Recently I recieved my subscribed issue of Bass Player and was very surprised to see former Chicago bassist Peter Cetera on the cover. Now I'm not starting this thread to bash Cetera or his music as I find that Chicago was a very good band. I'm just saying that putting Cetera on Bass Player's cover and him being the main focus of that issue to be really improper. I mean, so many other bassists that have done more and have played better and they deserve to be there much more than Cetera, who appearntly gave up on playing bass when he heard his producer playing a moog bass line on his keyboard and just deciding to use sessionists like Glorious Pastorious. Same thing with Pete Wentz being on the cover a couple months back, it's not really right to give it to Wentz (I'm not here to rip on him or his band) when there's so much more talent out there. Anyway just putting my opinion out there I could be wrong. I enjoy Chicago's music and I'm not saying Cetera isn't a really good bass player.

Did not realize there was already a Cetera thread. Probably should get rid of this.

I know you said you're not ripping on Peter Cetera..... but how you mention Peter Cetera in the same sentence as Pete Wentz (?!?!?!) is beyond me. :eek::eyebrow::confused::confused::rollno:

Wentz isn't in the same league, can barely play and acknowledges the fact. He just got lucky....:rolleyes:
Cetera took the melodic and rhythmic styles of McCartney & Jamerson & made them his own in a jazz rock combo & all while singing beautifully....

That's like comparing Paul McCartney to Sid Vicious...

The only similarity I can think of between Wentz & Cetera is they have both encouraged young people to pick up the instrument. For different reasons though. Cetera was a 'musical influence' to people. Wentz just appears to be a 'cool' influence....

Peter Cetera FULLY deserves to be on the cover of Bass Player.... indeed it is well overdue! :cool:

Clearly, you've not listened to Chicago's music from 1968 to 1977. Had you, you would have a more educated view on his musicianship -- even if you didn't care for the style of music.

Peter Cetera FULLY deserves to be on the cover of Bass Player.... indeed it is well overdue! :cool:

For sure... they can only put Geddy, Flea and Jaco on so many times. I think this issue was a breath of fresh air.

Bass Player is in the business of selling magazines. Make no mistake, it is not in the business of appealing to a very narrow class of bass player who only likes prodigies and virtuosos. It is in the business of selling magazines so advertisers will pay more money for ads.

Besides, Pete Cetera is a fabulous bassist who has done many impressive things, not the least of which is singing amazingly well while playing bass amazingly well. He may have an inferiority complex about his playing, but that doesn't negate the many contributions he's made.

Pete Wentz...eh, he sells magazines to the kids, and then the kids read about others who are much better, and hopefully they come away with something more than knowing how to look pretty on camera. Don't get me wrong...looking pretty on camera is very important for a rock star. But it's a marketing thing. I'd bet that was one of the higher selling issues, so having him on the cover worked.

Putting out information and educating their readers is secondary to magazine publishers. Making money is always job one, at least for the smart ones.

I've got over 10 years of BP issues stashed around here. That's 120 issues plus. So you think Cetera isn't one of the 120 most influential bassists, in terms of the music they made? Cetera wrote a whole slew of hit songs, too. I think it was a very interesting interview of a player from one of the leading bands in the '70s.

My only beef with this issue is I was under the impression the Stew McKinsey interview would be in there.

I've got over 10 years of BP issues stashed around here. That's 120 issues plus. So you think Cetera isn't one of the 120 most influential bassists, in terms of the music they made? Cetera wrote a whole slew of hit songs, too. I think it was a very interesting interview of a player from one of the leading bands in the '70s.

I'll go even further...I have every issue, in order, stashed here. I've been waiting a long time for a Cetera feature. Tiran Porter was another they finally got around to...Jim Fielder would be another.
Hell, I'll be happy if BP did a Dennis Dunaway article...I would have to ask: How could a band sound pretty together on record & totally garage-band like in concert. ;)

I posted a Down Beat Readers' Poll in the other Cetera thread...in '73, enough people thought enough of Cetera that he placed in the "Best Bass" category...not bad for an EB in a JAZZ magazine.

Defensive of Cetera, I see. I'm only stating that I thought he wasn't talented enough to be on the cover, I think he is a very good bass player as I stated before but he basically abondoned the instrument in his solo career. Now, c'mon, even when Roger Waters started his solo career he kept playing bass and he could of used synth bass lines like Cetera or session musicians but he didn't. Now mentioning Wentz and Cetera in the same paragraph is wrong and I do apologize but there has to be some bassists out there who deserve to be interviewed more than Cetera. By the way, I do listen to Chicago and Saturday in the Park is one of my favorite songs.

Defensive of Cetera, I see. I'm only stating that I thought he wasn't talented enough to be on the cover, I think he is a very good bass player as I stated before but he basically abondoned the instrument in his solo career. Now, c'mon, even when Roger Waters started his solo career he kept playing bass and he could of used synth bass lines like Cetera or session musicians but he didn't.

I don't know if Roger Waters would be the best guy to put up there to defend your position on Cetera, Roger didn't even play on a lot of the Pink Floyd material.:hiding:

i bet the Pete Wentz issue had something like this in the article...


"figure A displays the masterful, well crafted and paced 8th note groove that really supports the band and drives the song. Pete says: "if you strum right up near the 12th fret it can look really cool"

E-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
A-----------------------------------------------------
D-----------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------------------------------

i bet the Pete Wentz issue had something like this in the article...


"figure A displays the masterful, well crafted and paced 8th note groove that really supports the band and drives the song. Pete says: "if you strum right up near the 12th fret it can look really cool"

E-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
A-----------------------------------------------------
D-----------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------------------------------

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

As a point of fact, Pete Wentz was not on the cover of Bass Player, but Guitar World's Bass Guitar which folded after it's August 2007 issue and in general placed far more "Here today, gone later today" and pop/rock bassists on their covers than BP does.

Just a clarification. I too was a bit surprised at the Cetera cover considering his lack of recent bass output, but upon reading it give the article two double-thumps up as both a historical lesson in finding lines in a complex, multi-player band as well as his recent movement "back into the fold" as a bassist, playing on his most recent solo album.

Did you really write "I'm only stating that I thought he wasn't talented enough to be on the cover."

Is it talent that get's you on the cover of Bass Player, who gets to be the judge? If it's pure talent, then Jaco and Mr. Jamerson should each get at least 5 covers each every year. Put the Ox on a few times, and I'd keep my subscription going.

Peter Cetera is a well deserving cover story

g

I don't know if Roger Waters would be the best guy to put up there to defend your position on Cetera, Roger didn't even play on a lot of the Pink Floyd material.:hiding:
But you see that's why I used Waters as an example. He isn't as good as Cetera but he kept playing bass. He didn't stop just to focus on his singing (and yes I realize Waters also isn't as good a singer as Cetera) but to me, that means alot to keep playing despite easy substitutes.:bassist:

Did you really write "I'm only stating that I thought he wasn't talented enough to be on the cover."

Is it talent that get's you on the cover of Bass Player, who gets to be the judge? If it's pure talent, then Jaco and Mr. Jamerson should each get at least 5 covers each every year. Put the Ox on a few times, and I'd keep my subscription going.

Peter Cetera is a well deserving cover story

g

Perhaps.

Talent. Well, there is no debate to be had regarding Mr. Cetera's talents. Don't just listen to Saturday in the Park listen to the entire Chicago V album it comes from. Listen to how key his bass work is on every song. Then tell me he wasn't talented or influential. Chicago got away with alot of stuff on their albums - that even today people's narrow tastes and record companies won't let them get away with.

Defensive of Cetera, I see. I'm only stating that I thought he wasn't talented enough to be on the cover, I think he is a very good bass player as I stated before but he basically abondoned the instrument in his solo career. Now, c'mon, even when Roger Waters started his solo career he kept playing bass and he could of used synth bass lines like Cetera or session musicians but he didn't. Now mentioning Wentz and Cetera in the same paragraph is wrong and I do apologize but there has to be some bassists out there who deserve to be interviewed more than Cetera. By the way, I do listen to Chicago and Saturday in the Park is one of my favorite songs.

I honestly think that after looking at your profile, you need to take the time to educate about Cetera and his playing. You also need to get a little more life experience before you come down on Cetera for putting down the bass and concentrating on vocals.

Cetera was a pop bassist/vocalist during a time when pop was dominated by keyboard bass. Given his great ability as a singer, and the fact that formula that Chicago developed with David Foster was giving them huge hits, I can understand why he layed off the bass. Remember, Cetera was not playing Prog or Metal, he was a pop musician. Comapring him to someone like Geddy or Roger Waters is really unfair given their different genres. Many great bassists laid low during that period because electric bass simply was not the dominant sound, much like acoustic bassists took a huge hit in the 1960's when bass guitar became dominant.

As for saying the man is not talented enough to be on the cover of Bass Player, I simply do not agree. If Cetera is not talented enough for a cover, no one is. As a person who lived through that period, but did not follow Chicago, I knew he was good, but I had no idea he was that good, until I bought Chicago Transit Authority last Wednesday, and Chicago V on Friday. The man is a masterful bassist who literally combines Jamerson and MacCartney. He used the upper register to play bass as effectively as any bassist I have ever heard. In terms of real world (non-solo or lead) bassplaying, Cetera is way more effective than most bassists I have heard, virtuosos included.

The good Doctor did some homework! Nice.

I plan on picking up some Chicago here soon as well. I listened to it a lot as a kid... 'cause my parents loved them and the Eagles... but I was to young to appreciate it.

I honestly think that after looking at your profile, you need to take the time to educate about Cetera and his playing. You also need to get a little more life experience before you come down on Cetera for putting down the bass and concentrating on vocals.

Cetera was a pop bassist/vocalist during a time when pop was dominated by keyboard bass. Given his great ability as a singer, and the fact that formula that Chicago developed with David Foster was giving them huge hits, I can understand why he layed off the bass. Remember, Cetera was not playing Prog or Metal, he was a pop musician. Comapring him to someone like Geddy or Roger Waters is really unfair given their different genres. Many great bassist laid low during that period because electric bass simply was not the dominant sound, much like acoustic bassists took a huge hit in the 1960's when bass guitar became dominant.

As for saying the man is not talented enough to be on the cover of Bass Player, I simply do not agree. If Cetera is not talented enough for a cover, no one is. As a person who lived through that period, but did not follow Chicago, I knew he was good, but I had no idea he was that good, until I bought Chicago Transit Authority last Wednesday, and Chicago V on Friday. The man is a masterful bassist who literally combines Jamerson and MacCartney. He used the upper register to play bass as effectively as any bassist I have ever heard. In terms of real world (non-solo or lead) bassplaying, Cetera is way more effective than most bassists I have heard, virtuosos included.

And I don't disagree with you, I'm coming at this discussion as a bass player who's very controlling about the bass. I don't let anyone else play the bass in the band or criticize my playing based on my age but I also understand that Cetera came from a different time and place. It's just wierd to me that you'd put down something that's deeply rooted in your heart no matter how bad your bass playing got (which was a reason Cetera listed for quitting bass) but I guess I understand given his circumstances.
Now as for me stating that I thought Cetera wasn't talented enough to be on the cover, well I retract that though I still feel that putting down the instrument is a default, I'll open my eyes to Cetera more than judging him just on his solo career.

As a point of fact, Pete Wentz was not on the cover of Bass Player, but Guitar World's Bass Guitar which folded after it's August 2007 issue and in general placed far more "Here today, gone later today" and pop/rock bassists on their covers than BP does.

Just a clarification. I too was a bit surprised at the Cetera cover considering his lack of recent bass output, but upon reading it give the article two double-thumps up as both a historical lesson in finding lines in a complex, multi-player band as well as his recent movement "back into the fold" as a bassist, playing on his most recent solo album.
You are right about GW's Bass Guitar, but on the other hand, that may or may not have had anything to do with why it folded.

And I don't disagree with you, I'm coming at this discussion as a bass player who's very controlling about the bass. I don't let anyone else play the bass in the band or criticize my playing based on my age but I also understand that Cetera came from a different time and place. It's just wierd to me that you'd put down something that's deeply rooted in your heart no matter how bad your bass playing got (which was a reason Cetera listed for quitting bass) but I guess I understand given his circumstances.
Now as for me stating that I thought Cetera wasn't talented enough to be on the cover, well I retract that though I still feel that putting down the instrument is a default, I'll open my eyes to Cetera more than judging him just on his solo career.


You are putting the value bass above, that of singing and, making an asumption that people can an should be able to do Both without compromise based on the fact that a few extraordinary musicians do.

Peter Cetera has a unique vocal style and must have made a decision for the good of the band to concentrate on that, don't judge the man for that, Chicago was widely acclaimed and immensly popular with him behind the mike.

Besides as previous posters have said, he was a bloody good bassist.:bassist:

And I don't disagree with you, I'm coming at this discussion as a bass player who's very controlling about the bass. I don't let anyone else play the bass in the band or criticize my playing based on my age but I also understand that Cetera came from a different time and place. It's just wierd to me that you'd put down something that's deeply rooted in your heart no matter how bad your bass playing got (which was a reason Cetera listed for quitting bass) but I guess I understand given his circumstances.
Now as for me stating that I thought Cetera wasn't talented enough to be on the cover, well I retract that though I still feel that putting down the instrument is a default, I'll open my eyes to Cetera more than judging him just on his solo career.
Dude, no offense, but you wouldn't last 10 minutes in most professional circles with that attitude. If you can't take constructive criticism, being in a band is not for you. Whether I'm a bandleader or a sideman, I have to take constructive criticism all the time in every single musical situation I'm in and I have all my career. It's part and parcel of the game.

Also, while I love playing bass, let's not get all starry-eyed about it. It may be a hugely noble pursuit to you, but to others, you're just one of a few people in a band. And not every bassist feels the way about it that you do. For example, I'm at a stage where I'd like to get back into playing guitar and singing more than playing bass. But bass is what I do best and it's what puts food on my table, so I still do it. So I would suggest that if you want to pursue a career in music that you develop a little tolerance for others who may not feel the same way as you do, and get a little thicker skin.

CTA thru Chicago V. Don't waste your time and money on anything past those. While you're at it, get some BS&T as well. The two bands were contemporaries and J.T Felder(sp?) did some tasty work as well.

You'd be remiss to leave out Chicago Live in Japan and Chicago VII -- the entire first side of album 1 is instrumental.

Also in terms of contempoary Chicago's Jason Scheff - Chicao 26 ( live ) is excellent and so is Night and Day ( Chicago's big band album ). And if you want to see Jason smoke Verdine White ( yeah I said it ) check out Chicago and Earth Wind and Fire on DVD.

...And if you want to see Jason smoke Verdine White ( yeah I said it ) check out Chicago and Earth Wind and Fire on DVD.

That's kind of like saying Victor Wooten can outslap Larry Graham. The young guy may have more chops, but he benefitted from the grooves the older player laid down, and he learned from. :smug:

For sure... they can only put Geddy, Flea and Jaco on so many times. I think this issue was a breath of fresh air.

+1....I really enjoyed the interview, he seemed really down to earth about his career and his playing. It really was a "breath of fresh air". Hopefully, Bass Player will give us some more diversification in the future with regard to who is interviewed and featured on the cover.

George

And if you want to see Jason smoke Verdine White ( yeah I said it ) check out Chicago and Earth Wind and Fire on DVD.

Love JS's playing, but smoke Vedine? Not by a long shot in my opinion. Verdine's playing is funky, tasty, melodic, and watching him lay down those grooves, looks effortless on his part.

Dang, now I really want to go out and get my Chicago and Blood, Sweat, and Tears vinyl on CD. Peter and JT were two of my favorites back then.

And Lincoln, that first LP of Chicago VII was just awesome. Thanks for the reminder.

I never really gave much thought to Cetera until I had to learn "Does Anyone Really Know What Time It Is?" for an audition I did a few years back. I had to learn 4 or 5 songs for that audition and his bass lines were by far the most involved. He definitely deserves to be on the cover of BP.

I honestly think that after looking at your profile, you need to take the time to educate about Cetera and his playing. You also need to get a little more life experience before you come down on Cetera for putting down the bass and concentrating on vocals.

Cetera was a pop bassist/vocalist during a time when pop was dominated by keyboard bass. Given his great ability as a singer, and the fact that formula that Chicago developed with David Foster was giving them huge hits, I can understand why he layed off the bass. Remember, Cetera was not playing Prog or Metal, he was a pop musician. Comapring him to someone like Geddy or Roger Waters is really unfair given their different genres. Many great bassists laid low during that period because electric bass simply was not the dominant sound, much like acoustic bassists took a huge hit in the 1960's when bass guitar became dominant.

As for saying the man is not talented enough to be on the cover of Bass Player, I simply do not agree. If Cetera is not talented enough for a cover, no one is. As a person who lived through that period, but did not follow Chicago, I knew he was good, but I had no idea he was that good, until I bought Chicago Transit Authority last Wednesday, and Chicago V on Friday. The man is a masterful bassist who literally combines Jamerson and MacCartney. He used the upper register to play bass as effectively as any bassist I have ever heard. In terms of real world (non-solo or lead) bassplaying, Cetera is way more effective than most bassists I have heard, virtuosos included.

Thank you Dr Cheese for saying it so much more eloquently than I could..... :cool:

Glad to see Peter Cetera getting some of the love he deserves from most posters in this thread .... his playing on the earlier Chicago albums remains masterful today, and at the time he was a true innovator. As someone mentioned earlier, both Cetera and McCartney introduced the concept of creative, melodic bass lines to the rock world when very few others were doing it.

Consider how creative many of his lines are, and then add consistently superior vocals on top of that ..... most of us have a hard time playing and chewing gum simultaneously ;)

Nice BP article, well deserved recognition ...... :cool:

Dude, no offense, but you wouldn't last 10 minutes in most professional circles with that attitude. If you can't take constructive criticism, being in a band is not for you. Whether I'm a bandleader or a sideman, I have to take constructive criticism all the time in every single musical situation I'm in and I have all my career. It's part and parcel of the game.

Also, while I love playing bass, let's not get all starry-eyed about it. It may be a hugely noble pursuit to you, but to others, you're just one of a few people in a band. And not every bassist feels the way about it that you do. For example, I'm at a stage where I'd like to get back into playing guitar and singing more than playing bass. But bass is what I do best and it's what puts food on my table, so I still do it. So I would suggest that if you want to pursue a career in music that you develop a little tolerance for others who may not feel the same way as you do, and get a little thicker skin.

True but I'm also the songwriter of the band and almost all the material the band plays is mine. Now criticism is fine and I think you misunderstood me when I wrote that, criticism on playing bass is one thing to be recieved and thought about but criticism about my age in playing is completely different. Just because I'm young doesn't necessarily mean I can't effectively lead my band. Now I don't mind taking my guitarists' criticism but I don't like it when he tries to play the bass line on his guitar, especially if it's the song I wrote and the chords I used for the song. As a bassist I feel that eveytime I get on stage I have to out do myself from the previous time we played. Bass is everything to me because it defines me.

Defensive of Cetera, I see. I'm only stating that I thought he wasn't talented enough to be on the cover, I think he is a very good bass player as I stated before but he basically abondoned the instrument in his solo career. Now, c'mon, even when Roger Waters started his solo career he kept playing bass and he could of used synth bass lines like Cetera or session musicians but he didn't. Now mentioning Wentz and Cetera in the same paragraph is wrong and I do apologize but there has to be some bassists out there who deserve to be interviewed more than Cetera. By the way, I do listen to Chicago and Saturday in the Park is one of my favorite songs.

I think you pretty-much nailed it. If Saturday In The Park is your favorite Chicago song (coming from a musician's scope), you have not listened to much of their stuff. I would bet that you think Chicago is "Hard Habit To Break", "You're The Inspiration", etc. No offense, but this may be where your age may be a bit of a problem. Chicago kicked MAJOR ass in their early days, and Cetera was a huge factor. In addition, they had )IMO) the greatest rock guitarist that ever lived.

I have been reading BP since their 1st issue in 1989 and am sick of looking at Marcus Miller, Flea and Vic Wooten. As great as they are in musical gymnastics, I think the "cool factor" has run its course. Songs are the real cool. Overplaying is overrated!

Dr. Cheese is spot on. Listen to the whole album Saturday In The Park is from. Chicago V is a classic. In fact, I would recommend you get Chicago Transit Authority (I) through Chicago VII. I think your will be amazed and will then realize what all the "defenses" of Cetera are all about.

Here is my "must listen to" list (Just get Carnegie Hall, V, VI & VII - you'll be all set):

Song/Album

Introduction: CTA (1969)/Live At Carnegie Hall (1971)
Questions 67 & 68: CTA (1969)/Live At Carnegie Hall (1971)
Ballet For A Girl In Buchannon: Chicago II (1970)/Live At Carnegie Hall (1971)
Movin In: Chicago II (1970)
25 or 6 to 4: Chicago II (1970)/Live At Carnegie Hall (1971)
In The Country: Chicago II (1970)/Live At Carnegie Hall (1971)
Fancy Colours: Chicago II (1970)/Live At Carnegie Hall (1971)
Mother: Chicago III (1971)/Live At Carnegie Hall (1971)
Lowdown: Chicago III (1971)/Live At Carnegie Hall (1971)
Sing A Mean Tune Kid: Chicago III (1971)/Live At Carnegie Hall (1971)
A Hit By Varese: Chicago V (1972)/Live In Japan (1972)
State Of The Union: Chicago V (1972)/Live In Japan (1972)
Dialogue (Pts. 1 @ 2): Chicago V (1972)/Live In Japan (1972)
Now That You're Gone: Chicago V (1972)
While The City Sleeps: Chicago V (1972)
Goodbye: Chicago V (1972)
All Is Well: Chicago V (1972)
Just You 'N' Me: Chicago VI (1973)
Darlin' Dear: Chicago VI (1973)
Jenny: Chicago VI (1973)
What's This World Coming To?: Chicago VI (1973)
Feelin' Stronger Every Day: Chicago VI (1973)
Aire - Devil's Sweet: Chicago VII (1974)
Italian From New York - Hanky Panky - Life Saver: Chicago VII (1974)
Happy Man: Chicago VII (1974)
(I've Been) Searchin' So Long: Chicago VII (1974)
Call On Me: Chicago VII (1974)
Brand New Love Affair - Pt I & II: Chicago VIII (1974)
Never Been In Love Before: Chicago VIII (1974)
Long Time No See: Chicago VIII (1974)
Old Days: Chicago VIII (1974)


P.S. No offense intended. :-)

True but I'm also the songwriter of the band and almost all the material the band plays is mine. Now criticism is fine and I think you misunderstood me when I wrote that, criticism on playing bass is one thing to be recieved and thought about but criticism about my age in playing is completely different. Just because I'm young doesn't necessarily mean I can't effectively lead my band. Now I don't mind taking my guitarists' criticism but I don't like it when he tries to play the bass line on his guitar, especially if it's the song I wrote and the chords I used for the song. As a bassist I feel that eveytime I get on stage I have to out do myself from the previous time we played. Bass is everything to me because it defines me.
Fair enough, sir. If you write the songs, that's a different story.

Absolutely no offense taken. :crying: j/k
Ever since I was a child I've listened to 70s bands like Queen, Pink Floyd and Chicago but if I haven't listened to enough of Chicago and since it seems in most people's oponion that Cetera's one of the greatest bassists of all time, then I guess I should listen to more. But thanks for the advice on Chicago.

Fair enough, sir. If you write the songs, that's a different story.

Thanks for understanding.

Absolutely no offense taken. :crying: j/k
Ever since I was a child I've listened to 70s bands like Queen, Pink Floyd and Chicago but if I haven't listened to enough of Chicago and since it seems in most people's oponion that Cetera's one of the greatest bassists of all time, then I guess I should listen to more. But thanks for the advice on Chicago.

I don't know if he would be considered "one of the greatest bassists of all time", but he is certainly worth listening to. Chicago, in their day was one of the greatest bands of all time (IMO).

I really think that an investment in the Carnegie Hall set and Chicago V would serve you well. In any event, take care!

Thanks you too.

You know, I don't mean to bump the thread needlessly. But, in the last band I was in before I banished myself to the woodshed, I got to sing and play Saturday in the Park, and I can vouch for his playing just from that. It took me quite a while to get that line to where it was natural and I wasn't messing up either the singing or the playing.

So, yeah, I have to say that it is possible to develop a respect for Cetera as a player just from being familiar with the one song.

Just a technicality, mind you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX4at2CNRi4

More cowbell!
http://seoblog.intrapromote.com/more_cowbell.jpg