For many here Metallica died with Cliff Burton ( All praise and peace be upon his name ) Do you think the And Justice for All album is an acceptable album ?

I try not to think in terms of before Cliff, after Cliff...

Justice is an Awesome metal album. All it needs for me it for the bass to be a little more audible.

I think AJFA was a very solid record, but I (like most bassists) would have liked the bass to be audible on it.

Then again, the bass wasn't all that audible on Kill Em All, Ride the Lightning, or Master of Puppets.

I liked the bass tone (and mix level) on Garage Days. Not sure why James felt that Metallica sounds better with 1 dimensional, boxy low end and reverted back to the undefined rumble of the earlier albums for AJFA.

I like the '90 box set of the shows from AJFA and the Black Album tours--you can actually HEAR the bass, and I think Jason was doing good stuff there. And, of course, the Black album sounds great.

It'll be interesting to hear their next album--if Robert's influence comes through in their writing and mix.

I thought that St. Anger sounded like CRAP--they should have scrapped the CD and just provided the audio from the (included) DVD -- release it as a "live in-studio" album.

I hope they continue to innovate and challenge themselves; the results COULD be interesting.

I just believe James Hetfield became too controlling at the time after Cliff's death (Between writing and "say so")(Which for Cliff's era of the band, he had alot of input and contributions), which threw Newstead's work directly in the "back seat" for this album, which If I were to guess, I don't think Cliff would have wanted it that way (IMO).
So, bass-wise, In Justice for all is not acceptable (IMO). For the writing aspect of the rest of the instruments, very acceptable.

AJFA is still my favorite Metallica record....but I wish the bass was more audible.

Not really a big fan of AJFA but it wasn't bad. However, IMHO it is a million times better than everything that has followed.

AJFA is my favorite of all time really. Songwriting is superb. You can feel the emotion in the songs when they recorded that.

I think Cliff would have approved of that album. The albums after that, no freakin' way. That album was the last great work that Metallica did IMO. That was their sound. That was their "Moving Pictures", like Rush had. After Moving Pictures Rush kind of got a little weak. So did Metallica after AJFA. The corporate side of music began to take over and it became a bunch of radio-friendly country metal. Cliff Burton would not approve of that.:scowl: All of this IMHO.

I am a die hard "Cliff era Metallica fan" and love the music he contributed towards, especially his work on Call of Ktulu and Orion.

That said, AJFA is an awesome album in its own right and I spent many hours listening to the album. I have wondered how Cliff would have approached writing the bass parts, but I still think Jason did the album, and the band, justice. For all ;)

Why do many of you feel that Cliff would not approve of the Load albums ?

Why do many of you feel that Cliff would not approve of the Load albums ?

Because it wasn't Metallica...it was Bob Rock.:rollno:

I'm not a huge Metallica fan though I do have all their albums. I rate Justice below Black. I think the problem with Load/Reload and also St Anger was the band were too self-aware and thinking too hard about what they should be doing or what the fashions in metal were.

I didn't feel that Justice is a good record at all. The "songwriting" is scattered and unfocused, and the tone is simply terrible.

Bands live and die based on their chemistry between the bandmates. Losing Cliff was the end of the Metallica magic.

Why do many of you feel that Cliff would not approve of the Load albums ?
unspired songwriting to say the least, a far more compromising sound, and the band basically went with the trends in popular music at the time (MUCH shorter song forms, far less complex music, few if any soloing i don't recall any on load or reload but then again i threw my copy of reload out and i only listen to hero of the day off of load) ESPECIALLY with reload. i mean **** man listen to load and reload and then go put on master of puppets or ride the lightning it doesn't even sound like the same god damned band

to use an analogy if music is a conversation with load and reload metallica was lying :P if not just to all of us then at least to themselves

and besides the poor mixing job and justice for all is a great album still that id recommend

I love the songs on Justice, but admit that the album did lag at points (most notably on Frayed Ends Of Sanity). I also think Jason was a great addition for Metallica and although he doesn't shine on Justice, his playing can be heard on the Black album, Load/Reload, and Garage Inc. Overall I'd say I dig Jason's playing more than Cliffs (still like the guy). And there's no point in bringing up what Cliff would have thought of their work without him because all we can gather from him is through bits of interviews that are 20 years + old.

Blackened is an awesome song, the rest is OK. the tone is terrible though.

I listen to BTBAM's cover of Blackened, it sounds better.

I love Puppets, Lightning and Kill 'Em All, after those three they moved in a direction I did not like. I'm interested in what Rob Trujillo (sp?) brings, if he gets to bring anything, to the next record.

+1 to Ben Strange.

Blackened is awesome and the rest of the record is solid stuff. Not as good as Load or Reload though, which are my favourite Metallica albums.

I think Justice and Puppets were their best albums, even though they could each use a re-mix on the bass. Newsted is a solid bassist. Sound engineers never did him any 'Justice'.

I think Justice and Puppets were their best albums, even though they could each use a re-mix on the bass. Newsted is a solid bassist. Sound engineers never did him any 'Justice'.

There's a rare remix of Puppets and Ride with far improved bass (guitar/drums sound a bit better as well). You can actually hear the bass on Puppets a lot of the time with a little EQ on your end! Amazing.

Unfortunately they added some dynamic range compression to the remixes (Why? To an audiophile gold disk?!), but it's not too bad...

Now if we are talking about the best Metallica-album ever, it would be 'Master Of Puppets', without a doubt. And of course that is with Cliff on bass :p

Does anyone have the link to the remixed version with bass turned up?

Nothing wrong with AJFA IMO besides the mix. Probably my second favorite Metallica album after Puppets.

Does anyone have the link to the remixed version with bass turned up?

Bump.

Add me to the "AJFA is my favorite" camp. The guitar tone is the most bone-crushing thing since bone-crushing was invented, and inevitably overused and abused by all the popular crowds back then (when all the cool stuff was invented). Right after AJFA came out, me and my little brother pooled allowance, and bought a crap-tastic boombox from Wally-World to play all the coolest tapes on. I believe it was a super high quality Emerson with like four 3" drivers or something like that. AJFA would fart the poor woofers out, and caused our epic purchase of some most-excellent gear to last all of about 3 days. Thank God Wal Mart was stupid back then and accepted some rediculous returns. I remember stories of worn out tennis shoes and stained underwear. Eww.

But yeah. AJFA? That's where the phrase "God-like guitar tone" came from. I think I read that in a Metal Edge or RIP... can't remember, too many chemistry experiments right around that point in time.

I started listening to Metallica between RTL and MOP, and I consider those my favorites. The bass was always a bit low for my taste, however to my ears I can't tell if the bass tracks on AJFA are even on!

As an album, I thought AJFA held up well with its predecessors, all complaints about the mix and lack of bass aside. I would love to hear it remixed (officially), although I doubt that would happen. ;)

In the years since TBA came out, it's grown on me and it still stands up in my mind as having the best bass sound/mix, for what that's worth.

Add me to the "AJFA is my favorite" camp. The guitar tone is the most bone-crushing thing since bone-crushing was invented, and inevitably overused and abused by all the popular crowds back then (when all the cool stuff was invented). Right after AJFA came out, me and my little brother pooled allowance, and bought a crap-tastic boombox from Wally-World to play all the coolest tapes on. I believe it was a super high quality Emerson with like four 3" drivers or something like that. AJFA would fart the poor woofers out, and caused our epic purchase of some most-excellent gear to last all of about 3 days. Thank God Wal Mart was stupid back then and accepted some rediculous returns. I remember stories of worn out tennis shoes and stained underwear. Eww.

But yeah. AJFA? That's where the phrase "God-like guitar tone" came from. I think I read that in a Metal Edge or RIP... can't remember, too many chemistry experiments right around that point in time.


i thought AJFA was criticized alot for its no mid guitar sound :/.

The songs on ...And Justice For All are fine, some are actually quite good. The engineering is just terrible, and the performances are stiff and uninspired. It just doesn't feel like a band in a room rocking out. Compared to the quantized and triggered abortions passing for metal these days I suppose it doesn't seem that bad, but compare it to any good 80's thrash record(say Reign in Blood, or Killing Technology, or Beneath the Remains, or even the first three Metallica records) and it just feels stiff and lacking in energy. Also, the total lack of bass is only one of many problems with the sound of that record. Just a terrible engineering job.

i thought AJFA was criticized alot for its no mid guitar sound :/.

Depends on which side of the fence you stood. Some praised it for zooming in on the scooped sound. Either way, it wasn't very nice to cheap speakers when cranked.

But as far as the "stiff and uninspired" feel of the album, I think alot of people have the black and white video to One playing in their head when they try to sum up their overall feeling of the album. Try keeping the songs Frayed Ends of Sanity, and Dyers Eve in mind rather than the video for One.

The first three Metallica albums are my favorite, hands down.

AJFA never did anything for me and I rarely listen to it. Oddly, I like The Black Album quite a bit and I listen to it all the time. I especially dig Newsted's playing on it.

When the band changed their name to Alternica and released Load and Reload I stopped caring for their music.

Then, when they changed their name again to NuMetallica and released StAnger, I just stopped listening altoghther.

The fact that I'm a Cliff Burton fan has nothing to do with why I don't like their later albums with Jason Newsted.

IMHO alot was lost with Cliff, especially the chemistry they had. They always said they weren't the best musicians, they were just four good friends. Thats why they made such killer albums IMO, the chemisty. Oddly enough, nlike most Metallica fans I DONT hate the Black Album, I think it was very well written and more focused than the previous albums even though I DO like the previous four albums more. The Loads were just that, loads, excpet for a few gems like Fixxxer and Whiskey in the Jar.

Another thing I feel like people dont recognize is that James more than likely cant sing the way he once did and that will always change thingss. I think it would b really awesome to see them do some more bluesy metal type stuff to fit his voice, or some more things with a sailor feel to it like Whiskey.

it's one of metalica's best and the composition style is similar to MOP so i think cliff would have approved. the stuff after that was just pop music with heavy guitars and i don't think cliff would have approved of that. stanger is the odd one out as it's not poppy, just crappy.

Depends on which side of the fence you stood. Some praised it for zooming in on the scooped sound. Either way, it wasn't very nice to cheap speakers when cranked.


I hadn't thought about that in years - I had a buddy who blew out at least 3 sets of speakers in his car and he swore up and down that Metallica killed speakers. He loved Metallica and cranked AJFA very loudly - I remember thinking he was fooling himself and that everything else he cranked must be hard on speakers too (megadeth, pantera, anthrax, queensrych, etc) But he was sure it was only Metallica that destroyed speakers. I guess he was right?

I hear rumor that the soon to be released Metallica will once again be very different, but supposedly - this time in a good way. I've heard rumor that it's good and we'll like it. (I haven't bought a Metallica record or ticket since the black album) I hope the rumor is true and that I do like it. We'll see.

It's my favorite metallica album, and I think cliff would approve.
I'm not a cliff fan though.

It's an amazing album, the bass just needs to be unburied.

I hadn't thought about that in years - I had a buddy who blew out at least 3 sets of speakers in his car and he swore up and down that Metallica killed speakers. He loved Metallica and cranked AJFA very loudly - I remember thinking he was fooling himself and that everything else he cranked must be hard on speakers too (megadeth, pantera, anthrax, queensrych, etc) But he was sure it was only Metallica that destroyed speakers. I guess he was right?

I hear rumor that the soon to be released Metallica will once again be very different, but supposedly - this time in a good way. I've heard rumor that it's good and we'll like it. (I haven't bought a Metallica record or ticket since the black album) I hope the rumor is true and that I do like it. We'll see.

I think they were all hard on speakers. I'm not saying it was just Metallica, or just AJFA. But they started scooping everything very heavily, and if you cranked it loud enough to compete with the apparent loudness of the other stuff, songs like Shortest Straw just turned into short, choppy bouts of speaker breakup. Kinda sounded cool in a way...

I still really dig AJFA. As far as newer stuff, I was a big fan of TBA (Sad But True is a stunningly massive song live, when they slow it down just a little bit). I like some songs on the Load/Reload but the snare sound on StAnger just grates at me.

Looking forward to the next album: Rick Rubin and Rob Trujillo, could be interesting.

Later
Rob

its one of my favorites...i liked them all until load....i dont know...it just doesn't have the kick that the rest had.....

st anger sounded like it was recorded in a bathroom....ugh

After buying a tab/CD-playalong for AJFA, I realized that the bass was buried in the mix because it sucked! Jason was overplaying and his basslines were.... umm... not good IMO. I don't think he had found his "place" in the band yet and maybe he was trying too hard to be like Cliff. Anyways, Jason's playing on subsequent albums sounded much more appropriate, and guess what.... it was audible. Complicated basslines, for complexity's sake, never work. He should have kept it simple on AJFA, and played what the songs needed. Then they'd have turned him up.

If you don't believe me, buy the playalong. And, you'll realize just how NOT present the bass actually is, it's totally absent!

I don't think of that album as to do with Cliff. And I literally started my bass playing career by learning every album note for note for many years... I love AJFA. It was the peak of their song/riff writing for sure, even if the production does suck. The only low end on that entire album is the bass drum itself. Ugh.

There are a few parts you can actually hear a bass in there, like the bridge sections of the title track when they are doing the fast pull on/off section, but that's it.

And to say the bass is 'unheard' on the first few albums, you're not really listening then. It's there, just not prominent. You should especially listen on first issue vinyl, it's glorious.

Now if we are talking about the best Metallica-album ever, it would be 'Master Of Puppets', without a doubt. And of course that is with Cliff on bass :p


BIG +1 here. Cliff was so influential to me back in the day!
AJFA is still a killer record but i remember saying to myself, "Wha happened to the bass! I mean come on, there's no bassist playing on that record:rolleyes: Sorry Jason, but it sounded like a disco smile with all the eq'd marshall amps.

Gimme: Kill Em All over AJFA any day!
Or anything from garage days revisited. Now were talking!

the band basically went with the trends in popular music at the time

What, exactly, is wrong with this? The idea of music at their level is to make money. If it's what people are buying, then by all means, do it. I defy 90% of the people here to say that they would do any different if it meant making “it” vs. just being another unknown band. I've always found the extra criticism that Metallica gets is a bit hypocritical.

(MUCH shorter song forms, far less complex music, few if any soloing i don't recall any on load or reload but then again i threw my copy of reload out and i only listen to hero of the day off of load)

Metallica paid their dues to get to where they're at and they can do whatever the hell they want now. As far as the solos go, Kirk Hammett said on Some Kind Of Monster that he just got tired of doing a solo every freaking(edit) time. The funny thing is, after he stopped, so did everybody else. That's when you've made it, when everybody does what you do.

i mean **** man listen to load and reload and then go put on master of puppets or ride the lightning it doesn't even sound like the same god damned band

And if they hadn't evolved, the same people complaining here would be complaining that Metallica always does the same thing. They would be criticized for doing the same thing over and over. I just think that people should lay off them; they’ve earned it by now.

BTW, unlike most people, I actually enjoy all their albums (yes, even St. Anger) and find the evolution of Metallica interesting. I can’t wait for the new album.