Here's a question that continues to bug me. I've never really heard a satisfying answer. Maybe I don't articulate it well or maybe I've got it in the wrong perspective. But I'll give it a try here.

Let's say you're playing a tune in a particular key. We'll use 'C' to make it easy. The guitarist is playing his chords and you're playing similar notes on the bass.
He plays a 'C' chord (CEG) - no problem, you play some combination of the chord notes.
He goes to a 'D' chord (DF#A) but --
first question: would he do this?
We're in the key of C. F# isn't in the key of C. Would he play an F#?
Or would he (probably) use a Dm chord (DFA)?

If the answer is that he will probably use the Dm chord, what is the use of knowing the key? It doesn't really tell you what notes you can use.

(Does this question even make sense?)

Keys, in modern music - especially jazz, are fluid. You are far more concerned with the "key of the moment". Function of the chords (functional harmony) is where you need to study.

Keys, in modern music - especially jazz, are fluid. You are far more concerned with the "key of the moment". Function of the chords (functional harmony) is where you need to study.

Can you be a little more specific... am I correct in assuming you're talking about having chords that imply key changes and learning how to connect the key changes? i.e. Cmaj to Dmaj changing from the key of C major to D major?

I posted something smiler to this and am still waiting on an answer. I think the answer is to just stick it out and try it and see what sounds best during practice then make a mental note. :hmm:

Lets take a classic rock progression, 1-4-5 out of Gmaj, that would be Gmaj, Cmaj and Dmaj
Even though your playing there different chords the key of the song would still be Gmaj. Then lets say you want to drop a key change in that goes to Amaj but keep the same 1-4-5 progression, you walk up to A and then you would be playing Amaj, Dmaj, and Emaj .
Then your key would be Amaj.

If the answer is that he will probably use the Dm chord, what is the use of knowing the key? It doesn't really tell you what notes you can use.

(Does this question even make sense?)


Perhaps you can clify some more. If I understand your question, the Dm chord should be played.

In the key of C the the I IV and V chords are major, the ii iii and vi are minor and the vii* is a minor with a dimished fifth.

If you want to stay in the key of C, then Dm should be the ii chord. If you are moving around than whatever sounds good is what is right :)

Let's say you're playing a tune in a particular key. We'll use 'C' to make it easy. The guitarist is playing his chords and you're playing similar notes on the bass.
He plays a 'C' chord (CEG) - no problem, you play some combination of the chord notes.
He goes to a 'D' chord (DF#A) but --
first question: would he do this?
We're in the key of C. F# isn't in the key of C. Would he play an F#?

Sure. That's a secondary dominant. The idea is that almost every chord within a scale may work as a dominant for another one. At that point, a "transitory modulation" occurs, and a new temporary key center takes place. The requirements for a chord to work as a dominant are being a major chord and having a minor seventh from the root (and removing the root results in a diminished chord, which also works as a dominant). Such chord has a tritone, which is the interval that creates tension (and subsequent release). In C major, we can talk about these cases:

I7 = C-E-G-Bb = Dominant of IV (F)

II7 = D-F#-A-C = Dominant of V (G - also known as double dominant)

III7 = E-G#-B-D = Dominant of vi (Am)

VI7 = A-C#-E-G = Dominant of ii (Dm)

VII7 = B-D#-F#-A = Dominant of iii (Em)

Of course, a chain of secondary dominants may happen: E7 to A7 to D7 to G7 to C (In C major). So, as you can see, the "natural" chords from the scale must be altered to meet that requirement.

There are many well-known tunes that can be used as examples. "Jingle Bells" has a II7 chord that resolves to V7:

Oh, jingle bells, jingle bells
Jingle all the way
Oh, what fun it is to ride
In a one horse open sleigh

"Only You (And You Alone)" has a III7 chord that resolves to vi:

Only you can make this world seem right
Only you can make the darkness bright

And lots more. Hope this helps. :)

You're right. Knowing the key doesn't always tell you what notes you can use. In traditional harmony, yes, the above is true, with 1, 4 and 5 being major, 2, 4, 6 being minor etc. But there are numerous examples of where that doesn't hold. Off the top of my head is the Dead's 'Casey Jones'. The "trouble ahead, lady in red section" is Cmaj, Dmaj, F, G. If you were playing on that, yes, you would play F# on the second chord, but you'd better resolve it quick! That song in general is pretty straightforward in C major.

It's not so much that you have to know what key the song is in. But you do have to know the chord changes. Another top-of-the head example is Joe Cocker's version of "With a Little Help From My Friends." The song is in A major, but the chorus goes "Gmaj, Dmaj, Amaj, Amaj". Thats bVII, IV, I, I, technically. Despite the A major key, I can't find a single place where I would play the note G#.

It's all in the changes. Does that help?

A D Major chord in the key of C (if you are still in the key of C) is a Secondary Dominant chord. It's the V/V ("five of five") chord.

If I remember correctly, a V/V chord functions as a ii chord in functional harmony (II#4 in roman numeral analysis). It would resolve nicely to a G chord (the Dominant chord in the key of C). The F# wants to resolve up to a G.

This is hurting my head. I haven't thought about this sorta' stuff for some time. I hope I still have it all straight.

It depends on what style of music we're talking about. Music doesn't have to follow the "rules". I had to pay attention to A Lot of rules back in college when we were doing stylistic compositions (Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern...). It was especially a big deal when we were doing Baroque part-writing (4 part harmony). All that voice leading and harmonic analysis... "Don't double the leading tone!" Ahhh, those where the days.

Joe

Pacman's post is the answer where you are getting confused is you not factoring in songs change keys all the time. That's part of the reason Rockers use power chords (which really aren't chords) because without 3rd they avoid key and the harmonized scale related to key. There is even atonal music like 20th century classical and free jazz that has no key.


So your example of Cmaj going to Dmaj changing keys or different key. If in key of C and you move to Dmaj you could be....

Moving to key of Dmaj
Could be a modal tune and you're in C Lydian.
Maybe not in key of C, but in G and its a IV->V

With just two chords hard to say what's really going on, dominant chords are the best indication of key. If no dominants you have to start looking ahead look at the root movements and start seeing if the collective chords appear to be in a particular key. But it on stage or thrown a new tune don't worry about key and use chord tones.

Main thing is remember songs change key all the time. Rock tunes don't change key a lot compared to other styles of music, rock also use power chords to avoid key issues. Some Jazz and standard can be analyzed as changing keys every bar or two. Hopefully that clears this up more for you.

Oh man! I just read back a few posts and Alvaro beat me to it. You're the man Alvaro. Great post!

Joe

Yea alvaro, really helpful post.

docbop may be right that the song may be in the key of G

Short answer to the question is: The chord that should be played, Dmaj or Dmin, will depend on what sounds best for the context of the song.

The problem with the basic question is that you have tried, as I have seen many people try, to give music theory a power it does not deserve, and was never intended, to have. Music theory was never meant as a set of rules, or even a set of loose guidelines, as to what you can, or should, play in any given musical situation. Music theory is just a way to communicate what has has already been played, or what you would like to play, between two or more musicians.

In this example, if the guitar player says, "The song is in C and my chord progression is C D G and A, all major chords with two beats per chord." Well, you already know that D and A chords are, technically, out of key for C so do you just not play anything because the song is "breaking the law"?

Of course not, you use your ears and your experience to come up with a bass line. And when you are finished, you might say, "I mainly pulled notes from the G Mixolydian scale and avoided the chords' thirds to make my bass line." (You might do something completely different; I just pulled that out of my ass for this example.) Again, this would just be a way of describing what you are playing to another musician--as long as it sounds good to the both of you, it is good--regardless of the names used.

One example I use with my students is: If I write down the word "bass", am I talking about the instrument we all know and love, or am I talking about my last fishing trip? The answer, of course, is: it depends on the context. That answer, it turns out, is the exact same answer for how you describe something with music theory--it depends on the context. This won't change what notes get played or whether they sound good together, it just changes how we talk about them.

Perhaps you can clify some more. If I understand your question, the Dm chord should be played.

Yes, I misphrased the question. To stay within the key of C notes, one would play a Dm. I meant it the other way around -- that is, if he played a Dmaj chord.

You guys have been very helpful but let me ask one more question. For a tune in the key of C, what would typically be played for a D chord? Dmaj or Dm? ...or is there no typical answer?

Let me make that last question a little more specific.

For a typical rock/blues tune in the key of C, what would typically be played for a D chord? Dmaj or Dm? ...or is there no typical answer?

Hey Dudes,

If the song you and the guitarist are playing has a pre arranged melody & harmony and is definitley rooted, in its core, in the key of C, you should then know whether or not the melody calls for a modulation, at some point in the song, into a key (Say The Key Of G or D) containing the F# note. If this modulation is called up then the DF#A could be an acceptable chord/ triad. If, however, it is pre arranged that the song remains in they key of C throughout, then the Dmin with the F note (DFA) would be the natural choice of chord with a D root. I'm not factoring in improvisation here at all I think it is probably better to learn the structure of a piece of music thoroughly as a group before begining to improvise arround the changes.

C-Ya!

Raf

Let me make that last question a little more specific.

For a typical rock/blues tune in the key of C, what would typically be played for a D chord? Dmaj or Dm? ...or is there no typical answer?

Rock/Blues...

You can play whatever you want. Serve the song. You don't have to analyze what you're doing. If it sounds good, do it.

What many of us were trying to do with the theory is explain why a D major chord might be played in the context of C major. As you can see, there are several reasons for it. The theory is a way to explain what's happening. As stated in another post, the theory doesn't and shouldn't dictate how the music is created.

When it comes down to it; especially in popular music, do what sounds good.

Joe

Short answer to the question is: The chord that should be played, Dmaj or Dmin, will depend on what sounds best for the context of the song.

The problem with the basic question is that you have tried, as I have seen many people try, to give music theory a power it does not deserve, and was never intended, to have. Music theory was never meant as a set of rules, or even a set of loose guidelines, as to what you can, or should, play in any given musical situation. Music theory is just a way to communicate what has has already been played, or what you would like to play, between two or more musicians.

In this example, if the guitar player says, "The song is in C and my chord progression is C D G and A, all major chords with two beats per chord." Well, you already know that D and A chords are, technically, out of key for C so do you just not play anything because the song is "breaking the law"?

Of course not, you use your ears and your experience to come up with a bass line. And when you are finished, you might say, "I mainly pulled notes from the G Mixolydian scale and avoided the chords' thirds to make my bass line." (You might do something completely different; I just pulled that out of my ass for this example.) Again, this would just be a way of describing what you are playing to another musician--as long as it sounds good to the both of you, it is good--regardless of the names used.

One example I use with my students is: If I write down the word "bass", am I talking about the instrument we all know and love, or am I talking about my last fishing trip? The answer, of course, is: it depends on the context. That answer, it turns out, is the exact same answer for how you describe something with music theory--it depends on the context. This won't change what notes get played or whether they sound good together, it just changes how we talk about them.

+1

I think people can get too caught up in music theory and forget to use their ears. Theory is a great way to give you a direction but it's more about what sounds best to you; not rules. Because you've got some basic theory under your belt, you know you can try a few different options and, depending on the context in which the Dmaj chord is used, you'll know doubt be able to find what sounds best to you after trying those various options.

Yes, I misphrased the question. To stay within the key of C notes, one would play a Dm. I meant it the other way around -- that is, if he played a Dmaj chord.

You guys have been very helpful but let me ask one more question. For a tune in the key of C, what would typically be played for a D chord? Dmaj or Dm? ...or is there no typical answer?
In traditional 18th century harmony, the last chord you play should be the key of the song. This isn't the 18th century, and I can only assume you're playing rock.

If you're really in the key of C, D minor is the chord available for D. If your guitar player plays a D major, you're not really in C anymore. That is, if you're in the traditional rules of harmony. What you should be looking for are the leading tones, which are the half-steps in whatever music you're playing. Listen to what the vocalist is doing. Where is there a half-step in his or her line? That's going to give you a much better clue to the key of the song. Then again, the key could shift to allow convenient tonality to take place. But the situation you're describing sounds like you're really in G but centering in the C major chord, which would mean you're in another mode. I last studied theory 15 years ago and I've forgotten it and I don't really care anymore, but there are plenty of modes that are available that don't sound like major keys.

If you're asking what notes you can play, obviously you should not play an F natural against a D major chord. Unless you're doing something experimentally noisy, of course. But rather than try to follow key patterns you should be listening to what works for you. In a rock band people tend not to write down or chart out what they're doing.

For example, listen to Tenacious D's "Tribute." The cue where the drums and electric guitars come in starts on a D major, and immediately moves to an F major, then a C major, then a G major. You could be in any one of three keys with as few cues as are given, but the simplest and most effective thing to do on bass is simply follow the root and groove with it. The important thing is it works musically despite the fact that it breaks theory rules. Nobody stops dead at that phrase and goes "Ick, that's not musical anymore." If you wanted to have fun with that phrase, you could play a descending run of F# to F natural to E to D and it would all "work" but it would alter the whole feel of the progression.

Something important to remember, also, is that traditional harmony was devised based on what people like Bach and Handel and Beethoven and Mozart were playing. It's not really "theory." It's just a way of encoding what was musically acceptable at the time. Music has moved so far beyond those rules that a lot of it is simply not relevant anymore. Tritones and shifting keys and no-key songs are more common than not.

Here's a question that continues to bug me. I've never really heard a satisfying answer. Maybe I don't articulate it well or maybe I've got it in the wrong perspective. But I'll give it a try here.

Let's say you're playing a tune in a particular key. We'll use 'C' to make it easy. The guitarist is playing his chords and you're playing similar notes on the bass.
He plays a 'C' chord (CEG) - no problem, you play some combination of the chord notes.
He goes to a 'D' chord (DF#A) but --
first question: would he do this?
We're in the key of C. F# isn't in the key of C. Would he play an F#?
Or would he (probably) use a Dm chord (DFA)?

If the answer is that he will probably use the Dm chord, what is the use of knowing the key? It doesn't really tell you what notes you can use.

(Does this question even make sense?)

I think you have it back to front. dmin is the chord that "fits" the key of C Major since it is the relative dorian tertian triad. If DMaj is played then it is either an alteration or the key is not C Major. Diatonically speaking the key will be G Major in that case, though there are many possibilities for that combination of chords and associated scales.

The concept of "key" goes beyond which notes are correct for a particular scale context though. Personally I look at key as a concept that mainly puts diatonic function into a framework. This will deal with elements like the dominant, leading tone and tonal centre. In other words key is there as a way of defining what we percieve as the tonal hierarchy of a series of tones is. You can stick by this framework more or less depending on what you are doing compositionally and contextually.

If you're asking what notes you can play, obviously you should not play an F natural against a D major chord. Unless you're doing something experimentally noisy, of course.

Not necessarily. Blues-based music heavily relies on a practice known as broken third, which consists of playing minor melodies over major chords. What really happens there is that, since the three chords typically used in a blues chord progression are all dominant (C7 - F7 - G7 for a blues in C) it makes very easy to superimpose almost whatever you like over them because dominant harmonies are very flexible and friendly (the natural overtones succession has to do with that). So, what really happens in a "major" tune with a "minor" melody is a dominant seventh chord with an augmented ninth added. For the D Major example, it would be a D - F# - A - C - E# being the E sharp the augmented ninth of the chord, which sounds the same as the minor third (F natural).

A simple and very well known example among so many would be "Jailhouse Rock". If you play it in D Major, the singer must hit an F natural (technically an E sharp) every time the D Major chord is being played. A couple of years ago someone (from these latitudes) recorded a medley of classic rock and roll tunes and sung all the songs with a "major" character, which absolutely kills them (and made me want to kill whoever did that).

#4 intervals (D F# A in key of C) aren't uncommon in jazz and blues [C blues scale = C Eb F F#(or Gb) G Bb

A little less common in rock, but you'll find it there too.

I just found something in David Overthrow's "Beginning Electric Bass" book that directly addresses my question.

First, he points out that using the notes of the key to make chords creates diatonic harmony.

Later, he points out that, "when playing the blues, an important principle of diatonic harmony is tossed out the window." That's exactly what I was seeing but finding counterintuitive. That's what was bugging me. That's just the way it is. Now I understand.

Thanks for your help, everybody. And thanks David O., for a good book.

Not necessarily. Blues-based music heavily relies on a practice known as broken third, which consists of playing minor melodies over major chords. What really happens there is that, since the three chords typically used in a blues chord progression are all dominant (C7 - F7 - G7 for a blues in C) it makes very easy to superimpose almost whatever you like over them because dominant harmonies are very flexible and friendly (the natural overtones succession has to do with that). So, what really happens in a "major" tune with a "minor" melody is a dominant seventh chord with an augmented ninth added. For the D Major example, it would be a D - F# - A - C - E# being the E sharp the augmented ninth of the chord, which sounds the same as the minor third (F natural).

A simple and very well known example among so many would be "Jailhouse Rock". If you play it in D Major, the singer must hit an F natural (technically an E sharp) every time the D Major chord is being played. A couple of years ago someone (from these latitudes) recorded a medley of classic rock and roll tunes and sung all the songs with a "major" character, which absolutely kills them (and made me want to kill whoever did that).

From a bass player's perspective, playing an F natural against a D major chord in rock won't work. I mean, you can try it, but you would probably be playing a King Crimson song.