Hey guys, I was wondering what I could do to improve my left hand technique. In my video that I posted on YouTube (see here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-P0BmV_4pk)

Skywalkerla5 noticed something that I have been struggling with myself, particularly with that first song. I cant seem to stretch out my fingers very far on the E and A strings, if I am playing a chord (as seen in the video.) I have been practising scales though and am thinking that that may help me. Does anyone else here have that same problem? What are your guy's (or ladies ;)) suggestions?


Thank you in advance,
Trav

It looks like you're pressing really hard down on the fret board. You may not be, but it looks that way from the video.

Also, you can try some finger exercises, keeping one finger per fret and working your way up the neck.

Ex: (1 = index, 2 = middle, 3 = ring, 4 = pinky)
1234
2143
3124
4123
...and so on.

After you master on a single string, start combining the combinations stretching over multiple strings. It's a pain when you're learning to do it, but the pay off is well worth it.

Best of luck!

To further "Slax" comments there is a great book called "Bass Fitness" and it really takes his suggestions to the next level and can be very good in helping you keep thosefingers spreed out!

First of all get your thumb off of the top of the fingerboard, and learn how to relax your hand so it is parallel to the fingerboard. The highest your thumb should go is the center of the neck and it should be placed behind the middle or ring finger. Relax your hand so that your pinky isn't curled under or below the fingerboard see this (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4358024&postcount=47) for a picture. Read the whole thread that I linked to it has some good suggestions. This will help you whether you want to use classical 124 technique or the above mentioned one finger per fret technique. Getting your pinky up and your hand parallel to the fingerboard will make a huge difference.

I agree that it looks like your playing with a death grip but more importantly you seem to be playing consistantly with only one finger?

You need to start playing with 1 finger per fret and stretch with the index or pinky and stay in a single position when possible.

When you "bounce" around on the finger board playing every note as if it is the "first" position of a shift the groove suffers. It doesn't flow.

Fretboard Harmony by Gary Willis is probably one of the best left hand books out there.

Check it out.

And yes your playing sounds good! You just need to relax a little and take more advantage of the "economy of motion".

Peace and all the best,

Gerry

I'm a bit confused, but thank you all for the great info!

What I am confused about is the one finger-per-fret thing. Should my wrist be slightly bent when I'm doing that? Because it seems I can't do it any other way, and my fingers turn to the right a bit, on the board, if that makes any sense.

Also, while doing that, my thumb is not perpendicular to the back of the fret...its pointing up mostly, not sideways. Bad thing?

I'm a bit confused, but thank you all for the great info!

What I am confused about is the one finger-per-fret thing. Should my wrist be slightly bent when I'm doing that? Because it seems I can't do it any other way, and my fingers turn to the right a bit, on the board, if that makes any sense.

Also, while doing that, my thumb is not perpendicular to the back of the fret...its pointing up mostly, not sideways. Bad thing?

I wouldn't say the angle of your thumb is as important as keeping the meat of your thumb between the tip and first knuckle on the neck comfortably. This gives you a nice pivot point for when you're crossing strings.

My Geddy neck has knuckles?:eyebrow: That's confusing. I am also under the impression now that if my thumb EVER goes over my neck, that that's a BIG no-no. Is this true or am I just sort of over thinking it too much or something?

I wouldn't worry about one finger per fret right now, take care of your grip first.

Your thumb should be parallel to the frets. If your holding it perpendicular that's a large part of your problem. Try to hold your thumb and your fingers parallel to the frets and your palm parallel to the fingerboard. The straighter your wrist the better, but you may need to change the way you hold the bass to achieve this. And yes thumb over the neck is a big no-no, it limits your range of motion, makes it very hard to relax your hand and actually weakens your hand. Look at the link that I posted before it shows an example of good hand position.

If you learn how to do it properly your fingers should be strong enough to play without even having your thumb on the neck at all.

just relax.

I wouldn't worry about one finger per fret right now, take care of your grip first.

Your thumb should be parallel to the frets. If your holding it perpendicular that's a large part of your problem. Try to hold your thumb and your fingers parallel to the frets and your palm parallel to the fingerboard. The straighter your wrist the better, but you may need to change the way you hold the bass to achieve this. And yes thumb over the neck is a big no-no, it limits your range of motion, makes it very hard to relax your hand and actually weakens your hand. Look at the link that I posted before it shows an example of good hand position.

If you learn how to do it properly your fingers should be strong enough to play without even having your thumb on the neck at all.

My hand hurts if I try to make my wrist bend that way though and I find it very comfortable to have my thumb over the neck, but not necessarily wrapped around it. Is that such a bad thing? Oddly enough, I've seen Geddy play (I was in Denver CO, front row center, rockin' out..was wicked, got two guitar pics, smiles from Ged and Alex, it was INSANE!!) and Ged's thumb is never strictly behind the board at all times. I have also noticed that on the R30/Rio/ASOH/ESL/GUP DVD's too.


Also, check out this Ox video, John has his thumb over the neck the majority of the time it seems:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IfDE-ZvfOwU

First of all get your thumb off of the top of the fingerboard, and learn how to relax your hand so it is parallel to the fingerboard. The highest your thumb should go is the center of the neck and it should be placed behind the middle or ring finger. Relax your hand so that your pinky isn't curled under or below the fingerboard see this (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4358024&postcount=47) for a picture. Read the whole thread that I linked to it has some good suggestions. This will help you whether you want to use classical 124 technique or the above mentioned one finger per fret technique. Getting your pinky up and your hand parallel to the fingerboard will make a huge difference.

Right on. Well spotted, I agree completely that the OP's thumb is causing a lot of his problem. I have an excercise I do with all my students to start them getting their thumb into the correct position. First start on B on your A string (2nd fret) with your index finger. Now before you put your thumb down, place your pinky on D (5th fret) while still fretting B with your index. Now let your thumb rest where it is most comfortable, this should be in between the two fingers. Don't apply any pressure to your thumb just let it sit there. Now release your index and pinky and leave your thumb in place, once again don't press down. Now play C major using only one finger per fret in that position.

So play middle, pinky on the A string
index middle pinky on the D string
index ring pinky on the G string
and descend

Your thumb should have stayed in the one spot.

The other thing I noticed was that you are curling your pinky under the fingerboard when you play and turning your hand sideways. Get your pinky back above the fingerboard and that will solve a lot of your problems too. Turning your hand is sometimes necessary, if you are playing an arpeggio or something like that, but for now I would practice getting your thumb into the right position as a pivot point.

Right on. Well spotted, I agree completely that the OP's thumb is causing a lot of his problem. I have an excercise I do with all my students to start them getting their thumb into the correct position. First start on B on your A string (2nd fret) with your index finger. Now before you put your thumb down, place your pinky on D (5th fret) while still fretting B with your index. Now let your thumb rest where it is most comfortable, this should be in between the two fingers. Don't apply any pressure to your thumb just let it sit there. Now release your index and pinky and leave your thumb in place, once again don't press down. Now play C major using only one finger per fret in that position.

So play middle, pinky on the A string
index middle pinky on the D string
index ring pinky on the G string
and descend

Your thumb should have stayed in the one spot.

The other thing I noticed was that you are curling your pinky under the fingerboard when you play and turning your hand sideways. Get your pinky back above the fingerboard and that will solve a lot of your problems too. Turning your hand is sometimes necessary, if you are playing an arpeggio or something like that, but for now I would practice getting your thumb into the right position as a pivot point.

Man, I see what you're getting at but that's quite discomforting (index on 2nd and pinky on 5th fret on A string.) not to mention the excessive amount of fret buzz I get from my pinky on the 5th fret.

As far as the pinky ting goes when I am curling it, it is very comfy. I can't seem to find...it just seems weird to be playing the begining of Combat Baby with my pinky in the way, you know what I mean? I'm under the assumption that my hand is not supposed to hurt while doing this, right?

What did you think of my previous post? I think (and am not the only one) that Entwistle was one of the best rock bassist out there. Was his thumb getting in the way of his sound, do you think, just out of curiosity?

Also, keep in mind that when I play bass, I have to sit. Having cerebral palsy, and standing playing bass doesn't mix at all, obviously. Edit: I Doubt that that has anything to do with it though.


I just noticed someone else doing the same thing (thumb over the fretboard) Chris Wolstenholme from Muse does that a lot too.


So,
Geddy Lee
John Entwistle
Chris Wolstenholme
John Paul Jones

What am I doing differently than these professional, big bucks musicians are doing? Not much, it seems.

I wouldn't recommend looking to Entwistle as a guide for good technical practices. Not to undermine what he did, it worked and it worked well for him. On the other hand I can tell you after watching what you were doing that the technique you were using is a big factor in you not being able to play as efficiently as you might want. The amount of movement you have to do with your hand is making a lot of difference to how many notes you can play and how much work you have to do.

Now, I am not a medical expert so I can't say how much of a factor your cerebral palsy is on your fine motor skills and how you coordinate your hands, but I will stay under the assumption that other than whether you are standing or sitting is the only real factor for now, unless you tell me otherwise.

I tend to sit down to play a lot, If I am doing a session or teaching I sit. If I am practicing, I sit. If I am rehearsing with a band, I will mostly sit unless I have to sing and play in which case I will probably lean/sit on one of those nice tall stools when I can. The only time I really tend to stand is when I gig. So, with that said sitting is not the issue. I still apply the same technique to playing either way.

As for your hand hurting, and once again without factoring the effects of cerebral palsy into it, I will tell you this; The things you are doing for comfort now are actually making more work for you in the big picture. While doing these exercises is uncomfortable at first they are key to building strength and good technique in the long term. The fret buzz is coming from the fact that your pinky is weak at the moment. Over time if you keep exercising your fingers they will gain strength and the discomfort will disappear until you feel completely natural using all your fingers. The only thing you need to be aware of is not to overextend your wrist as this can lead to carpal tunnel and repetitive stress injuries. Keep your wrist in a nice relaxed position and angle your hand, elbow and shoulder instead.

I used to have a lot of the same habits I see you with and believe me it's worth a little effort to iron some of them out even if it's uncomfortable at first.

At least King Crimson has a bassist who can play.

My suggestion to stretch fingers is basically play songs that require it thats what I did. Good examples are Cowboys From Hell and Master of Puppets.

also this is a great exercise


---------------------------------0-1-2-3-4-3-2-1-0
----------------------0-1-2-3-4--------------------4-3-2-1-0
------------0-1-2-3-4----------------------------------------4-2-3-1-0
-0-1-2-3-4-------------------------------------------------------------4-3-2-1-0

Oh no, let's not make this battle of the bassplayers. It's not really the point of this thread, is it?

I find that I can play octaves (as in Dead Disco) fine. I can also play chords (Combat Baby, albeit a bit haphazardly.)

What about those other three players that I mentioned? Like I said, I don't sense any discomfort in my hands at all when I play (and I play for at least eight hours every day, unless I am not at home or out..)

And, thank you so much, peavyuser for contributing to this thread in an excellent way. Jerk.

Anyways, my point is, I seem to not be experiencing any limitations with the way that my hands are placed, and the minor ones (like that one chord in Combat baby on the E and A strings) I can work on. I find the way I play to be comfortable. Here's a question - and I don't mean to be rude by any stretch - if I had given you guys just the audio, would you have noticed a difference in my playing, not knowing how I looked when I played it?

I find that I can play octaves (as in Dead Disco) fine. I can also play chords (Combat Baby, albeit a bit haphazardly.)

What about those other three players that I mentioned? Like I said, I don't sense any discomfort in my hands at all when I play (and I play for at least eight hours every day, unless I am not at home or out..)

And, thank you so much, peavyuser for contributing to this thread in an excellent way. Jerk.

look at my edit buddy;) Trust me I might make an @$$hole comment in a thread, but i don't come in only for that.


oh hammer-on's help a lot too

Sorry about that Peavey. I can pull off that exercise that you posted slowly (because I've only just begun to play scales), but I can pull it off! :)

Sorry about that Peavey. I can pull off that exercise that you posted slowly (because I've only just begun to play scales), but I can pull it off! :)

||------------------|-----------------|-----------------|
||o-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|
||o-----2-----3-----|-4-----3-----2-2-|-----2-----3-----|
||--0-1---0-1---0-1-|---0-1---0-1-----|-0-1---0-1---0-1-|

|----------------|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|
|----------------|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|
|-4-----3-----2--|-----2-----3-----|-4-----3-----2-2-|-----2-----3-----|
|---0-1---1-0----|-0-1---0-1---0-1-|---0-1---0-1-----|-0-1---0-1---1-0-|


thats a great one, just start slow and go faster.

Also

G|-------------------------------|
D|-------------------------------|
A|-----------------------------5-|
E|-0-3-0-3-5-3-5-3-6-3-5-3-6-7---|

Mutediety above said alot of what I will say, but perhaps it's worth saying again and adding some so here goes:

I'm sure you can find lots of examples of people putting their thumb over the fingerboard. Entwistle as an example had huge hands so even with his thumb on top of the fingerboard he had plenty of reach. He also used axes with fairly thin necks which also would allow more reach and make thumb over neck a less egregious habit (yes I realize you are playing a Geddy Lee Jazz). But without trying to be outrageous I look at his left hand technique and though it worked for him I think most of us mere mortals would be crippled after a few years of playing like that.

I can only speak from my experience and over the years as I have changed my left hand technique to what I'm suggesting to you I have found that I have less pain, I can play longer without fatigue or cramping and I can play faster. Many musicians have chronic arm and hand pain because of poor technique, personally I have conquered much of mine but still have a ways to go. I can't tell you for sure whether any of the guys you mention suffer from pain or limitations because of their thumb over neck, but I have my suspicions.

Having said all that we're talking specifically about you and from what I see it is causing you problems. Sitting isn't really an issue, we all play sitting as much or more than standing. I tend to play cleaner sitting, but in most playing situations I do stand.

You didn't mention that you have CP before and I do imagine that that has something to do with the tension I see in your hands. But whether or not that is the case you mention pain from holding your hand in suggested positions on the neck. Is it sharp pain, is the pain there while doing it or after, is it in the muscles or does it feel like it is in the bones? A certain amount of pain is to be expected when stretching muscles in a way they are not used to. If it goes away quickly it is probably just discomfort. If it lingers or is sharp then that is a problem.

You opened this thread asking how to get better reach on the E and A strings and overall regardless of how Big Dollar guy a or b does it, what has been posted here has been found by most players to be the best way to get there and not develop tendinitis, Carpal Tunnel or other major problems down the line.

The best advice I can give you is that changing the technique you (we) use is a long and slow process and needs to be be approached slowly. I mean this literally, do all motions slowly, one of the paradoxes of practicing is that the slower you practice something the easier it gets to build speed and accuracy.

Anyways, my point is, I seem to not be experiencing any limitations with the way that my hands are placed, and the minor ones (like that one chord in Combat baby on the E and A strings) I can work on. I find the way I play to be comfortable. Here's a question - and I don't mean to be rude by any stretch - if I had given you guys just the audio, would you have noticed a difference in my playing, not knowing how I looked when I played it?

I just noticed this, must of gone up while I was writing the last post. Now Im confused, if there is no problem then why did you open this thread?

With the way that I play my basses, I have no discomfort in either of my hands, save for some fatigue, while playing something by Muse like Thoughts of a Dying Atheist, or Hysteria (see here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=OLlMvU7V2wQ) for a snippet, just audio though, tell me what you think.) That song (TOADA) is fatiguing on my right arm but it is getting a lot easier to play because I am building up muscle there. I do not think that the CP has anything to do with my hands as of it affects my legs mostly (if not all.) I may end up changing my technique to the one suggested here down the road, perhaps without even realizing it.

I have one question though. If I go out into public, playing the way that I do (visually, not by auditory senses) will people go "ooohhh...he sucks, look at his thumb and pinky!!" I should hope not, because they came to hear me, not see me right? But still...

I have one question though. If I go out into public, playing the way that I do (visually, not by auditory senses) will people go "ooohhh...he sucks, look at his thumb and pinky!!" I should hope not, because they came to hear me, not see me right? But still...

No, but you posted a query about it being a problem and people have responded to that.

In retrospect, it's not really hindering my playing that much at all. I can do it now, as a matter of fact, playing the same way I always have. That's not to say that this thread was pointless though, it does have a lot of relevant info for me and other people as well.


It did seem to come off though like everyone is telling me that I am certainly playing the instrument the wrong way. My way seems to work for me and other people as well, apparently.

No hurt feelings though?

it's not wrong, just that by not using one finger per fret you will reach a point in your playing where you won't be able to advance anymore because stretching a finger is definitely faster than moving your whole wrist. And you can stretch further if your thumb is somewhere in the middle of the neck instead of over the top because your fingers will be able to curl better and not unwantedly mute other strings. On the other hand, if you feel you have achieved all you have wanted to in your playing, then there's no point learning anything new rather just keep practicing what you can do already to improve it.

So all of the posts here really only refer to a better way of doing things and not that your technique or your way of playing is absolutely forbidden. I personally don't stick to any rule 100% of the time when i play but i do practice as many as i can so that i get more flexible to be able to adjust to any style of playing.

PS: moving your wrist is also important so don't totally unlearn it too!

it's not wrong, just that by not using one finger per fret you will reach a point in your playing where you won't be able to advance anymore because stretching a finger is definitely faster than moving your whole wrist. And you can stretch further if your thumb is somewhere in the middle of the neck instead of over the top because your fingers will be able to curl better and not unwantedly mute other strings.


So all of the posts here really only refer to a better way of doing things and not that your technique or your way of playing is absolutely forbidden. I personally don't stick to any rule 100% of the time when i play but i do practice as many as i can so that i get more flexible to be able to adjust to any style of playing.

PS: moving your wrist is also important so don't totally unlearn it too!

I would have to agree with this. That's why I am learning scales. My wrist as it is is very comfortable, and from plying the way I have for three years now, almost a straight three years, too (and I mean that, I play EVERY day.) I have not noticed carpal tunnel syndrome or any other pain in my fingers, or wrist. I will occasionally use more than my index finger (actually, the way I play is using both my index and bird flipper on the same fret, oddly. It's very comfy for me.) I do not only use those fingers though. I have caught myself using my pinky more frequently than ever this past month, actually. I am very happy and enjoy playing these instruments the way I do right now.

one of my favorite things to do when I am jamming to tunes (as an example. Can be obviously played from any root note on the bass):

-------------------

-2-------2---------

-----4-------------

-------------4-----


I like doing that, sorry that I suck at writing tabs, but that's something I enjoy. I also enjoy running up and down the board playing octaves. That's fun too :)


I'm gonna keep rockin' though and thats whats important right? :bassist::bassist:

Hey guys, I was wondering what I could do to improve my left hand technique.
OK, now I get it you didn't want the above, you wanted to hear how great you play and how you don't need to change anything. Great, you play just like Entwistle etc. Sorry I wasted my time!

You didn't waste your time. I will still work on the stuff that you posted, so what you talked about isn't irrelevant at all to me. It's very helpful. The only reason that I got mad (slightly) and came back with these guys like Chris, Geddy and John was because I thought that you guys wee saying something like "oh, yeah those guys can't play bass because their hands are not the way that we position ours." I realize now that that isn't what you were doing. In my mind, you weren't giving me advice on how to play it "better" by my standards, just a different approach. Is that a fair statement? I guess what I should have asked was if my technique was a bad one in comparison to Chris Geddy and John, as of those three guys right now are my inspirations for playing.

I'm sorry Marcury, I didn't mean to come off as "oh, I'm right and your wrong." Sorry about that.

I appreciate your answer. No one was saying those guys can't play. There is a difference between technical prowess, musicianship and technique. Entwistle for example was a genius and his technique worked for him. But that doesn't make it good technique for most of us. For better or worse there are those whose musical output is extraordinary in spite of their less than excellent (or correct) technique and those who have nothing to say even though they have superb technique.

What you have to keep in mind is that if you post a video and say I want help improving my technique, people are going to take that seriously and analyze what your doing accordingly. As I said before, Entwistle's technique worked for him, but there is a difference between emulating an influences technique (how he physically approaches the instrument) and his music (what notes he plays, his timing and rhythmic accents, his tone and overall aesthetic) are very different.

The point to developing better technique is to make playing easier and to avoid physical injury so that you can become the best player you possibly can be. There is some subjectivity to it but not a lot.

BTW had you asked the question as you state it above, I would still have answered pretty much the same way. I've spent years working to break out of habits like putting my thumb over the top of the neck and it has improved my playing immensely and also as stated before helped me end pain that was affecting my playing and enjoyment.

Bottom line do what works for you, but since your young and haven't been playing that long it's easier to make changes now.

Good luck with it and who knows maybe you'll become one of those "big dollar guys".

I appreciate your reply, a lot. Thanks Marcury.