HI guys,

i may have a new style of neck reinforcement. it will make the neck totally straight, it will also stop neck from warping or moving from weather variation. Stifness is calculated to still let the neck vibrate but control the instability of wood.
No truss rod!!!
It's half the weight of a truss rod too!!!

All you need is routing a chanel and glue the new system...

Probably epoxy will be suggested....

the only downside: i think is the only way to adjust the action is to work on string height at the bridge and nut.....

I played a no relief, straight neck to days ago and i like it but what do you luthier think about this idea?

thanks

Francois

What exactly are you talking about here? Just replacing the truss rod w/ a hollow CF rod maybe?

I think most people would want to maintain the ability to adjust the relief.
Stifness is calculated to still let the neck vibrate but control the instability of wood.Since a neck will always vibrate, no matter how stiff, what exactly have you calculated here?

Don't confuse stiffness with stability....one of the major reasons you need an adjustable truss rod is because the neck can move over time. It can be stiff as heck but still move over time. Unless you're going all CF like a Moses neck, or unless you want to get into the habit of re-levelling your frets, I doubt you can overcome this.

I don't see how it's any easier than a normal neck with a trussrod. Necks aren't that hard to begin with and dropping a trussrod in the slot never seems like one of the harder steps ;)

even the "company" that makes carbon bolt-on necks learned that users require a trussrod to adjust the neck relief to their specific taste

all the best,

R

I do not agree with you on that Rodent, because a guy from Modulus says that they where kind of forced to put truss rod cause people thinks it's no good because there was no truss rod....

Some says that it's easy to install a truss rod and it's true for someone who has experience. My system will work for a newbie...

All i can say is that my system is made of carbon fiber. A friend of mine, which is an engineer is actually calculating the strenght needed to keep the neck from curving under string tension. I really don't want to overbuild my carbon part.

Soem says that the carbon fiber tone comes from it's stiffness that'sw why i want my system just to conter act weather changes and string tension....

As soon as i will get this under patent i will show picture of the prototype and drawings....

Francois

I do not agree with you on that Rodent, because a guy from Modulus says that they where kind of forced to put truss rod cause people thinks it's no good because there was no truss rod....

Some says that it's easy to install a truss rod and it's true for someone who has experience. My system will work for a newbie...

All i can say is that my system is made of carbon fiber. A friend of mine, which is an engineer is actually calculating the strenght needed to keep the neck from curving under string tension. I really don't want to overbuild my carbon part.

Soem says that the carbon fiber tone comes from it's stiffness that'sw why i want my system just to conter act weather changes and string tension....

As soon as i will get this under patent i will show picture of the prototype and drawings....

Francois

would one be limited to string gauge/mfg in order to keep the same degree of relief or flatness in the neck with a system such as this?

also, if the carbon fiber is designed to statically balance the forces from string tension, how does it balance the additional forces acting on the neck when the wood of the neck and/or fingerboard gains or loses moisture due to variations in environmental humidity?

thanks for any clarification, as your idea interests me

edit: for clarity, i suppose i'm just asking if and to what degree the rod is 'overbuilt'...but therein may lie the secret

I do not agree with you on that Rodent, because a guy from Modulus says that they where kind of forced to put truss rod cause people thinks it's no good because there was no truss rod....

Some says that it's easy to install a truss rod and it's true for someone who has experience. My system will work for a newbie...

All i can say is that my system is made of carbon fiber. A friend of mine, which is an engineer is actually calculating the strenght needed to keep the neck from curving under string tension. I really don't want to overbuild my carbon part.

Soem says that the carbon fiber tone comes from it's stiffness that'sw why i want my system just to conter act weather changes and string tension....

As soon as i will get this under patent i will show picture of the prototype and drawings....

Francois

Sounds interesting.

However, I sold my Modulus M 92-5 (thanks TomB) because I couldn't adjust the relief on the neck. The only way I'd ever consider buying another Modulus is if it had a trussrod.

That said, I still like the principle of your idea.




dcr

I do not agree with you on that Rodent, because a guy from Modulus says that they where kind of forced to put truss rod cause people thinks it's no good because there was no truss rod....

Francois - this is exactly what I was referring to ... users (customers) required the addition of a trussrod

all the best,

R

That's why prototype exists....

We are trying to determine how much more stifness we need to add to the system to counteract wood movement....

The problem is how much overbuilt it needs to be???

i will have 2 new prototypes build. 1 with stronger carbon fiber and one with extra layer + stiffer carbon fiber and compare.

I bought some warwick adjust-o-nut to help adjust the string height..... a little big for my taste but working great....

Francois

i tought that it would be nice to have a neck that you never need to adjust....

I understand your point Rodent but i'm a little stubborn, LOL

i'm gonna play with the prototype for a while and see....

thank you all guys your comments are really appreciated....

If you still have other comments, go ahead....

Francois

Francois - it's important to remember that no matter how structurally sound a product might be, if your potential customers have significantly strong opinion on a product it needs to be given consideration no matter what the prototype proves to be feasible

in the case of Modulus, they proved beyond any sliver of a doubt that an all composite neck didn't structurally require a trussrod - but their customers told them otherwise with their $$$

while it's great to establish a new concept in the market, you also need to consider that you're working double duty in also working to establish yourself as a new bass builder on the scene. putting all your stuff into a controversial idea that customers continue to say they 'require' in a product can lead to disaster even if the idea proves to be sound from an engineering standpoint. I'd highly recommend doing some market research in the Basses forum and see if the bass community is ready for a neck that is not relief adjustable (i.e. no trussrod) .... you might be surprised by what those who would be your potential customers have to say

do continue to work on your new concept and prove it out ... but also work to establish yourself with a solid product that is not steeped in controversy

just my 2 Indian Rupees

all the best,

R

Good point Rodent, asking the people on the market is exactly what i'm doing here.... I haven't won this round, LMAO!!!

I'll continue my work and see where it goes....

thank you very much for your comments

Francois

One thing about that system that I'm thinking of is that you have addressed the string tension, but not effects of humidity. Down here in South Texas, it sometimes gets so humid that the locals have started growing gills to breathe! ;) So if the wood is taking up moisture, it will naturally want to curve one way or another. I find myself doing seasonal adjustments on both my basses and my guitarists' guit-fiddles. Your method is basically counteracting a known, nearly constant variable. What is doesn't take into account, that I can see, is the rather unknown variable of the wood's thirst. Just something I was wanting to throw out there for you. It's a good idea, but it may be a regional market you are calculating for.

Some says that it's easy to install a truss rod and it's true for someone who has experience. My system will work for a newbie...

and in what way exactly would installing a cf rod be any easier than a truss rod? unless youre building an entire neck out of cf... I understand you dont want to say too much, if its something you believe could work out. (I aint saying too much about a onboard tube preamp, yes, onboard) No offense, but I can count many tasks in bass building that are harder to do than installing a truss rod. Fretting, dressing, crowning, side dots, nut, pickup building,winding and inlay if any, all seem more difficult to do than a simple rout down the middle of a neck blank.

good replies guys,

it is not a simple Carbon fiber rod, it is a more complexe system that will be glued. this system will prevent sting tension movement but also twisting and warping movement from weather changes. Here in montreal, it can but 32 celsius in the summer to -22 in the winter plus a lot of humidity....

What i'm looking for it a system in which i can cnc machine your back neck contour + install the carbon fiber device + radius and slot your fingerboard, all you need is to glue it and a press to install the frets.

I wanna build a bass or guitar neck for dummies system....

For a luthier installing a truss rod is nothing but not for a newbie... What if your truss rod snap or if you strip the threads or the adjusting nut. This system can't break, there's no part in movement, it doesn't rust.....

what if you buy your neck blnak and the system is already install, the only thing you have to do is shaping the neck and glueing the FB?

Francois

in my experience and optinion ... shaping the neck and gluing a fretboard so it is properly located and without a visible glue line is significantly more difficult than routing for and installing a dual action trussrod.

more important than the mechanics of building the neck - since your end customers will not be other bass builders, but instead bass players right? - is to know if there is a large enough segment of the bass playing public that will accept a neck built without a trussrod (and therefore without a way to adjust releif to a player's personal preferences) so that you can have your prototype proven out by real world players who beat on it five or more nights each week for weeks on end. if you can get it approved as significantly better with real players then you have the chance of turning this into something that rocks the industry instead of it being the Edsel or Delorean of bass models

outside of this being a complete carbon fiber neck, the only other way I can see assuring that a neck won't twist is to follow something along the lines of that utilized in a Modulus Genesis neck ... and that is definitely no simple "route a slot and epoxy in some carbon" kind of design



please do take my posting here as thoughts to energize your continued honing in on your new concept and not a dis on your wanting to do this. I have a group of bass playing friends who beat to death all of my concepts to flush away all of the 'hot compost' so I can grasp the good parts of something and move it forward in the right direction. the difference for me is that they aren't posting here in a public forum like this, and we all see each other face-to-face (eliminating miscommunications that can happen via a text only conversation like this one)


wishing you all the success on this,

R

I think the point we're trying to make is that there are not likely to be any "newbie" luthiers who will only build one bass/guitar. They'll build several and learn from their past experiences and mistakes. And because installing the trussrod is one of the less taxing portions of building a bass, a new bass builder would have more issues with other aspects of luthiery, whether it's radiusing, fret dressing, carving the neck/volute, or installing pickups and electronics. Besides, laziness doesn't need to be glorified in our society any more than it already is.

If you make a patent for your new idea, I would suggest to call it an "alternative" to a truss rod - although there has been no other device that's allowed the same adjustability as a truss rod. In addition, I don't understand how your "complex carbon fiber rod" with no moving parts could possibly be any different than a normal carbon fiber insert. I'd love to be proved wrong on this - as soon as you get your patent, of course. Cheers.

-Josh

BassLab also installs truss rods now, per customer request, even though their CF monocoque necks fully support string tension without movement, and are not reactive to environmental conditions.

Ok, i heard your point....

A neck needs a truss rod, that's what you all wantd to hear !!!

LMAO

thanks for your time guys.

Francois

even the "company" that makes carbon bolt-on necks learned that users require a trussrod to adjust the neck relief to their specific taste

Yep, and they invented the graphite neck.. (well it was Rick Turner along with Geoff Gould).

As far as no truss rods.. been done many times.. Martin, Danelectro, etc.

They switched to truss rods for a reason!

good replies guys,

it is not a simple Carbon fiber rod, it is a more complexe system that will be glued. this system will prevent sting tension movement but also twisting and warping movement from weather changes. Here in montreal, it can but 32 celsius in the summer to -22 in the winter plus a lot of humidity....

What i'm looking for it a system in which i can cnc machine your back neck contour + install the carbon fiber device + radius and slot your fingerboard, all you need is to glue it and a press to install the frets.

I wanna build a bass or guitar neck for dummies system....

For a luthier installing a truss rod is nothing but not for a newbie... What if your truss rod snap or if you strip the threads or the adjusting nut. This system can't break, there's no part in movement, it doesn't rust.....

what if you buy your neck blnak and the system is already install, the only thing you have to do is shaping the neck and glueing the FB?

Francois

Hey, it sounds like a cool idea though... keep working on it!

Personally I don't use any relief. But a lot of people do.

As far as no truss rods.. been done many times.. Martin, Danelectro, etc.

They switched to truss rods for a reason!It works for Vigier. No trussrod for over 20 years.
To answer the former post, I don't understand why you'd want a straight neck under strings that vibrate with a curve.

OTOH, if cheap guitars like Squiers had necks that were locked in to a "standard" neck relief shape and never moved (and that shape were produced properly), that could be a good thing. I think maybe this market never even considers adjusting the neck, or getting a fret job - just changing strings is a technical exercise for some - so a "perfect", invariant neck might work.

To answer the former post, I don't understand why you'd want a straight neck under strings that vibrate with a curve.

Lower action. I feel relief starts too close to the nut. With an open string the large part of the arc is at the middle of the string, which would be around the 24th fret. Fretting the string pushes the wide part of the arc farther up the neck, and there usually aren't any frets higher than the 24th anyway, so no relief is needed up there. Also the relief flattens out around the 12th fret, so most of that portion of the fingerboard is straight.

The reason a flat neck will work with a vibrating string is because the string is not the same distance above the fingerboard the entire distance... it gets higher as it goes up, which accommodates the string's arc pretty well.

What I think works better is a straight, or almost straight neck, and having the fingerboard ramp down as it approaches the end of the board. That's where you need the relief, and it's a common thing to do.

But it all depends on your playing and what feels good. And that's why adjustable necks are a good thing.

The middle of the string is at the 12th fret, not 24th. It is also where the body of the vibrating envelope is the widest and where you need the most relief.
Conveniently, this is exactly the shape of a properly adjusted neck. Most reliaf on 12th fret, barely any on first frets and way less on 24th.
If you want a proper setup on a flat neck, you will have to compromise with rattling strings at 12th fret and high action on first frets, where the strings already are hard to push.

The middle of the string is at the 12th fret, not 24th. It is also where the body of the vibrating envelope is the widest and where you need the most relief.
Conveniently, this is exactly the shape of a properly adjusted neck. Most reliaf on 12th fret, barely any on first frets and way less on 24th.
If you want a proper setup on a flat neck, you will have to compromise with rattling strings at 12th fret and high action on first frets, where the strings already are hard to push.

Yeah, you're correct... what was I thinking.. 12th fret. :hmm:

But still it's only the proper neck shape for an open string.

A lot of luthiers aren't using much relief anymore, and I find I like my necks almost perfectly straight.

For instance, here's Dan Erlewine's recommendation:

It’s important to achieve a straight neck. This is the preferred setup for most players, and it’s a necessary starting point for all setups. Some players, especially those who play with a heavy attack and like low action, will prefer to have some relief in the neck: this small amount of up-bow reduces buzzes and fret noise for these players. It’s a matter of personal preference.

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/i-3910/06_3910.gif


You can see that the neck flattens out from about the 9th fret. So you really don't have the relief under the 12th.

But it's all personal preference.

What I think you should do is make a system that would allow the user to set the bow of the neck without the strings on, thus making it so rigid that the string tension doesn't alter the bow. Then relief setting would become much easier, and would give player more room for fine-tuning.

What I think you should do is make a system that would allow the user to set the bow of the neck without the strings on, thus making it so rigid that the string tension doesn't alter the bow. Then relief setting would become much easier, and would give player more room for fine-tuning.

Double action rods let you do this. That combined with a super stiffener would be cool. There was a company once that put an aluminum honeycomb matrix in their neck along with the truss rod.

What I want to do is get a carbon fiber U channel and stick the rod in that.

but beware a too stiff neck, it could just render a trussrod useless. as I believe Wilser once discovered.

but beware a too stiff neck, it could just render a trussrod useless. as I believe Wilser once discovered.

Good point!

I make my necks very stiff... maple with purpleheart laminations, two truss rods with carbon fiber between, and a phenolic fingerboard laminated to maple and purpleheart veneers.

The truss rods work well, and I rarely have to adjust them.

But I see some people using really hard stiff woods for their necks... you really don't need to do all that! I now think mine are overbuilt as well.

Some of the nicest sounding necks I've heard were relatively soft wood.. poplar, basswood, limba, etc., and then stiffened up with graphite. They have a nice warm tone and a lot of sustain.

The "stiffness" of a neck, in my opnion, has nothing to do with how good a bass, or any instrument for that matter, will sound. The popular trend of multi-laminate necks does not seem to produce incredibely better sounding instruments. I believe it all comes down to, and not just in neck construction, matching or mismatching impedances of different materials. If stiffness would produce character, warmth, clarity, definition, growl, punch etc., wouldn't we all play concrete necks ? :smug:
A 3-piece maple neck with a truss rod and glued on frettboard is plenty strong for my needs.
And yes, I have built basses with Moses Grphite necks that I didn't really like, played necks with Graphite rods and found no difference in tone, response, playability etc. Yes, I am stuck in a rut, and I love it :)

The "stiffness" of a neck, in my opnion, has nothing to do with how good a bass, or any instrument for that matter, will sound. The popular trend of multi-laminate necks does not seem to produce incredibely better sounding instruments. I believe it all comes down to, and not just in neck construction, matching or mismatching impedances of different materials. If stiffness would produce character, warmth, clarity, definition, growl, punch etc., wouldn't we all play concrete necks ? :smug:

Very true!

A 3-piece maple neck with a truss rod and glued on frettboard is plenty strong for my needs.
And yes, I have built basses with Moses Grphite necks that I didn't really like, played necks with Graphite rods and found no difference in tone, response, playability etc. Yes, I am stuck in a rut, and I love it :)

I think just laminating a neck makes a big difference. I wont make one piece necks. The rest is just adding a little something. I can't say if the graphite rods are doing anything or not, since I haven't made a neck without them.

Like I said, I over built my necks from worrying about them too much! I do like the end result though. :D

Hey, thats a very cool looking headstock. Has a Picasso vibe.

Very true!



I think just laminating a neck makes a big difference. I wont make one piece necks. The rest is just adding a little something. I can't say if the graphite rods are doing anything or not, since I haven't made a neck without them.

Like I said, I over built my necks from worrying about them too much! I do like the end result though. :D

Hey, thats a very cool looking headstock. Has a Picasso vibe.

Don't change a winning team ;)

My first bass that I built had a 9-piece wenge/maple neck and boy, it sounded like pure crap ...
My most recent necks are made of 2 pieces of maple with a contrasting veneer down the middle, single truss rod and frettboard. They sound much better then anything I have built so far.

I'm glad you like my headstock. Did you mean to say that it has a Guild/Neuman Leathers vibe ? :p

I like the idea of including a truss rod in my Carbon fiber device. I don't think it would be too much of a problem and it would make everybody happy, LOL

IS it a problem for you guys to work with epoxy instead of wood glue? Epoxy works perfect with Carbon fiber but what about you???

thanks

francois

My skin type doesn't glue well with epoxy. I don't know about other people on this forum :smug:
Epoxy is usually looked down upon by luthiers, but I don't think it lessens the quality of an instrument. It doesn't improve it either however ...

Did you mean to say that it has a Guild/Neuman Leathers vibe ? :p

No, that would be a musty old building smell vibe. :p

Picasso or even Wandre.

The thing about making a really stiff neck is to marry it to a warm sounding body.

I don't like wenge... I refuse to use it.

My current build has a maple/mahogony/perpleheart/birdseye maple neck (outside to middle), on an ash with bigleaf quilt top.

Should be interesting to hear what comes out of that.

http://hoboken411.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/neumann%20leather.JPG

http://hoboken411.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/neumann%20sign.JPG

http://hoboken411.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/neumann%20door.JPG

I like the idea of including a truss rod in my Carbon fiber device. I don't think it would be too much of a problem and it would make everybody happy, LOL

Moses was making a nice U channel, but they don't make it anymore. I was going to try that.

IS it a problem for you guys to work with epoxy instead of wood glue? Epoxy works perfect with Carbon fiber but what about you???

You have to use epoxy. Epoxy is good stuff. We use epoxy to glue all our fingerboards on. We use Industrial Formulations G-1 & G-2 Epoxy (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20011&cat=1,110,42965&ap=1). I used G-2 to glue an entire bass together! I think that bass has a bit more presence than the same model glued with Titebond. It was messy to work with though, so I probably wouldn't do that again!

I glued up my current neck blank with G-2.

West Systems is another good brand.

Wear gloves though, as epoxy isn't all that good for you before it's cured.

Epoxy is usually looked down upon by luthiers, but I don't think it lessens the quality of an instrument. It doesn't improve it either however ...

Gee, I don't know about that... a lot of luthiers use epoxy. If for no other reason, a lot of luthiers use CF for everything from neck to brace stiffeners. These are the same people who use hot hide glue. ;)

Gee, I don't know about that... a lot of luthiers use epoxy. If for no other reason, a lot of luthiers use CF for everything from neck to brace stiffeners. These are the same people who use hot hide glue. ;)

Mmmhhh, those european instrument makers are very traditional and those crazy american ones are, well, crazy ! :smug:

I read many things about carbon fiber sound , they say its metallic. Polyethylene fibers are the closest to wood sound. I dont like carbon because it is black and make the instrument like metallica teen gear. I think you can try kevlar , its in golden color and easier to work with and times cheaper than the carbon cloth. You can even make your own cloth fabric pattern with kevlar rowing techniques taken from north sails three dimensional laminate techniques. - its a fantasy but a requirement for a purist , i think -
Instrument making is a serious business than many thinks. There is finite element analysis programs - algor , catia and others - which simulates neck under load and vibration.
If you want to climb the top of the business , look to martin schleske violin makers from munich.
You give them a stradivari and they totally copy its all vibrations for all possible playing with totally different shape instrument !
modal analysis , accelerometers , hundreds of points and their communication at a computer program and calculation of graduation of top , bottom , neck , fingerboard and everything.
If you really want to copy a fender jazz bass - if you worship it -with a fiber reinforced plastic instrument , this is where you have to read from.
If you want to produce carbon necks with wasting 50 for each and selling for 500 , , advise you to not to invent bass again and purely copy the best selling neck with molding it with silicone rubber.
If you want to be a purist , contact with martin and ask from him some reference books , papers on business.
Accelerometers vary from extreme cheap to 250 dollars . You can download the simulation softwares from mininova.org with microtorrent program free.
If there is a mechanical or industrial engineering school at near to you , you can get students help.
If you still want to build in carbon , there is graphite powders easily mixed with epoxy and cast in to the mold. its again black again carbon but 10 times cheaper. WEST sells color reinforcing powders also
dont forget to add a ultrasonic speaker for to remove the bubbles in mold.
i think you will get a patent , big companies crack the patents with genetic algorithmic design techniques.
You think you are signing the best product but computers attack the design and mutate thousands times in a second and find a better optimal design than your invention.
if you know how to mutate your design in a computer , you will want to get second and third patents.
this is all i knew.
best ,

mustafa umut sarac

Kevlar has very different properties from carbon fiber. It is not in any way a substitute.

Likewise, a composite made of graphite powder in an epoxy base will have properties not at all like oriented carbon fiber in any polymeric matrix.

Is it just me, or does Mustafa always seem to write out of left fiald?

Hi Everyone,

First of all, I'm a bit of a latecomer here, so I'll recap a couple
of points from a few posts ago.

-Modulus necks included truss rods for a few reasons,
chief among which is that they need them. I own and
play a Modulus Q6, and I wish it had one.
It needs it. Too much relief. Period.

Any, any, any neck will deflect under string tension.
It may be too little to notice, but I have yet to come across
a neck that confirms even that. It's always noticeable,
or at least measurable.

-The OPs idea is a "necks for dummies" system. To me,
this need is already met by Warmoth, WD, USACG, etc. etc.
I'm not sure where the advantage is.

-I've built otherwise identical basses where one neck was
noticeably more flexible than the other...same maple from
the same pile, both graphite reinforced (2x 1/4" square bars).
Interestingly enough, 3 of us agreed that the more
flexible neck sounded a little better.

We've all been tempted by the idea of necks without rods.
It's a nice, charming concept, which is kind of risky.
Sometimes it works, but more often IME it doesn't.
We even put rods in our nylon-string guitars, and
I'm glad we do - I often end up using them to adjust
the final action to someone's taste.

-If weight reduction is the goal, you can accomplish that
with an "alternative" rod. Ken Parker's 1-way piano-wire
"rods" were 18-20g or so, and Teuffel makes a 2-way rod
that is under 30g. You can't really ask for lighter.
Adding a graphite fabric skin to the exterior of the neck,
again a la Parker, is the only other way I can think of
to appreciably increase the stiffness of a neck without
invasive routing. This, and possibly the wire rod, are
patented ideas, though...

As ever, my question is this: what are you really trying to
accomplish, and for whom? Is there a market, and how will
the new product be better than what's currently available?

Finally, and I don't mean this to sound cranky - we are all subject to the desire to make something new or different, just
because it's new and different. I've found it's always best to
determine an actual need, and then use available techniques and
materials to meet it, rather than the inverse.

That said - if you have the time, energy, and means to
experiment with this, then go for it! You could end up
with something that really works well and shuts us all right up.

Peace,
Martin

-I've built otherwise identical basses where one neck was
noticeably more flexible than the other...same maple from
the same pile, both graphite reinforced (2x 1/4" square bars).
Interestingly enough, 3 of us agreed that the more
flexible neck sounded a little better.


Keith, how were you able to determine that it was the neck, that made the difference ?

I really don't see why, other then as an engineering exercise/novum, one would not want a truss rod. I find it to be perfect for adjusting the action/feel of the instrument. A purist might not like the idea of having a threaded "screw" in his wood neck, but unless one approaches upright bass neck dimensions, one can't do without ( or some other means of counteracting the string pull ).
This might have been debated ad nauseum, but these graphite rods @ ~1/4"X1/2" ( or so ) , before they get glued in, do not feel stronger/stiffer then a same sized piece of maple, padauk, wenge, purpleheart etc.
Even the graphite u-channel that David mentioned, can be flexed considerably with very little force. Might just bee my supernatural bicep strength :smug:
Please prove me wrong ...

it's interesting people are talking about trussrod-free necks and saying that it's "simple" just put in graphite stiffeners...

interesting...

is it really "easy" to do this? or would it be simpler to just use a conventional trussrod?


I have a trussrod-free bass, by the way...it is stiff as a board...hasn't moved in the 3 1/2 years I've had it...it's as thick as a baseball bat...5 laminations maple/purpleheart/maple/purpleheart/maple...with a purpleheart fingerboard, that neck is going NOWHERE...no graphite, no trussrod...just solid, SOLID wood...

yes, it's a wishbass, and yes it gets a lot of "YUK" responses by most TBers...don't blame them, the finish and attention to detail is AWEFUL (although I did improve it SIGNIFICANTLY!)...

but we're talking about construction techniques here, not finish techniques...

IMO...I'll take a bass with a trussrod, thanks, that way, I can set it up the way that I want.

I shouldn't... but...

Polyethylene fibers are the closest to wood sound.

Would that be; UHMWPE, HDPE, PEX, MDPE, LLDPE, LDPE, or VLDPE? And how would you plan on gluing that stuff? Not with epoxy! Polythene is pretty soft. Aluminum has a closer modulus to wood.

UHMWPE is commonly used for jigs when you don't want glue to stick to it. It's also not very rigid.


I dont like carbon because it is black and make the instrument like metallica teen gear.

Paint it. Better yet, put it inside a wood neck.


If you really want to copy a fender jazz bass

I don't think we really need any more Jazz Bass copies. It's boring enough as it is!

If you still want to build in carbon , there is graphite powders easily mixed with epoxy and cast in to the mold.

Have you ever used graphite guitar picks or worked with graphite nuts? They are very weak. You need the long strands of carbon fiber. Power will not do.

i think you will get a patent , big companies crack the patents with genetic algorithmic design techniques.

Genetic?

You think you are signing the best product but computers attack the design and mutate thousands times in a second and find a better optimal design than your invention.

No one does this... it's pure fantasy. Otherwise someone would have come out with a better iPod! ;)


if you know how to mutate your design in a computer , you will want to get second and third patents.

Doesn't work that way. You must show you have either improved on a design, or you have something novel.

-I've built otherwise identical basses where one neck was noticeably more flexible than the other...same maple from the same pile, both graphite reinforced (2x 1/4" square bars). Interestingly enough, 3 of us agreed that the more
flexible neck sounded a little better.

The neck you liked better was probably lighter in weight. We've made some necks from basswood and poplar, and they sound great... but you have to stiffen them.

We've all been tempted by the idea of necks without rods.

Not me! I use two truss rods and graphite in my basses!

-If weight reduction is the goal, you can accomplish that with an "alternative" rod. Ken Parker's 1-way piano-wire "rods" were 18-20g or so, and Teuffel makes a 2-way rod
that is under 30g. You can't really ask for lighter. Adding a graphite fabric skin to the exterior of the neck, again a la Parker, is the only other way I can think of to appreciably increase the stiffness of a neck without invasive routing. This, and possibly the wire rod, are
patented ideas, though...

Parker did that because it's a very lightweight neck made from basswood. The music wire might not work on a maple neck. He wanted to keep the weight down for tonal reasons, and also to not have the guitar neck heavy. He also has that fiberglass and carbon fretboard. The carbon fiber isn't just on the back of the neck, it extends all the way down the body. His inspiration was medieval lute neck design. They used a soft wood covered in something like ebony veneer.

Some of the newer parkers with harder wood necks have conventional truss rods, but they are very thin.

As ever, my question is this: what are you really trying to accomplish, and for whom? Is there a market, and how will the new product be better than what's currently available?

I use graphite because I feel it adds stability, and also I can hear where it evens out the response of the neck. I have zero dead spots, every note is even in volume, and I rarely have to adjust my necks.

Sometimes it's nice to try some high tech stuff. :)

BTW, there's no need to hit return at the end of your lines... it auto wraps.

Just to confirm the trussrod issue in the case of BassLab: The instruments were originally built without trussrods, but it was due to my urging that they were added. And it was done purely for adjustablity - they are not needed for strength at all. The monocoque construction and materials used are plenty strong enough, while retaining the ability to resonate in a musically useful manner. The trussrod simply allows the instrument to be adjusted to the players taste.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a bass without a truss rod. As far as graphite goes, I think Modulus hit a home run with the Genesis necks.