I've been going through Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book to get a different perspective from Jim Grantham's Jazzmaster Cookbook (which is used at my university). I noticed that each one has a very different approach to minor key harmony:

Jazzmaster Cookbook seems to look at minor harmony from an aeolian/harmonic minor perspective, suggesting using locrian and mixob9b13 scales for ii V's respectively.

Levine seems to approach it from a melodic minor standpoint suggesting Locrian #2 (or natural 2, whatever you call it) and altered dominant scales for the ii V progressions.

Which method do you find you use more often and why? I'm going to try to study both ways of looking at minor harmony, but I wonder if one is more applicable in typical situations.

For instance, looking at a tune like Stella By Starlight, with the first ii V progression: E-7b5 | A7b9 |
would you use E locrian, A mixob9b13
OR
would you use E locrian #2, A altered dominant (or diminished whole-tone if you prefer to call it)

Also, if this resolved to the i (D-7) would you tend to use aeolian or melodic minor over it?

So far, my initial impressions (only of ii V i's so far) are that melodic minor harmony sounds a little more spicy but also more nebulous, with less clear direction and resolution to the i. What do you think?

Just curious for your thoughts - thanks in advance!

IMO what you talking about are default scale choices if giving minor II-V-I. I would lean toward the Levine suggestions as my defaults. I would also default to Dorian on the minor I chord. Now all this depends on the melody so you have to keep your ear open.

In a minor II-V-I you need to make the half diminish sound of the II chord. The V I was taught to treat as a fully altered dominant so can create lots of tension. Then default for me on the one would be Dorian because Aeolian is too plain sounding. So any scale that has those colors are possible scale. Again depending on the melody.

IMO what you talking about are default scale choices if giving minor II-V-I. I would lean toward the Levine suggestions as my defaults. I would also default to Dorian on the minor I chord. Now all this depends on the melody so you have to keep your ear open.

In a minor II-V-I you need to make the half diminish sound of the II chord. The V I was taught to treat as a fully altered dominant so can create lots of tension. Then default for me on the one would be Dorian because Aeolian is too plain sounding. So any scale that has those colors are possible scale. Again depending on the melody.


Thanks! I've been playing around with these some more and I seem to be gravitating a bit toward the Levine approach as well. I should mention that I was thinking of this theory more in terms of soloing than in terms of playing a supporting bass line. Walking over these minor ii V's, I tend to not focus so much on the available tensions and like you said, try to listen to the melody for guidance.

I've been going through Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book to get a different perspective from Jim Grantham's Jazzmaster Cookbook (which is used at my university). I noticed that each one has a very different approach to minor key harmony:

Jazzmaster Cookbook seems to look at minor harmony from an aeolian/harmonic minor perspective, suggesting using locrian and mixob9b13 scales for ii V's respectively.

Levine seems to approach it from a melodic minor standpoint suggesting Locrian #2 (or natural 2, whatever you call it) and altered dominant scales for the ii V progressions.

Which method do you find you use more often and why? I'm going to try to study both ways of looking at minor harmony, but I wonder if one is more applicable in typical situations.

For instance, looking at a tune like Stella By Starlight, with the first ii V progression: E-7b5 | A7b9 |
would you use E locrian, A mixob9b13
OR
would you use E locrian #2, A altered dominant (or diminished whole-tone if you prefer to call it)

Also, if this resolved to the i (D-7) would you tend to use aeolian or melodic minor over it?

So far, my initial impressions (only of ii V i's so far) are that melodic minor harmony sounds a little more spicy but also more nebulous, with less clear direction and resolution to the i. What do you think?

Just curious for your thoughts - thanks in advance!

It is important to know that minor keys are based on the aeolian/harmonic minor scales.

A real to ii-v in minor is usually based on the ii and v of the minor harmonic scale ( Emin7(b5)- A7(b9)- Dmin . So, those are the modes of the D minor harmonic scale.

The minor melodic scale is not different enough from the major scale to define a minor key. So it is use to add different colors on specific chords by using its modes. The use of the locrian #2 as an example is a matter of choice or taste of color in certain context like when the min7(b5) resolve to a major chord instead of a minor chord .

The modes of the melodic minor scale have nothing to do with the relationship of a key. They are use to fit certain chords like the locrian #2, the alterded chord, the dominant lydian and the sus4 (b9).

I hope this makes sense to you and will help,

SB

The minor melodic scale is not different enough from the major scale to define a minor key. So it is use to add different colors on specific chords by using its modes. The use of the locrian #2 as an example is a matter of choice or taste of color in certain context like when the min7(b5) resolve to a major chord instead of a minor chord .

Melodic minor not different enough to define a minor key? Oh boy, tell that to John Coltrane.

Melodic minor not different enough to define a minor key? Oh boy, tell that to John Coltrane.

What I mean by that is the fact that there is only the minor third that is different between those two scales and you cannot build a min7(b5) on the second degree like you do with the minor harmonic.

Don't forget that the caracteristic of a minor key is the flat fifth of the second degree that becomes the flat nine of the dominant. That note is the flat sixth of the harmonic which gives it the minor tonality color.

I'm very aware that the melodic minor scale is probably the most useful scale in improvisation but not as a functional tool in harmony except for the first degree when you have a min6 or minMaj7 as a first degree. The other modes have nothing to do with their respective function in the key.

I hope this will clarify my point of view :-)

SB

What I mean by that is the fact that there is only the minor third that is different between those two scales and you cannot build a min7(b5) on the second degree like you do with the minor harmonic.


Well, what defines a chord as major or minor? It's the third, and it doesn't really matter what else you have on top or around it, if there is a minor third, you're going to hear it as a minor tonality.

I see your point though, you're thinking more in terms of chord construction rather than in linear application. Harmonic minor is the basis of the tonic-dominant relationship in a minor key, yeah, but melodic minor has its uses also. A common one is the VI-7(b5) chord, found in tunes like Lullaby of Birdland and a lot of bluesy sorts of tunes. The tonic I-6 or I-(maj7) will almost always imply a melodic minor and not a dorian or harmonic (although harmonic works decently over the latter, just not as well). You'll also sometimes find chords like the IV7(#11) (Beautiful Love) and ii-7 to V7 without the b5 and b9 (Shadow of your Smile).

For instance, looking at a tune like Stella By Starlight, with the first ii V progression: E-7b5 | A7b9 |
would you use E locrian, A mixob9b13
OR
would you use E locrian #2, A altered dominant (or diminished whole-tone if you prefer to call it)

Also, if this resolved to the i (D-7) would you tend to use aeolian or melodic minor over it?

So far, my initial impressions (only of ii V i's so far) are that melodic minor harmony sounds a little more spicy but also more nebulous, with less clear direction and resolution to the i. What do you think?

Just curious for your thoughts - thanks in advance!

Both ways are good! if you play a walking bass the minor harmonic or the aeolien mode is a good way to define harmony.
If you solo you have different choices depending on the color you want:really inside or adding tension.

In a solo you have three choices in any point: you can end a line in any specific point or start a line or passing thru.So, each one have a different impact. If you stop at the beginning of a minor ii-v you can finish your idea with the scale you just played or resolve it or if you start your line then you might introduce what is coming up in the next bar as far as color depending on what the next chord is. At the beginning of Stella the ii-v doesn't resolve but the melody suggest a very dark sound because of the chord yet a very diatonic sound too based on the scale of Bb major. So by playing a locrian #2 by introducing the F# is a very different color then the melody suggested. It is a matter of choice and how you hear it.

here are some examples of a bass lines on the ii-v in d minor:

E-D-C-Bb | A-G-F-E | D based on aeolien
E-D-C#-Bb | A-G-F-E | D based on d min harmonic
E-D-C-Bb | A-G-F-Eb | D based on the altered sound of the dominant.

Again,if your ii-v resolve in major then the introduction of the F# on the A7 is really effective because you introduce what is coming up.
Try it on a song like All of me.

Hope this will help,

SB

Well, what defines a chord as major or minor? It's the third,



True


It's the third, and it doesn't really matter what else you have on top or around it, if there is a minor third, you're going to hear it as a minor tonality.




False. And I'm referring to Major and minor key here not just chord color.
In a chord progression it is important to know what is behind a chord and what is coming up. It helps to choose what function or what color you want to use.

I didn't read through the resent posts so this might not be relevant to the current conversation.


IMO on the OP question, I use the Locrian Nat 2 scale very selectively. Little background, I'm as inside as they come IE singers love me. I use it in cases like the opening bars of woody'n you where you have those consecutive non resolving Minor II/V's.

I wouldn't use it in Stella for a number of reasons.At the tempo that that tune is usually called you have to be careful. I view those opening bars as II-7b5/V of III to II-/V of I that does not resolve. The F is just in the Key. Most of all though, the Melody is about to resolve to F.


Hope this helps more than it hurts.



AJ



Aj