Here's what might be the silliest question for a while.

We messed about with a cover last rehersal, changing it about for our own needs.

We played it in D. I found that the following notes each sounds fine when played individually, with the note, D:

D,C,G, Bflat,C,D.

Obviously D is the octave, and I guess the others form part of the key of D.

The guitarist plays all those chords whilst I hit D on the bass. They all sound fine except Bflat.

I'm not sure what's happening here.

Any wisdom, please guys?

Thanks.

John

B flat is min6 in key of D. Maybe okay as passing tone to D7. Would be at home in Locrian mode, or if, say, modulating to G minor.

Don't need theory. If sounds wrong, no play. No play.

moved to GI

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
No have theory. No hear chords. No have work. No play.

tee-hee. You crack me up Ed.

Fuqua here! Fuqua smart!

Try to learn a little more about chords John, find out how the diferent chords are built.

Also ask the guitar player what kind of chord it is, I have played with tons of guitar players who will say "D", personally I would assume D major, sometimes this is not the case.

Also learn what the different thirds sound like, if you can hear that you will have taking a big chunk out of relying on the guitar players knowledge.

The point is if you have knowledge of theory then the you would come up with those lines twice as fast. You know when you can hear what you want in your head? Well with theoretical knowledge you can realise it instantly. Plus you can work out covers a lot quicker by hearing the chord changes and relatong them to your knowledge. I believe theory and feel go hand in hand to create a musician. Everything you do can be analysed by means of theory. Its good to understand the language of music as well as speak it..

Originally posted by Jacoproud
The point is if you have knowledge of theory then the you would come up with those lines twice as fast. You know when you can hear what you want in your head? Well with theoretical knowledge you can realise it instantly. Plus you can work out covers a lot quicker by hearing the chord changes and relatong them to your knowledge. I believe theory and feel go hand in hand to create a musician. Everything you do can be analysed by means of theory. Its good to understand the language of music as well as speak it..


Thank you, WACOSHROUD, for saving me the trouble of posting what you just did. For a minute, while I was reading NEWAGEFISHERMAN's post, I thought we were gonna get into that whole "Is ThEoRy ReAlLy GoOd 4u, Or WiLl It OnLy MaKe U pLaY wItH nO fEeLiNg CuZ i NeW tHiS gUy WhO nEw ThEoRy WhO cOuLdN't RoCk Ne MoRe OnCe He LeRnT tHeOrY" discussion again, since it seems to pop up every couple of months or so. Thanks for nipping that in the bud, Bud. :)

DURRL

:D Well i try my best :D :D

Originally posted by NewWaveBasser
Do you REALLY need theory THAT MUCH??? If that's the case how come Adam Clayton of U2 has had a career??!!??!! I understand he never really went through studying but instead just picked up a bass and started doing stuff.

But let's not forget music is art and art is about feeling AND theories and teachings will NOT teach you how to FEEL. If you can't feel it in you, you are just a technically great but boring musician.

Man, there's a whole lotta 'players' that are having careers in music & MTV & all that...and they're not even in Clayton's league.
On the flip-side, there's musical 'geniuses' that were homeless(Charles Gayle), dish washers(Cecil Taylor), & insurance salesmen(Charles Ives).
Back in my 20s, I used to fret about this...no more.
I mean, c'mon...in a world's that fair, would JLo outsell William Parker?! C'mon... ;)

Secondly, IMHO, FEEL can be taught...it takes hours of listening, thinking, studying, etc. Granted, some are born with 'it', though, a schlep like me needs all the help I can get.
Anyway, studying theory & rhythm & composition, for me anyway, has only enhanced the musical quest.
Too, it saves a helluva lotta time, when discussing 'things'...

Dizzy Gillespie always said that he had to teach himself feel. He didn't have that natural blues that Bird, Lester Young and Coleman Hawkins had.

Despite this who can say that Diz had no feel? not me. He also said he learned feel through theory and technique.

Everyone has feel. Just some can access it more greatly than others.

I think of course that the last few replies are right, but there is another thing which John's case highlights. Do you want to always be relying on the guitar player for what you do?

As has been mentioned - they get stuck in ruts and will play the same few chords they know how to get their hands around. Far better to have some input into the song writing process yourself - more royalties!! Plus it will give you more interest.

I have written whole sets for rock/pop bands and it made the whole thing far more interesting and exciting to play - rather than just slavishly following the guitarist and watching what (s)he's doing - far better to lead and have him/her trying to catch up with you! ;)

U2 is also probably a case in point - Bono and the Edge obviously write all the material and most likely tell Clayton exactly what to play. Now they are good Irish boys and have remained loyal - but they could have chucked Clayton out and replaced him with 500 different bassists and nobody would have noticed the difference - except Clayton himself! :(

I saw it happen loads of times in the 80s - guitarist and singer write the songs and dump the bass player and drummer when they feel like it! How about the Smiths - hugely successful in Britain, but the bassist and drummer have had to fight long legal battles to get a penny out of this while Morrissey and Marr took everything.

Learn theory - write the best songs or chord sequences - better than the guitarist anyway - and become indispensible to the band! Otherwise - be constantly nervous that you could be "dumped" at any time - most likely when you start making money! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I think of course that the last few replies are right, but there is another thing which John's case highlights. Do you want to always be relying on the guitar player for what you do?

Learn theory - write the best songs or chord sequences - better than the guitarist anyway - and become indispensible to the band!

I agree with this, and I think it is an issue which most bass players could spend more time addressing. Harmony is one of the fundamental aspects of music...and just because you play an instrument whose role (most of the time) is to play monophonic lines doesn't mean that understanding harmony won't help you.

As bassists, our job is to play the foundation of the harmony. Wouldn't it make sense to say that it's a good idea to know what you are playing the foundation OF? I highly recommend that players of all (primarily) monophonic instruments spend some time learning some basic harmony on a polyphonic instrument such as piano or guitar (especially piano). This type of study opens many doors in bassplaying because new possibilities present themselves when you understand the totality of the harmony rather than just the bottom of it.

Originally posted by NewWaveBasser
Weird...

Do you REALLY need theory THAT MUCH??? If that's the case how come Adam Clayton of U2 has had a career??!!??!!

Don't confuse pop hero's with studied musicians. A group of people with musical instruments can get together with very little musical knowledge and sound pretty good and look really good and get promoted by the industry. And there you go, a career in music. This is a generalization and not to be interpeted as the standard, but is really pretty common. Take a some talent with very little musical knowledge and exploit it. You don't have to be studied to sound good. To grow and expand as a musician theory will help exponentially.

ED......False modulation? Is that where you might stay in the same key and just change the chord pattern?

FWIW has anyone ever read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." Part of the book is about the aesthetic experience of riding a motorcycle versus the technical experience of understanding how the thing actually works.

With my church band I have about 2 hours to learn 3 new songs every other week I have found a little theory goes a long way.

Besides don't any of the theory bashers find the nuainces of the fret board even remotely interesting. Most theory can be found as patterns on the fretboard.

New Wave, I can't believe this topic is coming up yet again. All the guys here who post in the general instruction area Jazzbo, Ed, Chris, Bruce...... have helped me out more times than I can count with theory concepts. If your nice they might even recommend a cheap book to help you get started.

Originally posted by Jacoproud
The point is if you have knowledge of theory then the you would come up with those lines twice as fast. You know when you can hear what you want in your head? Well with theoretical knowledge you can realise it instantly.

I disagree. Its not the theory that makes you able to play this but ear-training.

Plus you can work out covers a lot quicker by hearing the chord changes and relatong them to your knowledge.

Again, the level your ear is trained is at least as important as theory. A II-V progression could also be IV-V and if you don't HEAR the difference you are lost but if you hear it and don't know the theory background you are still fine.

Even though I have a solid knowledge of theory I think theory is often overrated (or overvalued?, sorry I am not a native speaker).

And to NewWaveBasser:
If you WANT to learn theory there is a ton of good books that you can get in a library or you will find lessons on the internet.

Why would you feel bad about it? I can't believe you've been here for almost a year now, and still don't know that these guys live for mutulating peoples names. To me it's innocent fun, and I wouldn't worry about it. Try to see the humour in it, instead of looking for excuses to whine.

Rockin' John? Any news yet on what exactly the value of the chords are that your guitarist friend is playing?

Is it too soon for an update?

try and hit the root notes of each chord change is a good start

Originally posted by jazzbo
Rockin' John? Any news yet on what exactly the value of the chords are that your guitarist friend is playing?

Is it too soon for an update?

If history repeats itself I think we have about 2 more pages to go.

Getting to the point sometimes that you have to PM knowledge.

Originally posted by gruffpuppy


If history repeats itself I think we have about 2 more pages to go.

Getting to the point sometimes that you have to PM knowledge.

I know what you mean SNUFF.

Originally posted by NewWaveBasser
But Ed, your comment is way out of hand... and frankly neither Chris nor you have earned my respect... yet.


dude, im not kissin anyones hind parts here, or even going off on you, but these are two men who definatly rate respect imo. Fuqwad and Durrl ;), have probably forgotten more about theory than most people here could ever hope to learn. They should be shown a bit of respect just based on the knowledge they posses.

I dont know them well at all, but I respect them because they definatly know their stuff. And since this is a bass guitar site, should'nt we show some degree of respect for those that are much wiser than ourselves?

Originally posted by NewWaveBasser
About PS3 above...

I can't believe it was THE MODERATOR (Chris) who made the "New Age Fisherman" comment.

Shame, shame, shame Chris!!! Just because you are the moderator does not give you the right to disrespect anybody.

Take a clue from cassanova, who at least closes out forums when the bashing starts...EVEN if it's Fieldy-bashing! And take a clue from the other posters here who did not have to trhash me because I was making HONEST comments!


NEWWAVEBASSER,

A bit of clarification here: when I called you NEWAGEFISHERMAN, I meant no personal disrespect...mutilating usernames on purpose is a game around here, a fact which most people understand - even if not all participate in it. An unwritten rule of the "name game" is that anyone who does not wish to have their name messed with need only say so, and no more messing will be done. So, I apologize for assuming that you wanted to be included in the game, when clearly you do not. That's cool - your name will be NEWWAVEBASSER forevermore as far as I'm concerned.

I respect each and every person on this board as a human being. However, this basic human respect extends only to the human beings in question and not to their opinions. And I'd like to make it abundantly clear that while I respect your right to hold a particular opinion, that DOESN'T mean that I have to respect or accept that particular opinion (which you clearly have a right to hold). As an example, I have ABSOLUTELY NO respect for the notion that learning more about the technical aspect of your craft can in any way HINDER you as a bassplayer or as a musician. IN MY OPINION, this idea is pure unmitigated crap, and I have every bit as much right to hold and state this opinion as you have to hold yours. And I do, when the situation presents itself. Like now.


Originally posted by NEWWAVEBASSER

Believe me, I do much more than them Hoppus and Fieldy guys...and I only picked up the bass at age 26! That's very late for a start. AND just three years ago (maybe less)... You have people with 5-10 more years of playing and they are way stuck in roots and fifhts.


It's good that you're trying to get better as a bassist - you should always do that. I haven't heard you play, so I'll take you at your word that you're doing okay. That's all good. I don't normally like to toot my own horn, but I got my first DB about 2 1/2 years ago at age 35, and while I feel like I'm doing okay, I also know that I have a lot to learn, and I try to do so whenever I find the opportunity...and I usually store and access the things I learn as theoretical knowledge. If you like, you can check out my soundclip at the bottom of this post and decide for yourself if any of the music theory that I hold so dear is doing me any good or not, or whether it prevents me from playing with feeling. If you feel that theory is hindering my playing, feel free to post your opinions on the subject while ripping me up and down. I'll respect your right to that opinion as well.

And by the way, I'm NOT the moderator of this forum...I'm one of the DB mods. And I was not disrespecting you, I was disagreeing with the content of one of your posts because I feel that posting things of that nature in a forum called General Instruction is quite counterproductive unless the opinion is debated. I teach music for a living, and IN MY EXPERIENCE, this idea that seems to be floating around in certain circles that studying theory is going to suck the feeling out of your playing and make you a LESSER player is so ridiculous as to be laughable....TO ME, it's like saying that studying anatomy will make you a LESS efficient doctor - for some reason, I find that funny. But then, I always had a slightly warped sense of humor.

One more thing which my warped sense of humor has gotten tickled by - the fact that you actually emailed a complaint to THE BIG CHEESE himself because someone called you "NEWAGE FISHERMAN"....I dunno, that may be some wicked kind of slam in Spain for some reason, but it was not intended to be disrespectful at all, it was only supposed to be weird. If I had wanted to morph the name "NEWWAVEBASSER" into something disrespectful, I like to think that I could have done better than that.


Respectfully yours,

CRUSTY FISHJAMMER






PS4 - For an example of the extremely silly and non-disrespectful nature of the NAME GAME, click the link below:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24622&perpage=20&highlight=tab&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by gruffpuppy


If history repeats itself I think we have about 2 more pages to go.

Getting to the point sometimes that you have to PM knowledge.

I disagree - I think this has been a good debate in many ways and very much related to the topic at hand.

So John is looking for an answer, but the point is that he won't really understand that answer without some knowledge of music theory.

Explaining why some notes sound "right" with others is exactly what music theory is all about.

You can blunder about for years, like somebody in the dark occasionally bumping into something that makes sense - I know, I did it for about 10 years!!

Or you can start to learn theory and it all makes sense - somebody turned the light on!

I can remember in the 1980s, playing in "New Wave" bands with other self-taught players who would say things like - "theory or lessons will stop you playing anything original or with true feeling".

The sad thing is that it took me until my middle age to realise how wrong they all were - I think that if TB does one good thing, it will be to make people realise that theory helps you not hinders you (as Chris says).

There will always be a struggle to convince people, but I think it's worth it, if just some new players "see the light"!! ;)

Originally posted by NewWaveBasser
About PS3 above...

I can't believe it was THE MODERATOR (Chris) who made the "New Age Fisherman" comment.

Shame, shame, shame Chris!!! Just because you are the moderator does not give you the right to disrespect anybody.

Take a clue from cassanova, who at least closes out forums when the bashing starts...EVEN if it's Fieldy-bashing! And take a clue from the other posters here who did not have to trhash me because I was making HONEST comments!

Chris Fitz is A moderator, not THE moderator, and He's relatively harmless, so I let him have his fun in my forum, he's given more advice than he's bashed, anyway...........

Chris A.:rolleyes:tabevil
the lurking moderator........

Well, I still see this epithet as "harmless" anyway! I just don't see how "New Age Fisherman" is an insult?

There have been some really cutting ones in the past, but most of us see it as a real honour to have our names morphed by people like Chris F or Ed Fuqua.

I really loved "BLUES MINEFIELD" and feel quite attached to it as a pseudonym!

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield

You can blunder about for years, like somebody in the dark occasionally bumping into something that makes sense - I know, I did it for about 10 years!!

I had the same thing with ear training. Never really cared for it until I realized how hard it was for me to transcribe some songs. Like I said I have a solid knowledge of theory (and some good books to look things up when i don't know the answer) but it just didn't help much. Maybe that's the reason for me pointing that out so much.:rolleyes:

I can remember in the 1980s, playing in "New Wave" bands with other self-taught players who would say things like - "theory or lessons will stop you playing anything original or with true feeling".

This is nonsens. It's like if you study Shakespear Joe Average won't understand you anymore. But I am 100% self-taught (except some basic things I learned in school), have good technique, know my theory and I am proud of that. I don't think that you always need a teacher. GOOD teachers are hard to find and no teacher may be better then a bad teacher. But how is that saying? Different strokes for different folks.;)

Originally posted by Minimalist
Like I said I have a solid knowledge of theory (and some good books to look things up when i don't know the answer) but it just didn't help much.

Help you with what - is the question? I believe that the question John actually asked at the start of this post would easily be answered by knowledge of theory. OK there's no substitute for a good ear, but that wasn't what we were talking about!

OK - so you hear some guitar chords with a view to writing a bassline and you might find a few notes that sound good with that. But if I have a knowledge of all the possible scales that could fit with the chord being played and understand its function in the harmony, there is so much more open to me!

As an example, in 10 years of playing I never found a diminished scale by trial an error. A few lessons with a Jazz pro and I can see this fitting into loads of situations I never even dreamed of before.

The alternative to me is ...oh well, back to root five and the odd "out " sounding note! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield

Help you with what - is the question?

With my transcriptions.

I believe that the question John actually asked at the start of this post would easily be answered by knowledge of theory. OK there's no substitute for a good ear, but that wasn't what we were talking about!

Yeah, you are right. I got a little bit off the topic.:rolleyes: It won't happen again.:rolleyes: I promise (not really:D ).

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24622&perpage=20&highlight=tab&pagenumber=1

That was a fun thread. Thanks for bringing it back up FSCOTTBAKULA. I remember the good old days when you could say something without getting bashed. I'm with Ed on this one.

It just goes to show you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Newwavebasser, usually if you have a problem with a person you should email them first, then bother Paul only if you are not able to work things out first. I had the same problem as you once. I thought someone was getting on my case. I sent them a PM and surely enough it was just a misunderstanding. Also I have received PMs and emails from people that didn't like things that I said. (I even had some peoples hitting on me when I used my wifey's pic as an avatar!) So in all of these cases, I worked it out with them privately.

We are adults here. It's not that hard to talk things out when need be.

Originally posted by Gabu
(I even had some peoples hitting on me when I used my wifey's pic as an avatar!)

Bet you don't have that problem with the new avatar. :D

Originally posted by jazzbo


Bet you don't have that problem with the new avatar. :D

Nope, you are the only one left! :p

GOD ALMIGHTY!

...I hurt my side on that one!
:D

Originally posted by Gabu
Nope, you are the only one left! :p

Oops, did I PM you again? I meant that to go to JELLYBEANCHIC.




Okay, that was wrong.

Originally posted by jazzbo


Oops, did I PM you again? I meant that to go to JELLYBEANCHIC.




Okay, that was wrong.

Come on now! Don't be shy! ;)

Im really beginning to wonder about you two ;)

Originally posted by Christopher
B flat is min6 in key of D. Maybe okay as passing tone to D7. Would be at home in Locrian mode, or if, say, modulating to G minor.

Don't need theory. If sounds wrong, no play. No play.

I believe the min6 of D is B nat. B flat is the sharp 5 and a great mod to the 4 chord. A better passing note to D7 would be B unless you're talking natural minor.

Sorry, I meant B flat is a good passing tone to a 4 minor and a good set-up to D7 is of coarse C.

Originally posted by T Jay


I believe the min6 of D is B nat. B flat is the sharp 5 and a great mod to the 4 chord.

The minor 6th and augmented 5th are the same interval. Bb is the minor 6th, B natural the 6th.

Thanks Pac,

You said it better than I did. I was referring to the 6th degree which I usually think of as a minor chord.

Obviously a minor 6th is the same as a raised 5th in terms of scale relationship.