Hi,

so ive been thinking of tunes i want to transcribe so i can play with my friends and i thought of st. thomas by sonny rollins

i found the chords for tenor sax and tenor sax solo on lucas pickford.com

i know that tenor sax is a Bb instrument, but i still find the concept of transposing extremely confusing

do i need to transpose at all for chords and for tenor sax what do i trasnpose it to specifically (ex. B7)

Thanks,
Jake

To transpose a chart written for tenor sax to a C instrument like bass, you need to transpose the chords down 1 step. So, for example, the chart that you have probably has the sax starting on a D Major chord. Transpose that to a C Major chord for bass.

thank you

To transpose a chart written for tenor sax to a C instrument like bass, you need to transpose the chords down 1 step. So, for example, the chart that you have probably has the sax starting on a D Major chord. Transpose that to a C Major chord for bass.

I'm confused now. Doesn't he want to go up 1 step to take Bb to C?

I'm confused now. Doesn't he want to go up 1 step to take Bb to C?

If you play a C on a Bb instrument, it sounds like Bb.

So if the saxophonist plays a C major chord, he's actually playing a Bb major chord, so we need to transpose down a whole tone to match him.

To play tenor sax music on a C instrument (such as a bass guitar) you'd need to transpose all the notes and chords from the tenor sax music up a whole tone, so a B7 chord for tenor sax would be a Db7 for bass guitar.

If you play a C on a Bb instrument, it sounds like Bb.

So if the saxophonist plays a C major chord, he's actually playing a Bb major chord, so we need to transpose down a whole tone to match him.


Because Bb is a step below C, if a tenor plays a Bb arpeggio it will sound as an Ab arpeggio. Transpose the chart a step up.

Because Bb is a step below C, if a tenor plays a Bb arpeggio it will sound as an Ab arpeggio. Transpose the chart a step up.

Uh, I think one of us is confused...

The saxophonist is reading and playing a C major chord... the sound he actually makes is a Bb major chord.

What are you going to do to play the same chord as him? Play a whole step below the C (Bb) or a whole step above the C (D)?

Edit: I'm reading the original post as meaning he's found music for the tenor sax and wants to play it on the bass.

i found the chords for tenor sax and tenor sax solo on lucas pickford.com



If you've got a tenor chart, and want to play it with him, transpose up a step.

Edit: I'm reading the original post as meaning he's found music for the tenor sax and wants to play it on the bass.


Right, so the music is one step below sounding pitch. Transpose up.

If you've got a tenor chart, and want to play it with him, transpose up a step.

So what chords would you play if the sax chart says:

Dm G7 C

A real simple and free transposing tool you can print is right here:http://www.tikiking.com/tools.html

This is slightly easier...

http://www.saxontheweb.net/pictures/Transp_chart.gif

If a Bb instrument (tenor sax) is playing a G, C instruments should play an F, and so on.

I see what you're saying. I've asked my Bb trumpet-playing friends what note they're really playing when the music says play a 'C'. I've received various answers. I never could quite get a straight answer. One told me there are two types of musical scores for trumpets -- perhaps one where 'C' means 'Bb' and one where 'C' means 'C'.

So what you're saying is that, when the score says play 'C', the trumpet actually plays Bb. In that case, other instruments would have to play down 1 step to match.

I do know the bass music for many tunes with horns (e.g. Earth, Wind and Fire) is in the key of Bb. So what you say makes sense.

This is slightly easier...

http://www.saxontheweb.net/pictures/Transp_chart.gif

If a Bb instrument (tenor sax) is playing a G, C instruments should play an F, and so on.

I see what your saying and it makes sense. However, that chart does not coincide with your statement. It actually confuses things more for me. :confused:

I see what your saying and it makes sense. However, that chart does not coincide with your statement. It actually confuses things more for me. :confused:

Look at the top line.

If a Bb instrument is playing what they call an F, the sound it is making is actually an Eb. That's the note a C instrument would have to play to get the same note.

An Eb instrument like an alto sax would have to play what they call a C to get the same note.

So what you're saying is that, when the score says play 'C', the trumpet actually plays Bb. In that case, other instruments would have to play down 1 step to match.

When a clarinet player on a Bb clarinet is handed a piece of music written for that instrument, when he sees a middle C, he will cover the holes that are stopped by his left hand thumb, first, second and third fingers. He'll think of it as a 'C' as well, but if you go to a piano and find the same note, it is actually a Bb.

I played clarinet and saxophone as a kid and wasn't too bad at it... I played first clarinet in the senior county schools orchestra. I had to carry around two clarinets, one Bb, one A that are used for specific keys. The A clarinet is noticeably bigger than the Bb, as it plays a lower note.

And, if anyone is wondering why the instruments transpose, they're not equally tempered instruments... they sound better in specific keys, and play differently. The Bb clarinet is easier to play than an A clarinet for example.

If you've got a tenor chart, and want to play it with him, transpose up a step.

No, you have it backwards. If the tenor sax is reading a concert pitch chart, he will need to transpose up a step. If a concert-pitch instrument is reading a tenor sax chart, he will need to transpose down a step.

So, for example, if the tenor sax chart has the following progression:

D | B7 | Emin7 A7 | D

then the bass player reading the tenor sax chart should play:

C | A7 | Dmin7 G7 | C

You're right. I'm jacked up...

ok so if i were to play with an alto sax player, would i have to change the chords i play

my friend who plays alto sax showed me his chord chart, in relation to tenor sax it was a step down

my friend who plays alto sax showed me his chord chart, in relation to tenor sax it was a step down

That can't be right.

Another way to view this is that when a player of a transposing instrument looks at a written "C" and plays what they call a "C" note they make the sound of the name of their instrument. In Other Words: When a Bb trumpet player sees a "C" and fingers a "C" the SOUND of the note is Bb. Alto saxphones are in Eb so when they see a "C" the sound is an Eb. French horns are in F... so they will sound an F when they are playing they note they call "C".

The term 'Concert' refers to the pitchs that a piano would play. Bass is in concert pitch (although we sound an octave lower than the written pitch). So are all the string instruments. Flutes and oboes are in concert pitch. Most wind instruments are transposing instruments of some kind. Except for tuba, all instruments that ready bass clef are concert pitch.

All of these instruments can play in any key, but they have to make adjustments so that their sounds will match the concert pitch. If you call "Bb Blues", the bass, piano and guitar will play in the key of Bb. The trumpet will play in their key of C and the Alto sax will play in their key of G.... and all will be good together.

This can be confusing (obviously) the first time you encounter transposing instruments, but its not really rocket science, just something you have to get in your head if you are going to write music for these instrument. FWIW, it is generally expected of professional players to be able to tranpose (at sight) concert pitch charts for their instruments. But, if you are on the studio clock, it pays to transpose the charts for them.

ok so if i were to play with an alto sax player, would i have to change the chords i play

my friend who plays alto sax showed me his chord chart, in relation to tenor sax it was a step down

If an alto sax player is playing a C, you should play an Eb. You should transpose up a step and a half.

If an alto player has a chart that is a step down from the tenor player's chart, he has the wrong chart. His should be a perfect fifth above the tenor player's chart.

Mind you, I've had sax charts that have had the chords for piano written above them... are you sure that wasn't the case?

alto and tenor charts should not be a step apart. Alto is in E flat.

It works like this: if an alto sax plays what to him is a c, an e flat comes out. If a tenor sax plays what to him is a c, a b flat comes out. Alto and Bari sax are e flat. Trumpet, tenor sax and soprano sax are b flat.

Not that this has much to do with the initial question but my curiosity is up: Why is it done this way? Why not just have a C be C regardless of the instrument? Why have someone look at the note "C" on staff paper, think the note "C" in their minds, but actually be blowing a Bb out of their horn? What is the advantage? Again, just curious.

Well, for one thing, it allows sax players to use consistent fingerings regardless of which horn they're playing. A sax player can look at a C on his chart and play a C using the same fingering regardless of whether he is playing alto, tenor, bari, etc. If the saxophone read concert pitch charts, the finger for a C on one sax would be the same as the fingering for a G on another sax.

There are a number of reasons why they are transposing instruments.

Take the clarinet... You most commonly find them in Bb and A, but historically there was a C clarinet. Originally, they looked much like a recorder, with little of the keywork used for playing accidentals. Musicians could cover a few keys with each clarinet before the intonation became terrible and the fingering extremely difficult.

A clarinetist could play pieces in Ab Eb, Bb, F or C fairly easily on a Bb clarinet, pieces in Bb, F, C, G or D fairly easily on a C clarinet, and G, D, A, E or B on an A clarinet. It was easier for a player to stick to one set of fingerings and transpose the music, rather than learn three sets of fingerings.

Improvements in design pretty much removed any need for the C clarinet in terms of its range, but tradition being the thing it is, clarinetists stuck with the fingerings they knew.

The other consideration is that the different instruments sound different. An 'A' clarinet sounds much darker than a Bb, and the C clarinet apparently sounds very bright (although I've never played one). It was this that eventually killed the C clarinet and the C saxophone... they just didn't sound as good as their Bb companions.

You also get clarinets in Ab, Eb, D, and G, but these are rarer. The related basset horn plays in F.

Pretty much the same story goes for the other horns, which settled on Bb as the most common.

Sort of like tuning a bass down a half-step so you can use all your open-E licks instead of learning different fingering patterns to play in Eb?

Sort of like tuning a bass down a half-step so you can use all your open-E licks instead of learning different fingering patterns to play in Eb?

A bit.

A pretty good analogy would be a guitarist using a capo to play open chords... I use a capo on guitar because the tonality of open chords differs from barre chords. But if I have the capo on the third fret and play a G major shape, I'm still thinking of the chord as 'G' rather than 'Bb'.

It also might be interesting to point out that the bass is a transposing instrument, in that it sounds an octave below what is written.

A bit.

A pretty good analogy would be a guitarist using a capo to play open chords... I use a capo on guitar because the tonality of open chords differs from barre chords. But if I have the capo on the third fret and play a G major shape, I'm still thinking of the chord as 'G' rather than 'Bb'.

I guess that is why this is throwing me a bit. I think of the actual chord instead of the shape. In your example, even though my fingers would be in a shape I use for the G chord, my mind would be saying, "I'm playing a Bb chord right now." The same thing if I tune down the bass a half step--when I hit my open "E" string, I will call it an Eb, not an E.

im really only asking for this specific tune (St. Thomas by Sonny Rollins), its easy when someone gives me the music for bass specifically, but i dont have that

for anyone who knows the tune, should i just post what i have from both sources and see what's right and wrong

Thanks

What are the chords for tenor sax?

St. Thomas (concert pitch)

C6 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 C6 | x |
C6 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 C6 | x |
Em7(b5) Bb7 A7 | x | Dm7 Ab7(#5) G7 | x |
C7 C9/E | F6 F#dim7 | C6/G G7 C | x ||

(x indicates a measure of rest)

St. Thomas (concert pitch)

C6 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 C6 | x |
C6 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 C6 | x |
Em7(b5) Bb7 A7 | x | Dm7 Ab7(#5) G7 | x |
C7 C9/E | F6 F#dim7 | C6/G G7 C | x ||

(x indicates a measure of rest)

that's what i have on the chart my friend gave me for alto

Thanks

What are the chords for tenor sax?

Source: Transcription for Tenor Sax Solo from lucaspickford.com, i think there are chord changes in the solo but here you go:

D6 / B7 / Em7 A7/ D6 /
D6 / B7 / Em7 A7/ D6 /
F#7b5 / B7 / Em7 / A7 /
D7 / G6 G#dim7 / D6 A7 / D6 /