:help::help:hello everyone,
for the jazz history class, I have a work to do. Mine could be entilted: «What influence has had the amplification on the acoustic bass over the years?». Instead of reading in the books (and I guess there aren't that many books on the topic) I thought it would be much more interessting to ask reall people. One part would be more "anonymous" people, and the second part people like big names (ron carter, dave holland). I have thought about some questions which could help, but what I am really asking here is this: for those who have played for long enough to observe a significant change, what influence the amplification (and its improvement) has had on the acousitc bass, and its function/ importance in the music (on arrangement, composition, improvisation). here are the questions:
- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)
- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)
- Is it the same live and in studio ?
- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?
- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)
- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)
- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)
- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)

also; since I want to ask some famous guy, but can not find all the contacts info, maybe someone could help me to find the contacts. here are the people I thought would be interesting to ask:

Dave Holland, John Patitucci, Christian Mcbride, Ron Carter, Reggie Workman, Scott Colley, Avishai Coehn, Drew Gress, François Moutin, Eddie Gomez, Anders Jormin, Larry Grenadier, Dan Berglund, Gary Peacock, Charlie Haden, Stanley Clarke, George Mraz, Buster Williams.
:help::help:
I am soooo sorry:( for such a long post, but any help would be greatly appriciated! :smug:
thanks a lot (and I'll post that as well in the "bassist" section for the contact infos.)
thanks a million time
yannick

If you can find it, there was a cool video years ago with Ray Brown, Edgar Meyer, and Victor Wooten together. There was a section where Victor and Edgar were talking about how much stronger Ray's hands were, and how Edgar relied a lot more on low action and amplification, whereas Ray's tone came from his hands and a higher action. Something like that ... it's been 10 or 15 years since I saw it. Good discussion on the vid though, from pretty good examples of "old school" and "new school."

Cheers

cool, do you think you have any references for that video?
that's really what it's about: old school / new school. thanks!

It was, I think, aired on the PBS show "Lonesome Pine Special". I don't know if it's available, but maybe you can track it down. I used to have it on vhs, recorded from the tv broadcast, but lost it in a move years ago.

Just did some googling ... lots of clips from that show on YouTube. Maybe one of them has the conversation I'm thinking of ... or you could contact the people who have posted the videos and see if someone has the whole thing recorded and might be willing to help you out??

Good luck. It's a cool project you're doing. I wouldn't mind reading it when you're done, if you're willing to let someone else see it.

All the best!

Interesting subject for a paper. Chuck Israels had a lot to say about this topic. http://www.chuckisraels.com/articledepartment.htm. You should download this article. I would add that John Clayton swore that he would never allow the engineers to use a amp to record live from after he recorded the live album with Monte Alexander on BASF.
Within the last 20 years there has been a traditionalist movement within the larger bass community to use gut strings and microphones to get a "more natural sound" some subscribe to this other's don't.
Some of the finest live jazz recordings done on Blue Note, Columbia and Riverside with the likes of Paul Chambers, Sam Jones, and Oscar Pettiford were done without an amplifier right into a mic.
IMHO I use a pickup and amplifier in most situations because I can get a pleasing tone and match the volume of today's 15 ply drum kits.

Ric

Chuck Israels had a lot to say about this topic.

Funny, I was just going to recommend contacting Chuck Israels about this topic. I had a great conversation with him about the whole amplification thing after he performed a show once. This was at a jazz club that always mics every single musician (except maybe the drums), but Chuck insisted that everything be acoustic. He just asked the audience to keep quiet so that everybody could hear. It sounded great. Of course, for those of us that are playing in noisy bars instead of fancy jazz clubs, this is not always an option.

As for myself, I often (usually, to be honest) use an amp. I use a mix of a mic and a pickup. I have given up on trying to get the "my bass only louder" thing, as it rarely seems to work. I instead try to get a consistent, clear sound that doesn't require me to change the way I play the bass. (For example, if my pickup/amp combination increases the sustain of the notes compared to when I play acoustically, that makes me change the way I pluck the strings to compensate. To me replicating the feel of the note is more important than perfectly replicating the sound, does this make sense?)

Also, I don't take amplification into account much, if at all, when deciding how to setup my bass (action, strings, etc.). I try to get the best acoustic sound possible and work the amplification around that.

Finally, in the studio I try to never use a signal from the pickup. In fact I often take the pickup off before I go in to the studio (this drives engineers crazy). The micing is usually done differently from live performance as well. When performing live I have the mic extremely close to the bass to maximize gain and minimize bleed. In the studio, I often try to have the mic further away.

You may find this useful:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/64710-upright-bass-still-pita.html

It's a discussion on a recording engineers forum on how to record double bass. There are some top guys involved who have recorded many really big name bassists. They range over many topics, including the old school / new school thing - basically saying that everything was better in the good old days when bassists were real men, and it's all Scott LeFaro and Ron Carter's fault. Fascinating reading!

Great link, David. Thanks!

yeah it's a really cool link, thanks a lot!
for those of you who wants to read my work when it's done: I live in switzerland, french speaking part, so the work will be in french. I thought I could translate it if some people want to read it, but the deadline for it is next june; and I'm sure it'll take some time to get answers from ron carter dave holland and the likes. as for that, I still haven't found the contact infos; most of what I've found is the management adress. I'm really not sure they'll even get my letter if I send it there, so once again, if any of you have taken a lesson with one of the players on the list, or somebody else that might want to answer those question (like the chuck israels - very cool idea here) thanks to give me their email adress (or just adress). here's the list:
dave holland, john patitucci, christian mcbride, ron carter, reggie workman, scott colley, avishai cohen, drew gress, françois moutin, eddie gomez, anders jormin, larry grenadier, dan berglund, gary peacock, charlie , staley clarke, george mraz, buster williams, chuck israels, dennis irwin.
for the people who answered, thanks a lot. one more question: do you think that the fact you can be heard better gives you a different place in the music ? (say that people would give you more soli, or start to complains about the intonation cause suddenly they here something.... or whatever, good or bad welcome) thanks a lot!!!
yannick

- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)

Yes. I think the way bands balance their sound has really changed. I unfortunately 'blame' drummers for part of this. It is almost impossible to play with a loud drummer without an amp. We take a bit of a "well if they can't quiet down then don't play with them" approach around here but then the reality of working sets in. Having a no nonsense sound and attitude keeps you working. Some guys, like ED, get it to work. I wish I could. Truthfully I only go ampless if there is no drummer on the gig. Sometimes the vibe of the band depends on the drummer being able to let loose a bit. Nature of the beast I guess.

I went to an interesting clinic with Wynton a few years back. He was critiquing a college band. The first thing he said was "Some nice playing. Now the bass player has got to lose that amp and you need to work on balancing you sound acoustically". Always stuck with me. Love him or not, Wynton's band has a great sound.

I do think amplification has changed some bass players approach to the instrument. I don't know if I buy all the stuff on that recording engineers forum. That said I spend lots of time on my own acoustic sound. I also spend lots of time with my students on the same issue. I've always believed the DB is an acoustic instrument and the amp is support. The funny thing is that if you are getting a good, strong sound out of the bass you can get a pretty workable sound with most amp/pickup combos.


- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)

Realist --> GK MB150S. Sometimes a Fishman Platinum Pro if it is a strange room acoustically. Mic only to pa (if there is one).


- Is it the same live and in studio ?

MIC ONLY IN THE STUDIO. Oh, was I yelling. Sorry.


- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?

If an amp is involved... part of my sound. I have never heard a 'bass only louder' tone out of an amp. The only times I've heard it is mic into a high end pa with a sound guy who knows what he is doing.


- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)

No.


- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)

I don't use an amp when I practice and I try to forget it is there on stage.

What I have always loved about the DB is its acoustic sound. For me, amplification is a necessary evil. Others here have commented on why it becomes necessary. My goal, rarely achieved, is for the acoustic sound but bigger. Some players, even fantastic players, have made amplification very much a part of their sound and changed the setup of the bass along with it. Those are not the players to whom I am drawn.


- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)

Yes, out of necessity, but I try for minimal reinforcement of the acoustic sound.



- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)

Rev. Solo II, EA iamp200, Wizzy 12.


- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?

I try for the latter.


- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)

Absolutely not.


- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)

Not at all. Technique and sound are based entirely on playing without an amp.


- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)

Wow, one could write a book here. Amps are now smaller, lighter, more powerful, and quieter with better tone-shaping circuitry. Speaker cabinets have improved as a result of computer aided design and applications of optimization equations (e.g., Thiele-Small alignments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small)). None of this has changed how I approach the instrument.


- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)


Not really at all.

Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)
Yes, because I have to. I'm a hobby level jazz player, and I play with drummers at the same level as myself - they rarely master the art of playing quietly, because that's a pretty sophisticated thing for a drummer. The sax players I play with are pretty loud too.

What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)

So far it's been Realist and Balsereit piezo pick-ups through an AI amp and a Rich Raezer speaker. I've experimented with mikes and I intend to persevere, I think a mike through the band PA with my own pickup/amp just as a quiet stage monitor is the way to go. But it's a pain in the A because you have to watch for feedback, the mike volume control is out of your reach, and you have cables everywhere.

Is it the same live and in studio ?
I've only had two experiences of being recorded in a studio, but that was enough to convince me: absolutely not the same. Live is always a compromise with the sounds around you and with feedback, forcing you to choose between piezo for an easy life or mike for a better sound but a lot of hassles, while in the studio you can just play acoustic and let the experts mike you, in a cabin if necessary.

Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?
Definitely the latter. I love the natural sound of my bass and hate the sound coming out of my amp when I have to turn up loud.

Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)
In a negative sense, yes it does: I wouldn't especially choose a quiet bass with low action because I'll be playing amplified, but if that happens to be the one I like, I'll take it without thinking about it, the acoustic volume is just not an issue. If I'd lived in the old days, I would presumably go out of my way to get the loudest bass and set up possible, making compromises with other criteria.

How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)
I like the strongly percussive sound I get when I'm practicing unamplified at home. But as a hobby player, hours of home practice on a daily basis isn't possible, so quite a lot of my practicing is with the band, therefore amplified. I suspect this is hindering my development of a good right-hand technique.

How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)
Skipping this question because I've only been playing for a few years and had the Realist/AI/Raezer combination from the beginning.

How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)
Absolutely not at all. To me, the acoustic sound of the double bass is exactly right for the straight ahead jazz I want to play, and I'm fighting against the amplification in my attempt to keep that sound. I'm not prepared to go with the amplified sound and work with it because it's the wrong sound.

Yes. I think the way bands balance their sound has really changed. I unfortunately 'blame' drummers for part of this. It is almost impossible to play with a loud drummer without an amp. We take a bit of a "well if they can't quiet down then don't play with them" approach around here but then the reality of working sets in. Having a no nonsense sound and attitude keeps you working. Some guys, like ED, get it to work. I wish I could. Truthfully I only go ampless if there is no drummer on the gig. Sometimes the vibe of the band depends on the drummer being able to let loose a bit. Nature of the beast I guess.

Well, actually there is quite a difference between today's modern drum kits and the ones players used in the 60' and 70's. They are a great deal louder because of improved construction and manufacturing techniques. So IMHO it's drummers who play on a kit that's actually designed for pop and rock that create the problems. Good drummers have two kits one for jazz.


I went to an interesting clinic with Wynton a few years back. He was critiquing a college band. The first thing he said was "Some nice playing. Now the bass player has got to lose that amp and you need to work on balancing you sound acoustically". Always stuck with me. Love him or not, Wynton's band has a great sound.


Wynton was definitely a driving force (not the only one mind you) in the no amplifier movement. However, you have to have a good deal of knowledge and experience playing into a mic and the sound man has to know how to mic a bass correctly. John Clayton and Todd Coolman were both doing this before Wynton decided to be the spokesperson.

.

Well, actually there is quite a difference between today's modern drum kits and the ones players used in the 60' and 70's. They are a great deal louder because of improved construction and manufacturing techniques. So IMHO it's drummers who play on a kit that's actually designed for pop and rock that create the problems. Good drummers have two kits one for jazz.

Agreed but lotsa jazz cats who play vintage jazz kits can still be plenty loud IME. I personally have no problem with drummers getting loud as long as it fits the situation at hand.

Wynton was definitely a driving force (not the only one mind you) in the no amplifier movement. However, you have to have a good deal of knowledge and experience playing into a mic and the sound man has to know how to mic a bass correctly. John Clayton and Todd Coolman were both doing this before Wynton decided to be the spokesperson.

How did those guys (clayton and Coolman) deal with amps and pickups?

The one that we hear the most about is 'young lions' thing in New York. The sort of neo-traditionalist movement. I love to hear about this from a sommeone who was there when it was in its hayday.

-Under bridge pickup and a specialised amp, pa assistance when nescessary.
-in studio just a mike
-I don't think there's a big influence on my technique. I do use different sounds life though, not all of them are true to the acoustic sound. sometimes it's better to sound larger than life, sometimes it saves me the trouble of changing over to an electric bass, sometimes it's just fun to try something different.
-Being able to have the option of a big, more bass heavy sound changed the way salsa an modern bigbands sound. I personally like that and I think the duke would have liked it too.

Agreed but lotsa jazz cats who play vintage jazz kits can still be plenty loud IME. I personally have no problem with drummers getting loud as long as it fits the situation at hand.


How did those guys (clayton and Coolman) deal with amps and pickups?

Todd had the Older Schertler Stat B when I first heard him. Later he started using the AMT into the house without a pickup. John uses a mic for the most part without a pickup. I haven't seen either one of these gentlemen for a while but that's what they were doing when they played St. Louis in the 90's.


The one that we hear the most about is 'young lions' thing in New York. The sort of neo-traditionalist movement. I love to hear about this from a sommeone who was there when it was in its hayday.

That would be great wouldn't it. George Mraz was one of the few players who IMHO sounded great with the Wilson Pickup. Charlie Hayden used the Dual Element Stat B and you have to love his sound.

Charlie Hayden used the Dual Element Stat B and you have to love his sound.

I was at a workshop with Charlie Haden recently, we discussed all the different amplification gear and approaches, and he demonstrated his great sound to us, but with his amp set very quiet. Practically everybody in the room shouted simultaneously "Yeah, but they all sound great when they're set that quiet! How does it sound when you make it louder?" Charlie said "Why would I want to make it louder?" We all kind looked at each other, and somebody said "Well, to be heard over the band". Charlie said "Sorry, I don't understand - I always play just like this, and the band plays quiet enough so everybody can hear me."

Yeah, if you're Charlie Haden they do...

I was at a workshop with Charlie Haden recently, we discussed all the different amplification gear and approaches, and he demonstrated his great sound to us, but with his amp set very quiet. Practically everybody in the room shouted simultaneously "Yeah, but they all sound great when they're set that quiet! How does it sound when you make it louder?" Charlie said "Why would I want to make it louder?" We all kind looked at each other, and somebody said "Well, to be heard over the band". Charlie said "Sorry, I don't understand - I always play just like this, and the band plays quiet enough so everybody can hear me."

Yeah, if you're Charlie Haden they do...

Charlie is so significant in the "Jazz Bass Lexicon" that folks will play quieter with him, and the people he plays with are very good at using dynamics. (that dosen't hold true for us mortals). Actually, he has no choice but to play soft since he suffers from tinnitus and hypercussus. When I saw him with Song X they had to enclose him in a plexiglass box.

if you go to todd coolman's website (toddcoolman.com) and send him an email he should be quick responding to you. He is currently playing a Euphonic Audio set up. Also, Dave Holland was very quick to respond to my emails multiple times at the email from his website. Most of those guys mentioned should be fairly quick in responding to emails through their personal websites.


- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)
I play jazz with other people almost everyday of the week here at school and I never amplify myself in any situation other than performances and it is at a very low volume. Something I've worked on since I stated is producing a big acoustic sound and I feel I get more response from the bass itself and other band members when I play acousticly.
Even with medium action and steel strings I have never been told that others had trouble hearing me even over very loud drummers.


- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)
I use a realist pickup. The amp varies. My personal amp is a trace elliot head with an ashdown 2 10 cabinet, but I have acess to an acoustic image combo most of the time I need to use an amp.


- Is it the same live and in studio ?
No. I record through a mic only.

- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?
I try to deal with the sound of an amp and project my sound through it as best I can. Low amp volume and playing with a big acoustic tone is the best compromise I've found for myself. But thats not to say I don't absolutely love some amplified tones, I just cant seem to get them myself. I really enjoy Eddie Gomez and NHOP's sounds, Also some of Ron Carters amp tones I can dig.

- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)
No. I play a big bass with medium action and hybrid strings.

- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)
It just allows me to play in certain situations where I can't compete without straining. Technique wise it really hasn't affected me at all.

- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)
Well I wasn't around to see the days when no one used an amp, But I do think it has helped and hurt. It's clearly helped certain people truly achive their personal sounds and concepts, but it along with loud drummers has left many other intruments with a lack of dynamic range.


- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)
Although it goes against some of what I said, I do think that amps have affected the way some people arrange their music. Its allowed bass players to play more rhythmically and melodically oriented lines and be heard clearly above a band. Not to say this isn't possible without an amp, but the amp has helped to make this a more standard thing in modern jazz.

- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)

Usually, but not always

What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)

Fishman FC, Shure Beta 57 mixed through an AI Focus, through an EA Wizzy 10.

Is it the same live and in studio ?

No. In the studio I'm mic only.

Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?

Both, but I'm going for the latter. Once I get as close as I can, it's all part of my sound in whatever room I'm playing in.

Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)

Not really. I tend to like strings that amplify well, but that may just be a coincidence.

How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)

The easier it is to get a sound I like, the easier it is to play on that night.


How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)

It's gotten a lot better. Every little bit helps.

How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)

Not at all except that it allows me to play with aggressive drummers and still be heard (somewhat).

Last, I used to (at times) practice using my amps until I found the sound. Once I dialed it in, i usually wouldn't until i was breaking in some new gear. But "my sound, only louder" is always the holy grail.

Just a day jobber / part timer here. Most of what I play is jazz.

- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)

My bass is inaudible in a typical jazz setting, so I am almost always amplified

- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)

Mainstream transducer setup into bass amp. I find mics to be unworkable on crowded stages, and many of my gigs do not provide PA.

- Is it the same live and in studio ?

Miked in the studio. Actually, the accurate answer is: "Whatever the engineer wants."

- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?

I think it is definitely part of the sound. While remaining respectful to the upright bass tone, I want an amplified tone that is "workable" at higher volume.

- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)

No influence. I go for a traditional bass setup, but I have never had a high action.

- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)

Taking advantage of amp gain lets me be more "busy" if I want to be, and if the band can stand it. I don't have to worry about conserving my strength in order to last through the night.

- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)

Stuff has gotten more reliable, ergonomic, portable. Speakers have improved thanks to computerized design techniques and advanced driver materials. Gear makers are addressing the market for upright bass, rather than assuming that we will adapt to electric bass gear. And of course there has been incremental improvement in the quality and variety of pickups.

- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)

I think it helps a lesser player like myself to be more like one among equals in the jazz combo. Also, I think the electric bass has influenced my upright playing.

One general comment. My love of the bass is a love of the un-amplified string bass, sometimes played with a bow. I practice without an amp because I enjoy it more that way. This is despite the fact that I am interested in the workings of amp gear, to the point of obsession. But I feel that no amp can make a bass sound good without an amp, so the bass has to start out sounding good and playing well by itself, even if it makes amplification more difficult.

The easier it is to get a sound I like, the easier it is to play on that night.

+1 on this. For me, the holy grail of amp gear is whatever I don't have to think about during the gig.

Well, I'm not the seasoned pro that I think many others are on this forum. I did start out on electric and then began playing upright when I could actually afford to buy one after college. That said, I play professionally and have now been playing upright professionally for about 7 years. I still feel more comfortable on an electric bass in some ways but I've pushed myself to play upright on all sorts of gigs in big rooms, small rooms with loud drummers and with very tasteful ones. At first i wasn't going to respond, but after reading some of the other posts I really do feel I have a different perspective. I hope these answers are useful to you!

- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)
Yes. In most performance situations I am expected to do so. Ocasionially, on a drummerless gig, or at rehearsals I feel I can play and be heard unamplified but these situations are rare.
- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)
Just like the "good drummers" mentioned in an earlier post, I have (at least) two different sized amps:
Small:
Water Woods head through a Bergantino 1x12 speaker using a high pass filter, Fishman Full Circle pick up and steel (spirochore) strings.
Large (outdoor or very large venues usually doubling on electric):
Demeter HBP-1 preamp through a Peavy dpc1400x poweramp and either one or two Epifani 3x10 cabinets. This is disgustingly large and reserved for only very specific large and loud performances.

- Is it the same live and in studio ?
No. I of course use any number of mics that the engineer recommends, or bring my Audio technica 4047. BUT in grave contrast to some of the other respondees, I always have the engineer set up a second track with the pick up sound. In the modern era of digital recording with nearly limitless track counts it just doesn't make sense not to do so. About half of the time a small amount of the pickup signal will be used. For one thing, it will have very little bleed compared to a mic. For another, many engineers find it easier to apply EQ to the pickup. That way, if the mic signal isn't just perfect, we can add a little of what is missing by very aggressively EQing the pic up and blending a small amount of it into the mic signal. The mic can remain flat and hopefully more "natural" sounding.
Lastly, the pickup is a back up in case something goes dreadfully wrong with the mic. It's never a bad idea to have a "plan B."

- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?

Both statements are true for me. In some situations I want something very "traditional" or "acoustic" sounding. In others, I want the bass to sing out in the high registers, or growl more, or sound even deeper or punchier. An earlier poster mentioned Salsa bass as being very dependent on amplification. I agree. When I play in large Latin ensembles I often make the bass a bit 'unaturally' loud and deep because I feel that this is part of the tradition of some forms of dance music.
Sometimes, I get a sound from an amp that isn't exactly the true acoutic tone of my bass, but nevertheless it is a sound that is very effective, easy for the sound engineer, or compliments the sound of the other instruments (bass drum especially) or somehow just fits the particular song/ensemble/room/mood I'm in. Or it's the only sound that I can use that will avoid feedback! Rather than twiddle knobs all night trying to get the "perfect" acoustic sound, I consciously try to embrace the amplified tone and play to it's strengths/weaknesses. Maybe another way to say this is that I try to "own" whatever sound I'm getting.

- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)

No. Or at least not much. I do use an adjustable bridge and I'll occasionally set the bridge higher or lower depending on the kind of tone I'm looking for, but it doesn't really vary by more than 2mm. I do associate the amplified sound of Ron Carter, George Mraz, etc. with low action and the more traditional sounds of Ray Brown, Christian McBride, Paul Chambers etc with higher action, but I feel that I can only adjust myself and my bass slightly in either direction. I feel that my bass kind of has a way that it 'wants' to be set up and that my hands and my technique have limited parameters in which they can operate. I did at one time have two basses and thought that I would set one up for acoustic and classical and one for amplified and strictly pizzicato. Unfortunately, I recently sold one because I couldn't afford to maintain two instruments. That approach is a sensible option in my opinion and I might try to buy another instrument in the future.

- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)

Very recently, I thought that I wanted to get a more acoustic tone and tried using heavier strings, raising the action more severely and I tried to change my right hand pizz technique. I thought that I was playing too much for the amplifier and not enough for the sound I get from the instrument itself. Suprisingly, I found that heavier strings-even the heaviest- didn't make much difference in acoustic volume at all, and that in an effort to play entirely acoustically one of the things I was getting less of was dynamics. Not a good thing! I find that a judicious amount of amplification actually helps me to have a wider dynamic range, rather than playing forte and mezzo-forte all night just to be heard. Whether this is acceptable to traditionalists or not, I will continue to choose a sensible amount of amplication so that I can continue to play the instrument in a wide dynamic range.

- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)

Of course it's much better. And lighter! But the flip side is that with so many choices and with the high expections of "my bass-only louder" many players, including me sometimes, spend too much time worrying about the amp and not enough time just playing music.

- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)

A little bit. It depends on the music of course. I feel that double bass can now very easily sit in the largest and loudest of ensembles quite comfortably. Remember the trend in the 1970's when many big band leaders actually preferred using electric bass instead of acoustic? I can't say that I ever personally agreed with that choice but it happened because they could actually HEAR the electric bass clearly and with a good enough musician playing an electric bass, the music didn't really suffer as much as it gained. Now with many effective options for amplifying an acoustic bass available, the upright bass is an easier (and ultimately, still a more traditional) choice to make -there isn't as much of a comprimise anymore.
In my own case, I feel that I'm more willing to take risks when I'm confident that the amplified sound I'm using is effective. When I don't have a good amplified tone (difficult acoustics, bad engineer, other musicians playing too loud, or simply beacuse I can't hear myself well) I will often opt for simpler, safer parts that I know I can execute. When the amplification is working effectively I feel more confident and take more risks, try new things etc. As I get better at setting up and using an amplifier (and using newer, superior amplifiers), to a small degree I become a more confident player on the bandstand.
Of course, none of this is a substitute for practice and good technique. I will always strive for more of both.
I always practice acoustically. I do believe that a player has to begin with their acoustic tone, but I also think that amplification in judicious amounts (relative to the size of the room, the volume size of the ensemble and the style of music) can make for better performances, better communication with the audience and ulimately better music.

[QUOTE=Ric Vice;5257683].

Well, actually there is quite a difference between today's modern drum kits and the ones players used in the 60' and 70's. They are a great deal louder because of improved construction and manufacturing techniques. So IMHO it's drummers who play on a kit that's actually designed for pop and rock that create the problems. Good drummers have two kits one for jazz.

+ 1,000,000!

That is SOOOOO true! It's really important to understand this. I think that playing quietly is even more difficult for drummers today because of this! Even small drumkits that are marketed for jazz today are incredibly loud and resonant. New improvements in drum heads make them even louder. I have a vintage 60's small drum kit at home in my rehearsal space and the difference in volume is very much noticable. It still has a really nice tone though, and occasionally drummers will ask me if they can borrow it for playing gigs in very small room sor quiet circumstances.
I hate to admit it, but to some extent it's not entirely the drummer's fault. Drums are just made to be louder today than they were in the old days.

In the very early years there were some unique innovative ideas that are no longer around. One of the first devices was the original Ampeg product, which incorporated a mic with the endpin. The mic was at the top end of the endpin up inside the bass. Of course most of us don't listen to a bass from inside it so the idea and concept and the device were soon out of favor. Ampeg as an amplification innovator, however, thrived and still makes some of the most desirable amplifiers for DB.

Contact crystal piezos would be another big innovation. Fishman (Fishman himself was a bassist) led the way in this technology and still has popular products today. Others are Underwood, K&K, the Realist, Upton Revolution Solo, and many more. Some mount in the bridge wing, others on the bridge itself, some under the bridge foot.

Miniature cardioid pattern condenser mics are probably the most desirable sound because it is the real sound of the air moving that gets amplified and there are several manufacturers of these small mics.

In the amplifier area, the latest technology front runner would have to be Acoustic Image amps. These have many features that make them especially suited for amplifying double basses. Check the website for all the innovations.

Before them, Walter Woods amplifiers were the top amps and some would probably argue that they still are.


Now to answer your specific questions:

- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)
Yes and No. It depends on the requirements of the performance.

- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)Acoustic Image Coda R Series III with a DPA 4021 Condenser combined with a K&K bassmax transducer (sometimes) and also (sometimes) and Ampeg PB212H cabinet. The AI amp has a direct out for interfacing with a PA if it needs to get really loud, like an outdoor sound stage. I play a few gigs with the mic only. Again it depends on the required volume. As volume goes up this is the gear progression: 1. acoustic only 2. Coda R with DPA mic only 3. add the K&K bassmax 4. add the Ampeg cab 5. Add the direct out to PA

- Is it the same live and in studio ? No, above describes live; In the studio if it is multitracked recording then two large diaphragm condenser mics are used, one close up, one further away.

- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ? The mic gets as close to the sound of the bass as possible, after that it is a compromise.

- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings) Not really. No.

- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else) I don't have to beat the bass to compete with the drums if it is amped

- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)It is better than it was several years ago when even the pros were sticking mics behind the tail piece at shows. Mini condenser mics are the bomb these days. Check the Ampeg endpin mic. That was the yesteryear technology.

- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass) I compose as if I were playing in an acoustic ensemble. I arrange as if I were playing in an acoustic ensemble. I play as if I am playing acoustic ensemble. It just gets louder if it needs too.

[QUOTE=Ric Vice;5257683].

+ 1,000,000!

That is SOOOOO true! It's really important to understand this. I think that playing quietly is even more difficult for drummers today because of this! Even small drumkits that are marketed for jazz today are incredibly loud and resonant. New improvements in drum heads make them even louder. I have a vintage 60's small drum kit at home in my rehearsal space and the difference in volume is very much noticable. It still has a really nice tone though, and occasionally drummers will ask me if they can borrow it for playing gigs in very small room sor quiet circumstances.
I hate to admit it, but to some extent it's not entirely the drummer's fault. Drums are just made to be louder today than they were in the old days.

I can see where you guys are coming from but great drummers can play with great touch on any drumset. I also don't think drums have changed bass amplification at all. Maybe the other way around. What influence did Bitches Brew have on drummers might be a better question.

Kobe Watkins (Sonny Rollins, Kurt Elling, Ryan Cohen) had a newer Sonar for a while. I had the good fortune to play with him a number of times. Playing with him was like a dream. He played with great touch but was still as aggressive as hell. Frank Parker (Kurt Elling, Orbert Davis) is the same. I don't know what his kit is but it is a newer kit with a 22" bass drum. You'd never know it. Again great finesse, great drive.

Bottom line I think great drummers can make any kit work.

Bottom line I think great drummers can make any kit work.

I agree. I play a lot in a club with a decent Yamaha jazz house kit (with a small Gretsch bass drum). Most of the drummers I play with there use it. The good ones make it work. The less sensitive ones overpower with it.

.

Well, actually there is quite a difference between today's modern drum kits and the ones players used in the 60' and 70's. They are a great deal louder because of improved construction and manufacturing techniques. So IMHO it's drummers who play on a kit that's actually designed for pop and rock that create the problems. Good drummers have two kits one for jazz.



I think the drummer and size of drum kits has had a big influence.. so my local Jazz clubs has a wide variety of really good Jazz acts.

But you can tell before the gig starts - whether it's going to be a fusion/type gig by looking at the drum kit set up!

I have noticed a trend amongst the younger UK Jazz drummers - like Seb Rochford - to go for very small drums when playing acoustic Jazz .

It's often a topic of dicussion at Jazz Summer school - where I have heard drum tutors comment along the lines of "how can he play Jazz on that?" when you see a particular "Rawk" style drum kit! :p

But that's an interesting area - a Summerschool setting - as you get to play with a few different drummers over the week - some where you don't need an amp and some where you are completely drowned out - it seems to equate with skill/talent - but I could be wrong!!?? ;)

- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)Yes I amplify about 90% of the time. It has allowed me to play the DB in contexts that I couldn't do so in the past.

- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? I have a full circle pickup I send to an AI Focus plugged into an EA VL208. I use a Sennheiser 409 on occasion. When using a PA I like to send the mic to the house and add the signal from the amp. Sometimes I just use the DI out from the amp.


- Is it the same live and in studio ?I don't do much studio work. When I have they ran a line off the pickup but rarely have used it in the mix. Mostly the sound comes from really good mics in the room.

- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?Depends on the gig. Rock gigs, Country gigs, Blues gigs , Latin gigs, the amp sound is important and how I sound through the amp is more low end prominent than if I'm doing a Jazz gig or a small no drummer ensemble. In that case I look for a more natural sound and add the mic.
Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? Yes. My setup has to work both acoustically and plugged in. I play both ways so it has to work equally well.
How has it helped/prevent your playing ?I dunno. I came from electric bass playing really loud in rock bands so I'm quite used to it. If anything for me learning to play acoustically was the challenge. I don't see amplification as a bad thing. I like it equally as playing acoustically or I wouldn't do it.
How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)It actually works now. It didn't used to work well at all. As I said above current amp technology allows me to use the DB in settings that I couldn't even 10 years ago. I like to take the DB into places it wouldn't work in historically. The electric bass guitar was born out of the inadequacy of the DB to keep up with electric instruments. In the last 50 years it has established itself as the go to instrument for bass in most popular music settings. It's only in the last 10 years the DB has returned to those settings and can be on equal footing with other electric instruments.

Personally, I like driving that bus.

How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)
It's irrelevant and inseparable at the same time.

I'm a musician. I'm influenced by the sound of the rain on my roof and the dog barking down the street.

I'm a musician. I'm influenced by the sound of the rain on my roof and the dog barking down the street.

Yeah - I hate that too - damn rain and damn dogs spoiling my quiet practice time!! :p

:hyper: thanks so far!
keep on coming!!!:bassist:

oh and by the way, I don't think it's the drummer fault. I've seen jojo mayer ( and he can be loud... see his nerve project) with a trio sax- bass- drum. and it was really nice...

I was at a workshop with Charlie Haden recently, we discussed all the different amplification gear and approaches, and he demonstrated his great sound to us, but with his amp set very quiet. Practically everybody in the room shouted simultaneously "Yeah, but they all sound great when they're set that quiet! How does it sound when you make it louder?" Charlie said "Why would I want to make it louder?" We all kind looked at each other, and somebody said "Well, to be heard over the band". Charlie said "Sorry, I don't understand - I always play just like this, and the band plays quiet enough so everybody can hear me."

Yeah, if you're Charlie Haden they do...

I would love to play upright in my current trio, but I'm afraid the guitar player is too loud. I have been playing a fretless electric with flats but it just isn't the same. I was thinking EUB, but if I played a real bass, I'd b ethe only one around here doing it. Might get me more gigs fo rthat reason alone.

I would love to play upright in my current trio, but I'm afraid the guitar player is too loud. I have been playing a fretless electric with flats but it just isn't the same. I was thinking EUB, but if I played a real bass, I'd b ethe only one around here doing it. Might get me more gigs fo rthat reason alone.That's exactly what happend to me. I had an ok gig schedule with the Fender Bass but as soon as I started playing the String Bass, and then people realized I could play it pretty loud through and amp the phone started ringing like crazy.

I think we're in agreement. Nowadays only the really exceptional drummers can play big modern kits with enough finesse and dynamics to make it work for unamplified instruments. Kobe and Frank are two great examples. I remember being in a rehersal with Frank many years ago and hearing him hit the kit pretty darn hard, too. He sounds great no matter what context he's put in. Lots of other drummers I know are very talented but just never learned how to play this way. I'm thinking of some really amazing gospel cats who sometimes sit in with a quintet I play in. They play amazing grooves and have tons of good ideas, but I gotta turn the amp up to make it work for me. I wish I could be the super baddass pro player who just turns the amp down and waits for the other musicians to adjust to the bass out of respect for the master- but I just don't get those kind of props.
What influence do you think Bitches Brew had on Drummers? It is an interesting question...

[QUOTE=gnergaard;5261542]

I can see where you guys are coming from but great drummers can play with great touch on any drumset. I also don't think drums have changed bass amplification at all. Maybe the other way around. What influence did Bitches Brew have on drummers might be a better question.

Kobe Watkins (Sonny Rollins, Kurt Elling, Ryan Cohen) had a newer Sonar for a while. I had the good fortune to play with him a number of times. Playing with him was like a dream. He played with great touch but was still as aggressive as hell. Frank Parker (Kurt Elling, Orbert Davis) is the same. I don't know what his kit is but it is a newer kit with a 22" bass drum. You'd never know it. Again great finesse, great drive.

Bottom line I think great drummers can make any kit work.

What influence do you think Bitches Brew had on Drummers? It is an interesting question...




or more generally... What influence did electric fusion have on jazz drumming? or What influence did rock have on jazz?

Supposedly Miles got the whole idea for 'fusion' when he saw Sly and the Family Stone.

It is the drummer's fault when the drummer is playing too loud in a small venue that is well adapted to acoustic instrument ensembles. It is not the drummer's fault if the show is in an arena and he has to have both a loud kit and microphones on all of his stuff.

I have seen and played with drummers who have a fantastic touch, and it just doesn't matter what the context is, they always have the right volume. And I have played with other drummers who just don't care to hear the other instruments. More and more, I am screening all of the musicians I play with by playing with them first in an acoustic only setting. If it is clear that they can not "find the mix" without amps, then I just don't play with them again. Experience tells me if they can't do it without amps, I don't want to go through the trouble of "with amps". I know it is a brutal approach, but the truth is the audience I want to play for doesn't want to listen to a brutal assault on the senses.

the truth is the audience I want to play for doesn't want to listen to a brutal assault on the senses.That audience is getting smaller and smaller year by year.

Dumber too.

Every musical genre is getting louder and simpler and more basic. Pretty soon well just fart into mics and the audience will go crazy.

disclaimer: I don't at all mean this in a negative or condescending way. This is more an alternate view for that sake of the young guys around.

More and more, I am screening all of the musicians I play with by playing with them first in an acoustic only setting. If it is clear that they can not "find the mix" without amps, then I just don't play with them again. Experience tells me if they can't do it without amps, I don't want to go through the trouble of "with amps". I know it is a brutal approach, but the truth is the audience I want to play for doesn't want to listen to a brutal assault on the senses.

I don't know if you play for a living or not (and it doesn't matter) but I would not recommend this line of reasoning to any young guy about to hit the scene and make a living at it. I have found that in order to make a living playing you have play as much as possible and in order to do that you have a good sound and good attitude in any situation. I run into players all the time that don't meet my ideal but I keep a good attitude about the gig and invariably have fun. Sometimes those gigs even turn out great. If you start weeding folks out pretty soon the list of people that you can call or call you gets very short.

If you start weeding folks out pretty soon the list of people that you can call or call you gets very short.There is a lot of truth to this. It takes a very established career to say "no" and continue to work day in and out. I can say no where I live now and still work but if I ever moved I'd have to say yes to every bulls... gig again for another 10 years or so.

I guess I'm not moving.

That audience is getting smaller and smaller year by year.

Dumber too.

Every musical genre is getting louder and simpler and more basic. Pretty soon well just fart into mics and the audience will go crazy.


Phil,
I'm laughing so hard there tears running out of my eyes. But there's a lot of truth in what you're saying too.

Ric

disclaimer: I don't at all mean this in a negative or condescending way. This is more an alternate view for that sake of the young guys around.



I don't know if you play for a living or not (and it doesn't matter) but I would not recommend this line of reasoning to any young guy about to hit the scene and make a living at it. I have found that in order to make a living playing you have play as much as possible and in order to do that you have a good sound and good attitude in any situation. I run into players all the time that don't meet my ideal but I keep a good attitude about the gig and invariably have fun. Sometimes those gigs even turn out great. If you start weeding folks out pretty soon the list of people that you can call or call you gets very short.

I can completely understand where you are coming from, fingers. But as soon as I started thinking differently about this, I was suddenly playing with better musicians in more rewarding situations and that goes for the money gigs as well.

I guess I am just getting older, and the value of experience is really kicking in. It is not that I have anything against loud;- twice a week I rehearse with a band where both the drummer and I wear earplugs to keep the guitars from deafening us. And that is one the most well mixed and dynamic bands I play with. Even though we are loud, no one is covering up the rest of the music and no one is playing as loud as they could. It's an EBG gig so there really is no limit. The drummer in that band is solid all the way around and has a great touch. It is a matter mostly of context. The venues that band plays at require "loud". Still, this weekend, the "loud" guitar player and I will be doing a far quieter duo set in a venue where that is the right dynamic, and we will still have some amps, just no where close to as loud as the ones we use in a rock-n-roll bar.

What I have noticed when I see really professional players performing is that they are able to mix properly on stage without the benefit of a PA or monitors. Seasoned players know how to do this at whatever volume level is appropriate. And I prefer to play with seasoned players because I know that is the context that I am going to enjoy the most, contribute the most to, and this is going to please the audience more as well. So the easiest screen I can use is an all acoustic setting where the dynamics are challenging. If that works out well, and all the players are listeners as well as players, great;- then we can turn it up because we are still all going to be listening. If I play with a group of people and there is someone in that group who is too loud, just about all the other players are bumming on that too. I've hung with situations like that before and it always ends in the band losing gigs because the volume escalates beyond what is right for a venue. So I just get out of that situation as soon as I see it developing and I don't waste the time and effort anymore. And I have to ask you, how can you have a good sound and a good attitude in a situation where you cannot hear the notes you are playing??? Your intonation is going to suffer a great deal. Is that what the audience wants to hear?

As far as busy goes, I have opportunities for more situations than I can handle, so weeding out is necessary at this point for me to keep improving. I find that playing with other people who have a mature attitude toward the music and less ego has given me a very long list of professional performers who appreciate and share the same point of view. And I expect the list of professionals I work with to get longer, not shorter.

I've never seen an A list jazz bassist in Kansas City play without an amp that I know of. I'm sure they did back in the days of Walter Page, but that's been awhile.
I caught Bob Bowman (Thad Jones, Toshiko Akyoshi, Karrin Allyson) last weekend and he was using an Ampeg Portabass into a 210 cabinet. Great player.
I envy you guys that can get everybody else INCLUDING the drunk at table four to whisper, but I haven't been able to pull it off.

ok so it's getting louder, no matter how or who's fault it is ( i'm not even sure it's only one's resposability:D). so now it seems that most people play with an amp; does the fact that you can compete with a loud drum or say a tenor sax (which can be quite loud as well - without amplification) allows you to develop different concepts or musical ideas? that's really where I'd like to go with my questions, and even if you answered (thanks a lot by the way) I'd like to really emphasize on that point
and I'm sorry for my english too, I'm not sure half the words I'm typping if they're right or not....
anyway keep going!:hyper::bassist:
thanks to all
yannick

I've never seen an A list jazz bassist in Kansas City play without an amp that I know of. I'm sure they did back in the days of Walter Page, but that's been awhile.
I caught Bob Bowman (Thad Jones, Toshiko Akyoshi, Karrin Allyson) last weekend and he was using an Ampeg Portabass into a 210 cabinet. Great player.
I envy you guys that can get everybody else INCLUDING the drunk at table four to whisper, but I haven't been able to pull it off.

Same at my local Jazz club - I only saw one player without an amp and they pointed a big mic at him and it worked OK through the pa - but my impression was that he was then relying very much on the mixing guy to get it right?

Another time I was in the audience at a quartet gig - trumpet, guitar, DB and drums - when the power went off. The venue put out candles and the band carried on - which sounded great - although the guitarist was redundant! :p

One thing that really changed to my ears was when bassists started using amplification in the recording studio. It was quite popular in the 70s and 80s to have that amplified upright sound...Eddie Gomez is a good example. Also the use of effects pedals. I liked it at the time as you could hear what the guy was playing better. Today I find it sounds very artificial and dates the recording.


My answers:

- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)

For gigs, always. For recording, never. Well, actually I did a demo once in a cheap studio where there was no iso booth so I used the pickup and a DI.

- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)

Pickup only, no mike. On both my basses (one gut, one steel) I have piezo transducers and on the steel I also have a magnetic pickup. The mag pickup lets me play at rock band levels when needed but doesn't sound very natural.

Amps vary: SWR Baby Blue, Walter Woods head with Bergantino HT112, AMP BH420 head with EAW VB125. On gigs with supplied backline, whatever is provided. On some lower volume gigs I'll DI into the PA and rely on the monitors. I always use some sort of preamp (Fishman or Baggs) to give me volume and EQ control.

- Is it the same live and in studio ?

No, I always just mike the bass in the studio

- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?

I try to get as close to an acoustic sound as I can, but I will take advantage of the amplified sound for particular effects.

- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)

Only feedback reduction...I keep the tailpiece dampened with foam and the strings below the bridge dampened with a velcro loop.

- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)

If I can hear myself I can play better ;)

- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)

I found the speaker is most important, the flatter the response in the mids and lows the less apt to feedback or color the tone of the instrument. A well-voiced midrange EQ to dial out "honk" is also a requirement for me.

Pickups have gotten much better over the years. less muddy, more feedback resistant.

- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)

None

I can't think of a single Chicago A list straight ahead jazz player that doesn't use an amp for most ensemble stuff. For that matter I can't think of one that uses only a mic either. Most guys have pickups or mic/pickup combos. I seen ampless stuff with duos with a piano player in a hotel lounge or maybe a restaurant gig were the band is intended as background but never in a situation where the band is entertainment. Maybe Eric Hochberg or Mike Arnopol, both Chicago veterans and TBDB contributors know someone.

The Question:

"does the fact that you can compete with a loud drum or say a tenor sax (which can be quite loud as well - without amplification) allows you to develop different concepts or musical ideas?"

If it is a duo with a piano player where I go without an amp then I don't think I play differently. If I am in a band though I have to REALLY dig in if I don't have adequate amplification. This definitely cuts down on the ideas I can execute. I try not to let an amp change the way I play and the other way around. I use the amp so I don't have to change the way I play.

One note. I think an amp is a necessary tool for the jazz DB on today's scene. A good tone is important. How you achieve it doesn't matter. I am an audio engineer too so I am a knob tweaker by trade. I have to remove that temptation when I am playing bass. I just try to keep my setup as simple as possible and try not to forget about it during the gig and let my amp support my acoustic sound as much as possible. If the leader says 'turn up' I do.

AMP BH420 head with EAW VB125.
Damn, are you old or something? I had one of those AMP things right when they came out in early 80something....

If the leader says 'turn up' I do.That never happens to me.

ok, Im sure somebody has something to add here....??? mr. ed fuqua?

Yes?

Yes?Go back to sleep.

I found this quote from that Ron Carter interview interesting. I've run into a bunch of older cats that were playing before pickups were very good that don't understand not using a pickup live now that they have improved.

Here's the quote:

What do you think of bassists who use only a mic without a pickup?

I think they are making a mistake. They want to sound like we did in the ’50s, but I don’t know any bassist who played back then who would want to go back to that setup. They had no chance to be heard—and 50 years later, bass players who prefer that setup still can’t be heard. Once the drummer picks up some sticks, the bass player’s sound is inaudible. How can that be acceptable to him? Or to the bandleader’s manager, or to anyone who’s concerned with the group’s sound? What’s wrong with that picture?

I didn't see Rufus Reid's name mentioned yet in this thread. Maybe he would correspond with you. To show him you're serious, you could look at his book / DVD The Evolving Bassist and then maybe ask him something specific about it.

I think Ray Brown gives a quick high-level overview of how right hand technique evolved from early jazzers in a video from a master class he did for the BBC. The video's in nine parts on YouTube, and you can get to it from here (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347213).

I think this is also the video where he also talks about the amp being an extension of your bass' sound, as opposed to using the amp to help create your sound, something like that.

I found this quote from that Ron Carter interview interesting.

While having nothing but respect for Ron Carter and his contribution to this music, when he first got to NYC he got the nickname "The Phantom", from the comic strip, the subtitle of which was "Ghost Who Walks". I think that article was from the ISB magazine and was (somewhat) in response to the previous issue's article by Neal Miner (whom I've heard play in a variety of situations and have NEVER had a problem hearing) encouraging young players to explore playing without amplification.

I think that the only "thing wrong wth this picture" is that Ron has made up his mind about what he thinks before ever hearing a note that somebody plays.

The quote is from Bass Player.

http://www.bassplayer.com/article/ron-carter-/Sep-03/814

I'm not sure if I agree with him but I thought that quote was interesting because I have heard almost the same thing verbatim from other older guys that have lived through the days when bass amplification was not what it is today.

I didn't see Rufus Reid's name mentioned yet in this thread. Maybe he would correspond with you. To show him you're serious, you could look at his book / DVD The Evolving Bassist and then maybe ask him something specific about it.

I think Ray Brown gives a quick high-level overview of how right hand technique evolved from early jazzers in a video from a master class he did for the BBC. The video's in nine parts on YouTube, and you can get to it from here (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347213).

I think this is also the video where he also talks about the amp being an extension of your bass' sound, as opposed to using the amp to help create your sound, something like that.

Oh dude thanks for hipping me to the Ray Brown thing. He's so ****ing deep. That cat had so much music ,,,I just love youtube, a lesson with Ray Brown (a ****ing lesson with Ray Brown and for free too)....then he gets funky too....and that thing at the beginning where he goes thru the history of pizz and slap. And then the bit about drummers not needing bass players hanging on their coat tails. Thats choice Just ****ing great...sept for the terrified students, wish they had been playing at a higher level...

what I meant is that I would be quite happy if ed could answer those quesitons that started the thread. ok so, mr. fuqua, could you answer those question?
thanks:hyper:
yannick

-
1. Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)
2.What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)
3.Is it the same live and in studio ?
4.Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?
5.Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)
6.How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)
7.How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now?
8.Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)
9.How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass).
1. It entirely depends on the situation; that is there are gigs I do without any amplification, there are gigs I do that I put a mic on the instrument and send that through a PA system, there are gigs I use an amp and a pickup on, there are gigs I use an amp and a pickup and put a mic on the instrument and send that through the PA system. It all depends on what I need to do to get the sound of my bass into the house. THAT'S the ONLY criteria.
2. I have a Full Circle pickup, a Sennheiser MD -409 mic, a Walter Woods amplifier and a GK 1-12 cabinet and a Polytone 1-12 cabinet w/a JBL speaker in it. But all of that information is available in my profile.
3. No, in the studio the bass is mic'ed with whatever the engineer/producer suggests using. I never run a direct line.
4. I like the way my bass sounds, that's why I play it. Whay would I want to sound like something else?
5. Nope, I'd say it was the other way around. My setup, (gut like strings, wanting to preserve as much of the acoustic sound as possible etc.) has an influence over my amplification choices. But again, I'm going for a specific SOUND, not a specific set up. I don't play with high action to play with high action or play with low action because it's easier to play or whatever. I play with whatever action, strings, approach I need to get the sound I'm hearing in my head.
6. I would say that amplification was an impediment to my developing a good physical approach when I was beginning to play bass. Why work on getting a good sound when all I have to do is twist some knobs? Well, that doesn't work and (like so many others) I had to go through a LONG process of acquisition - new amp, new strings, new EQ devices, new speaker cabinets, new bass, etc etc etc - before I realized that it's not the gear that makes the sound. As an adjunct to working on the physical approach to get a big projecting acoustic sound, you also need to work on a number of conceptual approaches - expectation of pitch, hearing WHAT you want to play before you play it, hearing with clarity. It was personally surprising how much projection you get when you are actually hearing the pitches you want to play and knowing where those pitches are on the fingerboard. When you aren't sure of what note you're going to be hearing when you sound it means you don't really hit it with a lot of confidence. Hearing what you want to play and knowing where it is makes right and left hand coordination MUCh easier, resulting in a stronger sound.
7. Don't ask me, I don't build amplifiers. I've got to say that cats I heard back when all there was was Polytone STILL got great acoustic sounds. If you get a good, warm, projecting acoustic sound, you can amplify that through pretty much ANYTHING.
8. Well, see that answers above. The thing that has gotten me to a point that I have any kind of viable sound on the instrument has nothing to do with amplification. The fact that I get an amplified sound that projects well, is warm, woody and acoustic sounding has nothing to do with amplification.
9. Not in the least.

thanks, that's what I meant!

:. here are the questions:
- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)
- What is your current gear for the amplification of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)
- Is it the same live and in studio ?
- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?
- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)
- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)
- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)
- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)



Hi Yannick,

Since Ed finally answered, I can answer.

Listen to Ed.

Okay, here are my 2 cents:

1. I amplify my bass with the WDR Big Band with a Glockenklang Bass Art top, and a 1 x 15 cabinet with a tweeter. I add a 2 x 10 cabinet if I am going to play electric. I use this amp because it sounds great, and I don't have to carry it. If I DID have to carry it, I probably wouldn't use it. For smaller gigs, where I have to carry my amp, I use a Gallien Kruger MBII. I usually amplify the bass with a stink-normal Fishman pickup with the Fishman pre-amp. I use this pickup because it sounds completely piezo flat -- I can add any artificial eq that I want, and it takes very little quirky wood sound from the bass. That said, I also use the Full-Circle and the Schertler DYN-B quite often--when I do want the quirky wood sounds.

2. To record and amplify the bass live, the WDR uses a Schoeps MK41, and the Neumann TLM170, and the pickup sound. On my gigs, when I use the mic, usually it is an AMT clamped on the bass.

3. In the WDR studio, they take the 2 mic signals and the pickup signal. I am baffled (physically, not mentally), but not in a separate booth. When I record for others, I just ask for their best mic for bass. (I ask the engineer and let him do his job). I also PREFER to be in an iso booth when I record. I can get a great sound, and then tweak the sound to infinity afterwards. However, I do record live a lot with everyone on the same stage with little separation.

4. Amplification is part of the sound when I use a pickup. If I just play live with a mic (which I also do sometimes), then it is still an amplified bass sound, albeit a little more true and delicate to the actual acoustic sound. For example, I played an arco solo in front of the big band last weekend only using one mic. The mic was very hot, which was nice, considering there were 14 horns and 3 rhythm behind me. The bass sound was cranked--it sounded like a a bass, but I could play things over the top of a big band that I could never have pulled off without the massive microphone support.

Furthermore, I use amplification to adjust for things in a hall or room that are different -- I can add a whole lot of mids or treble -- or roll those frequencies off depending on the situation. I use the amp to fine-tune the sound in the room to serve the band.

5. With a louder playing situation, I can play a lot of more delicate things when I am amplified. I do not mind playing without an amp -- I do it sometimes with bands -- but then I adjust my technique to play things that will actually be heard and make a difference.

6. I think the array of amplifiers and pickups has gotten to a point where we all have a choice of a lot of great products. Some products work better on some basses and for some players and for some types of music. The big problem is still: garbage in, garbage out. If you do not have a good sound going into the pickup and amp, then there is no way it will sound good coming out. I think that is what Ron C is talking about in the BP article that was linked in one of the posts here.

7. Amplification has changed a lot with regard to compositions and orchestration. The double bass can now play many of the functions that the electric bass or the electric guitar serve—all because of amplification. Now, that does NOT mean the amplification automatically equals good music. We still have to play musically, and with an amp, we can do a lot of damage to the music. Back in the day, a mediocre bass player would not hold back a great band—because you did not hear him anyway. A friend of mine (bass player) used to always say "No band was ever ruined by a bass player you couldn't hear."
Or,
It's like Spiderman says: "With great power comes great responsibility."

So to sum up my long-winded post: I play with and without amplification—I love both ways of playing—and I try and make the best music I can every time I pick up the bass.

By the way, Yannick— I'm playing in Sankt Gallen on Feb 23.

Hi Yannick,

Since Ed finally answered, I can answer.



I thought you had the intro?

I thought you had the intro?
Drummer's got it. That's why it sucked.

- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)

No, not at all. Bass through an amp sounds bad.

- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)

Fingers and the right forarm

- Is it the same live and in studio ?

yes

- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?

From the time I did use amps and from the people I have observed I don't think you can have 'the sound of the bass only louder'. The amp changes your playing. It is a case of the Tail wagging the Dog. Either you are a 'No amp' Player or you are an 'amp' player.


- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)

No, I set my bass up for acoustic playing only. I play a big bass with med action (about 10 MM under the G). I use spirocore E and A and Evah D and G

- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)

There is exactly one way to get the 'classic' bass tone, and that is to move a lot of string which moves a lot of top which moves a lot of air. You have to use the side of your finger and a whole lot of Forarm. You will never sound like Ray Brown or Paul Chambers though a cable.


- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)



- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)


I specialize in traditional jazz (from the mid 1920's through about 1940) but I do a lot of Bebop work because that is what most of the calls to work are for. I am playing an un-amplified instrument in a genre that used that instrument un-amplified. Here is what I can tell you, there are three things that will get in the way of your sound:

1) drummers. They can mask your sound or make you sound great. There is no excuse for a bad drummer; if he plays to loud don't work with him. Because of the range of the bass no other instrument will interfere with your sound (unless the piano player wants to be a jerk). You might have the loudest tenor player in the world but he won't cover you up. The balance may be out of whack but he won't cover you up.

2) The room. If you are playing in a especially loud room your sound can get swallowed up. This is no excuse to use amplification. Almost all of my gigs are Bar/Restaurant/lounge/cocktail party type gigs where you are hired as ambiance or background music. If everyone is talking and glasses are clinking and your bass is being drowned out, it doesn’t mean you need to be louder, it means people are having a good time. It doesn’t matter if it is a coffee shop or a concert hall, don't compete with the audience for volume, you will always loose (especially if you are louder, think about that one)

And when it comes to rooms, the wall is your friend, the Corner is your best friend.

3) Your bass. I know several guys locally who have bought basses between $6 and $12K that I have tried and they have the acoustic response of a 1/2 size plywood with old t-shirts stuffed in the f holes. I have a theory on basses (that may not be popular here) that they all sound the same; especially when they are played exclusively pizz. That being said when I went shopping for a bass earlier this year the number one criteria was VOLUME! It doesn’t matter if your bass is carved, made by 'Juzak' or is a vintage 'Kay', cost $35K, if the builder has won awards.

Bottom line, if your bass won't cut it acoustically with a otherwise acoustic jazz group you have a bad bass. I have owned 2 basses that have great acoustic sounds (and have tried dozens [hundreds?] that fall flat). The first was a 5/8 sized 150/170 year old Gamba shaped bass that has been attributed to the French school. That bass roared and you knew it when you played it. Unfortunately the top was very thin and cracked every other month or so. The other bass I own now is a Laminated Panormo copy (no, not an Upton). This bass sounds enormous but it throws the sound out so when you are playing it you can't really hear yourself well but if you are standing across the room the bass is like gangbusters!

Sorry if I rambled on. Also, if you are a fan of Lafarro, Ron Carter, George Mraz, NHOP, ect then obviously these comments weren't directed at you. I am a traditional player (Slam Stewart is the Alpha and Omega of bass playing to me) so I don't understand the whole contemporary bass thing; but I have also meet my share of young guys who say they want to sound like Paul Chambers when their setup lends itself to George Mraz. Sure, you can play louder but at what cost? To me the music becomes less intimate and the bass became neutered.

JYS

I appreciate your dedication to the acoustic sound of the instrument, Junkyard. I have just a couple of comments before I have to go play (no amp, tonight).

Either you are a 'No amp' Player or you are an 'amp' player.
JYS

I play often without an amp, and often with an amp. So, I guess I am a card-carrying member of both camps. I know quite a few players who will play either/or with/without, depending on the situation. I don't think it has to be either/or. It's fine if it is—a lot of players only want to do one thing—but a lot of players can do either/or amp/no-amp, depending on what seems right for the music.



You will never sound like Ray Brown or Paul Chambers though a cable.


JYS

I had the honor of playing on the same stage with Ray on several occasions—for example, a concert with the now-defunct American Jazz Orchestra in Cooper Union Hall (large hall) with a big band where we alternated sets. Neither one of us used an amp. I played with him with the WDR Big Band in Cologne where we both used an amp. All of the times I saw him with his own trio, he used an amp—except with Superbass, where they just used mics. Those were all performances from about 1980 onward until he passed away.

Of course, he always sounded like Ray Brown—and he was certainly playing bebop in a big way.



Sorry if I rambled on. Also, if you are a fan of Lafarro, Ron Carter, George Mraz, NHOP, ect then obviously these comments weren't directed at you. I am a traditional player (Slam Stewart is the Alpha and Omega of bass playing to me) so I don't understand the whole contemporary bass thing; but I have also meet my share of young guys who say they want to sound like Paul Chambers when their setup lends itself to George Mraz. Sure, you can play louder but at what cost? To me the music becomes less intimate and the bass became neutered.

JYS

Of course, LaFaro never used an amp—but he had a big sound. He was definitely putting a lot of precision-guided energy into his r.h. attack. I think the style of the music is not dictated by the amp—we either get a good sound or not—with an amp or without an amp. The player controls the amp, the player controls the bass, the player controls the sound.

Keep swinging . . .

John

These two quotes sum it up IMHO. It think it is cool that guys like Junkyard and Silversorcerer are dedicated to staying strictly acoustic. I wish I could sometimes. There are so many gigs I do where I can't see how it would work though.

When it comes to working in as many situations as possible I think Ed and John, who have both had long and successful careers, hit the nail on the head.


1. It entirely depends on the situation; that is there are gigs I do without any amplification, there are gigs I do that I put a mic on the instrument and send that through a PA system, there are gigs I use an amp and a pickup on, there are gigs I use an amp and a pickup and put a mic on the instrument and send that through the PA system. It all depends on what I need to do to get the sound of my bass into the house. THAT'S the ONLY criteria.


I play often without an amp, and often with an amp. So, I guess I am a card-carrying member of both camps. I know quite a few players who will play either/or with/without, depending on the situation. I don't think it has to be either/or. It's fine if it is—a lot of players only want to do one thing—but a lot of players can do either/or amp/no-amp, depending on what seems right for the music.

thanks everyone,
I'm about to ask the bg names like patitucci and mcbride.
However, in the list of players I'd like to ask, I couldn't find the contact info. Please, if anybody know those adress, PM them to me or post them or whatever but let me know, please....
so the ones I don't have are:

Gary Peacock
Reggie Workman
François Moutin
Larry Grenadier
Dan Bergund (bass player of E.S.T.)

also, do you know if I'd get any answer from adress like
" management @ name.com " ?

thanks again for your help!!
yannick

I can't think of a single Chicago A list straight ahead jazz player that doesn't use an amp for most ensemble stuff. For that matter I can't think of one that uses only a mic either. Most guys have pickups or mic/pickup combos. I seen ampless stuff with duos with a piano player in a hotel lounge or maybe a restaurant gig were the band is intended as background but never in a situation where the band is entertainment. Maybe Eric Hochberg or Mike Arnopol, both Chicago veterans and TBDB contributors know someone.


No, I can't think of anyone in town. I heard Eric Revis a few years ago at the Green Mill and he had two Shure 58s on one f hole, one above the other. He was really cranked in the system and sounded very good, but still like an amplified bass. He is also one of the hardest working guys I've seen. Maybe he has trouble hearing himself on the stand.

Some time in the eighties, I saw Freddie Hubbard at a now defunct Chicago club called "The Bulls". The night of the gig, the electricity was out in the club, so the band played unamplified. It was really nice to hear jazz played acoustically for a change. The only downside was that I could hardly hear Mike Formanek's bass, and this was a small club with a very low ceiling and I was sitting 15 feet away.

I'll take amplification any day over that. :) Personally, I just don't enjoy playing without an amp in most gig situations. I just can't hear myself well enough and I'm sure the listeners can't either. My basses are probably average volume-wise acoustically. Maybe Arnold Schnitzer style upper bout soundholes would help, but I don't feel compelled enough to play acoustically to take that step. Put me on any band with a drummer, aggressive piano player, electric instruments and horns, and I want an amp. Even on a duo gig with a piano or a guitar in a noisy room benefits from an amp. I want to hear myself and want to be heard.

One more resource might be Lynn Seaton. If his name has already been mentioned in this thread, I apologize.

You may or may not know he has his own 'Ask a Pro!' forum here on TB.

Here's one post (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3675832&postcount=16) where he describes his set up.

No, I can't think of anyone in town. I heard Eric Revis a few years ago at the Green Mill and he had two Shure 58s on one f hole, one above the other. He was really cranked in the system and sounded very good, but still like an amplified bass. He is also one of the hardest working guys I've seen. Maybe he has trouble hearing himself on the stand.

Some time in the eighties, I saw Freddie Hubbard at a now defunct Chicago club called "The Bulls". The night of the gig, the electricity was out in the club, so the band played unamplified. It was really nice to hear jazz played acoustically for a change. The only downside was that I could hardly hear Mike Formanek's bass, and this was a small club with a very low ceiling and I was sitting 15 feet away.

I'll take amplification any day over that. :) Personally, I just don't enjoy playing without an amp in most gig situations. I just can't hear myself well enough and I'm sure the listeners can't either. Maybe Arnold Schnitzer style upper bout soundholes would help, but I don't feel compelled enough to play acoustically to take that step. Put me on any band with a drummer, aggressive piano player, electric instruments and horns, and I want an amp. Even on a duo gig with a piano or a guitar in a noisy room benefits from an amp. I want to hear myself and want to be heard.


Only example I've heard was a Howard Levy performance at Martyr's here in Chicago. Bassist was Larry Cohut. The ensemble didn't have a drummer- two acoustic guitars, bass and harmonica. Martyr's is a big room, so all the instruments were mic-ed through the house. I heard bass, but not as much as I wanted to. I was still impressed and tried to ask Larry a few questions after the show about his bass, set up, etc. without being annoying. I didn't get the impression from him that his bass is especially loud, or that he changed the action or anything like that. I don't think that the mic worked very well, either- martyrs is a tough room to mic a bass ion because of the 'rock and roll' style subwoofers situated under the stage. Lots of feedback issues.
If I had been on that gig I would have tried to use an amp. Getting good sound through a mic and a PA can be a real pain.

I specialize in traditional jazz (from the mid 1920's through about 1940) but I do a lot of Bebop work because that is what most of the calls to work are for. I am playing an un-amplified instrument in a genre that used that instrument un-amplified. Here is what I can tell you, there are three things that will get in the way of your sound:

3) Your bass. I know several guys locally who have bought basses between $6 and $12K that I have tried and they have the acoustic response of a 1/2 size plywood with old t-shirts stuffed in the f holes. I have a theory on basses (that may not be popular here) that they all sound the same; especially when they are played exclusively pizz. That being said when I went shopping for a bass earlier this year the number one criteria was VOLUME! It doesn’t matter if your bass is carved, made by 'Juzak' or is a vintage 'Kay', cost $35K, if the builder has won awards.

Bottom line, if your bass won't cut it acoustically with a otherwise acoustic jazz group you have a bad bass. I have owned 2 basses that have great acoustic sounds (and have tried dozens [hundreds?] that fall flat). The first was a 5/8 sized 150/170 year old Gamba shaped bass that has been attributed to the French school. That bass roared and you knew it when you played it. Unfortunately the top was very thin and cracked every other month or so. The other bass I own now is a Laminated Panormo copy (no, not an Upton). This bass sounds enormous but it throws the sound out so when you are playing it you can't really hear yourself well but if you are standing across the room the bass is like gangbusters!



I'm not so sure about that last point and I tend to believe that volume can be more down to the player than the bass.

I have two kinds of real world situations that lead me to this belief - so firstly I am a big Jazz fan and go to gigs and hear many different bassists in the same room..with similar basses, but varying voleme.

But more conclusively for me - each year for the last 8 or so I have been to Jazz Summerschool and end up in a room with maybe up to a dozen DB players of varying skills with varying basses - from the cheapest to pretty expensive!

So - OK there are the students - all unamped - and then there are the tutors who are excellent Jazz pros with great technique.

On many occasions I have heard a Tutor take up a bass that was played by a student and sounded quiet, weak and unfocused - only for it to sound loud and clear under the hands of the Tutor!! :)

I agree with Bruce to an extent. It seems Junkyard is talking more about volume than tone too. If that is the case then I think there is little correlation between price and volume.


Fingers and the right forarm


I'd be curious to hear more about this. I've been working hard for the past few months on getting a bigger sound. In my research I've heard several guys talk about using the weight of your entire arm starting at the shoulder. It's working for me but maybe I'm working too hard.

I'd be curious to hear more about this. I've been working hard for the past few months on getting a bigger sound. In my research I've heard several guys talk about using the weight of your entire arm starting at the shoulder. It's working for me but maybe I'm working too hard.Same here. In watching some videos of Ray Brown on Youtube and in the four instructional videos he produced, sometimes I see what I perceive as very little activity or movement of the forearm and upper arm. Looks almost like it's all hand and fingers doing the work in some passages.

Or maybe because of his ability and decades of experience he just makes it look effortless.

With many apologies to 'Just Me' (I am really not trying to hijack your thread); I tried to work up a brief rundown of how I do it.

I spent about an hour trying to explain and I don't think I can in words. Watch these 2 videos for excellent examples of how you get your whole arm into sound production:

Video one is Paul Chambers, watch from :45 to 1:05; 2:15 to 2:55 and from 6:35 out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBwrv6RtvtA

Note how his forarm, wrist and hand all work together. His arm above the elbow is just along for the ride.

Video 2 is Eddie Jones with the Basie Band, note his upper arm gets in on the action also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4-ZBQ_UYgM

Also note that although both men are mic'ed they are not amplified in the sense of 'sound re-enforcement'.

Here is a very brief rundown on the high points of the technique:

1) Bass height is critical. Your right arm has to be extended and your right hand has to be right at the bottom of the finger board. I play my bass with no end-pin out when I play pizz. It is to low for me to play arco but it is perfect for me to play pizz (I am 5'6" and have long arms I guess). Paul Chambers had the right size arms, but not everyone will. Don't assume the height you use when playing orchestrally is the right height for playing a jazz date.

2) you have to have at least medium action (I have around 10MM under my G). You have to be able to hook onto the string and really pull on it

3) ONLY use your index finger to pluck, the middle finger works with your index to strengthen it. You pluck with the side of your finger (about 3 inches of meat get string contact on my finger). NOT THE TIP< NEVER THE TIP

4) This is the hard part. Imagine your string is a string on an archery bow. You grab the string with your fingers but the 'pull' doesn’t come from your fingers. With an Archery bow you draw with your shoulder and elbow, with the bass you draw with your wrist. To do this, grab on to the string (with the side of your index finger), now in one motion drop your forarm, and rotate your wrist back (up towards you). Bring the string back with your hand. Think that you want to pull the string all the way until it touches the string behind it (pull the G like you want it to touch the D). You have to determine when to let go but the harder you pull the more the string will vibrate and the more sound you will have the potential of getting.

4a) This is a side note, you can tell how hard the guys on the videos are pulling by watching the string behind the one they are playing. For example if they are walking up the G string, watch the D for how much it is defecting when their index finger hits it after releasing the G string. That's right, they are pulling the SNOT out of the strings. Don't use the cop-out that they are playing gut, I have simalar deflection with steel strings.



I think if you study the above videos you will come out with more that I could ever describe in words. Oh, and find a few local big bands that need a bass player and leave your amp at home.

If you have further questions feel free to PM me, I don't want to steer this thread to far away from the subject

JYS

Thanks for the above. Here's another heavy plucker with big forearm action, Basie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpPehptG3yw&feature=related) again.

JYD - I'd have to disagree, the approach you describe put me well on my way to Carpal Tunnel/tendonitis. By NOT using my wrist and instead having the whole of my shoulder and arm (left and right) involved has gotten me to a point where I can get a bigger and more projecting sound and stay much more relaxed than I did when I was "pulling the SNOT" out of the strings and just using my wrist and forearms. My sound is much warmer too.

I do the large majority of my gigs without amplification, the only way to keep that up over the long haul without damaging yourself is to stay relaxed and free of tension.

Only example I've heard was a Howard Levy performance at Martyr's here in Chicago. Bassist was Larry Cohut. The ensemble didn't have a drummer- two acoustic guitars, bass and harmonica. Martyr's is a big room, so all the instruments were mic-ed through the house. I heard bass, but not as much as I wanted to.

I'm surprised as Martyr's generally has good sound, a powerful system and a good sound man. If you heard Larry Kohut on his new bass, it has really strong acoustic volume as it is a larger orchestral instrument. I haven't heard that band live, but they would certainly be a good example of a situation where you'd think mics on everyone should do the trick.

Last time I played Martyrs I was very pleased with the sound. The soundman kept the stage volume low which is my ideal. He had a line a mic from me but I got lots of compliments in the sound. He really seemed to know how to deal with DB. The subs are 'under' the stage in that they are around the outsides of the stage pointed out as opposed to some places where they actually build the stage on top of the subs (beat kitchen, subterrean, the note).

well so far I've had two answers: chuck israels and hein van de geyn.
mr. israels is really about playing acoustic and mr. van de geyn use an amp, to hear the bass but only louder...
if you want, I'll keep posting the answers I get from those masters! (if I have more....)
thanks guys
yannick

With many apologies to 'Just Me' (I am really not trying to hijack your thread); I tried to work up a brief rundown of how I do it.

I spent about an hour trying to explain and I don't think I can in words. Watch these 2 videos for excellent examples of how you get your whole arm into sound production:

Video one is Paul Chambers, watch from :45 to 1:05; 2:15 to 2:55 and from 6:35 out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBwrv6RtvtA

Note how his forarm, wrist and hand all work together. His arm above the elbow is just along for the ride.

Video 2 is Eddie Jones with the Basie Band, note his upper arm gets in on the action also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4-ZBQ_UYgM

Also note that although both men are mic'ed they are not amplified in the sense of 'sound re-enforcement'.

Here is a very brief rundown on the high points of the technique:

1) Bass height is critical. Your right arm has to be extended and your right hand has to be right at the bottom of the finger board. I play my bass with no end-pin out when I play pizz. It is to low for me to play arco but it is perfect for me to play pizz (I am 5'6" and have long arms I guess). Paul Chambers had the right size arms, but not everyone will. Don't assume the height you use when playing orchestrally is the right height for playing a jazz date.

2) you have to have at least medium action (I have around 10MM under my G). You have to be able to hook onto the string and really pull on it

3) ONLY use your index finger to pluck, the middle finger works with your index to strengthen it. You pluck with the side of your finger (about 3 inches of meat get string contact on my finger). NOT THE TIP< NEVER THE TIP

4) This is the hard part. Imagine your string is a string on an archery bow. You grab the string with your fingers but the 'pull' doesn’t come from your fingers. With an Archery bow you draw with your shoulder and elbow, with the bass you draw with your wrist. To do this, grab on to the string (with the side of your index finger), now in one motion drop your forarm, and rotate your wrist back (up towards you). Bring the string back with your hand. Think that you want to pull the string all the way until it touches the string behind it (pull the G like you want it to touch the D). You have to determine when to let go but the harder you pull the more the string will vibrate and the more sound you will have the potential of getting.

4a) This is a side note, you can tell how hard the guys on the videos are pulling by watching the string behind the one they are playing. For example if they are walking up the G string, watch the D for how much it is defecting when their index finger hits it after releasing the G string. That's right, they are pulling the SNOT out of the strings. Don't use the cop-out that they are playing gut, I have simalar deflection with steel strings.



I think if you study the above videos you will come out with more that I could ever describe in words. Oh, and find a few local big bands that need a bass player and leave your amp at home.

If you have further questions feel free to PM me, I don't want to steer this thread to far away from the subject

JYS

It is a very touchy subject, and I do respect the guys that have made the choice to play fully acoustic. I don't have a problem with this at all. Its not going to work for everyone though. I have played several unamplified gigs, and there is something special about the sound and feel when you play this way. However you have to be playing with musicians that are very aware of the sound/volume of the whole group and play accordingly. If you watch the Basie video above you can see that the drummer is playing pretty lightly during the solo. You also need an instrument that projects.

I think that players that have learned(or had to) play this way still have that strong pulse when playing with an amplifier(in many cases).