The drummer in my cover band has 18 years under his belt and is musically pushing us harder with the song selections he nominates. I am relishing the challenge and don't mind him injecting more difficult songs in what we play.

We are playing Rock N Roll by Led Zeppelin and despite asking for a simple 4 count into the song, the drummer is insisting on playing the drum intro. Which is fine but I can't for the life of me work out the count! :confused:

The guitarist says everyone comes in on the "2 and", and the drummer says it starts "on the 3". When I listen to the recording, I can't count it quick enough to be certain where they are starting and I tend to come in at the wrong point, usually after the others :(

For some reason, I keep losing the progression during the guitar solo too. It still sounds OK, but it sure is embarrassing and it doesn't do anyone any favours when I do it on the fretless :)

If someone could break down the timing on the intro as far as the theory goes for me, I'd really appreciate it. I'm pretty sure the verse is 4/4, but I'm not certain the intro is.

Seems such a simple song too, standard progression and all that. Not sure why I'm struggling with it!

I've never worked it out. When I play it (rarely) I just watch the drummers foot for the down beat.

if you were to count like this: "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" for each measure, then the downbeat is on the "&", after the "2" of the 5th measure.

if you were to count like this: "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" for each measure, then the downbeat is on the "&", after the "2" of the 5th measure.


This is right. This is where you should be in. The lick starts on the and of one.



Aj

The drums intro plays.

2 bars of 4/4

1 bar of 7/8

1 bar of 4/4

1 bar of 2/4


This should add up right.

This is just for you to hear that intro clearer. Ask him to play it stupid slow a couple for times at each rehearsal for a month, count along. Listen to how the snare is lining up with the count. Don't feel a need to count the 7/8 bar in eighths just feel that subdivision and start your new bar of four "early".It will line up with a snare hit.I would never try to count this on stage. Just feel it once you've got it.






Aj

so far, my method works best

I agree with Lesfunk


Aj

Thanks guys, I think. . . :)

Here's a very basic version of the drum intro showing the way I understand it (It always works for me):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/alvabass/RockandRolldrumintro.jpg

And here's an audio file with the MIDI (including a click, exactly what I count):

http://media.putfile.com/Rock-and-Roll-drum-intro

Hope this helps.

With things like this I tend to feel them (obviously it helps to really get to know the song first). Personally, I would watch the drummer as he's most likely to go for a cymbal crash on the beat where you all come in, so keep an eye on his hands and/or make eye contact with him. Over time, as you get used to it, you'll start hearing where it is and rely on this visual clue less and less.

With things like this I tend to feel them (obviously it helps to really get to know the song first). Personally, I would watch the drummer as he's most likely to go for a cymbal crash on the beat where you all come in, so keep an eye on his hands and/or make eye contact with him. Over time, as you get used to it, you'll start hearing where it is and rely on this visual clue less and less.


This is how I usually approach this stuff and exactly how I learned this song back in the day.


That last little build up is 2 beats long thats how I got it. Thats the part I focused on.


What ever allows you to "get it" is all that matters.




That said I like to explain why I divided it the way I did. Just because it' fun and will actually help you learn it faster.



Look at the music Alvaro posted.


Look at the snare pattern

Down beat, rest for 1/4 and another snare on the & of 2. If you look at that third bar as 7/8 you would start the pattern again downbeat & of 2. Then a "surprise"(this note is one that really sets your ear up) on the & of 3 and a & of 4 leading into a 2 beat 1/8 note build up.


Alvaro do you have the ability to edit your sequence so you have that 7/8 bar? If you can could you post it I believe you'll hear what I'm talking about. All its going to do Is make that second half feel normal instead of displaced.



Aj

Down beat, rest for 1/4 and another snare on the & of 2. If you look at that third bar as 7/8 you would start the pattern again downbeat & of 2. Then a "surprise"(this note is one that really sets your ear up) on the & of 3 and a & of 4 leading into a 2 beat 1/8 note build up.


Alvaro do you have the ability to edit your sequence so you have that 7/8 bar? If you can could you post it I believe you'll hear what I'm talking about. All its going to do Is make that second half feel normal instead of displaced.

Sure! Here's your version :):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/alvabass/RockandRolldrumintroversion2.jpg

Sounds exactly the same than mine. It's another way to understand it.

Thanks! Could you post the audio file with the MIDI? Possibly a "slow" version as well.




Yes, It is just another way to understand it. I believe its a more "correct" way of viewing/hearing it.


The whole point is for the written music to look like it sounds,right,or as close as we can get given the restraints of our nomenclature.


The way I've written it the accents of the groove are represented in the written music.

I posted before why I feel it should be dropped where I did. Even looking at the music written it "looks" right.You can see the shapes of the patterns.

Sounds exactly the same than mine.

It should sound subtly different. If your midi music has that count and it changes with the 7/8 bar you'll hear the phrases of the last 2 bars line line up with the count.Thus, you'll hear that "One" clearer.Which is the whole point.




Really all we're doing is debating where to drop the 1/8 note right? Why drop it where you have? Please,give me a reason that I can hear and I'm cool. There are many ways to skin the cat.

Thanks for writing that out for me Alvaro you obviously have a strong grasp on this stuff. :)



Aj

Thanks! Could you post the audio file with the MIDI? Possibly a "slow" version as well.

OK. :cool:

"My" version at half speed. (http://media.putfile.com/Rock-and-Roll-drum-intro-slow)

"Your" version. (http://media.putfile.com/Rock-and-Roll-drum-intro-alt)

"Your" version at half speed. (http://media.putfile.com/Rock-and-Roll-drum-intro-alt-slow)

:)

The guitarist says everyone comes in on the "2 and", and the drummer says it starts "on the 3".



Funny, sounds like our debate.


Depth Charge..... How we doing?


Aj

It's no longer Rock and roll. It's becoming Algebra

Don't patronize, It doesn't work, IMHO you come off like you underestimate Zeppelin, These guys we're serious musicians.







Aj

What are you talking about? Zeppelin was a great band and they all are great musicians.
It was a joke.

I always listened for the 5 snare whacks at the end of the intro.

If you listen to the song over and over again, you will find you can anticipate the, "BOP,BOP,BOP,BOP,BOP" - I always ignored the first part of what any drummer does to that intro - cuz they all have their own way of doing it. My goal was to listen for that final snare salvo and climb on board. I count that final snares as "&3&4&" which lands me nicely on 1.

As long as your drum is not trying to be deliberately vague and changing up the way he finishes his intro, you should be able to pick it up that way. He could monkey all he wants with the on and off beat snare whacks in the first part, but as long as he pulls it all together at the end with the 5 snare beats, you should be good to go.

nice

I found your comment was intended to patronize.I was supportive and respectful of your very practical prosses of learning how to get through the intro.

IMHO Zeppelin used these kind of tools way to often not to knowledgeable of exactly what they were doing. So using a "algebra" to check them out seems appropriate.


I was giving the original poster exactly what he ask for. Which then fell into a simple conversation on how to view/interpret/transcribe odd time signatures. Inevitable given the topic.


Aj

well it wasn't intended to patronize. sorry for the confusion

If you listen to the song over and over again, you will find you can anticipate the, "BOP,BOP,BOP,BOP,BOP" - I always ignored the first part of what any drummer does to that intro - cuz they all have their own way of doing it. My goal was to listen for that final snare salvo and climb on board. I count that final snares as "&3&4&" which lands me nicely on 1.


This is exactly how I learned it.

My whole diatribe is just for fun and might help someone hear this section clearer.

I count that final snares "&3&4&" which lands me nicely on 1.

What I'm trying to get across is that I hear this clearly this way also.Not necessarily &3&4& but as a clear/whole individual section that leads into the downbeat.So my transcription supports this.




Aj

well it wasn't intended to patronize. sorry for the confusion


Thanks, very cool. I'll admit I feel a little geekish and defensive.


Aj

This is exactly how I learned it.

My whole diatribe is just for fun and might help someone hear this section clearer.


Aj

I appreciated the scientific break-down. Seeing Mr. Gómez's first run at it really made sense to me, count-wise. The latter attempt to insert 7/8, 2/4, etc... just emphasized what I think to be the case - that Bonzo just went for it and was not thinking one little bit about all those different time signatures - He just gave a big old "eyebrows cue" to the John and Jimmy as he was nailing down those last five shots.

My point is this; trying to break it down to a measure/beat counting exercise is over-complicating the task at hand - which is listening to the drummer and intuitively understanding when he's kicking it in.

I've seen a ton of drummers do this intro and all of them, without exception, would stumble on the final 5 - which says they too were shooting at those beats as the cue in. They were not agonizing over whether they hit the & of 7 in measure 4.5 - they were gunning for the end - &3&4& BOOM!

We just learned/relearned this. I do it by feel too, and haven't had a problem.

The place where I was messed up for a week or so were the changes occur. It is all regular 12-bar progression, except for the intro, and one pass in the first solo - which cut it all in half.

On the two short passes, the intro one, to me, sounds like it goes straight from the 5 back to the one - while the one at the start of the first solo sounds like it goes good ol' 5-4-1.

that Bonzo just went for it and was not thinking one little bit about all those different time signatures - He just gave a big old "eyebrows cue" to the John and Jimmy as he was nailing down those last five shots.

I understand your point, Thats how it's often done.

Personally,I give these guys more credit/respect than that.

BTW it's not science,it's music.

"you can lead a horse to water but........



I'm done, the conversations about to run around the tree again.life's too short.





Aj

I understand your point, Thats how it's often done.

Personally,I give these guys more credit/respect than that.



I'm done, the conversations about to run around the tree again.life's too short.





Aj

To be clear, I wasn't necessarily picking on your approach or you, so I hope you didn't get that impression.

And I am sorry you are done - I just got in and found this topic to be interesting.

As for credit/respect - I have been a full-on Zep fan for many, many, many, years. I have nothing but respect for their skills and abilities in song crafting, producing, live performance and so on.

I do not feel that a musician who creates a temporally ambiguous intro that is not anchored to any particular premeditated structure and who relies on the overall ears and instincts of the band in general to nail the "one" - as being anything other than respectful and crediting the entire band.

I would never say Bonzo "accidentally" made that intro - He did it very purposefully, I am sure. But I also would not say that he sat down before hand and planned it to be so oddly accented either. The fact that it came out that was was a result of feel and instinct, not math.

I found tZer's approach to be the easiest to understand; it's not like you'll be counting everytime the drummer starts that intro, therefore is easier to learn to enter after those last 5 eight notes played in the snare drum. Obviously all of the approaches are respetable, and Alvaro did a nice job explaining the intro's timing, but I think tZer just simpliflied the way to play after the intro.

I'm breaking my word. I'm back for one last point.


Alvaro are you still out there? Or have you blown this off.........


if you are do me one last favor on the Midi thing.


Take "my" transcription and make the 7/8 bar 4/4.


Please post it. Audio?


All of a sudden this intro is going to become clear as a bell in fact almost boring.Very old school Rock and Roll.


Turn the 2/4 bar to 4/4 of eighths ? Blah, welcome to cliche' city



By putting that piece back in, in it's "place" hopefully that will illustrate where it was taken out.









Aj

...listen to the intro of Little Richard doing "Keep On Knockin' (But You Can't Come In)"

Perhaps Bonzo tipping his hat to Charles Connor

...listen to the intro of Little Richard doing "Keep On Knockin' (But You Can't Come In)"

Yep. That's how I understand he came up with that drum intro:

You keep on knockin' but you
You keep on knockin' but you
You keep on knockin' but you
Can't come in
1,2,3,4

I used to feel it exactly as Alvaro Martín Gómez A.'s transcription until a drummer pointed out the Little Richard thing. Displace that transcription one 1/8 note ahead (so the first hat/snare hit is on the "&" of one instead of right on the one). That last bar becomes 4-1/8 notes over a bar of 2/4 instead of 3-1/8 notes over a bar of 3/8. Either way will get you there perfectly but I really do think the displaced version is the correct way to feel it because Bonham plays some fills during the song that are variations of the displaced version.

To the OP: the drum intro is the coolest part of the whole song! If I was the drummer I would launch everything in my stick bag at you for even considering leaving the intro out.

For some reason, I keep losing the progression during the guitar solo too. Seems such a simple song too, standard progression and all that. Not sure why I'm struggling with it!

The progression is different during the solos. If you listen to the song until it's imprinted in your memory you will get it, and it helps if your guitarist also is on the same page. From memory (I'm in the office without a bass with me right now), during the solo, the progression is "standard" the first time through, but the second time through it hangs on the A for another 4(?) bars before going to the D. Something similar happens again at the end when Plant is singing the "ooh yeah, ooh year" bit.

If you listen to it you'll get it. It may help to chart it out bar by bar, or ask your guitarist to chart out the chord progression from his point of view. Best of luck, it's a great song when done well.

listen to the intro of Little Richard doing "Keep On Knockin' (But You Can't Come In)"

I never made that connection before. You can definitely hear the influence.

Its not the same though Little Richard thing is 2 bars of Four. Preceded with a pickup.

It swings different also very much a sped up second line groove.Check that bass drum.

The "&3&4&" this is there though....and guess what, it's on 3&4.








Aj

...listen to the intro of Little Richard doing "Keep On Knockin' (But You Can't Come In)"

Perhaps Bonzo tipping his hat to Charles Connor

We have a winner!

That's it, isn't it? Funny how these things work!

Thanks for that!

Sorry to be arriving late to the party . . .

I think you're all making this intro WAY too complicated . . .

Alvaro, ¿podrias ayudarme con eso, por favor?

Notate (in simple 4/4) the same figure that you've already done TWICE a THIRD TIME, this time starting the first note on the "and" of "3" . . .

I think everybody will notice that it's really a simple riff, but that it starts out in a weird place . . .

if you were to count like this: "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" for each measure, then the downbeat is on the "&", after the "2" of the 5th measure.

Really? I always thought the down beat was 1,2,3 and 4... Funny, I never really thought about it

Deafpea


Cool, something new. I'll start by saying your thing is really good enough that I'll never say its "wrong". I consider it just as right as the way I want to write it. This will come down to personal opinion and how we hear it and how we think a drummer would want to read it.


What I like about it.

We keep it in Four.Cool, all ways a good thing.


The last phase becomes/Stays what we hear it as.



That note that I drew attention too that I said really flipped your ear is on "three" a natural strong beat. So it "naturally" falls into place.




What i don't like about it or why I like Mine.




I hear "One and the and of 2" which has such strong roots in rock via new Orleans/Latin music via Africa that I really want to see that on paper.People read that every day, They see/hear it in their sleep.

I like to "see" the "Fold" of the time in the phrase,How the groove is turning back on its self/ the "trick" is exposed right from the start and I think the reader will see it quicker. Assuming their comfortable reading odd times.

I just don't hear One where you want to put it. Until the third beat of bar 4 I'll buy that.




Really though I have to say I agree with your thing a million times more than anything else Ive heard.

there are many ways to skin the cat.





Aj

...I hear "One and the and of 2" which has such strong roots in rock via new Orleans/Latin music via Africa that I really want to see that on paper...
I actually hear "ONE two three AND . . . " as being a LOT more funky, New Orleans Prof Longhair-ish than the 3-2 clave (half) that you like . . . It's all about where you put the accent . . .

...I like to "see" the "Fold" of the time,How the groove is turning back on its self/ the "trick" is exposed right from the start and I think the reader will see it quicker. Assuming their comfortable reading odd times...
FWIW, I'm MORE than just a little bit "comfortable" reading (AND improvising) in "odd" times, having been the bass player with The Don Ellis Orchestra in the early 70's (the double LPs "Live at Fillmore" and "Tears of Joy"; the film "The French Connection") . . . and although I AM aware of the many uses of "odd" times in the music of Led Zep, I also "know" Bonzo's style of rhythmic displacement that is so obvious (to me, at least) here . . .

And just for the record . . . I'm not a "mod", I'm a "rocker"!



But I DO like the bass playing of John Entwistle and some of the other "mods"

:cool:

I actually hear "ONE two three AND . . . " as being a LOT more funky, New Orleans Prof Longhair-ish than the 3-2 clave (half) that you like . . . It's all about where you put the accent . . .


I'm not sure how respond to this.The second Line groove and it's influence on rock and roll is all about the And of 2. It is the 3-2 clave New Orleans style.

Fess's Left hand major third bass line. That drum groove. The Bo didly bop, Buddy Holly's not fade away.The list goes on and on......


Aj

I also "know" Bonzo's style of rhythmic displacement

Thats definitely all it is it's just How we chose to get it to paper.


Aj

:hmm:

I'm not sure how respond to this...
It was NOT meant as a challenge by any means . . . and doesn't really NEED "a response" . . . like you said "there are many ways to skin the cat."


:cool:

Cool, I didn't hear any kind of confrontation. Sorry If what i said implied otherwise. I was just saying thats not at all what I hear in that music. At least when compared to the presence of the And of 2.

And just for the record, Like Ringo before me, I'm a Mocker.


Aj

Depth Charge..... How we doing?
Aj
Going great, don't mind me :)

Yep. To the OP: the drum intro is the coolest part of the whole song! If I was the drummer I would launch everything in my stick bag at you for even considering leaving the intro out.
:D
I agree, the drum intro is really cool as well. And the fact it's odd and starts in "the wrong" place is what has always attracted my ears to wanting to listen to the song.

We worked on the intro at rehearsal last night for about ten minutes. First we discussed the timing, got stuck on arguing on the count again, then broke it down and played it slowly, increasing the tempo a little more each time. After a while I got it, but then I lost it again so we moved along anyway and jammed it out. I messed the progression over the solo up again, they chucked a 2nd solo in just because and we all had a good laugh about it.

I downloaded a demo of "The Amazing Slow Downer" and will be working on the intro for next weeks practice, concentrating on the fast snare hits just before the strings come in, and learning the feel of it.

Thanks guys!

Going great, don't mind me

After a while I got it, but then I lost it


Sounds to me like you'll be just fine.



Aj

Just because I like the sound of my own virtual voice - the purpose of the drum intro is to build tension - like winding a string waaaaaaay past the point where you are sure it's going to snap - so the listener is off balance and completely knocked over when the band kicks in. By starting an accent pattern then moving the accents, Bonzo expertly crafts a perfectly unstable platform for the listener (and band, members for that matter) that causes them to hang on for their lives in anticipation of steady ground.

And for the record, we've got mods, rockers and mockers. Can I be a rod?

I'm breaking my word. I'm back for one last point.


Alvaro are you still out there? Or have you blown this off.........

Hey Andrew, right now I'm far from home because I'm going to attend the Iron Maiden concert in my country (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378368). I'll be back early next Saturday.

if you are do me one last favor on the Midi thing.


Take "my" transcription and make the 7/8 bar 4/4.


Please post it. Audio?

Well, "my" version is like that, isn't it?

I actually hear "ONE two three AND . . . " as being a LOT more funky, New Orleans Prof Longhair-ish than the 3-2 clave (half) that you like . . . It's all about where you put the accent . . .


FWIW, I'm MORE than just a little bit "comfortable" reading (AND improvising) in "odd" times, having been the bass player with The Don Ellis Orchestra in the early 70's (the double LPs "Live at Fillmore" and "Tears of Joy"; the film "The French Connection") . . . and although I AM aware of the many uses of "odd" times in the music of Led Zep, I also "know" Bonzo's style of rhythmic displacement that is so obvious (to me, at least) here . . .


Well, in my case I must say that maybe I understand this thing the way I do because the displacement (the 7/8 bar in Andrew's version) sounds to me more like a clave-style syncopation and the "real rhythmic surprise" to me is the sudden band entering after just three eight notes (the 3/8 bar in my version). Maybe years of playing Latin music have to todo with that.

With things like this I tend to feel them (obviously it helps to really get to know the song first). Personally, I would watch the drummer as he's most likely to go for a cymbal crash on the beat where you all come in, so keep an eye on his hands and/or make eye contact with him. Over time, as you get used to it, you'll start hearing where it is and rely on this visual clue less and less.

That's kinda what I do. I listen for the drummer to go on that snare run just before we come in...."dat, dat, dat-dat datdatdatdat," and come in on the next beat with his crash.

As for the lead section, if one sits down and listens to it, plays along with it repeatedly, the feel of it comes through.

Cherie

That's kinda what I do. I listen for the drummer to go on that snare run just before we come in...."dat, dat, dat-dat datdatdatdat," and come in on the next beat with his crash.

Yup, thats what I'm listening out for now rather than counting it in. The snare run. Problem is my brain is going "that's it yep yep" and bang...I miss it and everyone just goes :rolleyes:

Less reading about gun threads and more woodshedding on Led Zep intro's. . .

Well, "my" version is like that, isn't it?


Alvaro, I should have been clearer. I mean insert a eighth note rest at the end of the bar creating 4/4.


Have fun at the Maiden Show.



Aj

Yup, thats what I'm listening out for now rather than counting it in. The snare run. Problem is my brain is going "that's it yep yep" and bang...I miss it and everyone just goes :rolleyes:

Less reading about gun threads and more woodshedding on Led Zep intro's. . .

Just relax and don't think too much. The "& 3 & 4 &" snare hits are a rock solid cue to launch - Just have your fingers ready and a smile on your face as you watch your drummer try to find his way through it. As long as he doesn't monkey with the snare hits, it should be pretty straight forward.

Alvaro, I should have been clearer. I mean insert a eighth note rest at the end of the bar creating 4/4.


Have fun at the Maiden Show.



Aj


OK. Got it. Thank you so much!

I was waiting for Alvaro to post the notation of "my version" of the intro, but he won't be able to do that until he gets back from the Maiden concert next weekend . . . so . . . here's a rough version of the notation (Alvaro's writing is SO much nicer!)

As you all can see, the intro figure is really very simple . . . it's just that those first 3 eighth note pick-ups throw us all off . . .

if you look at just the last 2 measures, it's so simple . . .

ONE and two and THREE and four AND / one AND two AND THREE AND FOUR AND //

:cool:

Yup, thats what I'm listening out for now rather than counting it in. The snare run. Problem is my brain is going "that's it yep yep" and bang...I miss it and everyone just goes :rolleyes:

Less reading about gun threads and more woodshedding on Led Zep intro's. . .

Yep...I never take my eyes off the drummer during that passage. I can tell by his body language, along with the beats, where he's going to go for that. He isn't always consistent...if he's too tired or isn't feeling well/very sore shoulder from day job, he gets a little off, so I watch him like a red-tailed hawk watches a cottontail. ;)

Cherie :bassist:

It's no longer Rock and roll. It's becoming Algebra

+1... million

57 posts about how to play an A. :rolleyes:

I've played that songs hundreds of times, but honestly I was sick of Zep by 1979.

Just start playing A whenever you finish swigging your beer between songs. Then make sure you nail the first chord change. That's rock and roll.

:bassist:

+1... million
57 posts about how to play an A. :rolleyes:


Not HOW to play an A - WHEN to play an A.

;)

He isn't always consistent...if he's too tired or isn't feeling well/very sore shoulder from day job, he gets a little off, so I watch him like a red-tailed hawk watches a cottontail.


One of the problems with really knowing fills like this is know when their selling you the cheap stuff:cool:


Funny you should mention a red tails stare you should see my desktop.



Aj

Not HOW to play an A - WHEN to play an A.

;)

Semantics... did you see the rack on that bird in the front row??

;)

Now that Deaf's version is there to see I'll repost this.



What I like about it.

We keep it in Four.Cool, all ways a good thing.


The last phase becomes/Stays what we hear it as.



That note that I drew attention too that I said really flipped your ear is on "three" a natural strong beat. So it "naturally" falls into place.




What i don't like about it or why I like Mine.




I hear "One and the and of 2" which has such strong roots in rock via new Orleans/Latin music via Africa that I really want to see that on paper.People read that every day, They see/hear it in their sleep.

I like to "see" the "Fold" of the time in the phrase,How the groove is turning back on its self/ the "trick" is exposed right from the start and I think the reader will see it quicker. Assuming their comfortable reading odd times.

I just don't hear One where you want to put it. Until the third beat of bar 4 I'll buy that.





Aj

Semantics... did you see the rack on that bird in the front row??

;)

Touche'!

One of the problems with really knowing fills like this is know when their selling you the cheap stuff:cool:


Funny you should mention a red tails stare you should see my desktop.



Aj

LOL! That boy-o never buys the cheap stuff. Its nice, being in a band with a man who's got really good taste in "stuff". :cool: ;)

He's got a pretty bad shoulder though. I can tell when its hurting him, because he'll drag this particular song, or get the intro wrong. When he's not hurting too bad, he's fine.

's why watching is sooooo important. If he isn't dead on with that intro, I know, because I'm watching, and can still come in at the "right" place. If you come in wrong, you have to all come in wrong *together*! LOL!

Cherie :bassist:

One of the problems with really knowing fills like this is know when their selling you the cheap stuff:cool:


Funny you should mention a red tails stare you should see my desktop.



Aj

Aren't red tails just as fine as fine can be? I watched three of them hunting the creek bottom the other day. There's a hawk tree up the road, where they like to congregate.

Cherie :)

... If you come in wrong, you have to all come in wrong *together*!...
Very good point . . . and that's another "voice of experience" talking . . .

As we used to say "if you play it strong" (with a lot of conviction) "you'll NEVER be wrong" . . . .

I am a drummer first and foremost, although I only play bass in bands these days. Been playing R&R for almost 30 years on both instruments. I didn't know for sure how many or when (but now depend on those last 5 snare shots) until I saw this written out about 5 years ago.

On drums I just knew when and what to play - and I was always fine unless I thought about it too much! :cool:
On bass I only listen for the 1-2-3-4-5-CRASH.
The drummer starts the song alone so there's no point counting in from the beginning.

This is a cool riff...but not as cool as the outro fill.

I would like to request that if anyone has similar notation for the FINAL drum bit I would love to see it. I've been trying to re-create it myself for 30 years. I have a great CD player and have slowed it down to the point where I can measure minutes per beat. But I still can't tell for sure what the heck he is playing.

The drummer starts the song alone so there's no point counting in from the beginning


I really don't think anyone is advocating a count off. With this type of signature thing if it's decided theres a "proper" way to do it ,in this case there is I've heard 3 different live recording and there all the same, So I think there is. Personally I prefer to really know it. Does this mean the for every gig I learn every detail ? Certainly not you pick your battles you do what it takes to get through.


Since to really know it, meaning I can sing it. I learn in many ways and one of the things I like to do write is out. I help me really memorize it. Part of the benefit writing it out is that if forces you to decide how you want to Group the rhythm reflecting the phrases you hear. Inversely it teaches you to listen for little phrases with in larger ones.


The original poster ask for advice on how to hear the whole fill. It's been said right from the start (myself include) Just wait for the build up and hit it. I'm in this conversation to help the OP with his request. To talk about interpreting/hearing this piece of music, as I hear it. Notating it is just a visual aid to the interpretation.


On that topic I'll maintain that the written music should reflect what is heard as much as possible. With consideration towards ease of reading.There are many ways to write rhythms as we're seeing with 3 different Ideas so far.


My biggest objection to Alvaro's version is that Phrase thats everyone hears.....The one we wait for and is cued in by. Clearly to me is 4 1/8 notes and a pick up 1/8......&3&4&..Bam!


By choosing to "Cut" that phrase with the 3/8 thing it doesn't represent what the majority of us agree we clearly hear.





What I hear is 3 possibly 4 sections


1) A "set up" a section of predictable rock beat that makes you feel comfortable. My first two measures.

2) A "trick" a means to create a illusion/A surprise something where you go whoa didn't see (hear) that coming. My third bar in 7/8 is the tool that makes that snare thats the down beat of the next measure the "surprise".

3) This next bar is the cool part If I allow the tick to work I hear it as weird/displaced/unstable .......BUT..... If want to foil the trick and I start counting strong from one. I hear the same familiar pattern as the "set up" section.With a "little surprise " the note that I keep drawing attention to. then.....

3a/4) a pick up into 2 beats of build/ anticipation. If I allow the "trick to work it's replacing the ground under my ears.If I don't, it's a dead simple strait ahead "here we go". Four beats would have been a clearer more predictable,It would also been too cliche'.


Please, if you want to take a minute to try to hear it the way I do.Get good at counting from the 7/8 bar out and try to hear what I do,A very strait ahead phrase.


I feel the way I wrote it succeeds in reflecting how I hear it.


Thats how I hear this piece of music it's subtle, crafty and ^&%bad ass.All the reasons why I love Bonzo.








Overly Caffeinated



Aj

...Notating it is just a visual aid to the interpretation...On that topic I'll maintain that the written music should reflect what is heard as much as possible. With consideration towards ease of reading.There are many ways to write rhythms as we're seeing with 3 different Ideas so far...I feel the way I wrote it succeeds in reflecting how I hear it...
very true . . . I understand 100% . . . that's the way YOU hear it!

But I think that you are hearing that intro a LOT more complicated than it really IS . . .

The way that I hear it . . . and notate it . . . as a fairly simple 4/4 lick that starts in a weird place . . . seems like "the way he did it" . . . YMMV


It's SO obvious to me that I'm going to say it again:

"As you all can see, the intro figure is really very simple . . . it's just that those first 3 eighth note pick-ups throw us all off . . .

if you look at just the last 2 measures, it's so simple . . .

ONE and two and THREE and four AND / one AND two AND THREE AND FOUR AND //"

:cool:

I always listened for the 5 snare whacks at the end of the intro.

If you listen to the song over and over again, you will find you can anticipate the, "BOP,BOP,BOP,BOP,BOP" - I always ignored the first part of what any drummer does to that intro - cuz they all have their own way of doing it. My goal was to listen for that final snare salvo and climb on board. I count that final snares as "&3&4&" which lands me nicely on 1.
...



+1

That said, the way you guys analyze and are able to break this down is fascinating, impressive, and underscores the low level of NOVICE that I have achieved by comparison.

than it really IS


Play nice deaf , your really close to implying right and wrong here. Even though I have strong opinions on the topic, I've tried very hard not to go there. The phrase "than how YOU hear it" would have been tactful.



Aj

Wow, this thread blew right out :)

This is completely irrelevant to the actual discussion of the timing of the start...but:


57 posts about how to play an A. :rolleyes:

A? :hiding:

I thought it was G. Like this:

G A A A A A A A | G A A A A A A A | G A A A G A A A | G A (hold it) G A (hold it) G | x 2 @ the intro.

That's how I play the intro and verse riff anyway. Sounds fine both jamming to the recording and played with the band.

It's issues like these why my one lesson bass teacher told me to drill rythms with a metronome everyday for 6 months :D :D
I wish I did that lesson first, then spent 8 years teaching myself to regurgitate tabs!!

Play nice deaf , your really close to implying right and wrong here. Even though I have strong opinions on the topic, I've tried very hard not to go there. The phrase "than how YOU hear it" would have been tactful.



Aj

Sorry if I offended you Aj . . . I really thought that I WAS being tactful by saying "But I think that you are hearing that intro a LOT more complicated than it really IS . . ."

And I'll say it again, more clearly: the way that you notate that intro accurately reflects how YOU hear it . . . I think that you are complicating things with that 7/8 measure . . . but that IS how you hear it.

And I don't fault you for "your interpretation" of what you hear Bonzo doing. It's as valid as Alvaro's version with the 3/8 at the end OR Scot's version starting on the "and" of one and ending with a 2/4 bar OR "my" version starting on the "and" of three and simply being 4 bars of 4/4 with a pick-up . . .

But I think that the simplist version IS "the easiest way to hear and understand it" . . .

I'm NOT being judgemntal here . . . I'm just trying to clarify (for EVERYBODY) what's going on in that drum intro . . .

Deaf

What I like the most about your idea is the last 2 bars.



What I can't do is justify 2 bars and a pickup of really stretching my mind around something that I hear so clearly as one to make it the and of 3.


I was just giving it another listen and I heard something that I decided I really feel strong about.


Theres a & of 4 (the way I'm writing it)grace note in those opening bars that we're not notating. You know typical rock "And ONE"

Notating it the way you want to, would put this on three with a >>>accent on the and of three. As I'm sure aware that is swimming against the current of basic rules of natural implied accents of written music.If this was a shorter thing I could justify it. For 2 bars though....


For the sake of "keeping it simple" your really stretching my ability to swim up stream along side you.



Aj

You guys are just pulling the p, right? It seriously can't be that complicated surely. . . :D

Actually, talking about Zep it can be.


That said I like deaf's Idea more after giving it a good listening to it a couple of times.I can go easily back and forth at this point with the way I hear it. I'll let you know in the long run what wins out.



Aj

...It seriously can't be that complicated...
As Andrew has said, with Led Zep, yes, it CAN be fairly complicated . . . but it also can be deceptively simple . . .

:cool:

Very good point . . . and that's another "voice of experience" talking . . .

As we used to say "if you play it strong" (with a lot of conviction) "you'll NEVER be wrong" . . . .

Yeahhhhhhh, buddy!!! Gotta *own* it!

Our drummer hates playing the song, because he feels he doesn't play it very well. He drags when he's tired and whatnot, but really, he does a fine job 99% of the time. I can look at his face, and how he's holding his body, and know whether he'll nail it or not...its like having a Drummer Bad Day Alert System. LOL!

Cherie :bassist:

For that one, I'd just consider the first 3 eighth notes pickups, start counting on the 2nd accent (after those 3 eighth notes), and count 4 measures of 4/4. Works every time. (If your drummer plays it right).

Ok, a second vote for Pea.


Aj

I don't think anyone should be counting the bass in on the 1. The whole song is played behind the beat iirc

Yes the whole song is actually in three. Anyone want to write it out?




Aj

OK. As promised...


I'm breaking my word. I'm back for one last point.


Alvaro are you still out there? Or have you blown this off.........


if you are do me one last favor on the Midi thing.


Take "my" transcription and make the 7/8 bar 4/4.


Please post it. Audio?


All of a sudden this intro is going to become clear as a bell in fact almost boring.Very old school Rock and Roll.


Turn the 2/4 bar to 4/4 of eighths ? Blah, welcome to cliche' city



By putting that piece back in, in it's "place" hopefully that will illustrate where it was taken out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/alvabass/RockandRolldrumintrocounterexample.jpg

Full speed. (http://media.putfile.com/Rock-and-Roll-drum-intro-counterexample)

Half speed. (http://media.putfile.com/Rock-and-Roll-drum-intro-counterexample-slow)


Sorry to be arriving late to the party . . .

I think you're all making this intro WAY too complicated . . .

Alvaro, ¿podrias ayudarme con eso, por favor?

Notate (in simple 4/4) the same figure that you've already done TWICE a THIRD TIME, this time starting the first note on the "and" of "3" . . .

I think everybody will notice that it's really a simple riff, but that it starts out in a weird place . . .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/alvabass/RockandRolldrumintroyetanotherversi.jpg

Full speed. (http://media.putfile.com/Rock-and-Roll-drum-intro-alt-02)

Half speed. (http://media.putfile.com/Rock-and-Roll-drum-intro-alt-02-slow)

Gracias, Alvaro . . .

ive always learned that if i cant figure out drum licks or time signatures, i work backwards starting(in this case) when the band comes in after the drum intro. ive always been playing the intro 4 bars of 4/4 plus 1 bar of 3/8. i recently had to play the song at a gig with guys ive never played it with before and had to verify how THEY knew it before we started..to make it easy i just played 4 bars even and it worked out fine...

BUT..i beleive the real way is to START the intro with the 3/8 bar, leaving 4 even bars left to settle in to the groove. so the first 3 drum hits will be + 4 +...like a 3 note pickup into a 4 bar intro. it really changed how i heard the intro but i think its right. if you listen closely to the original over and over again, counting it like this, you'll notice that Bonham's last 4 hits of the intro are an obvious 3+4+.

I'm surprised how long this thread is. My band has jammed this several times with different guitar players (every time we auditioned one it always came down to "let's do Rock and Roll"). There was never a problem with our timing. As long as everybody comes in at the same time it really doesn't matter if you come in on the "one" or the "and" or whatever. Yeah it's tricky to do it exactly as recorded but is anyone in your audience going to notice or care? Just play and go with what feels right, don't bother counting it all out. If you are reasonably tight as a band you are not going to miss it by that much.

ive always learned that if i cant figure out drum licks or time signatures, i work backwards starting(in this case) when the band comes in after the drum intro. ive always been playing the intro 4 bars of 4/4 plus 1 bar of 3/8. i recently had to play the song at a gig with guys ive never played it with before and had to verify how THEY knew it before we started..to make it easy i just played 4 bars even and it worked out fine...

BUT..i beleive the real way is to START the intro with the 3/8 bar, leaving 4 even bars left to settle in to the groove. so the first 3 drum hits will be + 4 +...like a 3 note pickup into a 4 bar intro. it really changed how i heard the intro but i think its right. if you listen closely to the original over and over again, counting it like this, you'll notice that Bonham's last 4 hits of the intro are an obvious 3+4+.


I agree with this post. I know this thread kind of died a while back but I wanted to take a stab at explaining what I think is going on. I recently had to learn this, and it felt really unnatural, so I had to slow it down and count it out until it made sense. It feels like 3 bars of 4/4 (I count in 8th notes here because it makes sense to me) and one bar of 11/8 (the 'and' becomes the 1). You could also call it 4 bars of 4/4 and 1 of 3/8.

Traditionally counted 8th notes:

1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
1 and 2 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 (comes in on the 3rd 8th note)

The 'and' of the 5th bar becomes the 1

You could also count it this way (I prefer this way because the 'ands' get on my nerves:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

It may be confusing for some to count to 8 because of the accents on the 4th bar, but like I said, this makes sense to me. I also like to count 5/4 as 1 2 3 4 1, 1 2 3 4 1, so I may be kind of weird that way.

Hope this helps.