They claim you get improved sustain and tone by using a titanium bridge instead of steel. Anyone have any insight on the effects of different materials on tone?

If you do a search in the basses forum or maybe setup and repair there is a pretty long thread in about this subject. The general consensus was that it is bologna if I recall correctly.

no reason I could see for more sustain from titanium. I've read in a lot of threads that heavy bridges actually help with sustain, in which case it might be worse (titanium is about 1/2 the weight of steel)

In my estimation, it wouldn't make any difference either way. Of course that's strictly based on my thoughts and understanding of the physics, I haven't ever tried one.

I tend to be a skeptic about such things though.

What might be cool about a titanium bridge, is that depending on the alloy, you could possibly anodize it to a lot of cool colours.

Edit: And OMFG. The prices. The ones I find on a google search all look like the $20 econo bridges, selling for upwards of $100, because they contain maybe $10 worth of titanium (if you buy the titanium from an expensive supplier in small quantities)

Maybe I oughta buy some Ti and bang some of those out.

Maybe the ones you were looking at are better? Links?

-Nick

I saw it here:

http://www.guitarpartsdepot.com/product.cgi?group=2462&product=2490

I agree it looks pretty dinky, although it would be more durable than steel. Now a larger mass bridge in titanium similar to the Hipshot A would be interesting.

my bass teacher has a brass nut and a brass bridge on one of his basses, which is also neck-through... the thing Never stops sustaining.. even when its unplugged..

Just thought that I should point this out. Titanium is indeed stronger than steel... BY WEIGHT. So, by the way, is aluminum. Comparing a pure titanium bar with an identically sized one of steel, you will find that, assuming their tempers are reasonably similar, the steel bar is stronger. Commonly available 'titanium' stock is often even softer and less strong due to it being alloyed.

So, to sum up, Should you want a badly designed bridge that is 1/2 the weight of steel, 2/3 the strength, and brittle to boot, well, by all means...

...So, to sum up, Should you want a badly designed bridge that is 1/2 the weight of steel, 2/3 the strength, and brittle to boot, well, by all means...

You almost have me sold, but are there any disadvantages?

titanium is also fairly soft, I hear and would absorb some of the strings' vibrations...I don't claim that this is so,just say what I have heard.

In the bicycle world titanium is well known for it's ability to absorb vibration and it's dampening characteristics. Those advertisers often tout it's deadening qualities since cyclists prefer to not have vibrations transfered.

titanium is also fairly soft, I hear and would absorb some of the strings' vibrations...I don't claim that this is so,just say what I have heard.

Nope,Titanium is not soft at all. It is very tough,as far as machining,comaired to steel. It really wears out cutting tools if you don't use lots coolant or lubricants depending on what you're doing.It's used in turbine engine components like fan blades,disks,rotors,engine mounts.etc.. Any place where there is extreme heat or stress,Titanium,or sometimes Inconel is used. Brass to me is always the best choice for bass bridges just because of density.

Nope,Titanium is not soft at all. It is very tough,as far as machining,comaired to steel. It really wears out cutting tools if you don't use lots coolant or lubricants depending on what you're doing.It's used in turbine engine components like fan blades,disks,rotors,engine mounts.etc.. Any place where there is extreme heat or stress,Titanium,or sometimes Inconel is used. Brass to me is always the best choice for bass bridges just because of density.

Interesting!
Thanx for the info!!

I think for a bridge, both design, and what it's made of both affect it's performance. I would think though that Titanium as a material, would have a brightening effect. I don't think it would be significant improvment over a cast bridge like a Bad Ass. The key element with both of these would be ridgidity and not mass. My thoughts anyway.

You can't really generalize titanium that way. There are different alloys, usually the alloys are mainly to make things stiffer, as I understand it. Probably most of the alloys are harder than pure Ti as well.

I will confirm that Ti definitely is not stronger/harder than steel.

Saying that you'll wear out tools doesn't really say much either. Try machining copper sometime. It's soft, but it's brutal on tools.. Snaps drill bits in the blink of an eye, etc.

People are always mixing up strength, stiffness, hardness, durability. They're very different things.

As far as durability goes, I don't know anyone who's ever worn out any metal bridge, so this is pretty much a non-factor. If you have problems with corrosion, Ti is the winner. It usually has a relatively dull finish to begin with, but it doesn't really corrode in anything short of hydrofluoric acid. So if you like the way it looks now. It'll probably be that way forever. OTOH, stainless isn't far off, and neither is chrome, assuming it's done properly.

If you want stiffness, which only really matters on the upright portion, you wouldn't build it with such thin material. pretty much any cast bridge will have metal a few times thicker than that (judging by the pictures), not to mention that they'll usually have other ridges and stuff which stiffen things a LOT.

Who cares if it's used it jet turbines. That's for its corrosion resistance at high temperatures, and its light weight. Inconel is used primarily for heat/corrosion resistance as well.

After checking out KTS's website, I'm more and more convinced that their designs are strictly about ease of manufacture. There's nothing wrong with this, but making cheap parts out of fancy metal doesn't make them good.

http://www.allparts.com/store/bass-bridges-4-string-single-string-bb-3410-010,Product.asp
how about this? It's probably a lot more solid, and even has some locating slots to keep the saddles from sliding around, and it saves you a c-note.

If you really want something that's built like a tank, there's LOTS out there in the ~100 category. look at the anchor points on a badass. you could build that out of any half way reasonable metal, and it'll blow away that bent Ti sheetmetal.

I think as far as sustain and brightness goes, beefy is the way to go. Weight will keep too much energy from being absorbed by the wood.

The only actual advantages I could see in a Ti bridge are weight, though the difference isn't likely to be significant enough to notice, and depending on the alloy, the ability to anodize to some pretty cool colours. Depending what I was putting it on, this might be worth a bit to me, but I'm still not going to pay $117 for a $17 bridge, just because it's made out of a few bucks worth of Ti. Doesn't figure....

-Nick

One big advantage ( as is in cycling world ) is weight.Something I look for now on everything I buy. ( as time goes by :smug: )


I want to make a new bass sonn , that is something I will look for , those TI bridge....
If it is on par with sound of course!

One big advantage ( as is in cycling world ) is weight.Something I look for now on everything I buy. ( as time goes by :smug: )


I want to make a new bass sonn , that is something I will look for , those TI bridge....
If it is on par with sound of course!

But just like in cycling, the few grams you'll save is an order of magnitude smaller than the weight of the instrument. You might go from 3200g to 3100g at best. I doubt you would notice. Weight might make some difference for balance if you could reduce it at the headstock, but in the body, it's kind of pointless.

indeed... I can't see the weight of a Ti bridge vs. an aluminum or brass bridge making a significant difference.

Will there be a difference? Of course.

Will it be enough to be noticed by the human ear? Possibly.

Will it be enough to be noticed by the average human listening to your bass at a 120db+ rock concert? Um, no...

This has been discussed a million times, but the thing that people keep not bringing up is that titanium is the "rubberband of metals" because it's very springy and elastic despite being so hard and stiff. Hence why it's also used in applications that might induce a lot of stretching (very high speed airplane skins, for example).

What does that mean for a bass? It means it'll vibrate along with the string a lot more than, say, brass, which will eat up a lot of the mechanical energy. IE, not good for "sustain"!

Brass is the way to go if you want something stiffer and more massive that aluminum but still not as heavy as steel. It's just not the right app for titanium. Thought it would be cool, until I tried it, it wasn't, then realized why.

Brass density: 8.9 kg/l
Steel density: 7.8 kg/l
Titanium IRC : 4.5 kg/l
Aluminium : 2.7 kg/l

Just to keep the basics in place.

Steel is the stiffest and hardest, followed by titanium. Alu and brass are about the same, except anodized alu, which has an extreme surface hardness (compared to the basic material)

Then to the bottom line: how do they impact sustain, or tone, or whatever such value? Not much. I bet very few, if any, of us will spot the difference in a blind test. An much less an audience in a musical situation...

density does not correlate to rigidity...

if that were true, then mercury would be tough as nails...

titanium is a very strong metal and it quite rigid...it is also quite light...

if you're looking for rigidity AND weight, you may want to consider having a bridge machined out of a stainless steel alloy such as 304L...I've been considering the properties of 409 stainless, it's tough and not too light ...it's the stuff they make many golf clubs and auto exhaust systems from.

Tonal quality is something so subjective, I doubt the elaborate claims of supposed benefits of titanium parts for a guitar can be sufficiently disproven by scientists to dsipel the faith of the believers, a bit like religion, in a way.

Brass density: 8.9 kg/l
Steel density: 7.8 kg/l
Titanium IRC : 4.5 kg/l
Aluminium : 2.7 kg/l

Just to keep the basics in place.

Steel is the stiffest and hardest, followed by titanium. Alu and brass are about the same, except anodized alu, which has an extreme surface hardness (compared to the basic material)

Then to the bottom line: how do they impact sustain, or tone, or whatever such value? Not much. I bet very few, if any, of us will spot the difference in a blind test. An much less an audience in a musical situation...

Its interesting, Aluminum and brass seem to be the two materials that everyone claim have the best tonal properties, but seem to be on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I agree with the second point. the bridge on a cheap basswood epiphone LP of mine started leaning, so I added a top of the line replacement. At home, I can definately tell it sustains better and has better harmonics than my stock Gibson LP in a direct A/B, but in a live band situation noone could probably tell a difference.

So FWIW is the general consensus that Titanium is more or less worthless in musical applications and aluminum and brass are the choice materials?

I wouldn't necessarily say worthless. Sometimes it may impart the tone you're looking for, and sometimes the weight might matter (if it were tuners or something)

Also it could look quite nice if done properly. Ti can be a very nice looking metal.

Problems with most of the Ti bridges I've seen is that they're very thin and way too expensive for what they are.

-Nick

Brass density: 8.9 kg/l
Steel density: 7.8 kg/l
Titanium IRC : 4.5 kg/l
Aluminium : 2.7 kg/l

Just to keep the basics in place.

Steel is the stiffest and hardest, followed by titanium. Alu and brass are about the same, except anodized alu, which has an extreme surface hardness (compared to the basic material)


Weird, in the cycling world wrt metals...steel frames are the heaviest and softest (absorbing road vibrations), aluminum is second heaviest but the stiffest, and titanium is the lightest and approaches steel in terms of softness (from a non-metal pov, carbon fiber is the lightest but the most stiffest of the frame materials).

In the cycling world, the strength of titanium allows them to machine the frame tubes very, very thin. So that is why titanium bikes are lighter.

Weird, in the cycling world wrt metals...steel frames are the heaviest and softest (absorbing road vibrations), aluminum is second heaviest but the stiffest, and titanium is the lightest and approaches steel in terms of softness (from a non-metal pov, carbon fiber is the lightest but the most stiffest of the frame materials).

In the cycling world, the strength of titanium allows them to machine the frame tubes very, very thin. So that is why titanium bikes are lighter.

They can build frames lighter in aluminum than in titanium, they just don't last.
If you look at all the stupid light 2-3lb frames, you'll find that they're usually aluminum.

Sustain is more a product of neck stiffness than bridge mass.

Softer materials like brass will give a different tone than a steel bridge would. Steel would be brighter.

An aluminum bridge actually has a similar tone to a wooden bridge.

Many bridges are die cast from zinc alloys, such as the Schaller and Badass bridges.

here's the bottom line, IMHO....titanium "sounds" very exotic...therefore it can be sold at a huge markup over a more "common" product that's made out of zinc alloy, steel, brass, or aluminum...

hence, it is 90% a marketing ploy and is making some company (won't mention any names) a bit of money...

here's the bottom line, IMHO....titanium "sounds" very exotic...therefore it can be sold at a huge markup over a more "common" product that's made out of zinc alloy, steel, brass, or aluminum...

hence, it is 90% a marketing ploy and is making some company (won't mention any names) a bit of money...

It's a buzz word... almost like neodymium! Except that actually has merit. ;)

It's a buzz word... almost like neodymium! Except that actually has merit. ;)

Titanium has its merits too. I'd love to have a titanium bridge if it was well made, and not what looks like it was cut out of a piece of angle stock.

IMO, the issue is when you charge an extra $100 just because you're using a different metal, and then claim it's better.

If it were an extra $20, maybe...

IMO, the issue is when you charge an extra $100 just because you're using a different metal, and then claim it's better.

If it were an extra $20, maybe...

My point exactly.

Titanium has its merits too. I'd love to have a titanium bridge if it was well made, and not what looks like it was cut out of a piece of angle stock.

IMO, the issue is when you charge an extra $100 just because you're using a different metal, and then claim it's better.

If it were an extra $20, maybe...


precisely...there's no WAY that Ti costs $100 more for that little bit of metal...

AFAIK titanium stock is about 2x$ to alu, around here. Or 3x$ to steel, or rather equal to most brass alloys.

My take: want sustain? Fix the backbone, top to bottom.
want attack? Backbone+hardness of top and bridges.
want other tone? Work with weight/stiffnes ratio distribution over the instrument, use different playing techniques and tweak the amp and effects. The latter in the row, the quicker to the result:)

AFAIK titanium stock is about 2x$ to alu, around here. Or 3x$ to steel, or rather equal to most brass alloys.


Wow. Either you're paying WAY too much for aluminum or you're getting one HELL of a deal on Ti.

I just checked a couple places, and found that Titanium 6AL-4V costs anywhere from 28x to 40x than the same size of Aluminum 6061. EDIT: in the US!

Asad

Titanium is more expensive to machine than those other metals. But still not necessarily enough to justify those end prices.

Titanium is more expensive to machine than those other metals. But still not necessarily enough to justify those end prices.

Especially when, if you look at that bridge, the machining is pretty minimal.

True, they're not hogging out a shape from a block. But it is significantly more difficult to cut, shear, drill, and tap Ti as compared to steel.

Wow. Either you're paying WAY too much for aluminum or you're getting one HELL of a deal on Ti.

I just checked a couple places, and found that Titanium 6AL-4V costs anywhere from 28x to 40x than the same size of Aluminum 6061. EDIT: in the US!

Asad
I might have old numbers for the Ti, but for sure, Al IS way overcharged here, at least if you don't have access to the large volume vendors.