My guitarist likes to play this simple jazz-style vamp that modulates back and forth between Am7 to D7. The scale that perfectly contains all the notes in these two chords is G major. However, we never specifically resolve to (or play in) the G chord in this vamp.

Does this mean that we're playing in the key of G major (as opposed to Am, etc.)?

Thanks!

That a simple 2-5 progression in the key of G Major.

Joe

yeah, like bassist4life said, its from a II-V-I progression in G, so any note in G major will fit. There are loads of songs that have that kind of feel in, check out Red Baron by Billy Cobham, uses the II-V progression a lot, as does Chamelion by Herbie Hancock.

it's a fantastic and very common cliche of a chord progression... it works because it has a little bit of tension because of the tug towards the I, but the chords are pleasant sounding so your ear doesn't feel cheated by the lack of resolution... it can roll on and on for days and days while your guitarist can do that A Dorian finger wiggling stuff with all the correct notes under the easy frets with the dots under them :D

Carlos Santana is notorious for that particular progression, and Frank Zappa used it on 'City of Tiny Lites' (Gm7 - C7), which had the solo section used a few times on various guitar solo albums, with such titles as 'Variations on the Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression' :)

Actually that would be a ii7 - V7 progression in G not "II-V-I", assuming that the D7 isn't a secondary dominant for example, where it could be i7 - IV7.

All, thanks for the replies. You confirmed my hunch was correct. Here's a Part 2 to my question.

In that same Am7-->D7 vamp, there is a "bridge" where he goes to Fmaj7-->Em7-->Ebmaj7-->Dm7

Now, is it correct to say there are two key changes here? The first one being Fmaj7 and the second Ebmaj7?

In that same Am7-->D7 vamp, there is a "bridge" where he goes to Fmaj7-->Em7-->Ebmaj7-->Dm7

Now, is it correct to say there are two key changes here? The first one being Fmaj7 and the second Ebmaj7?

There are two key changes there, only as I see it you are playing two IV-iii progressions in C major then Bb major.

Also, I'd like to point out that just because you know what key it the tune is in and what scale you can use, "any note" of that scale won't necessarily work against the chord. There are definite tension, release and even avoid notes that relate to the chords you mention. If you want to make a coherent statement, the chords must be respected. At least to some degree, until you have complete control of how you resolve your lines. But once we're talking about resolving lines, there is really no need to focus exclusively on one particular scale except maybe the chromatic scale.

That a simple 2-5 progression in the key of G Major.

Joe

No, this is incorrect. The thread starter was correct in his thought that because that the chords never actually resolve to a G major chord or any tonic derivation thereof the progression isn't in the key of G major. It will have the same key signature, yes, and all of the same notes implied by the two chord, but it is NOT in G major. Because of the strong placement of the Am7 chord relative to the D7 in the harmonic rhythm, and the fact that its a repeated phrase, you will hear the chords with relationship to an A tonic, meaning A dorain, and not a G tonic. Saying it is in the key of G major not only means saying it has a key signature of one sharp, but that you will hear the G as being the tonic, "home" note. A dorian has a key signature of one sharp as well, but it is NOT the same thing as G major.

Adjusted for the relationship to the key of A dorian, it is a Im7-IV7 vamp, one of the most common vamps you can have in a dorian mode.

Adjusted for the relationship to the key of A dorian, it is a Im7-IV7 vamp, one of the most common vamps you can have in a dorian mode.

and the parent key of A Dorian is... G major. :hiding:

There are two key changes there, only as I see it you are playing two IV-iii progressions in C major then Bb major.

+1

I agree with this analysis.

Concerning the ii V progression, I don't believe the progression needs to resolve to the I chord to be in the key of G major.

In the analysis of jazz charts you'll find many progressions that don't resolve to their tonic.

Joe

and the parent key of A Dorian is... G major. :hiding:

You could just as easily say E minor - it has one sharp as well, and Am7 and D7 are diatonic to E minor. It doesn't change the fact that it's not in E minor, or G major. The D7 doesn't have dominant function.

In the analysis of jazz charts you'll find many progressions that don't resolve to their tonic.

Very true, but their resolution is always implied or resolved deceptively to some unrelated chord. In jazz, the tonal center of a ii-V is very well defined as the corresponding I, even if it resolved away from that. If you analyzed this as a ii-V in G major, you'd have to analyze the D7 as constantly resolving deceptively and never resolving to its implied tonic. Your ear simply doesn't hear it this way. Play this chord progression on your bass for a while. Are you going to tell me that you hear G as the tonal center? Or is it A? The vast majority of listeners would say A because of the strong and constant harmonic rhythm of the first chord in the vamp, and that's how its analyzed.

what THE HELL is a parent key? the key of G major (ionian mode) has no authority over the key of A minor with a sharp 6th (dorian mode).

It's Gmaj. If it's an Amin7, (which doesn't have a sharp 6, but a NATURAL 6, flat 3rd, and flat 7th) leading to D7, then it's home key is Gmaj. No, it's not Emin6, also referred to as the relative minor of Gmaj. Since when has a ii-V ever commonly resolved by going ii-V-vi. It's not the majority case, which is not to say it isn't done, but the home key you're looking to play in (if that's your approach) is Gmaj7 (Ionian Mode).

what THE HELL is a parent key? the key of G major (ionian mode) has no authority over the key of A minor with a sharp 6th (dorian mode).

Here's what this all means.
G Major: G A B C D E F# G
A Dorian: A B C D E F# G A

Notice anything? Dorian is just starting a major scale from the second note. Spell out B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian, and F# Locrian, and see if that illuminates things a little more. All of the modes come from a related major, it helps a lot to memorize them in relation to their major key rather than just think of them as altered major/minor. So the OP is playing in Dorian, because their "home" is the ii chord.

The term is parent "Scale" not key.


Your playing in the key of Amin (dorian).

Here's what this all means.
G Major: G A B C D E F# G
A Dorian: A B C D E F# G A

Notice anything? Dorian is just starting a major scale from the second note. Spell out B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian, and F# Locrian, and see if that illuminates things a little more. All of the modes come from a related major, it helps a lot to memorize them in relation to their major key rather than just think of them as altered major/minor. So the OP is playing in Dorian, because their "home" is the ii chord.

why can't all of these modes be relative to the dorian mode? the simple point that i was trying to make was that each mode has it's own tonal characteristics. people should stop thinking of them in terms of ionian and aeolian relation...

why can't all of these modes be relative to the dorian mode? the simple point that i was trying to make was that each mode has it's own tonal characteristics. people should stop thinking of them in terms of ionian and aeolian relation...

Well, it's up to each musician to think of them however they like. But I learned modes from a teacher who explained them to me in terms of "minor with a natural 6th" etc, but when I got to college and learned that they all come from a related major it opened up theory for me in a major way.

I misunderstood your question, thinking that you didn't know the relation of modes to major keys, and was just quoting you as an example. Several people have erroneously posted that the OP is in G major when the progression doesn't include a G major chord. It can be a ii-V in a major key, but since the A minor is home and there is no G major, it is a i-IV7 in Dorian. To use your analogy, it would be like if someone said "I'm playing Gmaj7 and D7" and they got the reply "You're clearly playing a V-II7 in C Lydian".

I don't care how anyone thinks of modes but anyone who says the OP is in G does not understand modes, as progressions like that are exactly the reason why we have modes.

You could just as easily say E minor - it has one sharp as well, and Am7 and D7 are diatonic to E minor. It doesn't change the fact that it's not in E minor, or G major. The D7 doesn't have dominant function.

G is the parent scale of E Aeolian too. :D Also II and IV sub's for each other so could be viewed at a IV V in G Maj. Just kidding with you.

I see it as all the possible ways of looking at this come back to a G parent scale. Just to explain my process, not to say its right or wrong just how I view it. First the D7 is a non-functioning dominant and the scale to use is Lydian b7, Altered scale doesn't work too well because it doesn't resolve. Then to try and get a better feel for the parent key I start playing it using the chord sub's and comp'ing chords. The CMaj sub'ing or the Ami works good, but what about D7? Well the sub for a V7 is VII. So what mi7b5 work to me in that case. After trying a few the F# mi7b5 works sub'ing for the D7 in this progression. F# is the VII of G. Now comping the triads that sounded good were C and D. Playing C and D triads against Ami to D7 is a A Dorian sound because they are the IV and V of G. FYI to imply the sound of a mode when comp'ing use the IV and V triads of the Parent scale. So to me this vamp has a G parent scale sound.

So a view into the jibber jabber going on in my head. :help:

These questions often drive me crazy people IMO over think this stuff. The idea is to used words that describe what you hear. The Term "KEY center" has a very natural musical phenomenon associated with it. I means home,, means comfort,resolution. I means what 9 out of 10 people would sing as the "end" they would sing....... A...

These questions often drive me crazy people IMO over think this stuff. The idea is to used words that describe what you hear. The Term "KEY center" has a very natural musical phenomenon associated with it. I means home,, means comfort,resolution. I means what 9 out of 10 people would sing as the "end" they would sing....... A...

I don't think it's over thinking this is the kind of thing you do in practice sessions so on the gig you just let go and let the music come thru. Like in sports you practice and practice so you don't have to think at game time.

I'm sorry but it seems you misunderstand me. I really don't think I'm any theory genius but to me it pretty simple The words describe the sounds.

Sorry to pick on you but... take for example your misuse of the term parent scale. Think of the term ..I makes sense, a Parent scale that begets offspring. Baby scale has a relationship to parent scale similar to bloodlines.

I can understand allot of the confusion because theres alot of terms and allot of people saying allot of things.......


But what key is this in? For a I min 7 "tonic" (which should give you a hint about key) chord going to IV7 "Sub dominant" Vamp?

Sorry if people are saying anything more than Amin their allowing brain to out think their common sence.


Aj

Sorry if people are saying anything more than Amin their allowing brain to out think their common sence.

Yes, but if one just said "Oh ok, it's in A minor", then assumed that the scale was an A minor, you would hear something terribly wrong over the D7 chord. It's carrying a big honkin' F# as its third, and here's A minor with an F natural...see the problem? That's why it needs to be an A Dorian scale. So it's not overthinking, it's making sure that everyone is on the same page.

as progressions like that are exactly the reason why we have modes.


+1



Aj

Silent way,

I completely agree with everything you've posted and my comment about over thinking was not in any directed your way.


If you need "Key" to define a Tonal base, as apposed to asking "and what modes are we playing out of here", not just a Tonic root name and chord quality I can certainly understand that and it is likely correct.






Aj

G is the parent scale of E Aeolian too. :D Also II and IV sub's for each other so could be viewed at a IV V in G Maj. Just kidding with you.

I see it as all the possible ways of looking at this come back to a G parent scale. Just to explain my process, not to say its right or wrong just how I view it. First the D7 is a non-functioning dominant and the scale to use is Lydian b7, Altered scale doesn't work too well because it doesn't resolve. Then to try and get a better feel for the parent key I start playing it using the chord sub's and comp'ing chords. The CMaj sub'ing or the Ami works good, but what about D7? Well the sub for a V7 is VII. So what mi7b5 work to me in that case. After trying a few the F# mi7b5 works sub'ing for the D7 in this progression. F# is the VII of G. Now comping the triads that sounded good were C and D. Playing C and D triads against Ami to D7 is a A Dorian sound because they are the IV and V of G. FYI to imply the sound of a mode when comp'ing use the IV and V triads of the Parent scale. So to me this vamp has a G parent scale sound.

So a view into the jibber jabber going on in my head. :help:

Forget all of that. Ignore the all of the theory mumbo jumbo you know. Just play the two chords back and forth and tell me you honestly hear "G" and not "A" as the tonic. This is about HEARING what is home plate, not relying on previous theoretical models to judge. If you can hear it as G, well that's cool, but the vast majority of people will say A is.

Thank you, I don't feel so alone.


Aj

It's Gmaj. If it's an Amin7, (which doesn't have a sharp 6, but a NATURAL 6, flat 3rd, and flat 7th)

The Amin7 chord does not contain a sixth. The scale associated with an Amin7 chord may contain a sharp sixth or a natural sixth, depending on the context and the function that the Amin7 chord is serving. In this particular case, as has been noted before, the scale associated with this chord is the A dorian scale, which does in fact have a sharp sixth. On the other hand, let's say you're playing a tune like "Runaround Sue" in the key of C, where the progression is

C - Amin7 - F - G

In that context, the scale associated with the Amin7 chord would contain a natural sixth, but in the context of the tune the OP asked about, the scale associated with the Amin7 chord contains a raised sixth.

Just to join the party -

I agree, this is a i-IV vamp in the key of A minor. Play whatever mode(s)/scale(s) sound good to you, but A is the tonic.

Same changes as tons of tunes out there. For instance "Walkabout" by The Red Hot Chili Peppers uses these changes, and maybe "Black Magic Woman" by Santana? Can't remember, it's been a while since I played it.

Cheers,

Jeff

I am going with DocBop on this one :bassist:

it only feels like A Dorian because you get used to it never resolving.. eventually you lose the expectation of it plopping down on a G chord like a nursery rhyme song only because you realise it probably ain't gonna happen

i.e. the effect on harmony of duration... stuff I touched on in this thread (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=379652) and got completely ignored when the theory heads turned it into an irrelevant knowledge contest... some bozo thought a passing augmented chord that sounded for less than half second fundamentally took the piece into some entirely new modulated harmonic realm... (in half a second? right..)

play Am7 - D7 once, and yes you could argue that it's ii7-V7 in G major, because your ear completely expects it to resolve to a G chord....

not E minor as someone here suggested was equally plausible...

now, I can understand not wanting to call it a chord progression in G if there's no G chord anywhere near the vamp, but absolutely no way is this straight A minor... play the vamp a few times, or once, then hit a C major chord... does that sound right? nope.. does it still sound more resolved when you throw in a G ? yup.. then it aint A minor

if you have to categorise it, it's an A Dorian vamp, with a tug towards G major that gets weaker and weaker as the stasis of the chord vamp becomes apparent... I mean come on guys, this is one of the 1st things you learn about harmony... a tonal center can be established by chord movement OR it can be established by simply being hammered out until your ear gives up and does the equivalent of saying 'Ok it's not in G, I get it...'

it only feels like A Dorian because you get used to it never resolving.. eventually you lose the expectation of it plopping down on a G chord like a nursery rhyme song only because you realise it probably ain't gonna happen

i.e. the effect on harmony of duration... stuff I touched on in this thread (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=379652) and got completely ignored when the theory heads turned it into an irrelevant knowledge contest... some bozo thought a passing augmented chord that sounded for less than half second fundamentally took the piece into some entirely new modulated harmonic realm... (in half a second? right..)

play Am7 - D7 once, and yes you could argue that it's ii7-V7 in G major, because your ear completely expects it to resolve to a G chord....

not E minor as someone here suggested was equally plausible...

now, I can understand not wanting to call it a chord progression in G if there's no G chord anywhere near the vamp, but absolutely no way is this straight A minor... play the vamp a few times, or once, then hit a C major chord... does that sound right? nope.. does it still sound more resolved when you throw in a G ? yup.. then it aint A minor

if you have to categorise it, it's an A Dorian vamp, with a tug towards G major that gets weaker and weaker as the stasis of the chord vamp becomes apparent... I mean come on guys, this is one of the 1st things you learn about harmony... a tonal center can be established by chord movement OR it can be established by simply being hammered out until your ear gives up and does the equivalent of saying 'Ok it's not in G, I get it...'

Yeah, harmonic rhythm and location of chords has as much to do with chord function as the actual construction of the chords, I totally agree. Which is why here you wouldn't say it functions as a ii-V, because the context in which it lies does not have the same function as a ii-V, that is, to set up and prepare for a resolution to a tonic I chord. You could possibly think that when you first hear the two chords, yes, but like you said, as soon as its repeated several times, that expectation is thrown out the window.

I want to ***** the rules saying the only keys are major and minor. If you do that, you find that in at least western music, there are plenty of songs in the keys of mixolydian and dorian as well as ionian (major) and aeolian (natural minor). Perhaps there's even songs in the lydian, phrygian and locrian keys too, don't know.

Or then we distinguish the scales by whether the third is a major or minor one. Then dorian, phrygian, aeolian and locrian would be all be minor,and ionian, lydian and mixolydian major. Using this logic, the key would be A minor.

Problem solved. Either it is A minor or then it is A dorian. I actually would prefer to use the latter.

No reason calling it G major when it is not the tonal centre for the progression in question.

Diatonically speaking, in terms of chord structures the tonal centre is where the dominant resolves to. That also technically means that if you are playing in a minor key that your V chord will be dominant too. As far as I am concerned that is the only real defining factor in key to me.

On the other hand this is all based on diatonic paradigm as usual and the belief that what we are culturally conditioned to accept is a universal for all musical persuit. I believe personally that it is not. I don't see why the major scale has to be the parent key for any given modal permutation. The way I see it the "lydian mode" is an enharmonic of the fourth mode of the major scale. Which is to say that I believe it is its own parent scale not necessarily subject to the major scale.

As far as key goes, I personally don't think it is much more than a way to shorthand score reading. Key, in terms of actual application, limits everything down to being diatonic. Technically it doesn't have to, but how often do you hear anyone say, "This piece is in the key of F Byzantine"?

What a song resolves to isn't what determines key. It's usually a good indicator.

Write the chord progression out in notation and how would you indicate the key of A dorian? With a sharp sitting nicely on the F?.......In other words G major

From playing there the chords Am7 to D7 seems like a chord progression that just goes on and on and on and on and on and never really resolves but when you hit that G at the end you know it's the end.

I'm still thinking Gmajor

Diatonically speaking, in terms of chord structures the tonal centre is where the dominant resolves to.

You're talking traditional functional harmony here, which is why everybody is getting confused. The Am7 D7 vamp is an example of modal or static harmony, NOT functional harmony. It is incorrect to interpret it as functional harmony, because the D7 doesn't function as a dominant, and there really isn't a chord "progression," so much as a series of chords which reflect a particular mode.

You can have a tonal center without a dominant chord. Don't believe me? Play Am Bb C B Am. What's the tonal center there? Or maybe G Dm G Dm. What's it there? Or even something wacky like Bb-7(9)/C Emaj7(#5)/C Gbmaj7(#11)/C D7(#11)/C What do you think the tonal center there is? Tonal center in the broader sense, beyond strictly functional harmony, is determined by repetition and harmonic rhythm.

On the other hand this is all based on diatonic paradigm as usual and the belief that what we are culturally conditioned to accept is a universal for all musical persuit. I believe personally that it is not. I don't see why the major scale has to be the parent key for any given modal permutation. The way I see it the "lydian mode" is an enharmonic of the fourth mode of the major scale. Which is to say that I believe it is its own parent scale not necessarily subject to the major scale.

123. There is nothing really scientific about the major scale besides to say that we're used to the sound, and is a Western convenience. If you would believe George Russell and the Lydian Chromatic Concept, it's actually the lydian mode which is the naturally most ideal for basing concepts of harmony (for a variety of reasons, like if you stack 7 perfect fifths one on top of each other you get a lydian scale).

Write the chord progression out in notation and how would you indicate the key of A dorian? With a sharp sitting nicely on the F?.......In other words G major

You're point? Just because they have the same key signature doesn't mean they in the same key. This has already been discussed. A tune written in E minor has a key signature of one sharp. Does that mean it's in G major? No.

From playing there the chords Am7 to D7 seems like a chord progression that just goes on and on and on and on and on and never really resolves but when you hit that G at the end you know it's the end.

I'm still thinking Gmajor

But it doesn't hit G....so what you're saying is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what COULD come at the end, what matters is your perception as it's happening. Remember, music is an AURAL art form, and in order to analyze it you need to use your ears. Without playing a G major chord, just play a G over the progression, and JUST the progression, don't change it. Now play an A. Which sound's more like the tonal center? Don't rely on what you've previously learned about music theory. Music theory models from hundreds of years ago are way outdated. Music from the common practice period in classical music is almost entirely based on minor/major key concepts. We're beyond that now.

Let me put it another way. Consider the vamp G F G F - a really common one in rock tunes (My Generation, Tequila!, etc) and other tunes in the mixolydian mode. You would analyze that as I bVII I bVII, because the tonal center is G. It doesn't mean anything when you say "But HaVIC5, if you play C at the end, then that means it's a V IV V IV progression" because C doesn't come at the end. You could just as well analyze it to the hypothetical A minor (bVII bVI bVII bVI) or hypothetical E minor (bIII bII bIII bIII) or hypothetical whatever. Same thing here. You don't have a G major coming at the end of the Am7 D7, and so it's irrelevant. You could also feasibly analyze it in terms of E minor (IVm7 bVII7), but again, irrelevant.

One of the things that I believe is confusing people is that this is 2/3 of that common cadence everybody knows about.

II-7/V7/Imaj7/Imaj7


Thats a cleche Ionian mode chord sequence. This is a Cleche Dorian Mode sequence,completely different....



To Illustrate my point. A cleche Phrygian mode sequence would be....


E-/Fmaj/E-/Fmaj or I-7/bIImaj#11/I-7/bIImaj#11

Now thats E phryg....No sharps or flats


Its been said before by somebody

This is why we have modes!


Aj


PS how do you spell Cleche'?

PS how do you spell Cleche'?
That would depend on what you mean? Are you referring to some french guy named Cleche, or the word cliché?

You're talking traditional functional harmony here, which is why everybody is getting confused. The Am7 D7 vamp is an example of modal or static harmony, NOT functional harmony. It is incorrect to interpret it as functional harmony, because the D7 doesn't function as a dominant, and there really isn't a chord "progression," so much as a series of chords which reflect a particular mode.

You can have a tonal center without a dominant chord. Don't believe me? Play Am Bb C B Am. What's the tonal center there? Or maybe G Dm G Dm. What's it there? Or even something wacky like Bb-7(9)/C Emaj7(#5)/C Gbmaj7(#11)/C D7(#11)/C What do you think the tonal center there is? Tonal center in the broader sense, beyond strictly functional harmony, is determined by repetition and harmonic rhythm.



123. There is nothing really scientific about the major scale besides to say that we're used to the sound, and is a Western convenience. If you would believe George Russell and the Lydian Chromatic Concept, it's actually the lydian mode which is the naturally most ideal for basing concepts of harmony (for a variety of reasons, like if you stack 7 perfect fifths one on top of each other you get a lydian scale).


I know. A dominant though, no matter where it is played can imply resolution to a relative tonal centre, which will be its relative P4 interval which is strictly what I am refering to as a function of "traditional" diatonic harmony. I know that there is nothing scientific about the major scale too. that is the whole point of my post. I'm not at all confused by the dichotmy and rather, I am pointing it out. George Russell also points to the Lydian Dominant scale as the first manifestation of harmoinc series, by the way.

Diatonically speaking, in terms of chord structures the tonal centre is where the dominant resolves to. That also technically means that if you are playing in a minor key that your V chord will be dominant too. As far as I am concerned that is the only real defining factor in key to me.

On the other hand this is all based on diatonic paradigm as usual and the belief that what we are culturally conditioned to accept is a universal for all musical persuit. I believe personally that it is not. I don't see why the major scale has to be the parent key for any given modal permutation. The way I see it the "lydian mode" is an enharmonic of the fourth mode of the major scale. Which is to say that I believe it is its own parent scale not necessarily subject to the major scale.

As far as key goes, I personally don't think it is much more than a way to shorthand score reading. Key, in terms of actual application, limits everything down to being diatonic. Technically it doesn't have to, but how often do you hear anyone say, "This piece is in the key of F Byzantine"?

Modal Harmony works very differently my friend. Unless there were a G Major at the end of the vamp it would definitely be in A Dorian.

The bridge looks like 2 Imaj7-vii7's, first in F Lydian and then in Eb Lydian.

Yeah ? Tell that to the person that reads the key signature with an F# in it. Tonal harmony revolves around the tonal centre and the various movements away from and towards resolution. By the way you probably missed the point of what I am saying anyway which is that there is a difference between what traditional diatonalism says and what is possible in a real sense.