said that Lydian b7 works on minor 7 chords. Generally, this scale is only used on dominant 7 chords (especially when the dominant is NOT followed by the tonic, i.e. not V-I).

In point #5, you suggest using a diminished chord starting a half step below the root of the key on dominant chords in minor keys. That is absolutely correct, as this diminished chord is just a natural sub for the V chord. However, the proper diminished SCALE to go with that sub would be whole/half, (if starting a half step below the root of the key), not half/whole as stated.

Remember, in all this discussion of scales, that knowing which "hip" outside scales to play doesn't mean your improv is going to sound musical. You need to learn some specific licks for each of these scales in order to make them work. The best examples of these kinds of licks I've seen are in Carol Kaye's Jazz Improv books. www.carolkaye.com

Correction noted but I still prefer using the half/whole scale, that way you don't have the b2 of the tonic note in the chord sequence (in this case Am) in the scale when you start a semitone below the tonic.

To MY ear, and I stress the importance of the fact that this is MY ear not everyone else's, the Lydian b7 can sound quite interesting over minor 7th chords because you have the b5 and the natural 3rd against the b3 of the minor 7th chord.

James

To MY ear, and I stress the importance of the fact that this is MY ear not everyone else's, the Lydian b7 can sound quite interesting over minor 7th chords because you have the b5 and the natural 3rd against the b3 of the minor 7th chord.

James

Its more than your ear and with so many new to improv they need to know that there is more to it than just saying play Lydian b7 or a Bebop minor against a mi7 chord. That to use the maj3rd in either of those scale against a minor chord requires special handling, articulation. If they just see that statement and try that at a jam and sit on the maj3rd it will suck and they get put off with all this improv talk. They probably don't know yet the maj3rd needs to be on a upbeat as part of a phrase to sound good.

Its more than your ear and with so many new to improv they need to know that there is more to it than just saying play Lydian b7 or a Bebop minor against a mi7 chord. That to use the maj3rd in either of those scale against a minor chord requires special handling, articulation. If they just see that statement and try that at a jam and sit on the maj3rd it will suck and they get put off with all this improv talk. They probably don't know yet the maj3rd needs to be on a upbeat as part of a phrase to sound good.

I've changed the statement to include that the major 3rd should be used as a passing chromatic tone aiming for a target note such as a minor 3rd. This could be a slide from the major to minor.

James

Correction noted but I still prefer using the half/whole scale, that way you don't have the b2 of the tonic note in the chord sequence (in this case Am) in the scale when you start a semitone below the tonic.

To MY ear, and I stress the importance of the fact that this is MY ear not everyone else's, the Lydian b7 can sound quite interesting over minor 7th chords because you have the b5 and the natural 3rd against the b3 of the minor 7th chord.

Well, okay the title of this thread is "outside" scales, so I guess anything goes! ;) The reasons I wouldn't use the above suggested scales are because: 1) Half/whole diminished starting on the 3rd of a dominant chord produces a major 7th, and 2) Lydian b7 on a minor chord gives you only the sour major 3rd, no minor 3rd to resolve to. That surely is OUTSIDE!

Perhaps a better choice to get the sound you're describing on the dominant chord in a minor key would be 5th mode of harmonic minor. e.g. on an E7 in the key of Aminor: E F G# A B C D E

For the #11 sound on a minor chord, try 4th mode of harmonic minor. e.g. on Cmin7: C D Eb F# G A Bb C

Well, okay the title of this thread is "outside" scales, so I guess anything goes! ;) The reasons I wouldn't use the above suggested scales are because: 1) Half/whole diminished starting on the 3rd of a dominant chord produces a major 7th, and 2) Lydian b7 on a minor chord gives you only the sour major 3rd, no minor 3rd to resolve to. That surely is OUTSIDE!

Perhaps a better choice to get the sound you're describing on the dominant chord in a minor key would be 5th mode of harmonic minor. e.g. on an E7 in the key of Aminor: E F G# A B C D E

For the #11 sound on a minor chord, try 4th mode of harmonic minor. e.g. on Cmin7: C D Eb F# G A Bb C

Keep 'em coming everyone

James

Not really that Outside, but a nice sound is on a Maj7 chord play a Harmonic Minor scale from the 3rd of the chord. So for a CMa7 chord play an E Harmonic Minor. This basicly is a Lydian with an (enharmonic) b3 added. So you can get that kind snake charmer HarMi sound on a Ma7 chord plus the b3 Blue note. Just have to remember that b3 on a major chord needs special handling, use on a weak beat or as a passing tone.

Hey, whaddya know -- you go back a page and you find a thread tha answers your own thread!

Thanks for all the insight -- I will be practicing not only the scales but how to make musical phrases out of them.

Using penatonics: Take the most inside sounding pentatonic and a more outside, or the most outside pentatonic. So for Cm, use Cm Pent. and B Pent.

Now, make a pattern (we'll use 3 notes for the moment, but you can use as many or little as you like) in the inside one and 3 notes (this could be also any number) in the outside one. The you chose a 'shape' for each i.e.

The first shape, starting tone, the next note in the scale down, miss a note, then the next note. So
Cm=C-Bb-F
The 2nd shape, starting tone, miss a tone, the next note in the scale down, then the next note. So
Bm=B-F#-E

Note you could use any pattern of the scale, moving up or down, 1,2,3 tones at a time etc...

So using just Cm and the first shape, moving down the scale you get:
C-Bb-F Bb-G-Eb G-F-C and so on as far as the range of your instrument permits.

So using just Bm and the 2nd shape, moving down the scale you get:
B-F#-E A-E-D F#-D-B and so on.

The magic comes when you put them together:

C-Bb-F B-F#-E Bb-G-Eb A-E-D G-F-C F#-D-B

The line sounds coherant because of the use of shapes which gives the line more structure, you aren't just playing random notes. So when you do go 'outside' it sounds like you definately mean it, but also, you don't linger there too long (obviously you can if you want). This is a great way to access outside playing as it deals with tension and resolution in bite size amounts.

I'm sure you can see the amount of possibilities of different shapes, number of notes, using different pentatonics (you have a choice of 12 if you only stick to the basic minor, but you might want to try some more exotic ones) and a combination of all of them.

I personally like to practice this over a pad chord sound, but when you get it more under your fingers, you can start applying it to tunes. Take a simple pattern, ie I-VI-II-V and only play on the V using this concept. Then only play on the II. Then play both.

The past few months I have been really working at trying to play more "outside" so have quite a few more things I will put on here when I'm not so tired.

The tips above are great! :) I will definitely be trying some of those out for myself in the future.

James