When we see a great bassist, we no doubt marvel at their technique and musicianship. And in idolizing some of these people, and trying to follow their footsteps, I realized something else that these people are able to do; play with consistent quality. Perfection, if you will.

Lately, I've been devoting myself to studying the style and songs of a Japanese bassist named tetsu. Listening to songs carefully, not only for notes but subtle styling as well.

Then, at the dawn of the new year, some alcohol gave me the idea to actually record myself through a whole song (results here http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393011 , if anyone is interested). What an eye opener that was.

If you saw the video (don't have to to understand what im going to say), you'd see that i make quite a few mistakes. Excuses and kidding aside, I simply cant get it right. This was a song that I've played for hours, working out all the slides, rhythms and such. I've got it memorized, and at one point was on the verge of going nuts because it kept replaying in my head...

Forget making my style sound as good, I cant even play through the whole song without making a mistake. And we're back to my first idea: perfection. How do you attain it?

This isn't a hard song... its no repeated eights on the root not kinda thing, but its not technically challenging. I've practiced it a whole lot, but the thing that gets me is there there seems to be a point where you can't improve. Its easy to play each individual part, but the whole thing is kinda stuck in an almost complete status.

So how do you push past a point that feels much like a wall? I'd like to say that I've been only playing for 2 years, but i refuse to believe that talent ferments like a friggin wine. Sure, practice makes perfect, but now we see the irony in that, no? Well, at least in the short run.

Here's what i think. Obviously, I've improved loads since i first started. And in recognizing that, I've come to the conclusion that it is experience with the instrument, rather than simple practice on a piece, that helps us get closer to perfection.


So now that my rant is over, what are your ideas?

I have serious perfectionist tendencies, which I have to overcome in order to enjoy playing music.
One of the things I have to remind myself is that music is about expression, not perfection. That's my path, your path may be different.

One of the most influential things I've ever heard (and it was from John McLaughlin, a guy who is a pretty technically impressive player) was a quote to the effect that he's not impressed when he sees someone play and they don't make any mistakes.
Essentially, he said, if you don't don't make mistakes you're not expressing yourself, you're just playing things you've practiced over and over again. The very act of stretching yourself beyond what you've already done ensures that you will make some mistakes.

That was huge for me - to strive to reach for new things, and express what I'm currently feeling, rather than try to play perfectly.

Just a thought...

I dont want to high jack your thread but i cant belive how this hits me tonight ...heres why. I just joined a giging country band good guys and players. I have had about a month or less to learn 50 songs for this weekends gig. I have had 1 tryout with the whole band and after tonight 2 -1 hour go thrus on a few picked songs with the second guitarist and drummer not the whole band. The second guitarist and i have about 14 hours of kitchen table walk thrus of the songs intros etc thru semi acoustic playing.I have been woodshedding to their live CD (bands) and the recording artist recorded cds since i was taken on night after night...im about to go crazy.

tonight we get together for the 2nd and last go thru for an hour and half or so before this weekends gig and i suked :(
i blew one songs part i knew well and missed a few small parts in others. Some songs i did good on but overall i felt like i just started playing this and i know it well...what gives?

Granted i was tired from a long work day ....went stright to it from work and its the first time in weeks i have played with a drummer. But like you what gives? You work and work practice and practice for what to make mistakes still. This is my 3rd band i did good in those? Countrys not tuff(wrong) you need be be clean and on the spot playing wise...im working my butt off and Saturdays comin quick. Sorry to high jack but i saw this late tonight after i got in and man it hits home...what can you guys tell us?

Hey Clowndeacon, I am really sorry i came on here late last night and hi-jacked your thread with my rant. Although it was related and i feel like you it was wrong...I am sorry. I sould of posted myself i guess or practiced more....if i could. :smug:

I feel ya buddy. Its frustrating but how do you know that the original artists arnt making mistakes all the time. My favorite band is DreamTheater and I've seen them make somr right gaffs playing live.
Still, it just seems that how ever much i practice I can never getthings right all the time. Thing its something we will just have to accept.

disclaimer: opinions in this post.


I find that in the majority of cases, learning how to perfect music is a waste of time when compared to developing musicianship skills that will help you:

- predict what you're going to play next
- play convincing improv. you get lost
- fix a mistake when you do make one


I'm sure lots of people would disagree with me and that's fine. I know this doesn't hold true for all situations (ex. in classical music) but if you are playing music that doesn't require you to play everything to a t (a good percentage of music doesn't) then you'll be fine with this philosophy.

np at all bully.. i asked for thoughts and ideas, and you gave yours

i'm in two minds about this... I don't think worrying about mistakes is entirely healthy, and I don't mind hearing (or making) a few mistakes in an otherwise fantastic performance (unless it's a total train wreck)... but my first few years involved an obsessive amount of work to be able to play as well as possible, and I like hearing very difficult music executed inhumanly well... so I have both sides... punk rock perfectionism

your flaws are what make you human and you shouldn't beat yourself up for being human... do your very best and that's all you can do... I know I sound like someone's encouraging mother, but I believe most musician's energies would be better spent developing playing character than technical perfection... but again, I love character AND perfection in equal parts the most

I've been transcribing some Zappa recently, and his 1988 band is generally regarded as one of the most accomplished groups of musicians ever assembled... and guess what? they made mistakes! the tempo drifts here and there, there are bum notes here and there.. but it doesn't stop the music being glorious one tiny bit...

so, celebrate your humanity, mistakes and all... and MAKE SOME MUSIC!

When we see a great bassist, we no doubt marvel at their technique and musicianship. And in idolizing some of these people, and trying to follow their footsteps, I realized something else that these people are able to do; play with consistent quality. Perfection, if you will.

Lately, I've been devoting myself to studying the style and songs of a Japanese bassist named tetsu. Listening to songs carefully, not only for notes but subtle styling as well.

Then, at the dawn of the new year, some alcohol gave me the idea to actually record myself through a whole song (results here http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393011 , if anyone is interested). What an eye opener that was.

If you saw the video (don't have to to understand what im going to say), you'd see that i make quite a few mistakes. Excuses and kidding aside, I simply cant get it right. This was a song that I've played for hours, working out all the slides, rhythms and such. I've got it memorized, and at one point was on the verge of going nuts because it kept replaying in my head...

Forget making my style sound as good, I cant even play through the whole song without making a mistake. And we're back to my first idea: perfection. How do you attain it?

This isn't a hard song... its no repeated eights on the root not kinda thing, but its not technically challenging. I've practiced it a whole lot, but the thing that gets me is there there seems to be a point where you can't improve. Its easy to play each individual part, but the whole thing is kinda stuck in an almost complete status.

So how do you push past a point that feels much like a wall? I'd like to say that I've been only playing for 2 years, but i refuse to believe that talent ferments like a friggin wine. Sure, practice makes perfect, but now we see the irony in that, no? Well, at least in the short run.

Here's what i think. Obviously, I've improved loads since i first started. And in recognizing that, I've come to the conclusion that it is experience with the instrument, rather than simple practice on a piece, that helps us get closer to perfection.


So now that my rant is over, what are your ideas?

I am no perfectionist and its a good thing I am not cause I screw up all the time ;) I do know what you mean though. Maybe you have been spending too much time on that one tune though. When I get really annoyed at a song I take a break and learn some more. Might not play the problem one again for more than a week. Sometimes though when I go back to it, I nail it first time and cant understand why it was so hard.

Its like when you lose something, you look for agaes then just when you give up looking, there it is staring you in the face.

disclaimer: opinions in this post.


I find that in the majority of cases, learning how to perfect music is a waste of time when compared to developing musicianship skills that will help you:

- predict what you're going to play next
- play convincing improv. you get lost
- fix a mistake when you do make one


I'm sure lots of people would disagree with me and that's fine. I know this doesn't hold true for all situations (ex. in classical music) but if you are playing music that doesn't require you to play everything to a t (a good percentage of music doesn't) then you'll be fine with this philosophy.

I agree with you on this 100%. I had these skills when playing Rock music and even power blues...why? I had experience playing the music and time and practice with my band and bandmates. I could predict what to play way before i had to, could improv really with out thinking and get out if i got lost offen with taste :smug: And fix mistakes if their were any. Now im in the cleanest form of music i have ever played and although my country band rocks it up country is very clean on the spot and solid playing...no distortion or sustain or going off on long solos. You stick to the roots stomp em out clean ,neat,next. I guess im not used to that and i choked a bit. I need to relaxe and just do it. Thanks for the help thou these posts are helping me and my confidence.

np at all bully.. i asked for thoughts and ideas, and you gave yours

Thanks...i checked out your vid it was tasty playing...nice dancing too :D

The thing to ask is how much real practice have you done. Putting time in with the instrument in your hand helps, but serious focused practice is what I'll talking about. What is the old saying perfect playing requires perfect practice. Playing things slow enough to play them perfectly speed develops on its own. Listening and analyzing your practice so you know what to focus on. Not just trying to jam to a CD or just shredding away that isn't practice and can actually slow your progress. Work on tune at tempo you can play them perfectly and once you can play it perfectly then work on getting up to tempo. In the long run that is the faster process to reach a goal.

I've posted this in the past so I won't go into the long explanation, but basically your brain remember everything you do. For example trying to learn a scale the brain remember the times you played it wrong as well as the time you played it right. The brain just knows you called this scale X and all the times you played scale X. When you go back later to play scale X its a gamble on whether you will get the good version or the bad. So for every time you play something wrong, you need to play it right a 100 time more to reduce the chance of the mistake showing up. So slow perfect practice leads to perfect playing. A couple hours of focused practice is more beneficial than hours of just jamming and shredding. So find out more about your fave bass players practice routine along with who he listened to that will get you where you want to be.

The thing to ask is how much real practice have you done. Putting time in with the instrument in your hand helps, but serious focused practice is what I'll talking about. What is the old saying perfect playing requires perfect practice. Playing things slow enough to play them perfectly speed develops on its own. Listening and analyzing your practice so you know what to focus on. Not just trying to jam to a CD or just shredding away that isn't practice and can actually slow your progress. Work on tune at tempo you can play them perfectly and once you can play it perfectly then work on getting up to tempo. In the long run that is the faster process to reach a goal.

ah, but theres the thing. i am quite capable of playing any part of the song (im just using this song as an example, this quest for perfect no doubt applies anywhere). for lack of a better anology, its like math for me. Individual components are easy and quite within reach, but when you get a bunch of them put together, say, a test, then getting everything right is quite a stretch.

and to whoever suggested that i give the song a rest, its a good idea :) and yeah, i have moved onto other pieces already. it funny how it works, because you're right. you revisit old songs with a more developed skill and experience, and it just brings your performance to a whole new light, and you even understand your mistakes a lot more as well (this was YYZ for me :P)

Try breaking down each part individualy then put it all together. Start off slow and build the tempo up... Instead of dancing around sit down and focus on the song and then once u can play it perfect then u dance around.

My gig went better than i thought :D i know i am hard on myself but dang i want to play almost perfect full knowing its not going to happen. I got ahead on a couple of tunes since the band was slower than i heard them on recordings doing the song and rocked thru others. A few slow songs were a bit tuff since slow isnt my thing but overall the band was pleased as myself. I would give me a B- for having to know 50 songs in a month...we played 3/4 of them last night.

The crowd was great good dancin ...pretty women. My wife took pics but the camera was full so none were saved:mad: Practice does make nearly perfect...but not perfect nobody is even the pro's. Thanks for the advice.

You mean Tetsu , the leader of L'Arc en Ciel ??

Edit : Ok , I checked out your other post , so I guess I was right . Cool , another J-rock head in the forums . Nice to meet you dude .

Anyways , gonna give you some advice here . The real trick to perfection , according to me....is not doing it . Seriously . Learn it.....get away from it , come back and play it . It's like kinda like painting , or doing commercial artwork . There are some restrictions which your mind just cant get over at a certain point of indulgence into that piece of work . If you spent 3 hours in something , your mind automatically homes in on fixing a certain location , and then even when your done , you try and take in the whole piece , but it really doesnt work that way , because your mental buffer isnt empty yet . In such a scenario I find sleep most usefull . Thats why I always do transcribing of covers during the night . That way , as soon as I'm done , I sleep . Next morning I get up , my mind automatically finds out parts which I am already adept at , and parts where I'm screwing up , and I automatically adjust to fixing the parts I am not good at , and so on , rinse and repeat , and within a week I can play that song with my eyes closed . Thats why rather than try learning a song a day , you should plan out songs you want to add to your cover archive , and do them with the expectancy of really getting them 5-6 days down the line .

Anyways , thats all I have to say for now . Tetsu rocks btw . Drivers High still has one of the best Classic rock style melodic basslines I've ever seen .

And for someone whose been doing it just for 2 years , thats a mighty fine bass :P .

congratulations bully :)

and magnus, that makes a lot of sense!

and as for the bass, thanks :P its an ibanez SRX705, and i love it. got it a year after i got my first, which is just a low-level yamaha 4-string. so happens that i found playing bass a great hobby, so i decided to get a better bass, which is the 5er you see... i defretted the old one, and with these two i'm not going to be laying my hands on a new bass for at least few more years, if not a decade.

Sweet . My current is Ibanez GSR 390 , beginners bass . Coincidentally I plan to move upto a Yamaha a year or so from now . A BB414 is what I'm targetting .