Newbie Salsa bass player here. I have "Funkifying the Clave" and Ed Uribe's "Essence of Afro-cuban Percussion and Drum Set" which has a lot of non percussion stuff including bass in it. I've been playing trombone in this community college band for the past year an a half, but this semester no bass player showed up so I volunteered.

Being more of a jazz/funk kinda guy, I'm used to owning the 'one', but many Latin grooves avoid the one like the plague, and I'm having a hard time staying solid on 2+ and 4 (basic tumbao). I've been working out with the metronome set to beat on 1 and 3, but would like to hear some additional practice ideas to get this groove firmly ingrained.

Also, I notice that tapping quarter notes with my foot helps with precisely locating the 2+, but the danger for me is that my groove can slip into 3+ and 1 or 1+ and 3 all too easily. Should I work on foot tapping only on 1 and 3?

As the three side of the clave is a rhythm that I'm familiar from funk grooves, I've also been experimenting with counting in 'one' and playing the 2+ and 4 off it. How about this concept?

Thanks in advance to all you experience d Latin bassists for your advice.

I have similar problems playing Latin Rhythms. Patience & practice are the answer.

I often use Oscar Stagnaro's Latin Bass Book which comes with a play-along CD.

Hey guys,
Rather than just practicing with method books it's a lot more important that you familiarize yourselves with the music and internalize the rhythms. All salsa music (it's actually a term used for an incredibly broad range of afro-cuban and latin rhythms) is based on the clave which is in itself based on the quarter note triplet. Get yourselves some good music (listen to salsa online stations, satellite radio or local radio stations if you have them).

I can recommend early Ruben Blades, Hector Lavoe, El Gran Combo, Eddie Palmieri, Michel Camilo (latin jazz, but lots of tumbao!) and Willie Colon. If you can get stuff from those guys from the mid-late 70s and early 80s it would be ideal.

Good luck! and shake those booties!

One way I got the pattern into my head was "thinking" one, then play the and of 2 and 4. That way I could still feel the two-dotted quarter and one quarter rhythm that we all know and love, but what would end up coming out is the tumbao. Once I was able to get that sound under my fingers I stopped "thinking" about the one so much, but its a good transitory tool.

I often use Oscar Stagnaro's Latin Bass Book which comes with a play-along CD.
+1.

This book is a real approach to playing latin music of all kinds. Funking up the clave is not a good place to start.

I can recommend early Ruben Blades, Hector Lavoe, El Gran Combo, Eddie Palmieri, Michel Camilo (latin jazz, but lots of tumbao!) and Willie Colon.

+100, classic and modern salsa...que rico.

Yeah, DEFINITELY get Oscar's book. It's as legit as it gets. Funking the clave? Waste of paper, from the sound of it.

Some good info and tips in this thread: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377190

I've made some headway personally by playing along recorded music, The Latin Bass Book (http://www.amazon.com/Latin-Bass-Book-Oscar-Stagnaro/dp/1883217113/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204398708&sr=8-1) , as already recommended, was good for that. Recording myself and listening back, I've got the groove right when accompanying; my problem is I still get lost when playing simply to a metronome, which is no good if/when I ever have an intro to do.

It does get better with patience and practice, and Latin rhythm bring a whole new palette of rhythm to your playing.

The clave in latin music occupies the same position as the "one" and the "two and four" in...uh.. non latin music. How long did it take you to get comformtable with the two and the four? the one? you either grew up with it and it just seems normal now or had to work on it, right?

So, you you need to immerse yourself I the music and listen, listen, listen and eventually you 'll find yourself clapping out the the tumbao figure without thinking about it.

One of the big goals for drum set players who didnt grow up with this stuff, is to be able to keep the clave going with their left foot ( hi-hat) while doing the regular stuff on the rest of the kit, thus it becomes as ingrained as the 2/4.

Funking the clave? Waste of paper

I'm glad you said it, I wasn't going to...people think I'm a jerk as it is.
Oscar's book really is the latin bass "Omnibook", and the other one that is pretty good is Oscar Del Puerto's True Cuban Bass Book. People also say it's helpful to learn latin percussion, or to learn to dance salsa. Me, I married a Venezuelan and hoped that would count for something. She turned out to be tone deft and incapable of dancing, but having her around did raise my credibility with the salseros! :D

I think the problem with Funkifying the Clave is that most people try to funkify the clave before they have it. Learn to play it straight up, then you can try to funkify it, dig?

Wilser,

Thanks for the listening recommendations. I have been trying to find some good salsa examples for over a week so I can get a basic salsa pattern just right and you are the first person with some specific examples. Will check out your suggestions.

Hey guys,
Get yourselves some good music (listen to salsa online stations, satellite radio or local radio stations if you have them).

I can recommend early Ruben Blades, Hector Lavoe, El Gran Combo, Eddie Palmieri, Michel Camilo (latin jazz, but lots of tumbao!) and Willie Colon. If you can get stuff from those guys from the mid-late 70s and early 80s it would be ideal.

Good luck! and shake those booties!

I'm glad you said it, I wasn't going to...people think I'm a jerk as it is.
Oscar's book really is the latin bass "Omnibook", and the other one that is pretty good is Oscar Del Puerto's True Cuban Bass Book. People also say it's helpful to learn latin percussion, or to learn to dance salsa. Me, I married a Venezuelan and hoped that would count for something. She turned out to be tone deft and incapable of dancing, but having her around did raise my credibility with the salseros! :D


Great suggestion! Learning latin percussion is probably the fastest way for getting this stuff together. It easy to see the relationships between all the parts that way if you can play the individual parts. YOu dont need to go out and buy the instruments ( I mean, you can and probably should but thats alot of money $$$) you can simply tap out the parts or clap them ect. When listening to a recording it can just seem like a wash for the noob.

I'm glad you said it, I wasn't going to...people think I'm a jerk as it is.
Oscar's book really is the latin bass "Omnibook", and the other one that is pretty good is Oscar Del Puerto's True Cuban Bass Book. People also say it's helpful to learn latin percussion, or to learn to dance salsa. Me, I married a Venezuelan and hoped that would count for something. She turned out to be tone deft and incapable of dancing, but having her around did raise my credibility with the salseros! :D

True Cuban Bass book is by Carlos Del Puerto (Sr.) & (the late) Silvio Vergara. Congratulations on you're Venezuelan wife!

I think the problem with Funkifying the Clave is that most people try to funkify the clave before they have it. Learn to play it straight up, then you can try to funkify it, dig?

True and even before they have the funk. :D

To the OP:

You need to listen to a lot of latin bass in it's context and if you can play as much with a latin ensemble which will get you to where you want to be quicker but it also may be the most painful when you start out. Taking some dance lessons will also help.

I think the problem with Funkifying the Clave is that most people try to funkify the clave before they have it. Learn to play it straight up, then you can try to funkify it, dig?

+1, Oscar Stagnaro's book is unique in that it presents the first 15 or so play-a-long exercises in numerous latin styles with rhythmic variations and says that a player should not continue on with the book until he/she is comfortable with each of them. He says that if you continue on to the "funkier" grooves to soon, then you may actually end of sacrificing the groove, that's bad when you're trying to a pack a dance floor.

True Cuban Bass book is by Carlos Del Puerto (Sr.) & (the late) Silvio Vergara. Congratulations on you're Venezuelan wife!

+1, thank you for the correction...my ADD kicked in for a minute there! :D

Another crapload of good suggestions here: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366625

The general idea of that particular thread is this: dance. Learn to dance salsa.

As bass players, we often find ourselves playing different genres throughout our lives, and due to the huge following of salsa, you will find yourself in this one eventually. In other words, maybe there should be a sticky of this subject.

Nick

this keeps coming up! I played for 5 years in a salsa outfit, heres my best tips:

-practice clapping the clave and singing the bass tumbao rhythm. great because you can do it anywhere, while walking your pace can be the metronome.

-Learn the conga tumbao. Even better: learn the rest of the rhythm section patterns. Piano montuno, the cascara on the Timbales, etc...they all interlock.

-the Latin bass Book and True Cuban Bass as mentioned already.

-In addition to the suggested listening, Check out Cachao's "Master Sessions Vol I & II" or "Cuba Linda" for some tumbao mastery.

Thanks for everybody's input. I'm doin' the best this white boy can do to get behind this music. I've played trombone in the local community college Salsa bands (2) for the past 1.5 years and this year when no bass players showed up for one of the groups, I volunteered. Been listening to Willie Colon, Juan Pablo Torres and Celia. I can play cascara patterns on the drumset ...

Since my first post I've been continuing to work out against the 1/3 pulse, and have been trying to internalise the tumbao/clave rhythms by tapping quarters (or halfs) with my foot and clapping clave on left knee and tumbao on right. Still in the 'falls apart quickly' phase I'm afraid ...

This bass gig is both exciting and intimidating at the same time. Big group (15 or so) trumpets, saxes, violin, guitar(s), keys, timbales, bongos, conga, tres, vocalists doubling on hand percussion.

One thing that continues to perplex me is that a lot of time, nobody is playing clave, and its not obvious to my ear which parts of which percussion parts I should be locking with.

It feels best when I'm playing the basic 2+/4 tumbao against a 1/3 pulse, but sometimes I need to tap quarters to locate the eighths precisely.

Pretty excited about this semester's Latin stuff - bone on Weds, bass on Thurs. I'm totally down on the bass as percussion instrument in this context, and see this bass playing opportunity as a good one for trying to play largely non-technical stuff in perfect time and support the band. Already starting to see bone playing benefits from all the metronome/tumbao work I've been doing.

Keep those posts coming. Especially interested in specific 'practice this' kind of suggestions.

I like locking with the congas the best. Usually, you're closest to that guy (well, in the groups I was in). Something about that rhythm really helps the bass to drive. I lock in with the timbales player if the conga player is soloing or laying out. Outwardly, however, I do listen to all the percussion. Just like playing a jazz big band, I usually ignore the horns unless one is soloing.

Nick

Stagnaro book arrived on Friday. Good stuff!

Been working out with my new Stagnaro Latin Bass Book/CD. Good stuff! Been focusing on the first 3 studies - mostly reading the transcriptions. Improvising root/five basslines from chord symbols and maintaining tumbao is really difficult for me as my mind finds it difficult to put the root (or other first chordal tone) on beat 4 of the previous measure.

Seems to me that part of my problem is that I have tumbao 'turned around' insofar as it really isn't 2-and / 4, but 4 / 2-and from a harmonic perspective.

One thing that continues to perplex me is that a lot of time, nobody is playing clave, and its not obvious to my ear which parts of which percussion parts I should be locking with.


Therin lies the value of learning the rhythms of the conga tumbao, piano monutno, and the timbale cascara.

although the conga tumbao is usually a 1 bar pattern so it doesn't help as far as identifying the 2 vs 3 side. (I say usually cuz there is a 2 drum conga pattern that drops a bass conga hit on the 3 side IIRC)

The piano montuno and the timbale cascara are definately 2 bar deals, tho.

The Salsa Guidebook byRebeca Mauleon is an excellent intro to the ensemble parts.

You're beginning to see the your way through the musical puzzle. More ideas will come. Work it daily & give it some time 8-)

Practicing tapping the clave rhythm with my foot while playing a tumbao (very slowly at first) really helped me get comfortable. Maybe give that a shot as well.

One of the most important aspects of this music (that I've found at least) is the various ways that different instruments interact rhythmically. Focus on this and things will probably get a lot clearer.

Been working out with my new Stagnaro Latin Bass Book/CD. Good stuff! Been focusing on the first 3 studies - mostly reading the transcriptions. Improvising root/five basslines from chord symbols and maintaining tumbao is really difficult for me as my mind finds it difficult to put the root (or other first chordal tone) on beat 4 of the previous measure.

Seems to me that part of my problem is that I have tumbao 'turned around' insofar as it really isn't 2-and / 4, but 4 / 2-and from a harmonic perspective.

Work with the simple I-IV-V-IV progression and once you've got that down without turning it around go to iim7 V7 IMaj7 and then on to other progressions like the blues.

This site has some good info:

http://www.bigsalsa.com/beatstut.html

+1 to all the other suggestions regarding the clave. But the thing that really helped me to get the 2+ is that it comes right after the conga slap. A really good (and accessible) example of a straightforward syncopated tumbao is Candela on the Buena Vista album. It's mostly over two chords so it's a good tune to practise getting the rhythm locked down to.

Stagnaro book arrived on Friday. Good stuff!

+1!

This one is good too: Afro-Cuban Bass Grooves (http://www.amazon.com/Afro-Cuban-Bass-Grooves-Aaron-Stang/dp/1576239101) by Manny Patiño & Jorge Moreno.

Carlo

One thing that continues to perplex me is that a lot of time, nobody is playing clave, and its not obvious to my ear which parts of which percussion parts I should be locking with.


This is something that I both love and hate at the same time! The clave is internalized so well with really great latin musicians that nobody needs to actually play that pattern, it's all implied. Frustrating from a learning standpoint, but amazing from a performance standpoint.

I've also heard stories about great latin players that don't tap 1 & 3 with their foot at all but rather tap the clave pattern. Definitely advanced but certainly something to strive for.

You know, not that I'm anywhere near an expert on this, but what really did help me feel and internalize the rhythm more is was learning how to salsa dance. Not that one lesson did any real wonders for me either.

BUT, I felt how everything fell into place. The dancing always made these stops on 4, which coincidentally is where the bass is always landing.

I'm not the best subdivider or counter, but when you feel that pulse, especially in the kinesthetic-physical way, it I think falls into place much easier. The theory becomes much more practical.

Besides, dancing to me, helps develop anyone's sense of time and rhythm, period. It's my advice to all my students.

You know, not that I'm anywhere near an expert on this, but what really did help me feel and internalize the rhythm more is was learning how to salsa dance. Not that one lesson did any real wonders for me either.

BUT, I felt how everything fell into place. The dancing always made these stops on 4, which coincidentally is where the bass is always landing.

I'm not the best subdivider or counter, but when you feel that pulse, especially in the kinesthetic-physical way, it I think falls into place much easier. The theory becomes much more practical.

Besides, dancing to me, helps develop anyone's sense of time and rhythm, period. It's my advice to all my students.

+1 (It also makes you more popular with the ladies during the set breaks!:bassist:)

+1 bazillion to listening. As a student of AfroCuban Percussion I don't know how many times I've seen folks just not getting it when all they listen to is rock etc. It's also better to listen to some older more down home stuff - Quarteto Patria for example. Cuban Son will have the clave/s being played as well. When you are listening to masters and more advanced stuff they are often breaking the rules because they know the rules in the first place. With the folkloric and Rumba that I am into Yoruba Andabo and Conjunto Clave y Guaguanco smoke, but drop it down to some older stuff or some Grupo AfroCuba de Matanzas if you are just learning.

And don't always listen to disect and study, just hang out and listen for enjoyment and you will be amazed at how much you will absorb. Dancing would be similar.

Traditionally Cubans count and write the clave (and 6/8 bell patterns) in two and not four. I do both. They also do not speak of the two side and the three side, clave = the whole phrase. From what I understand that is something that American Jazzers came up with.

When you do get a handle on it you might try listening to some AfroCuban folkloric and Rumba to hear where it all came from.

Thanks for everybody's input. I'm doin' the best this white boy can do to get behind this music. I've played trombone in the local community college Salsa bands (2) for the past 1.5 years and this year when no bass players showed up for one of the groups, I volunteered.

A kind of similar story happened to me, as I was playing alto sax for two years in latin and then salsa band in music school. Now, it is 1.5 years I am playing the bass with a non professional salsa band. My experience is that the statement "everything is in the clave" which sounds so mysterious to me some years ago is a fantastic discovery right now as I understand better how latin music is built. Please, note that understanding how it is built doesn't mean that you feel the latin music, but definitely helps.
I discovered that tumbao on the conga, cascara, contra, piano montuno, is built upon/around the clave. I think I played better on the bass, but can not yet tapp the clave with my foot while playing, but I will. One noticeable thing is that I don't tapp the pulse with my feet while playing, I am trying to hear where is the clave on the others instruments.
I also took dance lesson which definitely helps feel the music and what the public feel when they are listening and dancing.
Well, there is still a long road for me to feel salsa (not only music, but also dance, culture and spirit) but I have the impression that I am playing tumbao bass more and more as a second nature, and that is really amazing how you bring groove with that !