I'm building a fanned fret 5 string starting with a Gecko Wide 5 neck from warmoth (I've ordered it fretless).

I'm planning a 37" scale fo the B string and a 32" for the G with the perpendicular point at around the 7th fret.

I should probably mention it's my first build, so I won't be offended if you point out anything obvious. I do have a really good understanding of the physics involved though, so you don't need to dumb anything down for me either. ;)

I'm trying to decide how to anchor the strings at the bottom of the fretboard. Since I'm waiting for the neck right now, this is all just in my head, but I can think of a few possible ways to do it, and problems with each.

1. I could use an angled nut.
Since The fretboard is already glued on, with a standard square edge on it, this would either mean cutting an angled chunk off (scares me a bit), or sticking the nut on top of the fretboard (routing in a shallow slot for it possibly), while leaving the end of the board square. This might be a bit ugly though I think.

2. I could use a zero fret.
This appeals more to me asthetically, since it really wouldn't look much different than normal. The problems I see is that with the nut up at the end of the fingerboard, there will be quite a long distance (1.5" eyeballed") between the nut and the zero fret at the G string. Will this cause any problems? is there enough break angle in a fret's height at 1.5"? If so, would I need an additional guide to keep the string from sliding sideways on the zero fret? If not, I suppose I could cut slots in the fretboard which would act as a nut to keep the stings in place, and also allow more break angle.

Also, I'm afraid that with the zero fret, downforce from the break angle might give the string a tendancy to bend "downhill" on the fret, pulling the G string (furthest from nut at zero fret) towards the edge of the fretboard.

Any advice?

Also, I hate to have to ask this, but could you also say in your replies if you've actually tried these things before giving advice? Feel free to reply even if you haven't, but let me know whether I'm hearing your thoughts on the subject, or your experience. :)

Thanks,
-Nick

Havn't built a fanned fret yet, although my next one will be.

I'm pretty sure that using a zero fret will work fine. I don't think you'll have issues for break angle but wait for a more experienced opinion.

But one thing I have noticed is that a 5 inch fan for a 5 string is very large. Larger than I've ever heard of someone doing. The most I've heard of is about 3/4 inch per string. A 37-32 for a 5 string might be somewhat difficult to play.

Havn't built a fanned fret yet, although my next one will be.

I'm pretty sure that using a zero fret will work fine. I don't think you'll have issues for break angle but wait for a more experienced opinion.

But one thing I have noticed is that a 5 inch fan for a 5 string is very large. Larger than I've ever heard of someone doing. The most I've heard of is about 3/4 inch per string. A 37-32 for a 5 string might be somewhat difficult to play.

Wow... + 1,000,000,000. 5 inchs for a 5 string is quite big. using a zero fret would work, at least your perpendicular fret is the 7th, it would be bad if it would be the 9th. Still... you might have problems with the angle on the G string between the zero fret and nut, if you see what I mean. you might have to sand down the top part of the board (between zero and nut) to allow a good enough breaking angle. Thats what I did with mine. Ive never heard of a multi scale without a zero fret actually. Id be curious to know if it exists. I went with 3" on my sixer and I find its kinda excessive.

There would definitely be sideplay with the G and D strings because of the gap between nut and zero fret.

I like your idea about cutting a trench through the nut and top of the fretboard until the zero fret to guide the strings. make sure the slots are *slightly* wider so the strings don't bind in it and not too large so you don't get sideplay.

What I'm most curious about is since you're starting with a fretless Gecko neck, what sort of body are you gong to get? self built or pre-built? Don't forget to take into accoount your huge 37" scale. You'll most likely have to have a longer body to accomodate that since the Warmoth neck is (I assume) probably a normal 34 or 35" scale.

... and to answer you last question: Have I ever built a fanned fret?
No. But once you've built a few instruments you pretty much understand the logic behind the whole bass building thing. ;)

There would definitely be sideplay with the G and D strings because of the gap between nut and zero fret.

I like your idea about cutting a trench through the nut and top of the fretboard until the zero fret to guide the strings. make sure the slots are *slightly* wider so the strings don't bind in it and not too large so you don't get sideplay.

What I'm most curious about is since you're starting with a fretless Gecko neck, what sort of body are you gong to get? self built or pre-built? Don't forget to take into accoount your huge 37" scale. You'll most likely have to have a longer body to accomodate that since the Warmoth neck is (I assume) probably a normal 34 or 35" scale.

... and to answer you last question: Have I ever built a fanned fret?
No. But once you've built a few instruments you pretty much understand the logic behind the whole bass building thing. ;)

Great.. You're pretty much confirming my thoughts with a little more experience. ;)

I did think of the body length. The necks (when fretted of course) are set up for a 35" scale, so their bodies are definitely too short. I'm going to build one.

I'm not certain, since I've never seen one close up, but I think the Dingwall basses have an angled nut, instead of a zero fret.

Regarding the 5" fan, I'm not really sure yet.. I'm going to mock something up to see how it feels. I generally stick to the bottom end of the fretboard anyhow (almost never past 12th fret), so if need be I could straighten things out a bit at the nut for a little more playability. I might also drop an inch or so off the spread, perhaps 37-33. I'm okay with the huge spans on the B. My hands are big enough.

-Nick.

I've got a 5-string multi-scale fretless (hard to call it "fanned fret" when there ain't no frets) that goes 38"-35" - it's a pretty decent stretch at that scale, can't imagine what it'd be like with a 5" differential ...

... but heck, if you dig it, do it ...

I've never messed with a fanned fret before. How difficult is it to get used to having a different scale on each string? It seems like it would confuse me to death. Wouldn't it just be easier to build a 37" scale bass?

I've never messed with a fanned fret before. How difficult is it to get used to having a different scale on each string? It seems like it would confuse me to death. Wouldn't it just be easier to build a 37" scale bass?

The longer the scale, the brighter the sound. Some people don't like such bright high strings, me included.

I would suggest an angled nut, 37 to 32 sounds steep in a 5er, my usual is 36 to 32 on a 6er. But I run my natural parallel at around the 12th fret. And I wouldn't want to feel the tension on a hi C string on a 37" scale, ouch!
To me the even tension is the biggest bonus with a fan.
Good luck,
Dirk

I would suggest an angled nut, 37 to 32 sounds steep in a 5er, my usual is 36 to 32 on a 6er. But I run my natural parallel at around the 12th fret. And I wouldn't want to feel the tension on a hi C string on a 37" scale, ouch!
To me the even tension is the biggest bonus with a fan.
Good luck,
Dirk

Yep.. Funny thing though, is that my 5 string 5 inch fan with a parallel 7 fret will have exactly the same difference per string at the nut as your 6 string 4 inch with a parallel 12

You're spreading 2 inches (.5 of the 4 inch spread) over 6 strings. = .33" per string.

I'm spreading 1.6" (.333 of the 5 inch spread) over 5 strings = .33" per string.

So I figure it should be doable, though the fretboard will get ugly up the neck.
I don't play much up there, so I could get away with it, though I'm thinking I might drop it to 4 inch spread instead of 5.

That'll give me .267" per string at the nut If I leave it at the 7th fret.

Also worth considering, is that I've ordered the wide version of the neck, 2 3/16 wide at the nut. (1/16 narrower than their 6 string) My angle at a 5 inch spread might even be less than yours at 4. My reach might be a little tougher though when I'm going between strings, since they're further apart.

Don't worry though.. I'll do a mockup beforehand to be sure it fits.

Dirk: I'm assuming you use a nut. Have you tried a zero fret? Do you build your own necks, or are you retrofitting onto a pre-built one like me.

One of the main things I'd be worried about using a nut is how I should attach it? cut a slot in the fingerboard, trim an angled chunk off the end, and put it at the end of the board, just glue it on top, etc.

My current thought is to use a zero fret with slots cut as string guides into the surface of the top chunk of board (headward of the zero fret) and a nut at the end of the board, cut deep enough that it's mostly (or only) a horizontal influence.

I do quite like the idea of a zero fret, though I guess I'll have to see what I end up with for angles. If the distance between the zero fret and the point where the string would enter the slots in the fretboard is too far back, I'll have to either use a standard nut instead of zero fret, or I'll have to come up with some other sort of guide which I can attach to the fingerboard.

I have a feeling that might be a problem, and I'll have to use a nut, as you suggest. You could get away with a bit of horizontal slop on a standard bass, but with an angled 0 fret, any slop will bend the note all over the place.

-Nick

Couple of things, since I'm a huge fanned fret aficionado. 37-32 seems a little extreme, as others have mentioned. I'd consider trying 37-34/33 and see how you like it. Sometimes it's hard to visualize exactly how it's going to look. While it's feasible for an extreme fan, it's probably not very comfortable and the 37" scale gives you a fantasticly wonderful B string.

As far as getting used to it, it's a matter of sitting down, looking where your hands are, and playing. That simple.

holy crap guys... I get it already. ;)

Thanks for the advice though, I'll may tone it down to 37" -> 33".

I'm not really worried about that anyways... I'll print a scale copy out on paper and tape it to my other 5 string and see how my hands fit before I decide on the final lengths. If I can do 37 -> 32 comfortably I will. If I end up at 37 -> 35" to get my hands comfortable so be it. Don't worry though, I'm not going to make a scale I can't play.

Any other words of wisdom that aren't related to my scale length?

The other stuff related to the nut is the stuff I can't really pre-test, and can use all the advice I can get.

Also any other pitfalls you can warn me about, since it is my first build.
-Nick

Bud LeCompte is building a fanned fret 5er for me now. Carey Nordstrand builds a pickup just for fanned fret basses. Here is a photo...
http://www.atlantabassgallery.com/bass_details.php?bass_id=734
Good Luck!
ps. 37-32 is pretty damn extreme.

I just had a look at a fretfind 2d mockup and it doesn't look too bad. But as you say, you should get a scale copy out on paper.

I've always liked the idea of having a zero fret without a nut at all. Ie. have grooves in the fret board. Although you would have to make sure you had enough break angle. I think it would look quite cool to have the fretboard blend into the headstock with grooves for the strings emerging through the blend (if you can picture what I mean).


Fretfind:
http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/2d/index.php
for those that aren't familiar

I just had a look at a fretfind 2d mockup and it doesn't look too bad. But as you say, you should get a scale copy out on paper.

I've always liked the idea of having a zero fret without a nut at all. Ie. have grooves in the fret board. Although you would have to make sure you had enough break angle. I think it would look quite cool to have the fretboard blend into the headstock with grooves for the strings emerging through the blend (if you can picture what I mean).


Fretfind:
http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/2d/index.php
for those that aren't familiar


Yeah. I don't think the break angle will be a problem, actually. Assuming you could get away with cutting a nut to fret height, a zero fret is no different. I think the issue might be that on the angle from the top of the zero fret to where the string would go below the top surface of the fretboard (into the slot) there might be too much run. If I was building from scratch, that would be a trivial problem, but on a premade board I'm just going to have to measure and see if it'll work. If the run is too long (which is likely the case) I'll need a nut behind the zero fret. If I need to put a nut on top of the fingerboard anyways, I'll probably just skip the zero fret, and cut a nice near-fret-height nut.

I think from a mechanical standpoint, that's probably going to work the best, but visually, I think it might look funny having a triangular chunk of fingerboard behind the nut. I wonder if it would be safe to taper it down to the head. The trussrod is behind it.. I'm not sure how much of a concern that is, or whether the trussrod is applying any force that close to the head.

-Nick

I dont know if its been mentioned above, didnt go though the whole thing. I personally never used a multi scale fret calculator. I printed out the 35 1/2" from stewmac and the 32 1/2". When I got to slotting the board, I figured it was important to mark the slots where the two outer strings were actually gonna sit. That means the board has to be final tapered (unlike a 'normal' board where you can glue and taper after slotting) however you wont have this problem since your neck is all glued up and sanded. Only problem you might have is getting the whole neck steady while you slot, might have to build some kinga jig, depending which blade you use to slot. So basically, im saying you should mark your frets about 4mm in on each side, since the scale length is about the string and not the edge of a fingerboard. HTH and made sense. Good luck on your build.

Yes I do use a nut, and yes I build the necks not retrofit existing necks. But the same concept should work fine, I do route a channel for the nut. Maybe 1/16" or so just enough to hold it in place.
You should be able to do the same on yours.
And that is interesting the scale measuring concept and where the parallel fret is. I layout mine with a standard 36" scale then mark a 32" scale, offset the short scale by 2" on each end, connect the dots and cut the slots.
If you want pictures you can check out the galleries in my signature. There are 2 fan fret builds there.
Good luck,
Dirk

So basically, im saying you should mark your frets about 4mm in on each side, since the scale length is about the string and not the edge of a fingerboard. HTH and made sense. Good luck on your build.

It'll probably be easier to do it precisely by calculating what the scale length should be to get the scale right at the string and then marking the edges of the board with that. Really though, it's not a big deal. If I ignored the 4mm it would still be in tune. My scale would just be very slightly shorter at the low string/longer at the high string. I'd end up with a 36.9 -> 32.1 or something.

-Nick

Arx -

Take a look at this:

http://www.sdbguitars.com/neck_fretted_with_tuners.jpg

That's a 37" - 33.25" 6-string fanned fret neck, with the 7th fret perpendicular. According to most everyone I've talked with (like the guys at Dingwall, and they should know), ~.75" scale difference between each string is pretty much ideal to give you equal tension between each string, or very close to it, if the proper string gauges are used.

Equal tension and balanced tone are the main reasons for going with a multi-scale fingerboard setup.

For the 37" B string, if you want 24 frets on the neck, you will have to have a fingerboard around 30" long, minimum... that allows for the 27.75" you will need from the nut to the 24th fret, and a slight overhang after the fret. You may not be able to accomplish this with the Warmoth neck. If you are determined to use that neck, you will likely only get about 18 - 20 frets out of it, at least, that would be my guess, as you'd be 2" short of what you'd need for 24 frets......

There are many luthiers who can build you a multi-scale neck to your specifications, and I'm sure you can even build it yourself... I'm just concerned that there is not enough real estate on that neck to accomodate your needs.

If you are determined to use that neck, you will likely only get about 18 - 20 frets out of it, at least, that would be my guess, as you'd be 2" short of what you'd need for 24 frets......

There are many luthiers who can build you a multi-scale neck to your specifications, and I'm sure you can even build it yourself... I'm just concerned that there is not enough real estate on that neck to accomodate your needs.

Yep.. Thanks for the heads up. I thought of that before I ordered, and I'm alright with the lack of frets on the B/E strings. I don't really play up the neck at all anyways, so I don't think It'll bother me any.

I'm sure I could get one built for me, but I'm partly doing this because I want the bass, and partly to learn how to do it myself.

I would have built it entirely from scratch, but I didn't really want to cope with profiling a neck this time around. Maybe if I build another one I'll go that route.

Thanks for the pics though. That gives me a good idea what I'll be dealing with. Since I've ordered the wide neck it's not far off of a lot of 6 strings, so I'll probably have similar angles.

What's the width of the fretboard at each end?

-Nick

2" wide at nut, 3.25" wide at 24th fret

yeah. the neck I ordered is 2.1875" wide at the nut and 3.125" wide at the 24th.

So, my 5 will have a bit less angle on the nut than your 6 at the same scale spread.

I've never messed with a fanned fret before. How difficult is it to get used to having a different scale on each string? It seems like it would confuse me to death. Wouldn't it just be easier to build a 37" scale bass?

It was really easy to get used to on my Dingwall ABII, and really was a lot easier than I expected on the 35-38 fretless. Just like when I first picked up fretless, I really had to force myself to listen and not look, but once I realized it was doable and trusted that my fingers would find the notes I heard in my head, it came together pretty quickly. As for why multi-scale, I'm just of the opinion that the longer the better when it comes to the B-string and I like the feel and sound of a 35" G ...

Some updates:

Most of my parts, including the neck and body blank, shipped out, and are scheduled to arrive on Monday. :)

I think I've decided to go with a 33" G, instead of a 32". I may change my mind when I get the neck, and tape a scale printout to it, but 33" is the current plan.

I checked it out, and based on the fact that their standard neck is 35" scale, and has 24 frets, it has to have at least 26.25" of board to work with. I'll be able to get 20 frets easily on my B string, quite likely 21. More on the others. That's enough for me. If I want to play low, I'll go down the neck. If I want to play high, I'll be on the other strings with more frets anyways. ;)

I could use some advice on cutting the frets, though.

Those of you who have cut a fanned fret board with a hand saw, what type of jig did you use, and how well did it work?

I've got an idea in mind, but if someone else has a simple but effective method it might save me re-inventing the wheel.

-Nick