hey, i would like to know more chord progressions, i think i have the basic concept of it now, i know the Blues progressions, 1, 4, 5, but how do you know if its minor or major? Is that something you have to just listen for?
Also how do Modes work with them? if i'm playing the Blues chord progression, lets say in A major, A would be Ionian, but how would you know what modes to play over the other 2 chord changes? it woulnt just be following the modes along the Major scale would it? so D would be Lydian and E would be Mixolydian?
Where could i learn some differant progressions?

Every song has a chord progression so start with songs you already know. Write out the chords. Figure out the key then you can number the chords basic from that.

A basic theory book will explain all this in detail. Simply put you take a scale like a major scale. Then you harmonize the scale by stacking the notes of the scale in thirds the way basic chords are built. Then figure out the type of chords from stacking the notes created. Last you number the chords based on the scale degree the root note is. Also use Roman numerals that is the standard in theory.

So C major scale C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
Harmonize it. C Ma7, Dmi7, Emi7, FMa7, G7, Ami7, Bmi7b5, CMa7
Analysis I=CMa7, II=Dmi7, III=Emi7, IV=FMa7, V=G7, VI=Ami7, VII-Bmi7b5
(some schools will use lower case Roman numeral for minor chords)

So with that someone could tell you were playing a II V I in C major and you know to play Dmi7, G7, CMa7.

This process can be done to any scale or mode.

There are books on common chord progressions, but most people learn them by analyzing the songs they already know. As you learn sophisticated songs you learn more types of chord progressions. Now for a beginner in theory and someone who plays Rock some songs don't fit the diatonic harmonized major scale. Power chords allow you go anywhere because you are tossing out the 3rd. Then many songwriters use chords that require more advanced theory to hang a label on the chords. Things like a song in C major that has Ab and Bb chords in the song. The Ab and Bb come from something in theory called Parallel keys and Modal Interchange. In simple terms your song is in C major, but you borrowed chords from C minor the parallel key. Later you will find most chord progression use strong or common root movement of chords. As a bass player you become familiar with strong root movements, that is how you can anticipate where a song is going even if you never played it before.

So start with what you already know because your ear knows the sound already. Get a book on theory and start learning the labels theory puts on things so you know what to call things. Then as you learn more songs you will expand your knowledge of chord progressions.

Every song has a chord progression so start with songs you already know. Write out the chords. Figure out the key then you can number the chords basic from that.

A basic theory book will explain all this in detail. Simply put you take a scale like a major scale. Then you harmonize the scale by stacking the notes of the scale in thirds the way basic chords are built. Then figure out the type of chords from stacking the notes created. Last you number the chords based on the scale degree the root note is. Also use Roman numerals that is the standard in theory.

So C major scale C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
Harmonize it. C Ma7, Dmi7, Emi7, FMa7, G7, Ami7, Bmi7b5, CMa7
Analysis I=CMa7, II=Dmi7, III=Emi7, IV=FMa7, V=G7, VI=Ami7, VII-Bmi7b5
(some schools will use lower case Roman numeral for minor chords)

So with that someone could tell you were playing a II V I in C major and you know to play Dmi7, G7, CMa7.

This process can be done to any scale or mode.

There are books on common chord progressions, but most people learn them by analyzing the songs they already know. As you learn sophisticated songs you learn more types of chord progressions. Now for a beginner in theory and someone who plays Rock some songs don't fit the diatonic harmonized major scale. Power chords allow you go anywhere because you are tossing out the 3rd. Then many songwriters use chords that require more advanced theory to hang a label on the chords. Things like a song in C major that has Ab and Bb chords in the song. The Ab and Bb come from something in theory called Parallel keys and Modal Interchange. In simple terms your song is in C major, but you borrowed chords from C minor the parallel key. Later you will find most chord progression use strong or common root movement of chords. As a bass player you become familiar with strong root movements, that is how you can anticipate where a song is going even if you never played it before.

So start with what you already know because your ear knows the sound already. Get a book on theory and start learning the labels theory puts on things so you know what to call things. Then as you learn more songs you will expand your knowledge of chord progressions.

Great post, but since the chords in the C major scale would be.

Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 and Bmi7 b5.
Let's say in any mode of C, how would you know what chords there are.
In Major it's, I=Maj,II=Minor,III=Minor,IV=Major,V=Dominant,VII=M inor, and VIII=Diminished you can say.

How would you figure out the chords for any mode like Phygrian,Dominant,Aeolian(Minor),Lydian,Mixolydian ,Locrian, and Ionian(Major).

I'm just curious too, why are the chords like that in Major?

From what I know, the modes and chords work together diatonically, so you would have chord I: Ionian, II: Dorian, III: Phrygian, IV: Lydian, V: Mixolydian, VI:, Aeolian, and VII: Locrian. As stated before, I is Major, II is Minor, III is Minor, IV is Major, V is Dominant, VI is Minor and VIII is diminshed.

Hope that helped, and made some sense.

Andy.

From what I know, the modes and chords work together diatonically, so you would have chord I: Ionian, II: Dorian, III: Phrygian, IV: Lydian, V: Mixolydian, VI:, Aeolian, and VII: Locrian. As stated before, I is Major, II is Minor, III is Minor, IV is Major, V is Dominant, VI is Minor and VIII is diminshed.

Hope that helped, and made some sense.

Andy.

It didn't help me...

Anyway, maybe I'm bad at clarifying. For example,

If we broke up a C Lydian mode.

C D E F# G A B

(Lydian mode is basically your major scale, except the fourth degree is sharp.)

1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7. = Lydian formula

How would you find out the chords for that scale?

It didn't help me...

Anyway, maybe I'm bad at clarifying. For example,

If we broke up a C Lydian mode.

C D E F# G A B

(Lydian mode is basically your major scale, except the fourth degree is sharp.)

1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7. = Lydian formula

How would you find out the chords for that scale?

Oh right, I thought you were asking a much simpler question. I do apologise...

Personally, I'd assume that it would be G major, as it has the one sharp (F#) and Lydian is the fourth mode.

This then leads me to assume that the chords for C Lydian would (diatonically) be the same as G major, but starting on the 4th, or the C. This means we get...

Cmaj7, D7, Em7, F#m7b5, Gmaj7, Am7, and Bm7

This may be wrong, but the arpeggios of each of those chords fit into C Lydian, and therefore and G Major. If I've completely confused you or if anyone else has any thoughts on this, please shoot me a PM, and I'll do my best to clarify.

Hope this helped,
Andy

Oh right, I thought you were asking a much simpler question. I do apologise...

Personally, I'd assume that it would be G major, as it has the one sharp (F#) and Lydian is the fourth mode.

This then leads me to assume that the chords for C Lydian would (diatonically) be the same as G major, but starting on the 4th, or the C. This means we get...

Cmaj7, D7, Em7, F#m7b5, Gmaj7, Am7, and Bm7

This may be wrong, but the arpeggios of each of those chords fit into C Lydian, and therefore and G Major. If I've completely confused you or if anyone else has any thoughts on this, please shoot me a PM, and I'll do my best to clarify.

Hope this helped,
Andy

Ahh, I get what you're saying. I can take any mode and if has the same notes as a certain major scale then it'll be the chords of that major scale? Thanks, just for another trick how about C Phygrian?

C Db E F G Ab Bb C

Omfg, anyone?!

Ahh, I get what you're saying. I can take any mode and if has the same notes as a certain major scale then it'll be the chords of that major scale? Thanks, just for another trick how about C Phygrian?

What scale do you think it is?

Omfg, anyone?!

Even though C phygian is its own scale C Db Eb F G Ab Bb, its in the key of Ab Major.

What scale do you think it is?



Even though C phygian is its own scale C Db Eb F G Ab Bb, its in the key of Ab Major.

Thank you ,but is there an easier way to figure out the mode's alternative major scale.

Like you said C Phyrgian = Ab Major
Is there an alternative to figuring that out instead of counting all those notes

Just remember the order of chords in a major scale (maj7 m7 m7 maj7 Dom7 m7 mi7b5)

So sticking with the C Major example, the chords in C major starting on the I are: Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 and Bmi7 b5.

So if you're playing A Aeolian (aka, A Minor), you are playing the same notes as the C major scale, just starting on an A. Therefore, the chords will be the same as those in the C major scale, just starting with the A. So Am7 Bmi7b5 Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7.

A good thing to know would be the order of the modes. That way, say if you were playing in G dorian, you would know that dorian is the second mode, therefore the major scale it is based on must be the note in G dorian one interval lower than G. That note is A, so G dorian is the same as A major. As another example, you could be playing in F Myxolydian, know that Myxolydian is the fifth mode, therefore the note in F myxolydian 4 intervals below F, which is Bb, is the parent major scale.

If you're looking for a shortcut beyond that, you won't find one. You have to be able to figure out what the parent scale of any mode is. A good way to learn would to play all the modes in each key, one key at a time, going through the cycle of fifths. This will expose you to the order of the modes and the patterns involved with them, as well as the key signatures and notes in every key. Once you really understand the concepts, you won't need a shortcut.

Just remember the order of chords in a major scale (maj7 m7 m7 maj7 Dom7 m7 mi7b5)

So sticking with the C Major example, the chords in C major starting on the I are: Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 and Bmi7 b5.

So if you're playing A Aeolian (aka, A Minor), you are playing the same notes as the C major scale, just starting on an A. Therefore, the chords will be the same as those in the C major scale, just starting with the A. So Am7 Bmi7b5 Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7.

A good thing to know would be the order of the modes. That way, say if you were playing in G dorian, you would know that dorian is the second mode, therefore the major scale it is based on must be the note in G dorian one interval lower than G. That note is A, so G dorian is the same as A major. As another example, you could be playing in F Myxolydian, know that Myxolydian is the fifth mode, therefore the note in F myxolydian 4 intervals below F, which is Bb, is the parent major scale.

If you're looking for a shortcut beyond that, you won't find one. You have to be able to figure out what the parent scale of any mode is. A good way to learn would to play all the modes in each key, one key at a time, going through the cycle of fifths. This will expose you to the order of the modes and the patterns involved with them, as well as the key signatures and notes in every key. Once you really understand the concepts, you won't need a shortcut.

This may seem dumb, but...what exactly is an interval...

I sometimes mess up on theory :crying:

Here is some information on intervals

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music)

"The number of degrees between F and B for example is 4, therefore the interval is a fourth." from Wikipedia.

Earthday you were off by a bit :smug:

Or maybe I'm wrong...?

That's a very detailed and worthwhile read. But basically what I mean when I say interval is the distance between notes within a scale. Assume the notes of the scale you are playing in are the only ones that exist, and that the distance between each note along the scale is 1 interval. In C major, C to D would be an interval. C to F would be 3 intervals. D to E would be one interval.

You can/should go deeper into the subject and learn about specific intervals. It's also really handy to be able to recognize specific intervals. Here's a cool trainer: http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id90_en.html

That's a very detailed and worthwhile read. But basically what I mean when I say interval is the distance between notes within a scale. Assume the notes of the scale you are playing in are the only ones that exist, and that the distance between each note along the scale is 1 interval. In C major, C to D would be an interval. C to F would be 3 intervals. D to E would be one interval.

You can/should go deeper into the subject and learn about specific intervals. It's also really handy to be able to recognize specific intervals. Here's a cool trainer: http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id90_en.html

Of course I should! For a 14 year old who's been playing a year and a half ,or 5 months. I want to progress faster and smash all the theory into my head as fast as possible. I like bass. :bassist:

"The number of degrees between F and B for example is 4, therefore the interval is a fourth." from Wikipedia.

Earthday you were off by a bit :smug:

Or maybe I'm wrong...?

I'm not sure of the context, but I'd say the article is wrong. F to a Bflat would be a forth. F to a B would be a tritone (aka flat fifth) an interval you won't find used very often.

Also, perhaps Scale Degrees is the word I should have been using rather than Intervals.

Oh yeah, Earthday about your tricks finding the parent major scale of a certain mode, what exaclty did you mean by F-Bb is 4 intervals? What kind of intervals?

I'm not sure of the context, but I'd say the article is wrong. F to a Bflat would be a forth. F to a B would be a tritone (aka flat fifth) an interval you won't find used very often.

Also, perhaps Scale Degrees is the word I should have been using rather than Intervals.

Oh, nevermind. 4th scale degree. Now I get it, you just confused me the word interval. Stupid me.

Well take an F major scale. F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E.
Bb is the forth note of the scale. So F to Bb is a forth. F to G would be a second, because G is the second note of the scale.

So if you knew that Lydian is the 4th mode of the major scale, you would know that Bb Lydian is the same as F major because Bb is the 4th of F in F major. If you knew that Dorian was the second mode of the major scale, you would know that G Dorian is the same as F major, because G is the second of F major.

If you're playing in Bb Lydian and want to know what major scale is its parent, if you knew that Lydian was the 4th mode, then you know whatever note the mode starts on is also the 4th of the parent major scale, so you could simply count down.

Well take an F major scale. F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E.
Bb is the forth note of the scale. So F to Bb is a forth. F to G would be a second, because G is the second note of the scale.

So if you knew that Lydian is the 4th mode of the major scale, you would know that Bb Lydian is the same as F major because Bb is the 4th of F in F major. If you knew that Dorian was the second mode of the major scale, you would know that G Dorian is the same as F major, because G is the second of F major.

If you're playing in Bb Lydian and want to know what major scale is its parent, if you knew that Lydian was the 4th mode, then you know whatever note the mode starts on is also the 4th of the parent major scale, so you could simply count down.

Thanks for all of your help, I get it now.

http://www.amazon.com/Chord-Wheel-Ultimate-Tool-Musicians/dp/0634021427/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205138485&sr=8-1

cheat. this will help you with the chord progressions a LOT.

Great post, but since the chords in the C major scale would be.

Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 and Bmi7 b5.
Let's say in any mode of C, how would you know what chords there are.
In Major it's, I=Maj,II=Minor,III=Minor,IV=Major,V=Dominant,VII=M inor, and VIII=Diminished you can say.

How would you figure out the chords for any mode like Phygrian,Dominant,Aeolian(Minor),Lydian,Mixolydian ,Locrian, and Ionian(Major).

I'm just curious too, why are the chords like that in Major?


Scanning the posts it appear everyone is saying it. If you have C major scale, Ionian mode, and harmonize it. Then all the chord from modes of the C major scale are going to be the same, just change what you consider I or V or etc. Scale notes are going to stack into the same chords.

When you hear about Modal tunes, most of the time they are tunes based a static chord. Then when they change chords they are usually changing key when they do. Take the classic Miles Davis tune So What a song many learn to solo on. The song has a chord symbol of Dmi7, but some charts will actually put Dmi7 (dorian). Then it does have a secord chord Ebmi7. Ebmi7 is not in D Dorian scale, it is a key change to Eb Dorian.

When talking about theory and stuff musicians hear/read experienced players talk about modes and try to learn about modes before they have a solid foundation in diatonic harmony and theory. Also the word Mode itself is an overloaded word. What it means to soloist is different from a KB or guitar player comp'ing chords, or to a composer.

Even from standpoint of composition/chord progressions Modes are used differently.

In classical music traditional theory text will have lists of pieces written bases on modes. For classical composers modes had associated moods and were used based on those moods.

In Jazz composers mainly use modes like the Miles Davis' So What and they were using few chords and most changed key when they changed chords.

In Pop/Rock the composers IMO aren't thinking about theory very much when writing tunes. They usually know diatonic harmony from study or years of experience. They want to do something different in a song and hit some chord and it sounds good and they use it. At first they probably think they are breaking the rules (who needs theory types), but in reality they chord they grabbed has a label in theory like Parallel Keys, Modal Interchange, V7 of (fill in the blank).

Okay I can hear the rumbling of so why study this theory stuff if guys are shoot from the hip and doing what their ear tells them sound good. Well their are times they don't find that chord, they don't think outside the box, they could be writing with a deadline and have a melody they can't harmonize. That is where knowledge of things like parallel keys. strong root movement, V7 of n and so on come in handy. They give you a bigger toolbox to build/compose with. It can say you time in the 11th hours to finish that song. Instead to whacking away at chords trying to finish an answer. You have musical tools so you have an approach to looking for answers.

I think I've created more questions than I answered, but I think there is some of what you were looking for.

I would say F up to B is a fourth, albeit an augmented fourth - F,G,A,B is four steps up the scale. As someone pointed out, the fourth step of F major is B flat, so B natural would be an augmented (sharpened) fourth.

A fifth above F has to be some sort of C, as F up to C is five steps.

To go back to the F to B interval, if you call the B a C flat (the enharmonic equivalent) then it would be a diminished fifth.

Whatever you call them, they sound the same:)

F to a B would be a tritone (aka flat fifth) an interval you won't find used very often.

Except for in practically every song written. :) E.g., any tune that contains a Dom 7 chord contains a tritone interval, which is the interval between the 3rd and flat 7 of the Dominant 7 chord (which can be functioning or non-functioning). The notes F and B can both be found in the G7 and Db7 (F and Cb, the enharmonic equivalent of B) chords. The sound of the tritone is the key to the tension that is released when a functioning Dom7 chord resolves. It would be difficult to go through a day without hearing a tritone somewhere.

Ahh, I get what you're saying. I can take any mode and if has the same notes as a certain major scale then it'll be the chords of that major scale? Thanks, just for another trick how about C Phygrian?

C Db E F G Ab Bb C



Well, for example, when some smart tb'er pointed out that the notes in the earlier example--- C D E F# G A B, were the notes in the key of G, that's a good way to do it, But now you have to know your scales. 1 sharp equals key of G...
Your above example (c Db E F G Ab Bb c) for c phrygian would actually be C Db Eb F G Ab Bb, having 4 flats.
4 flats equals key of Ab.

This might help with keys:

15 keys in music

G D A E B F# C#=sharp keys
F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb=flat keys
and the key of C, no sharps or flats

Here is a trick to remember them:

Sharp keys= Good Deeds Are Ever Bearing Fruit Constantly
(remembering that the F in fruit is F#, and the C in Constantly is C#)

flat keys= Farmer Brown Eats Apple Dumplings Granny Cooks
(remembering that the F in farmer is F maj, and the rest are flat, Brown is Bb, Eats is Eb, etc.)

Now, the number of sharps and flats corresponds , for example,
Key of G (Good, 1 #), Key of D, 2#'s, etc...
How many sharps in the key of E?
(good deeds are Ever...) 4 sharps...
How many flats in the key of Db?
(Farmer Brown Eats Apple Dumplings...) 5 flats...

What key has 3 sharps?

(Good Deeds Are...) key of A has 3 sharps...
Hope this is making some sense...


shawn

Sometimes it's good to forget the theory for a moment, and just play. Explore new chords and chord progressions. Struggle a little with transcribing tricky songs and learn to play them. You'll eventually learn the theory behind a lot of the stuff as well, and learn to identify different progressions by ear.

A good start is however to know the major and minor scales and how chords are built up. Just fooling around with major and minor (or plain power chords) gets a bit boring after a while. Learn how maj 7, min.7, dom.7, 6, 9, m9, 11, 13, sus2 and sus4 chords sound as well as for example 7#9, 7b9, m7#5#9, m7b5. The list of chords is endless. Learn let's say one chord a day and try to remember how it sounds. I strongly recommend a guitar or keyboard to learn chord theory. It's plenty useful.

Also how do Modes work with them? if i'm playing the Blues chord progression, lets say in A major, A would be Ionian, but how would you know what modes to play over the other 2 chord changes? it woulnt just be following the modes along the Major scale would it? so D would be Lydian and E would be Mixolydian?

Most blues tunes use a major scale with a flat 7. I believe thats mixolydian. If blues where diatonic then you would stay within that scale and use Ionian on the 4 and Dorian on the 5 but it's not diatonic and you would use mixolydian for all three chords.