A former college roommate who now plays in the bass section of an orchestra you all know wrote a (sadly) unpublished novel about the trials and tribulations of symphony musicians.

One thread in the novel involves the over-the-hill, semi-competent principal cellist who is hated by most of the orchestra for the way he toadies to the megalomaniacal conductor (pardon the redundancy).

In any case, as the plot approaches its denouement, one aspect involves what the other musicians do by way of revenge once they realize that the hated cellist can safely begin his high, exposed solo only by relying on a discreet pencil mark on his fingerboard. An erasable pencil mark. One that looked just like the one that subsequently appeared, a half inch away...

i love it....my orchestra teacher put markings on my double bass (ive only been playing for about a year), but just recently i noticed that i dont even look at them anymore...its all in the ear and knowing how notes relate to each other string by string. my intonation on EB has gotten alot better because of it.

I refuse to be embarrased by tape, pencil marks, dots, christmas lights, etc. on the necks and fingerboards of my or anyone else's bass to help us all achieve good intonation. The benefits are too beautiful for the ear to disregard.

Man is capable of so much evil in this world.

Originally posted by Johnny L
I refuse to be embarrased by tape, pencil marks, dots, christmas lights, etc. on the necks and fingerboards of my or anyone else's bass to help us all achieve good intonation. The benefits are too beautiful for the ear to disregard.


Good intonation is something we should all have. But we, as musicians, should not have to rely on markings on our basses. First of all, its an increadibly juvenile thing to do as a player and should not be limited to such mechanical thinking. You should have many "reference points" (notes that you can easily find on your bass) that you know on your bass to help you get around. Assuming you have decent relative pitch that is

Maybe you're right after all. I always thought pianists were a bunch of childish brats...

Good point Fischer. I find myself using the D on the G string and of course the octave harmonics as "reference points" often.

It is precisely the things on the side of my head which drive me to advocate fingerboard markings. However, that's not the only thing which guide my hands...

I was watching a Quincy Jones interview on PBS, maybe a year ago, and he was asked what, in his opinion, was the greatest contribution to music in the 20th century. His reply was (you've gotta love this) the invention of the Fender Precision bass, and his justification was the numerous upright bass players out there who simply couldn't play with the quality of intonation afforded by the Fender Precision players, NOT THE INCREASED VOLUME.

I'm sorry, but I'm simply not reading ANY counter arguments on this thread which are convincing me to remove the little masking tape diamonds I've stuck onto the side of my fingerboard for every single note in the 12-tone row. Whether I'm singing or playing my bass, I can hear the difference and do whatever I have to do to center my pitch with those who have to live with what their instrument delivers. I can't bring the pitch- markings advantage to my voice, but I can for my bass. And when I use them to guide my fingers I'm damn close, if not dead on.

But then, I use a bow most often to play. Pizz is easy for me cause I was weaned on a Fender Jazz and I used my fingers to cop those wonderful James Jamerson licks. My ears let me be much more sloppy with Pizz, and I simply can't get away with that using the bow. So for those of you that walk and don't saw, I can understand the defiance a little more.

Only a half an inch away, you know...

I have a couple of visual marks on the side of my finger board/neck. I really only use them when I am struggling to hear myself.
My responsibility as the bassist is to play in time and in tune, I need to support the rest of my band and if my out of tune note/s throw my singer then I am not doing my job.
My ego doesn't prohibit me from using mechanical means as well as aural means to do my job properly.
Neither does my willingness to use mechanical means diminish the importance of being able to hear that I am in tune(or not).
In the end the better your technique the less you will need to refer to the markings.

I'm sorry, but I'm simply not reading ANY counter arguments on this thread which are convincing me to remove the little masking tape diamonds I've stuck onto the side of my fingerboard for every single note in the 12-tone row.


Well here's one: Your eyes are not in line with all the markers, so they can actually cause you to play out of tune, especially on the higher strings. I've demonstrated this to students who use them by having them play a note on the G string (usually Db or Eb) using the marker as a guide and then having them peek their head around the fingerboard to look at their left hand. Usually their finger is higher up on the string than the marker beacuse they are viewing it from an angle. I venture to guess that if you are playing in tune most of the time, it's because of muscle memory and a good ear, not the markers.

- Steve

http://kaybass.home.att.net

. . . I'm sorry, but I'm simply not reading ANY counter arguments on this thread which are convincing me to remove the little masking tape diamonds I've stuck onto the side of my fingerboard for every single note in the 12-tone row . . .

How about the fact that if you become visually dependent on the markings:

1. you have no ability at all to adjust for pitch if the climate, a bridge bump or something else makes the open string pitch change.

2. You will look like a total fool on someone else's bass that doesn't have them.

3. You will really struggle to sightread if you have to keep looking at the neck.

4. When you perform publically, it isn't very professional to present your listeners and fellow musicians with 60 minutes of the top of your head.

5. As mentioned, a parrallax will create problems for you. That is the position of your fingers with relation to the position of the tape will move depending on your point of view.

I don't have any real problems with markers. I know the idea of certain references is becoming more common. Maybr marks at the harmonic nodes or something. But every note seems overkill and more problematic than helpful.

...I'm an agnostic on markers, though I don't use 'em myself. I just thought I'd point out that it's irrelevant whether the marker's on the absolutely valid spot for a given pitch. Irrelevant, that is, if the player doesn't rely on them completely in lieu of his ears. Markers don't have to be used slavishly and stupidly as the sole indicator of where you should stop a string. They can be used instead as merely a highly visible, non-moving reference point.

I think if you let a marker trump your ear & brain in deciding whether something sounds good you're not really taking full responsibility for the noise you're making. And musicians take responsibility for the noise they make.

The keys on a piano are a sort of marker, too: "press here and access the correct note." That doesn't mean to say a piano can't be more of a nuisance object than a musical instrument. A lot of the old touring musicians have stories of really bad pianos sabatoged rather than left for another musician to suffer. The guys that did that were musicians.

I learned with very thin schotch tape markers at first, second, third, and fourth position. After a semester, I didn't need them any more. I think the markings are helpful when you are just getting started. I don't agree with the argument that it teaches you to rely on them to the point of not being able to play any other bass. I think it gives you an easy reference point that will simply aide you in learning the muscle memory needed to play without them. As I said, I learned the muscle memory in a semester, and then I took the markings off.

...I'm an agnostic on markers, though I don't use 'em myself. I just thought I'd point out that it's irrelevant whether the marker's on the absolutely valid spot for a given pitch. Irrelevant, that is, if the player doesn't rely on them completely in lieu of his ears. Markers don't have to be used slavishly and stupidly as the sole indicator of where you should stop a string. They can be used instead as merely a highly visible, non-moving reference point.

I think if you let a marker trump your ear & brain in deciding whether something sounds good you're not really taking full responsibility for the noise you're making. And musicians take responsibility for the noise they make.

The keys on a piano are a sort of marker, too: "press here and access the correct note." That doesn't mean to say a piano can't be more of a nuisance object than a musical instrument. A lot of the old touring musicians have stories of really bad pianos sabatoged rather than left for another musician to suffer. The guys that did that were musicians.

Well said! It's not if you use them, but how you use them. Calling them cheats, is almost the same as calling folks with a mechanical extension cheaters. They're using that device because they feel it allows them to make better music. I don't know that anyone would disagree with someone who is just trying to make good music.

The bass's natual reference points are still physical reference points. No one here so far has suggested not using reference points at all. They've just argued how many to use.

Have a look at the album cover of Edgar Meyer's Bottesini Concerto CD.

There are position markers on his bass.

His intonation is 110% perfect, live and on the recordings.

'Nuff said.

Have a look at the album cover of Edgar Meyer's Bottesini Concerto CD.

There are position markers on his bass.

His intonation is 110% perfect, live and on the recordings.

'Nuff said.
Those markers are a put on!

Have a look at the album cover of Edgar Meyer's Bottesini Concerto CD.

There are position markers on his bass.

His intonation is 110% perfect, live and on the recordings.

'Nuff said.

I saw Edgar give a master class about two months ago. One of the university students to play for him studies with both my teacher (orchestral) and myself (jazz). When he played examples for her on her unmarked bass - which by the way has a string length which is about 3-4" longer than his tiny solo bass - his intonation was still 110% perfect. He also plays most of the time with his eyes closed.

'Nuff said. :)

Well here's one: Your eyes are not in line with all the markers, so they can actually cause you to play out of tune, especially on the higher strings. I've demonstrated this to students who use them by having them play a note on the G string (usually Db or Eb) using the marker as a guide and then having them peek their head around the fingerboard to look at their left hand. Usually their finger is higher up on the string than the marker beacuse they are viewing it from an angle. I venture to guess that if you are playing in tune most of the time, it's because of muscle memory and a good ear, not the markers.

- Steve

http://kaybass.home.att.net


??????
Fretless BG has the same issue with diagonal view of markings, yet still has the markings. Admittedly DB has a greater angle to the user's eye, but I have little difficulty translating BG markings to the correct fingerboard position, so I can't see why I could not do so on DB. Then again I am an upright neophyte (BG convert), so what do I know.

If you do markings it is much more accurate to do them on the fingerboard itself. Whether he uses them or not this is the way Edgar Meyer's bass is. The only marking I've ever used is at the octave. I think people are right that you can develop a dependence. One of the first things I do when I take a new student is pull the tape off their bass. Some rental places actually put tape in place on rental instruments. I have my students practice in the dark to work on intonation. That said I don't see any 'shame' in making little marks if they help you play the right notes, just try to use them as a tool rather than a crutch.

??????
Fretless BG has the same issue with diagonal view of markings, yet still has the markings. Admittedly DB has a greater angle to the user's eye, but I have little difficulty translating BG markings to the correct fingerboard position, so I can't see why I could not do so on DB. Then again I am an upright neophyte (BG convert), so what do I know.

After starting on DB after messing with a fretless for a few months (I was a guitarist for years before that), I found the markings on a fretless totally annoying. They never lined up right to my ears. I've always been suspicious that the scale length has something to do with it. Being that an EB's scale is much shorter, it seems that it's easier to intonate on 41 inches instead of 35. On a DB, I feel like I have more room to wiggle and being slightly off is less noticable tho hopefully my ears will detect it anyway.

BTW: I started out getting intonated using a chomatic tuner and sometimes getting different drones going with BinAB. It's almost been a year now and I think I can say it ain't bad. I do both pizz and arco tho I focus on pizz and arco is just intonation practice. I've weaned myself off of the tuner and feel like I don't need it anymore. I just use some flames/knots in the neck for an occasional visual cue but I don't rely on them either. I like being able to play without looking. Just my $.02.

What's the big deal?
Marks or no marks, you're either in tune or not.

Quote ( by FSCOTCHTAPE ):
"- his intonation was still 110% perfect."

Was that 10% flat or sharp? :D

R2

Quote ( by FSCOTCHTAPE ):
"- his intonation was still 110% perfect."

Was that 10% flat or sharp? :D


I'd have to say flat, since the only chink in Edgar's armor that I can even see a glimmer of is his tendency to scoop into notes. However, he does this so incredibly tastefully that it's hard to find fault with it, whereas with most players this trait has the potential to be hella annoying.

I have a student who had markers inlaid into the fingerboard and this has caused two problems:

1. he cannot play any other bass in tune. he has become completely reliant on the markers.

2. he will probably have to get a new fb if his bass ever needs work since the inlays are shell...

I am trying to make him play my bass for his lessons just to point out hid dependency.

I'd have to say flat, since the only chink in Edgar's armor that I can even see a glimmer of is his tendency to scoop into notes. However, he does this so incredibly tastefully that it's hard to find fault with it, whereas with most players this trait has the potential to be hella annoying.

I heard from the horse's mouth that he used ProTools extensively, which can correct a multitude of sins. This is not to say that he isn't a superlative soloist, but with the modern recording tools available these days, you just don't know what you're listening to for real anymore.

I heard from the horse's mouth that he used ProTools extensively, which can correct a multitude of sins. This is not to say that he isn't a superlative soloist, but with the modern recording tools available these days, you just don't know what you're listening to for real anymore.
+10

Heard him play 2 concerti with orchestra and did not hear any out-of-tune notes. The orchestra does cover some of his sound but he was miked and more in tune than the first violins! As far as ProTools, I would imagine Sony made that mandatory since their investment in him as an artist would demand an impeccable album. It can't be too easy to sell a classical bassist on the scale they can sell a new violinist or cellist. I would call it 110% perfect intonation because he has a wider margin of infallibility than most players. In other words we may get some of our notes in tune by chance, but Edgar NAILS them, or at the very least, exudes the confidence that he can hit the bullseye every time.

Heard him play 2 concerti with orchestra and did not hear any out-of-tune notes. The orchestra does cover some of his sound but he was miked and more in tune than the first violins! As far as ProTools, I would imagine Sony made that mandatory since their investment in him as an artist would demand an impeccable album. It can't be too easy to sell a classical bassist on the scale they can sell a new violinist or cellist. I would call it 110% perfect intonation because he has a wider margin of infallibility than most players. In other words we may get some of our notes in tune by chance, but Edgar NAILS them, or at the very least, exudes the confidence that he can hit the bullseye every time.I second that emotion. Edgar did the #2 Ro-Bottesini and his own Robot Concerto from his latest solo CD, and it was 99.99% flawless. Any pro tools controversy here is imaginary. The dots controversy is still up for debate, though.

I second that emotion. Edgar did the #2 Ro-Bottesini and his own Robot Concerto from his latest solo CD, and it was 99.99% flawless. Any pro tools controversy here is imaginary. The dots controversy is still up for debate, though.

What kills me with Edgar is when he tosses his bow on the floor, then breaks its fall with his foot! Is he still doing that?

What kills me with Edgar is when he tosses his bow on the floor, then breaks its fall with his foot! Is he still doing that?

I'm going to see him + Chris Thile tomorrow night - I'll let you know if he does :)

Tom

What kills me with Edgar is when he tosses his bow on the floor, then breaks its fall with his foot! Is he still doing that?LOL He didn't do any pizz work for the concert though, and he wasn't using the same bow during the master class (he kept that one on the piano when he wasn't using it).

Maybe the Chris Thile concert will inspire the impulse...

My friend told me that after repairing his bow 6 times, the Robertsons told Meyer that if he broke it again, they wouldn't repair it, so he's charged not to drop it on the floor!

My friend told me that after repairing his bow 6 times, the Robertsons told Meyer that if he broke it again, they wouldn't repair it, so he's charged not to drop it on the floor!
Who the hell are they to tell Edgar that he can't toss his bow on the floor.? He likes those sh!tty bows anyway...I think it's unique. Besides, he does break it's fall with his foot....

I keep getting into these statements about Mr. Meyer and his affection with cheap bows -- where does this come from, an interview, a statement of some kind? Can anybody direct me to his own words regarding his bow preference? Thank you.

I keep getting into these statements about Mr. Meyer and his affection with cheap bows -- where does this come from, an interview, a statement of some kind? Can anybody direct me to his own words regarding his bow preference? Thank you.

I can only say that I saw one of his bows laying on the piano after a concert and it was a real clunker.
Like you, though, I've just always heard those stories. Have you not seen him toss bows at his concerts? Boy I have, and I don't think he's crazy enough to toss $2,000-$5,000 bows!

Sid King (my teacher and friend) knows Edgar, and can vouch for the crappines of his bow. I forget what kind he said it was, but it's basically akin to an old Kay bow that has been broken many times. I saw him in concert with Mike Marshall a couple of months ago and can testify that yes, he DOES toss his bow around quite a bit.

It also depends on what they're playing...if they are playing something that doesn't involve big hunks of pizz, he has no need to toss bows!

Ever notice the Tension on EM's bow ? Almost looks Baroque he has it cranked up so tight.

Ever notice the Tension on EM's bow ? Almost looks Baroque he has it cranked up so tight.

EM is not into the visual aspects of his equipment...you're right about his bow tension Z...it almost curves the wrong way. I heard him once when, apparently, a seam on the back of his Gabrielli popped open. Of course, being on the road, he had to tape it. But his choice for tape was the silver Duct. Between that and the tape on his bow curving the wrong way, t'was pretty bizzare visually! :D

EM is not into the visual aspects of his equipment...you're right about his bow tension Z...it almost curves the wrong way. I heard him once when, apparently, a seam on the back of his Gabrielli popped open. Of course, being on the road, he had to tape it. But his choice for tape was the silver Duct. Between that and the tape on his bow curving the wrong way, t'was pretty bizzare visually! :D


You have to remember that he grew up in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. If duct tape is good enough for half the truck bumpers and sofa cushions in the "city", it's gotta be good enough for a bass. :)





BTW, before any Volunteers get all miffed about me me taking a cheap shot at Tennessee. You should know that I grew up in Oliver Springs, TN. A town about 15 miles from 1/10 the size of Oak Ridge. We went to Oak Ridge when we wanted to "go to town."

At the time, Knoxville was a megaopolis.

While as proud as can be of my heritage, I have to confess that refinement is not among the strong suits of my Appalachian brethren. (Nor myself for that matter :) )

:D

Last time i saw Edgar and had a chance to talk with him it was just after he had gone out to the bus for a 6 pack of Heineken. Can you see him at Curtis with his 6 pack ?

Can you see him at Curtis with his 6 pack ?

I've been watching Edgar play for many years, and I'd be willing to bet that he's never had a 6 pack in his entire life.














Oh, you mean beer...

I've been watching Edgar play for many years, and I'd be willing to bet that he's never had a 6 pack in his entire life.














Oh, you mean beer...

Geeze!!!

Last time i saw Edgar and had a chance to talk with him it was just after he had gone out to the bus for a 6 pack of Heineken. Can you see him at Curtis with his 6 pack ?



Heineken, eh?

I withdraw my previous statements. He's come along way from his roots. Otherwise it'da been Bud.

I'm a DB neophyte (been playing for about a month) and I've never used position markers. I've been playing fretless BG for almost a year and I've gotten pretty good at it and my intonation is very good (including tapping wth left and right hands past "thumb position") and the fingerboard is lined. So, I wanted to see if I could do DB without any. I was adapting stuff from jazz band to it during the exams break (I took it home for two months) I had a big problem with looking at it to try and judge distances and whatnot. I also practiced with a tuner (still do a bit.) I know the jazz band songs now, but the real bit of astonishment came when my first actual music class started (I've been taking lessons and studying theory since I started 3 years ago on BG) and we were sight-reading new stuff. Now, I've never been that good at reading and I could NEVER sight-read. I can identify the notes quickly, and I know the fingerboard like the back of my hand, but it just never WORKED, ya know? I always used to look at the board because of the lines. On upright, though, I was sight-reading nearly perfectly, AND with pretty good intonation (not spotless, but pretty good) and it's getting better every day.

I've got "reference" notes all over the neck for the different positions. I pick out half position on the G string, 1st on the A and the D, 2nd on the A, 3rd on the E, etc. They're all just notes that I KNOW I can hit very well (often perfectly) on the first try, and from there, I can go most places with no problems. I usually look for the first note if I'm going above half position, but after that it's smooth sailing with my eyes on the music or my bow.

I'm guessing, then, that Edgar Meyer is saying that it's not about things like superior craftsmanship of the bow? It sort of reminds of Marcus Miller still playing his 77 jazz bass (the sound is excellent, and signature, of course). I guess at the level of these players it doesn't matter much. Good lesson.

I saw Edgar play last week at Eastman Theatre, and not really being well acquainted with him or his music ahead of time I was pretty surprised when I saw him playing with fingerboard markers. The thing I was really surprised about, is all my fellow bass students and even my bass teacher (who is a very conservative old school classical dude) didn't say anything about them! And my bass teacher has a pet peeve about his students looking at the neck at all while they're playing too. It was very strange.

Personally, I think the markers are cool. Edgar's intonation is impeccable, and while my fellow bassists kept insisting that he "didn't need them anyway" I'm sure they're there for a reason. It's kind of like playing a fretless bass guitar with lines. Edgar plays some pretty crazy stuff that sounds great, and while I'm sure he could do it with no marks if that's what he chose to do, it's just one less thing to have to worry about while you're playing. And when you're playing at that level you don't want to have any worries about whether you're going to hit the right notes, you just want to do it.

I am not a veteran DB player, but I can't count the number of times I've spent hours practicing a hard passage to get great intonation on it, only to go into my lesson and screw it up anyway.

I'm going to see him + Chris Thile tomorrow night - I'll let you know if he does :)

Tom

Well, did he?

Well, did he?
Disappointly not! Maybe he bought a decent one...
Gig was hardcore though - both of them are outstanding virtuosos (virtuosi?). I'd never seen Edgar before and was just blown away by his playing!
Sitting in the cheap seats at the back, with a bad angle, I couldn't get a great view, but he was playing what looked like a small solo bass with big chunky position markers, which he studiously ignored throughout the entire performance...
I hope someone somewhere has recorded one of the concerts on this tour - I'd pay good money to hear it again :)

Tom

How about these arent facts?

The fact is I've played long enough to figure out that I havent internalized finger locations yet and probably won't any time soon so why not compensate and get on with playing....

Am I visually dependent? Sometimes... Sometimes not...
For me the dots are not an absolute but a reference point.
In other words, when things get funky (in a bad way) they get me to the vacinity from where I can make adjustments by ear.
And sometimes things just stay funky to my ear and using the dots, I find by my fellow players that the intonation was fine.

Everybody's brain is different and debates like this make me wonder how many good players may have given up because that sense of finger location never develops.

I wish I never needed them, but I dont want to quit cause I need them.

I take comfort when listening to tapes of my dad playing guitar decades ago. Sounds good to me and oh, are those capo marks on that Martin's neck?......


How about the fact that if you become visually dependent on the markings:

1. you have no ability at all to adjust for pitch if the climate, a bridge bump or something else makes the open string pitch change.

2. You will look like a total fool on someone else's bass that doesn't have them.

3. You will really struggle to sightread if you have to keep looking at the neck.

4. When you perform publically, it isn't very professional to present your listeners and fellow musicians with 60 minutes of the top of your head.

5. As mentioned, a parrallax will create problems for you. That is the position of your fingers with relation to the position of the tape will move depending on your point of view.

I don't have any real problems with markers. I know the idea of certain references is becoming more common. Maybr marks at the harmonic nodes or something. But every note seems overkill and more problematic than helpful.

Lissen, I am sticking with my dots! Even on my next fingerboard. Today I had a rehearsal in a small church wedged in like a sardine between a slightly out-of-tune baby grand, miked, open full stick, and a slightly more out-of-tune cellist. I need a bumper on the front end of my bow because it keeps hitting the piano. Behind me is the community choir with 16 variations of pitch and vibrato wide enough to pull a double-wide through and not touch the sides. Will the real pitch reference please stand up?

Anyone?

Alrighty then!

My teacher quotes Edgar as saying he looks at the dots when he is "90% sure" of the note. And also tells me that intonation is governed by arm position and we need to be able to hit it without looking. This has been really helpful. Then today the stage area was too small for my bass and stool so the stool had to be on the choir riser and the bass had to be elevated to compensate, which goofs up my scientifically calculated endpin height and by derivation, my arm position and furthermore my intonation.

I am really impressed with professional bassists' abilities to pick up any bass and play it in tune. The experienced ear deserves a lot of credit. Having a couple of markers is not anywhere as obsequious as if OSHA got a hold of your bass or anything but it can make the difference between a performance being smooth or sucky on the recording!

Imagine if OSHA did issue regulations for basses: we would have a strobe light on top of the scroll (requiring a Hazmat permit in case dead batteries must be discposed of), basses could not weigh in excess of 22 lbs or else two persons would be required to carry it, and we would all be dressed up like the Terminator: back braces, wrist supports, steel toe shoes, dust masks (for the perils of rosin dust!) and ballistic vests in case a stand partner pokes you with his bow. All scores would be required to be printed in tablature as well as standard notation so there could be no descrimination against orchestra players who can not read music. :eyebrow: Of course hearing protection so there is no chance you can hear what the celli are playing. And etc.

Imagine if OSHA did issue regulations for basses: we would have a strobe light on top of the scroll (requiring a Hazmat permit in case dead batteries must be discposed of), basses could not weigh in excess of 22 lbs or else two persons would be required to carry it, and we would all be dressed up like the Terminator: back braces, wrist supports, steel toe shoes, dust masks (for the perils of rosin dust!) and ballistic vests in case a stand partner pokes you with his bow. All scores would be required to be printed in tablature as well as standard notation so there could be no descrimination against orchestra players who can not read music. Of course hearing protection so there is no chance you can hear what the celli are playing. And etc.
Don't worry BF, we'll just pass the increased costs to the customer's ears...LOL

The quality of the sound is all I really care about. I hate doing a left hand shift and being sharp or flat. It seems no matter how much you think you know what your doing it happens sometimes, usually during the start of my solos. Hate it.

My coach showed me the trick of putting a stripe of clear fingernail polish where you want to mark. It's discrete and you can see the lights reflecting off your marks in a dark stage setting.

I was thinking of taking some scotch tape and folding it a bit glue side and making a short ridge say 1/32" and placing it at the 5th stop. Has anyone had any experience with a tactile marker?

[QUOTE=FredH]I hate doing a left hand shift and being sharp or flat. It seems no matter how much you think you know what your doing it happens sometimes, usually during the start of my solos. Hate it.

Try thinking of it as your arm position then before thinking of where the finger hits...I've been working on that and it really helps. then do a quick check of where your hand is compared to the neck heel or nut - you know dive to home plate and back? hard to describe but i think most bassists do it anyway without thinking about it.

How about these aren't facts?

The fact is I've played long enough to figure out that I haven't internalized finger locations yet and probably won't any time soon so why not compensate and get on with playing....

Am I visually dependent? Sometimes... Sometimes not...
For me the dots are not an absolute but a reference point.
In other words, when things get funky (in a bad way) they get me to the vicinity from where I can make adjustments by ear.
And sometimes things just stay funky to my ear and using the dots, I find by my fellow players that the intonation was fine.

Everybody's brain is different and debates like this make me wonder how many good players may have given up because that sense of finger location never develops.

I wish I never needed them, but I didn,t want to quit cause I need them.

I take comfort when listening to tapes of my dad playing guitar decades ago. Sounds good to me and oh, are those capo marks on that Martin's neck?......

It probably isn't fair to compare the capo to marking a db board. As much as it allows you to "cheat" with transposition, it is also a way of using particular chord form without regard to key. (to some degree) So many riffs and licks are not simply more difficult, but instead impossible without this approach.

I really don't have issue with markings in various forms. I absolutely want the music to happen first. Although marking every single chromatic up to the octave seems a little overkill.

I have a single side marker on my bass at the octave using these: (they look great BTW)

http://www.fretware.com/catalog2/product_info.php?products_id=30

At various times off and on, I have had them at the fifth, seventh and/or ninth stops as well, depending on the challenge of the music I was doing and my level of confidence.

My point is (as it was in that post as well) that "if you become visually dependent on the markings . . ." Given that, I think my statements stand up. The poster asked for counter arguments for marking up the bass. I offered them.

All are certainly debatable, but I don't know how you can watch a conductor or read a sheet if your eyes are glued to the fb.

Everyone sneaks a look now and again. My teacher has been known to kill the lights in his den/practice studio just to tick my off!! :)

Actually, most of us already have natural markers. I used to use the flames in the grain of the neck as reference points. G/C on the E and A are on a knot-like flame on my neck. D is fuinger width past the next stripe on the A string, and so forth.

IMO, they're great landmarks, but after a while I've weaned myself offa it and now I can get better ntonation by trusting my ear.

A long while back, I told the story of a bassist ( an excellent one) in my area, who would drill tiny holes as markers in the thumb position areas with a jewelers drill. He could feel the rough edges around the holes.
It's interesting to hear all the different ways players try to get around intonation problems....i'm not perfect, but I find it rather sad that ears seem to be the last thing on the list to use to fix intonation problems.

Fair enough... The thread is called perils of fingerboard markings...
Thankfully the number of posts indicates I'm not the only one that saw the thread as asking the larger question "Is it or isnt it ok to...."
I wouldn't want to post a "reasons to use markers thread."

So my post was in that context. I just thought it should be recognized that we all play under different circumstances be they practice time related or thought process related or both...And the answer to the larger question is "what ever works for the player".


By the way, dear old dad was just plain cheating :)
...worked long hours and had precious little time with his guitar. Similar to my situation. (And no cracks about having time to post on this forum.....) Its usually when the family is asleep..and I should be too.


It probably isn't fair to compare the capo to marking a db board. As much as it allows you to "cheat" with transposition, it is also a way of using particular chord form without regard to key. (to some degree) So many riffs and licks are not simply more difficult, but instead impossible without this approach.

I really don't have issue with markings in various forms. I absolutely want the music to happen first. Although marking every single chromatic up to the octave seems a little overkill.

I have a single side marker on my bass at the octave using these: (they look great BTW)

http://www.fretware.com/catalog2/product_info.php?products_id=30

At various times off and on, I have had them at the fifth, seventh and/or ninth stops as well, depending on the challenge of the music I was doing and my level of confidence.

My point is (as it was in that post as well) that "if you become visually dependent on the markings . . ." Given that, I think my statements stand up. The poster asked for counter arguments for marking up the bass. I offered them.

All are certainly debatable, but I don't know how you can watch a conductor or read a sheet if your eyes are glued to the fb.

Everyone sneaks a look now and again. My teacher has been known to kill the lights in his den/practice studio just to tick my off!! :)

I went to the Fretware site and didn't really find a description of the "Microdots" as far as how many and the size, other than the picture with the penny for comparison.

Are 14 "Dots" included for the price quoted?

Thanks for the info, and regards,

Alex, (aka pllybass)

By the way, dear old dad was just plain cheating :)...worked long hours and had precious little time with his guitar.

Your Dad made his music and presumably took great joy in it. I'm sure he didn't lose any sleep about the capo. "Cheating" just doesn't enter into it.

If you need to look at the neck, look at the neck! Just play in tune. It's music so the ears rule at the end of the day one way or t'other.

If Brad Opland gives a lecture/demo at the 2005 ISB convention, check the dots on his Hawkes' fingerboard. If it is good enough for the CSO, it's good enough for whoever feels the need, IMO

Precisely why I havent lost sleep over the dots on my fingerboard.
The term cheating was not to be taken as a negative.
It was a term he used so I'm comfortable repeating it.

Your Dad made his music and presumably took great joy in it. I'm sure he didn't lose any sleep about the capo. "Cheating" just doesn't enter into it.

If you need to look at the neck, look at the neck! Just play in tune. It's music so the ears rule at the end of the day one way or t'other.

I went to the Fretware site and didn't really find a description of the "Microdots" as far as how many and the size, other than the picture with the penny for comparison.

Are 14 "Dots" included for the price quoted?

Thanks for the info, and regards,

Alex, (aka pllybass)


They are 1/8" diameter. I don't remember how many were in the package. I still have some left. One or two came off here and there and cracked a couple trying to get the backing off.

Unless you touch the neck or look really close, you can't tell that they are not inlaid. If you want them off, you can get them off just by popping them off with your fingernail.

A pretty neat product if you ask me.

BTW, as a guitarist also, I use the term "cheating" as it relates to the capo absolutely tongue in cheek. I use one all the time for various reasons.

I did run across a guy no too long ago that actually used two. One full one and another that he had shortened to only capo one or two strings to create a thumb drone string. It was an interesting approach.

i started playing standup yesterday. i have markers on the 2nd 5th and 7th frets.

http://www.fretware.com/catalog2/product_info.php?products_id=30

:)
I am a jeweler by trade. It should be noted that abalone dust is quite dangerous if it gets into your lungs. If you are going to cut this material, you should wear a respirator and hold the shell in water while cutting. This stuff can make you very sick, and even kill you. :bawl:
Dwight

i started playing standup yesterday. i have markers on the 2nd 5th and 7th frets.

No you don't........

Say goodbye to those frets.

This is an old thread, but I'd like to say a few words about Edgar.

I've asked him a number of these questions, and he's generally happy to respond. The bow? He's been using the same $10 bow since he was in grade school. It's broken in six places. He says he knows it's "a piece of ****" but that "you get used to things you've been using all your life." He says he likes it because it doesn't bounce, and he can play as loud as he likes without hitting the stick to the hair.

As for the dots, they were put on the fingerboard at his request by Robertson's. He says they won't help somebody who has bad intonation, but they seem to take him from "94% to 96%," which apparently justifies the expense.

I don't usually mark my fingerboard, but I have no problems with looking. My intonation is considerably better when I look. I don't care about "looking professional," because music has nothing to do with image. The important thing is the sound that your instrument produces. If it's out of tune, then the game's over.

A couple of months ago, I asisted a jazz gig and there was this bass player who had what looked like a czech ease and had position markers. I'm not talking about 5th, 7th and 12th(octave) stops, no... I'm talking about marks on each and every single stop (half tone) through the fingerboard! Now, I'm rather new to Real Bass and still get out of tune quite often, as a matter of fact I do look at the fingerboard quite a bit (no markings on mine) to get an idea of where I'm at. But markings all the way through the fingerboard? C'mon now, that really felt like he was cheating! He might as well get a fretted upright! :scowl:

A couple of months ago, I asisted a jazz gig and there was this bass player who had what looked like a czech ease and had position markers. I'm not talking about 5th, 7th and 12th(octave) stops, no... I'm talking about marks on each and every single stop (half tone) through the fingerboard! Now, I'm rather new to Real Bass and still get out of tune quite often, as a matter of fact I do look at the fingerboard quite a bit (no markings on mine) to get an idea of where I'm at. But markings all the way through the fingerboard? C'mon now, that really felt like he was cheating! He might as well get a fretted upright! :scowl:
Or a fretless bass guitar...

Was thinking about this thread the last few days...got a new fingerboard on one of my basses which used to have markers (steel, inlaid in the e-string side), now, no markers...i have 2 basses, 2" difference in string length. I just found that over several months, I forgot about the markers. I can switch between the basses without too much trouble. Funny, just started focusing on other issues and 'assigned' intonation to auto-pilot, and it started happening. I think a large part of what developed, once I quit thinking about it, was the belief that it's possible to play the bass in tune.

I think a large part of what developed, once I quit thinking about it, was the belief that it's possible to play the bass in tune.

I've been getting a peek over the horizon over this sort of thing lately too. I've obsessed about intonation for a long time and will probably continue to obsess over it forever, but I've been singing along with those scale/arpeggio recordings I picked up a long time ago in the car (man I'm tired of singing with poor intonation) and have been enjoying better results with the bass also...not gimacing so much when the "here comes the harmonic/open string where the hell am I" evaluation happens *LOL*

It's definitely a nice feeling after all this time :bassist:

Lately I've been thinking about putting one marker on my bass for orchestral playing (where it is so difficult to hear sometimes). The one place I feel as though it would help, surprisingly enough, is the low A on the E string. I just can't hear myself well enough on that Ab, A, or Bb. For me, intonation at that spot is much harder than in thumb position.

Theo, how about a simple temporary FB pencil mark? It's been suggested on the forums before.

If I'm working on a piece with a big shift or something, I often will put in a pencil mark on that one particular note. I find that by the time the pencil wears off, I've trained my arm to hit the note well enough anyway.

Edgar's got the inlays, but they cost him a few thousand bucks.

I don't think I would ever get inlays, but I might consider putting a little pencil mark at that A before an orchestra concert.

Pencil marks sound ok to me specially because even the slightest change in the bass will make the markings off. For example, the bridge tilting a bit, a string detuning in the middle of the piece, wood expanding and contracting with changing seasons, etc etc... pencil marks you can rub them off and replace them in the correct place and even try placing them in strange places like Db on the E string if it's what you need for a specific reason.

Heh, I'm going to probably take the tape (had two, one for first position, but that was wayy off, and the other for uh..not sure what it is...would be like the 7th fret...or something. G string would be a D...) off soon...Been playin the DB for 2-3 months now and am feeling pretty confident.

But then to the girl who stepped on my toe the other day (she is um...a big girl) on purpose because she just oculdn't annoy me (apathy knows no bounds!) taking the tapes off would be interesting, but then she'd never notice because she never plays in orchestra anyways...

Ah, for some reason this is just making me GAS for a fretless electric...without the markers.

I don't use marks of any sort, at least not ones that I made. I just look at the flame/grain patterns on my neck. They're my landmarks . I know where B on the E string is cuz it has this unique flame there and I know it's roughly 1/4" above the grain. The rest I zero in on the right pitch using my ear.

Who needs pencil marks or tape? Everything is already there. When performing, figuring this stuff out takes too long and I just go by my ear for everything. By now I've pretty much weaned myself off of the grain marks. I dont' really use them anymore and noone knows the diff. My teacher never knew I was using this to my advantage.

Ears are great, but when you are in a bass section with 7 or 8 players it can get damn near impossible to discern your own sound from that of the guys around you. I think it is especially tough with low frequencies to tell where a given sound originated, although I could be wrong (given my limited scientific knowledge). It sounds like everything blends.

I'm a beginner on upright and I have the same dot markers as electric bass from the F all the way up to the octave.

The way I see it is, anything to help me sound better when starting out is a good thing. I am confident that I wont use them forever on the basis that I do use my ears first and foremost and that I dont fret stare on electric.. well, I cant whilst reading a chart

Just know that your muscle memory for where the notes are is developing in your unconscious every time you play, practicing or live in rehearsal, whether you can hear yourself or not, and decide if having a few marks is an expedient to getting the clearest message through to that memory function.

When I need one for learning something (at the risk of contradicting that I just posted I've mostly forgotten them), I use a shameless blob of white out and don't give a rat's rear who sees it. They appear and disappear on my bass in different locations from time to time; at least people can tell I've been practicing.

I started out on double bass four months ago, and I don't see any problems with having some markings - what so ever I had plenty of them in the beginning, but I have removed most of them now. Your muscle memory develops - no matter if you look at markings or not. On that I am certain!

These days I'm doing alot of fourts, fifths and sixsts from the Ray Brown book. I look at the sheet all the time - and I'm doing fine! Not under any circumstanses do I regret using some markings.

Reviving an old post, but:

Just put markers on my bass yesterday with WiteOut. Up the middle of the fingerboard and also on the edge of the fingerboard in the lower register. I'll let you know how it goes, but for the day and a half of practice that I have with them, it's pretty cool.

Roger that! After weeks of trying out new basses for potential purchase, my intonation went completely up the spout, and the image of where notes are turned to fuzz, so my own bass just got a new roadmap in wite-out :scowl:

Reviving an old post, but:

Just put markers on my bass yesterday with WiteOut. Up the middle of the fingerboard and also on the edge of the fingerboard in the lower register. I'll let you know how it goes, but for the day and a half of practice that I have with them, it's pretty cool.

OK for you....you wimp!
You can still stay at my house when you come to Denver this summer...You can also use one of my wonderful basses, but if I find any wite out on any fingerboards, i'll kick your little ass outta here in a NY minute!!!:eyebrow:

Ya never know -- I might convince you otherwise :)

It's all still an experiment, but so far it's very cool. I have a few gigs and sessions coming up and I'll see how it goes.

Wow. A week ago I begun practicing intonation exercises blindly. It was awful at first, but already my intonation has improved dramatically, taking the eye out of the equation. I'm learning more about muscle memory and LISTENING more. Now I can learn to read music and be in tune simultaneously.

I saw that I would often look at the fingerboard to intonate. No good. For me, it's only good when you can't hear yourself well.

I think that it's only really good for hitting parts of the neck cold, awkward jumps, etc. Even then it will only get you in the neighborhood. I've never looked at the neck when I play, so this is kind of a new toy for me.

I've never looked at the neck when I play, so this is kind of a new toy for me.
I hope you will keep us posted on how it goes:)

I think that it's only really good for hitting parts of the neck cold, awkward jumps, etc. Even then it will only get you in the neighborhood. I've never looked at the neck when I play, so this is kind of a new toy for me.


so do you go by feel? I agree with you, it'll work for big jumps; I try not to look at all and if i do, I go by the grain imperfections on my side of the neck. they correspond roughly to certain notes which help orient me when I gotta get there fast.

I'm not really ready to comment too much on how I'm using them so far, as I dont' really know. Until now I've been working on 'The Force' (, Luke) and have had pretty decent luck, no matter the bass.

So far the two things that I've noticed are: 1) It's already opened up parts of the neck in the lower register. I'm not really using the dots much when I play, but I have been paying attention to them, mostly in the mirror, when I practice which has emblazoned a picture in my head that seems to help. 2) The upper register has really opened up, again, owing to the picture. These dots are actually more usable while you're playing as they're right in your face. I would say that I picked up about a 3rd in comfortable range (each string) almost instantly.

The Force and your ear (and practice, practice, practice) are still the only things that are going to get you in tune, but now that I've put these on there I realize how silly it's been (for the last 25 years) to not access one of human being's strongest senses -- sight.

The jury's still out, though. I'll let you know as this experiment evolves.

I'm not really ready to comment too much on how I'm using them so far, as I dont' really know. Until now I've been working on 'The Force' (, Luke) and have had pretty decent luck, no matter the bass.

So far the two things that I've noticed are: 1) It's already opened up parts of the neck in the lower register. I'm not really using the dots much when I play, but I have been paying attention to them, mostly in the mirror, when I practice which has emblazoned a picture in my head that seems to help. 2) The upper register has really opened up, again, owing to the picture. These dots are actually more usable while you're playing as they're right in your face. I would say that I picked up about a 3rd in comfortable range (each string) almost instantly.

The Force and your ear (and practice, practice, practice) are still the only things that are going to get you in tune, but now that I've put these on there I realize how silly it's been (for the last 25 years) to not access one of human being's strongest senses -- sight.

The jury's still out, though. I'll let you know as this experiment evolves.


OK Dr. Evil!!! :)

I can see how they are like complimentary disciplines - as I own an NS EUB which has dots all over the fingerboard and a Double Bass which I am practicing a lot more and has nothing!!

So - on the EUB, I can play solos all over the neck and feel pretty comfortable about starting a solo anywhere - but on the DB I've really got think about where I'm going and can get stuck in places where I'm not sure where to go next! :hmm:

Hopefully - I'll feel the same about both...eventually!! ;)

i started playing standup yesterday. i have markers on the 2nd 5th and 7th frets.

I just started re-reading this thread and found some of these things "strange" - so in my experience ,this is exacty where you don't need help, as the end of the body gives you what you are calling 7 and then 5 is under you hands in this position - you can also check both of these with harmonics?

As to "2" - it's very easy to hear this as a fifth against the open string below and it's never been a problem for me ...?

Now where I could do with some dots is between '7' and Octave - then above the octave - but maybe that's just me or my bass...? ;)

What you are doing, Bruce, is understanding the string in its own terms: harmonics, the relationship to other open strings. Once you have these roadmaps in place -- visually or aurally -- you're riding the thing without training wheels.

I can think of two ways markers would help me in my situation:

1) Playing solo I tend to drift sharp. I know I can throw an open string in there to check out where I am but a visual could do the same thing without the duck fart of a bad note;

2) Notes "out of the blue". For me this isn't necessarily some crazy leap into the third octave. Playing bluegrass stuff in C, for example, I'll often do the root-five using the first C on the G string, then use the lower open G for the five. If the C isn't right on you get duck farts for the first few cycles until you tune it in. Not so good when you have to hit that sucker cold from a dead silence, as in the start of a tune.

Keep us posted on your experimentation, Ray.

What you are doing, Bruce, is understanding the string in its own terms: harmonics, the relationship to other open strings. Once you have these roadmaps in place -- visually or aurally -- you're riding the thing without training wheels.



But that's not what I was saying - I was saying that I could use some marks - but not where that person was suggesting!!

So far I have to say that I'm REALLY liking the markers. I don't stare at them all of the time, but enough to warrant having them.

Random thoughts, observations:


Cold jumps are a helluva a lot easier now.

They're nearly useless if you're sight reading, so absolutely depending on them is a bad idea. They're a TOOL...

Parts of the neck, particularly the upper register, are opening up nicely

WiteOut isn't perhaps the best for the dots up the middle of the fingerboard. Two have disappeared, the first dot (C on the A string) and the high A on the D string (where I'm plucking). The rest are already looking pretty filthy.

Some physical habits that I have now have a picture to go with them. Now I have a large basket of things to fix that will do much to improve my intonation through accuracy of shifts.

One of the first thoughts/experiences that I had and it still maintains is the I immediately felt foolish for going so long while completely ignoring one of human's greatest strengths, which is eyesight.

It's those times when you might worry about a shift, jump, cold note that you will find markers indispensable.

In situations where you can't hear yourself clearly, the dots get you close enough that you can adjust by ear before the note gets out front.

Bass players tend to roll their eyes and giggle when they see them. Until I give a little demonstration.

So...right now the only marking on my bass is on the high A on the G string, because in one solo piece I'm learning its the first time I've ventured up that high.

.

Bass players tend to roll their eyes and giggle when they see them. Until I give a little demonstration.
[/LIST]
Hmph. Next thing you know, they'll be using capos. JUST KIDDING!;)

Actually, Ray, you might give a thought as to whether it would be advisable for beginners or intermediates to use the markers? As you say, it is a tool, and I don't want to get dependant on the markers in place of my ears. But I do want to play in tune.

The markers don't get you in tune, but help get you nearer to the note so whatever adjustment that you have to make is a lot smaller, on average.

I'm not sure that I have an opinion as to whether it'd be good or bad for beginners and intermediate students. My instinct tells me that it would be too easy for markers to be a crutch if introduced early on, but at the same time it would serve to de-mystify the neck.

One big advantage that fretless / buttonless instruments (fiddles, voice) have over some other instruments is that you really have to develop your ears to play. The advantage that pianos, horns, guitars and the like is that you can digest new material more quickly -- piano, especially -- the down side of this being that you can play a lot of crap that you're not hearing.

Hmm. Dunno.

I came to DB from electric where everything is laid out, and when I learned, I insisted on not using markers. I actually tried to avoid looking at the neck at all and would practice scales in a darkened room just to get my intonation happening. But now that I'm getting a handle on things, I'm starting to think that maybe I could have saved a lot of time by using markers. All my electrics have markers and that doesn't seem to hurt me. So why not on the upright?

Once I started out I used to have a few markers. Now I´ve taken them all off, though, as I barely ever use them. I can´t see how using markers hurt me in any way. They made me hit the right places faster in the beginning. But after playing scales and intervals every day since, I don´t need to see that much on the neck anymore. And, as I do a lot of sightreading, I have to look on the notes anyway.

I really see how markers can kome in handy when doing large jumps, especially high up, as you have very few physical marks there.

I dunno about the idea of using markers right from the start. As you've already mentioned, Ray, on our instrument you've gotta develop and use the ear, markers or not. The ear has to override the eye and run the show, and the bassist has to have the skill to do that. I think the bassist should probably learn that the hard way and develop some independence. Then throw in the markers later to help solve some practical problems.

Exactly the way you're doing it, Ray, except maybe earlier for the markers?

BTW, at what positions have you placed markers?

Yeah, maybe 25 years is a little long to wait :) I put them at the normal guitar spots.

I think I might try putting markers on my bass. I feel ok with my intonation in thumb or the first several positions, but I'm starting to move into TP and everything beyond E on the G string gets real iffy quick.

I used to look at some grain marks in my neck (I think i've already said that in my thread) as a landmark for stuff around 3nd position but I don't pay attention to that anymore. One thing is interesting, I think I tend to play slower if I have to look at the marks. If I have my intonation down, I can focus more on my playing (thus hopefully making better music) than where my fingers should go. I'm starting to be able to some simple cold jumps in places that I used to have to look at the grain marks.

Anyways, I'm thinking of going with the pencil. If it's too hard to see then I'll do the whiteout thing.

Anyways, I'm thinking of going with the pencil. If it's too hard to see then I'll do the whiteout thing.

I couldn't imagine putting something as permanent as whiteout on my bass. It's kind of like marking in music with a pen. Besides, if you ever need a bridge adjustment or repair, those marks may need to move. Instead, go with the pencil mark, or an easily removable sticker. Honestly....I don't frown on markers on instruments at all, but those heavy markers, like the blue tape that stretches all the way across the fingerboard, really hurt my eyes, and draw attention from the player. Something discreet, even if it isn't completely hidden from the audience, should draw less negative attention.

The WiteOut comes off pretty well with a Zippo fluid dampened paper towel.

My thoughts on the movement thing is that you should have the bass properly setup first before doing anything permanent, of course. Over the course of weather changes and fingerboard planings the dots may 'move' a bit, but I don't see this as a big deal. I never change my string height by much, so I don't see this as a factor for my situation. If the bridge gets bumped right before the gig any physical reference is going to be kaput, so no biggie there, either.

Like they say, though, the car ain't sold 'til you see the tail lights heading over the hill. I'll be a confirmed 'dot guy' when the drill hits the fingerboard. For now I think I'll be on the WiteOut (fingernail polish, whatever) plan for a few months and see how I feel about it then.

:)

. Besides, if you ever need a bridge adjustment or repair, those marks may need to move.


I'm curious how this works with players with inlays (like Edgar Meyer).

If you accept the idea that the markers are a secondary aid to an already competent musician -- in exactly the same way electronic tuners are -- then the counter-argument that the markers aren't located with sufficient precision, or that the bridge may move a bit, is an irrelevant argument. The ear rules.

I've always been pretty opposed to markings of any kind. I find that for kids it really makes them rely on their eyes and they never learn to develop their ears. Of course there are teaching methods that can avoid this but most of my younger private students coming from a school program have come to rely too much on the visual.

After seeing that Ray was trying them (a player I have a tremendous amount of respect for) I started to rethink. I have been playing for 15 years. Until now I have never tried markings. I find myself frustrated in a loud, boomy, or dynamically dense situations though. I tried markings the other night in one of these situations. I guess it made enough of a difference that I got a few positive comments from the other guys I was playing with.

I don't think I will ever change my feelings on markings for beginners. Ears rule. The analogy to an electric tuner was a good one though. Tools. Our ears and minds still need to be in control but a little help in the adverse playing conditions that a professional faces are handy.

I used whiteout on the side of the fingerboard at the
3rd, 4th, and 7th position when I was learning and that
helped but the marks were removed as soon as possible
( within 6 months ) when the ears took over.

I don't think I will ever change my feelings on markings for beginners. Ears rule.... Our ears and minds still need to be in control but a little help in the adverse playing conditions that a professional faces are handy. That's why I like pencil. It's hard to see unless you look closely, and after playing for a bit you might even rub the pencil off with your fingertips accidentally - which means that you can't absolutely use it as a crutch all the time.

I'm just using it to get and idea of how far I'm off and to see the physical distance/position where a particular note is. Works for me... I like marking up a difficult note or two, just as long as I'm not looking for those marks when I'm playing faster.

i saw a local guy playing with a quartet a few weeks ago. he had dark red or brown tape in every position on his bass. it was the usual WWH deal (all the way from first position to the end of FB). i found that it really started to annoy me, the guy was constantly staring at his FB, i think that is what annoyed me most.
i could understand a few less obvious marks but this was just out of hand. i mentioned something about tape marks when i first started taking lessons and my teacher quickly shot that idea down......said i just have to develop better technique and a better ear, i'm glad he did now.

i saw a local guy playing with a quartet a few weeks ago. he had dark red or brown tape in every position on his bass. ....

Another advantage of the Rabbath system- you only need three pieces of tape ;-)

When I moved from my old beat up King, which had two markers in the edge of the FB, to my Romanian bass, I quit looking at the instrument- and my intonation improved.

i saw a local guy playing with a quartet a few weeks ago......

I've been going to my local Jazz club every week for the last 8 - 10 years and must have seen hundreds of different DB players and I've never seen one with any markings on the fingerboard...:hmm:

I've only seen one player use them in other situations - so there's a guy who got a 5-string bass made for him and I saw it the year before and it was a lovely bass - but last year I saw him again at Jazz Summerschool and he had had dots put all over the fingerboard - it really spoiled the look of the bass. :(

I'm curious how this works with players with inlays (like Edgar Meyer).

Edgar Meyer had those inlays put in just to stir things up. He doesn't need them.

This thread's always fun for me to read. I guess I've been learning to play the bass for around 4 years now, and I started with masking tape dots on the side of my fingerboard.

I don't have them or use them now. I've gotten a lot more familiar with the bass since then. Even so, I still struggle with playing in tune and dots are still the same magic bullet they were when I started.

Edgar Meyer had those inlays put in just to stir things up. He doesn't need them.I'll bet a buck that he uses them.

I'll bet a million. He told me himself that he uses them.

As for beginners, I usually have all of my students use tape (I now use black electrical, they tend to feel for it since they can't see it so well) at the beginning of their studies. After they become comfortable with first position songs I start removing the tape. So far I have had no students regress to poor intonation. As they get into higher positions I move the tape up and then remove it as they grow accustomed to the new positions.

As for myself, I don't use it anymore. But I have considered it. :bassist:

I'll bet a million. He told me himself that he uses them.

REALLY?! Wow. That's news to me! He's quoted in an interview as saying he doesn't, and that he had them put on the bass just to drive poeple nuts, and that they're not even accurate! Ah well, so much for interviews!

EDIT: I've only ever seen beginners use markings. But edgar sounds like a beginner anyways..

All you have to do is watch him play. He's always looking at his hands.

Edgar Meyer had those inlays put in just to stir things up. He doesn't need them.

I don't think he needs 'em, but, I think he uses them.
A hell of of a big difference...... no??

oh i can see school kids needing them. I'm 18 and grade8, but every now and then i'll need a pencil mark, to be on the safe side i guess. But i'll never draw in a C sharp, has to be a C or a D and I work off that. Is funny how we all work, but you'd expect a well-trained cellist to go without...

Ok I haven't read all the posts in this thread so forgive me if this has been covered before:

I caught Edgar Meyer with the LA Chamber orchestra the other day and it was the first time I have seen him play live I'm ashamed to admit.

Noticing his fingerboard dots, I got the urge to experiment so here's what I did.

Masking tape + hole punch gives you instant dots that look inlayed from a foot away, don't move, don't interfere with your fingers, and don't leave much gummy residue when removed.

The verdict?

Dots rock. I found for me the most usefull are at the Octave and harmonic points to the end of the fingerboard. I put them between the G and D string. They allow me to get within a few cents of high notes totally unprepared and they help develope a mental image of the harmonic locations. That's all. They do not help me play more in tune for stepwise passages - in fact I can't look at them sometimes - but are great for leaps up one string.

-Jon

i caught patitucci a week or so ago. sat right in the front row and got there early. he was onstage alone tuning up. he then turned his back to the audience and i saw him pick up what looked like a pencil and then was playing a few notes but you couldnt really see what was happening because his back was turned. during the show the lights were such that the graphite pencil lines reflected the light perfectly and i could see then from where i was sitting almost as if they were lit up. i checked with the bassist sitting next to me and he saw them too. amazing... i was shocked. he definately used them because he went through the trouble of putting them there before the show. i noticed him using 2 of them in particular during a solo arco piece. there were about 4 or 5 marks but i didnt notice where or when he was using the others.

Update: I've spent a decent amount of time practicing and playing in a jazz ensemble class using my NSD bass. I'm to the point where I'm tempted to have them installed on my regular bass or another practice bass (I'm switching to a Yamaha Silent Bass). I had a great session today and was very happy with my soloing (finally!). The dots certainly made a difference as I was able to play more music. Last week I tried using the DB and it was harder to solo as I was afraid of intonation mistakes.

The dots by no means are exact; it still requires intonation practice to get it right. The dots remove alot of guess work and eventually I would think I would not be dependent on them. In certain areas, the dots are completely inaccurate and I have to be able to play without looking at them. Its' really wierd... sometimes I refer to the dots, sometimes I don't.

If you ask me to play without looking at the board, I have no problems playing anything in half position. Below that, intonation starts to wander a bit. Get me into thumb position and I'll get lost at my current state, but once I get a reference spot, I can play without looking at the dots. I think I'm becoming a believer. I can see myself going beyond the point to not need the dots anymore.

If I were to get dots, I'd prob have them done in ebony so they're not so visible. Also, i think my improvement with intonation has also had benefits due to the dots on the NSD. The dots help with muscle memory. Combine that with intonation practice, I dont' see how you could lose, really.

I'd never played an instrument without keys or frets or fingerholes of some type. (Although if you play Baroque recorder in an ensemble, you automatically learn to dial in a note by rolling a finger slightly.)

I noticed right away that on my upright, fretless bass instrument each string had its own invisible frets, and they didn't line up perfectly. So, even though I put 1/4" office dots on the side of the fingerboard, I'm quite aware that they are only approximate. But they were very useful at first because my left hand had a tendency to gradually climb the neck as I played, sharpening notes. A glance at the dots showed me this and helped my ear adjust to the right pitches. (After all, I didn't want to listen to a slightly sharp pitch so long that I would begin to accept it.)

I think my ear just gradually began to take over, though, which is what I was hoping would happen. I do notice that I still start off each piece by checking my hand position roughly against the dots, but my ear pretty quickly kicks in.

Another marking I did, that I haven't heard of before, is to tape a short piece of plastic whisk broom bristle on the underside of the neck for my thumb to feel. I did this because my thumb had a tendency to move toward the nut all the time and I wanted its home position to be beneath and between my 1st and 2nd fingers in first position. I used a very long piece of that old-fashioned glossy cellophane tape along the neck so I wouldn't feel anything but the little "speed bump" that the bristle made.

I really don't have any problem keeping the dots, though. I use them less and less, which is good, but not being a pro, I doubt that I will ever get to the point where I don't want to see them there at all. Maybe I'll switch from yellow dots to less conspicuous blue ones, I dunno. I don't care a fig whether people can see them (I've seen pros using some pretty ugly markings on masking tape), I just don't want them to be a distraction to me or to anyone else.

Update: I've spent a decent amount of time practicing and playing in a jazz ensemble class using my NSD bass. I'm to the point where I'm tempted to have them installed on my regular bass or another practice bass (I'm switching to a Yamaha Silent Bass). I had a great session today and was very happy with my soloing (finally!). The dots certainly made a difference as I was able to play more music. Last week I tried using the DB and it was harder to solo as I was afraid of intonation mistakes.

The dots by no means are exact; it still requires intonation practice to get it right. The dots remove alot of guess work and eventually I would think I would not be dependent on them. In certain areas, the dots are completely inaccurate and I have to be able to play without looking at them. Its' really wierd... sometimes I refer to the dots, sometimes I don't.

If you ask me to play without looking at the board, I have no problems playing anything in half position. Below that, intonation starts to wander a bit. Get me into thumb position and I'll get lost at my current state, but once I get a reference spot, I can play without looking at the dots. I think I'm becoming a believer. I can see myself going beyond the point to not need the dots anymore.

If I were to get dots, I'd prob have them done in ebony so they're not so visible. Also, i think my improvement with intonation has also had benefits due to the dots on the NSD. The dots help with muscle memory. Combine that with intonation practice, I dont' see how you could lose, really.


I had the opposite experience, although we may be coming to the same conclusions? So I went from BG to using an NS CR5 and then went on to a real DB.

So I have found that with the NS bass - the lack of a body meant there were no reference points higher up the neck and in most gig situations, it was impossible to see the dots, which were basically just a distraction and I was all-too-aware that when I was playing unison lines with piano say, that my intonation was out. :hmm:

On my DB however - the body and where it meets the neck, plus the overall feel of having that large instrument, means there are ample reference points and I am never worried about where I am on the neck. I never felt the need for any dots and I happily aware that when I play the same unison lines that I was fluffing on the NS bass - I am in tune with the piano! :)

A few years ago, the associate principal of the Met had Arnold Schnitzer inlay some dots on his fingerboards. Certainly not out of need. They looked so cool, his students started having them put on their basses. When my Walnut bass was finished, I had one dot installed at the octave. I used to be a totally anal anti-dot purist. Not any more. There are some treacherous leaps in some pieces. The dot anchors me in space; I don't spend my time staring at it.
Unanticipated benefit: it's an immediate detector of bridge creep.

my experience is that carefully practicing big shifts gets them in tune. the notes seem to be in the same place every time i pick up the bass, so as long as i maintain the tactile awareness of my intonation, it seems to be okay. i'm way more concerned with the resonance of the bass. i would not expect a dot to tell me if my instrument is fully resonating.

FWIW, I own 3 uprights. The baby bass and the Kay (which I currently use for all my jazz gigs,) have absolutely no marks. The big orchestral bass has several marks on it, which allow me to consistently play any single note on the bass far more accurately. For the Bach 'cello suites the whiteout dots are an invaluable tool. Have you ever heard another bass player play arco as in-tune as Edgar Meyer?

Have you ever heard another bass player play arco as in-tune as Edgar Meyer?

Sure, plenty. Does Edgar really use the dots though? I've never noticed him actually looking at them.

I don't mind dots as long as you can hear the note in your head before you play it and with your ears when you start playing it. I remember keeping pencil marks on the octave and high D harmonic for quite awhile in college. Certain passages will always be easier with some sort of visual cue.

He uses them constantly. In the dozen or so times I've heard Edgar play, I've never heard him play a single note out of tune. Can't say that for the overwhelming majority of top level soloists out there. For that matter, I recently heard a CD from a cat in a west coast orchestra and was blown away by his pitch. Looked him up. Dots on the neck.:D

Some consider marking the neck to be cheating... I'd rather see someone cheat than hear them play out of tune. What's the point of being prideful when you're hurting your audience's ears?

For 80% of the music I play the marks are completely unnecessary... for jazz I usually play with my eyes closed, anyways.;)

I am a BG player (fretted, and fretless with dots), trying to expand my skill set: picked up an EUB, and have been spending considerable time here, following many DB threads.

Can't help but make a few comments - simply some things, more easily noticeable by an outsider.

* "Dots=cheating". Are we in a contest? Is the point to "play without looking", or to "play beautiful music"? I'm for the second one...

* Without marks - yes, you rely on other things: your ear, your muscle memory, and - yes, dots, under the guise of woodgrain marks.

Now - how does exactly a good ear help you hit that first note cold? We are bassists, not guitarists, and most of time do not have an option to stay behind the beat - we must be on the beat, and hit the right note! Dots win.

Many here admit they are lost in upper registers. As BG player, I find it strange - not an issue in BG world, at least, not for me, with my dots. One of the first things a BG player is advised to learn is *full neck* range, in and out, all 24 frets (i.e., two-octave length on each string). Dots win.

Long jumps - e.g. half-scale along the neck. I cannot do it precisely without dots. And, as far as I can see, neither can many people who posted here (judging by their own words). Dots win.

Noisy gigs in dark rooms - ever played those? Cannot rely on your ear fully, and woodgrain/pencil are not visible. Dots win.

Irritating look of a bassist looking at his hands... The only comment I can make - I'm into it for the music, not the looks. And you?

* Muscle memory. Yes, once fully developed - it'll take you to _any_ note, and your ear will correct little intonation imperfections on the spot. But... Until many years have passed and a player have developed that - dots win. I want to play out all this time, not keep woodshedding until I'm perfect.

http://riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/popcorn.jpg

Seriously, you are entitled to your own opinion. But as a farily experienced player, I have to add that playing by sight on the DB makes about as much sense to me as the idea of walking while staring at the ground where your feet are going instead of keeping your head up and looking at the bigger picture version of the terrain around you. YMMV. :)

Noobs can argue endlessly about markings, that is until you finally
aren't a noob any more and dont need them :)

ChrisF:

I don't think anybody in this thread (myself included) suggested playing-by-sight as opposed to playing-by-ear. Main thought is "dots do help, and it's ok to use them, until you don't need them".

Nice picture of a bowl :)

jfv:

You didn't even include a picture! Nothing to respond to...

Again - observation: the answers are in remarkable contrast to the usual attitude on BG forums. I guess I won't make too many friends here :):):)

i think that after you've been playing for a while you'll find that you dont need them except in maybe a few very rare situations in which case a temporary mark would probably do if you decide its necessary. the thing with dot is that they will never be totall correct. check out the pothagorean theorum. as your string hight varies from time to time then so will the positions of the notes on the neck (because the distance you need to press and stretch the string will change), and if your dot is in a fixed position sometimes the note may be on the dot, sometimes it may be in front and sometimes behind. i can speak from experience of having access to someone's bass who has dots. even if you put the dot exactly under the harmonic, by the time you press the string the distance to the fingerboard the note will no longer be where the dot is. so in essence the dot is just a general landmark, not an exact location, but in my feeling, there are enough general landmarks on the instrument already to get by that dots probably wont help after a while. my friend who has them says that he pretty much ignores them now that he's been playing a while.

Crutches
Training wheels
Inderal
Dots

Don:

Agree. Temporary help to get you going (not sure about inderal, though...), not a mortal sin.

Shwashwa:

Good point! (in fact, I was hoping to get this kind of answer - technical and sensible, not a dose of... whatever I got)

Any changes - string height, bridge position - would render dots, and any markers, like woodgrain, less useful. Is it typical on DB for these to change often?

Relation of dots to the "pressure point" depending on where you do it - high up, or down low - is a very valid point, too. Based on my fretless BG experience: I had to learn where the actual note is in relation to the dot in different parts of the neck.

Again, to me it is a question of expediency: is it faster to start hitting the right notes with some visual aid, or via muscle memory alone? (Ear plays absolutely same role with both ways - you place your finger at the right spot - whichever way you found it - and then correct the intonation). My answer is - #1. But this is only my opinion (though I'm entitled to it :)).

Once pure black ebony becomes too rare to use in large bass fingerboards, maybe this question will become moot, as all the affordable fingerboards will have lovely brown swirls and streaks in them? Know your swirls and streaks, connect their placement with pitch and fingerings, and you can leap around more easily.

(Why spend more to stain it black and then spend more on inlays or dots?)


Is this really so different as using the crook in the neck (D or Eb), the harmonic at the 12th or 15th semi-tone, the curve of the upper left shoulder, or other physical aids to play in tune?

Had a cool-down period, and wanted to acknowledge this:

I do think that my tone in the exchange on fingerboard markings could've been more restrained. Didn't mean to come off as a cheeky noob :)

Irritating look of a bassist looking at his hands...

Oh, boy, yeah, that is irritating. There's a guy who teaches on youtube who gets his face almost up against the fingerboard and never takes his eyes off his left hand. He has this dreamy-eyed look like he's in love with it. I hope he doesn't play like that on gigs 'cause it's hard to look at.

I admire the pros who seem never to look at their hand yet always sound like they're spot on. I can't do that, but I look away and just listen as often as I can.

I'm not a pro and never will be, so I have dots. My dots were put there mathematically by a luthier, but I know they're still not exactly right for a lot of the reasons mentioned here. I just use them like a lot of you use the natural wood-grain markings, i.e., as approximations.

Have any of you guys tried playing an unmodified Mariachi guitarrón? I swear that each string has its own imaginary frets, and they don't line up across the neck. They zig-zag. It's gotta be because of the various string thicknesses and the distance you have to deflect them due to the guitarrón's very high action.

Anyway, I'll keep my dots, but they're just reference points like grain swirls.

http://riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/popcorn.jpg

Seriously, you are entitled to your own opinion. But as a farily experienced player, I have to add that playing by sight on the DB makes about as much sense to me as the idea of walking while staring at the ground where your feet are going instead of keeping your head up and looking at the bigger picture version of the terrain around you. YMMV. :)

bingo. use your eyes to connect yourself to the musicians you are playing with.

anybody that says the dots arent there for them to stare at them, they're lying. why is it there then. it is 100% a visual aid. you're pitch will develop at a much faster pace without them. proper technique and some decent relative pitch can go a long way.

the fact is, the easy way is often never the right way. especially in music.

o, and i will bet my left nut that if edgar meyer knew that all of you were using him as your excuse to use dots on your basses, he would be floored. as far as i heard, those are there as a joke.