Is it a bad idea to use Koa as a neck or body wood due to weight or grain issues? I think that I read some where that koa is pretty close to mahogany in weight but I cant remember where. I know that koa has a some what wavy grain to it. Would this eliminate it from being ideal for a neck?

Koa? I've only seen it as a neck wood once (in a picture). It can be used for everything but a fretboard. As a body wood it's a lot like mahogany. The Koa strat(MIK) up at a shop near me doesn't feel heavy at all. I'm told it's getting hard to get anymore. Check here for some more wood info:
http://www.warmoth.com/bass/options/options_bodywoods.cfm
Josh

Carvin and Peavey have used it in necks. The Peavey I saw was a koa/purpleheart neck thru with koa body, and was gorgeous. And not heavy at all.

Possible, but why? Koa is incredibly expensive and there are many other quality options that wont burn a hole in your wallet.

Would this work for neck stock. Check out the wavy grain lines. Would this be a problem?

Possible, but why? Koa is incredibly expensive and there are many other quality options that wont burn a hole in your wallet.

Yes it is expensive. But I have also seen some good deals out there too.

Koa was not nearly as expensive in 1990. The Peavy Unity Koa I played was a '91.

I've played this for over a decade & have no complaints.

http://www.scottglaser.net/images/koabass.jpg

Koa is a wonderful tonewood with great warm characteristics. The limited supply of koa has brought up the price in the last decade, but it is still available.

It would not be a good neck wood due to strength issues, but definitely use it on the body for a very warm and articulate sound.

Would this work for neck stock. Check out the wavy grain lines. Would this be a problem?

if thats the peice, is would be much better as a body top. don't waste that on a neck back that is rarely seen

Would this work for neck stock. Check out the wavy grain lines. Would this be a problem?

I would definitely bookmatch it and use it on the body rather than the neck.

Use a good piece of maple to contrast the neck with the body if you do use the koa for the body.

It would not be a good neck wood due to strength issues, but definitely use it on the body for a very warm and articulate sound.From published numbers, koa has 87% of the stiffness of Hard maple. On that account, I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a bass neck that also had some "extra stiff" woods, like purpleheart or bubinga, or had CF reinforcement.

Is it a bad idea to use Koa as a neck or body wood due to weight or grain issues? I think that I read some where that koa is pretty close to mahogany in weight but I cant remember where. I know that koa has a some what wavy grain to it. Would this eliminate it from being ideal for a neck?

Never seen it used as a neck myself, i'm sure it would be possible, especially if the neck had a bit of extra reinforcing, maybe do some research into how well it holds threads, particularly if the neck is going to be taken on and off. it is used in the finest ukeleles and in some very high end acoustic guitars for fronts, backs and even sides!

since koa grows almost exclusively in hawaii it is endangered and pricey, i can't even find any in australia, seems no suppliers will touch it! luckily we have an equally beautiful wood that costs a lot less here, Tasmanian and melbourne blackwood (acacia melanoxylon) and apparently sounds almost identical! viva le Australia! i don't know much about it's availability over there, but maybe check it out hey?

http://www.indeco.net.au/blackwood.htm

sorry about the slightly irrelevant wood, but it was one of the better pics that i found, no pic can do justice t

Possibly a little off subject but Warwick used Koa as a top for their limited edition bass in 2004. Sounds amazing. No idea what it would sound like as a neck wood though:hmm:.

http://www.warwick.de/modules/produkte/produkt.php?submenuID=14667&linkmode=SINGLE&katID=14480&linkID=25255&cl=EN

From published numbers, koa has 87% of the stiffness of Hard maple. On that account, I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a bass neck that also had some "extra stiff" woods, like purpleheart or bubinga, or had CF reinforcement.

By itself koa is not a suitable neck wood. Even when married to stringers of purpleheart, bubinga, etc. you will have continuous issues with it. The wood will not work well in the neck due to the lack of sustain. A neck wood needs to be exceptionally dense to allow for tone to carry through from the headstock through the bridge. A soft wood (see below) will not allow for this, and will create a neck that is dead, with little to no sustain, and a very warm tone that will not carry any brightness.

Remember that 13% softer is quite a bit of difference, but actually...

If you research the Janka Hardness Scale, you will find Koa listed at a hardness of 900 while Hard Sugar Maple and North American Maple are at 1450, which is a 38% difference. For contrast, Purpleheart rates at 1850-1860 in hardness, or over twice as hard as Koa.

I have not bought this piece yet. I have a maple top and back set and am looking to purchase more wood for a first build project. I would use this on the out side pieces of a 3 piece neck with flamed maple in the center and 2 sets of double laminates.

My Carvin 5 string is all Koa, 2 piece solid koa neck and koa body wings. It does have graphite reinforcement bars in the neck and the neck is pretty stable. I do adjust it maybe once a year and I have had the bass since 1992.

I really like the tone and have no problems with a lack of sustain.

I agree though that a piece like that should be used for a body or a top, too beautiful to hide.

By itself koa is not a suitable neck wood. Ignoring this, for now.Even when married to stringers of purpleheart, bubinga, etc. you will have continuous issues with it. unqualified statement. The wood will not work well in the neck due to the lack of sustain. unqualified statement. A neck wood needs to be exceptionally dense to allow for tone to carry through from the headstock through the bridge. Wrong, proven a thousand times. A soft wood (see below) will not allow for this, and will create a neck that is dead, with little to no sustain, and a very warm tone that will not carry any brightness. A hundred thousand guitar necks of mahogany say no.

Remember that 13% softer is quite a bit of difference, but actually...

If you research the Janka Hardness Scale, you will find Koa listed at a hardness of 900 while Hard Sugar Maple and North American Maple are at 1450, which is a 38% difference. For contrast, Purpleheart rates at 1850-1860 in hardness, or over twice as hard as Koa.And now I expect you to legitimately explain how a side-grain indent impression test controls tone. :rollno:

I fail to see how Janka is relevant.

Australian blackwood is a close relative. It is limited in availability in the states but an excellent substitute. I am considering making a bass with an Aussie blackwood neck.

I personally would think koa could be fine as a neck wood. I have used mahogany and sapele and canarywood. Those are less stiff than maple. Certainly stiffer is better and while those experiments produced fine instruments, I tend to pair less stiff woods with something stiff like a jatoba core these days when it counts.

All that said I would use that piece of koa for something other than a neck.

agreed - I would not use that piece of Koa for neck construction


and since this is your first build, why are you wasting the big $$$ on fancy woods when you haven't even worked thru all the details on your first neck? IMNSHO you shoule be focusing on construction techniques and not shizzle for your first few builds. to do anything else is simply wasting your money


IMO your first build should be along this:

* flatsawn or quartersawn Eastern Maple neck
* fingerboard of choice, but not something outrageously expensive or exotic
* Alder, Ash, Mahogany, Black Walnut, Poplar, or Basswood body without a fancy top (save the top thingy for your second build)


the first few builds are all about getting your woodworking techniques up to par for building an electric solid body instrument. it's about measurement tolerances, woodworking skills, and assembly details

just like your first car - you don't learn to drive in a Hummer (unless you're daddy's spoiled brat)


just my 2 Indian Rupees written with the perspective of 20/20 hindsight

all the best,

R

I understand that, But if I can pick up nice woods and not spend a lot of money I think I should give it a shot. I bought 2 matching sets of book matched flamed maple with some slight spalt lines for $23.00. If I mess one up I have a second one identical to it. The piece pictured on the first page is big enough to make 2 necks out of, possibly 3 with a maple center piece. Would it be worth it if I could buy that for $50.00? Again, I understand what you are saying and you are right, its just that as I look on different sites for lumber supplies I see the occasional bargain on some nicer stuff that might be worth looking into as well.

depending on the actual dimensions, $50 would indeed be a bargain.

but bargain or not, I wouldn't recommend using that piece of Koa for a neck build. tops - sure, but not necks. to be clear, I wouldn't recommend using any kind of wood with that kind of figuring for a neck build

if you were to insist on utilizing Koa for a neck build, look for Koa that is straight grained (you know, the boring unfancy stuff), with grain that runs parallel to the centerline, with as little run out as possible, and that is properly dried (either air or kiln)

all the best,

R

depending on the actual dimensions, $50 would indeed be a bargain.

but bargain or not, I wouldn't recommend using that piece of Koa for a neck build. tops - sure, but not necks. to be clear, I wouldn't recommend using any kind of wood with that kind of figuring for a neck build

if you were to insist on utilizing Koa for a neck build, look for Koa that is straight grained (you know, the boring unfancy stuff), with grain that runs parallel to the centerline, with as little run out as possible, and that is properly dried (either air or kiln)

all the best,

R

Thanks rodent. That what I was looking for.

Ignoring this, for now.unqualified statement.unqualified statement.Wrong, proven a thousand times.A hundred thousand guitar necks of mahogany say no.And now I expect you to legitimately explain how a side-grain indent impression test controls tone. :rollno:

1. By itself Koa is not a suitable neck wood. It is a soft wood that adds great warmth to the tone of the instrument it gets used on, however it is not strong enough on it's own, ie. w/ truss rod(s) installed to resist the pull of strings. It will overly rely upon the truss rod(s) and especially if just one rod is used, will tend to twist over time due to the unbalanced string tension to either side of the truss rod.

2. Even when married to stringers of purpleheart, bubinga, etc. you will have continuous issues with it. Different wood densities and grain patterns such as are common with Koa will have issues including swelling and contracting at different rates than the stringers, as well as be much more susceptible to dents, gouges, dings, etc. than the harder woods.

3. The wood will not work well in the neck due to the lack of sustain. Koa is a wood that adds wonderful tones to the instrument, but sustain is NOT a feature of the wood. That is why most (mainly the at least half-intelligent ones) custom bass manufacturers use it on the body where it's tone enhancing capabilities can best be utilized, not in the neck where it will limit the sustain of the instrument; remember, the more stiff the connection between the nut and bridge is, the longer the string will continue to vibrate if left alone. A string attached to a railroad track will continue to vibrate long after one attached to wood will, because there is a more consistent tension created which interferes less with the natural movement of the string.

4. A neck wood needs to be exceptionally dense to allow for tone to carry through from the headstock through the bridge. This has not been proven wrong a thousand times as you state, it is the reason balsa wood is not used in necks as well. With minor variances, the denser the wood, the stiffer the neck will be, and thus the more sustain it will have.

5. A soft wood (see below) will not allow for this, and will create a neck that is dead, with little to no sustain, and a very warm tone that will not carry any brightness. A hundred thousand guitar necks of mahogany have mostly ebony on the fretboard to help with the brightness and the sustain, and they use small strings that are naturally brighter (the smaller the string diameter, the brighter the tone.

6. Remember that 13% softer is quite a bit of difference, but actually...

If you research the Janka Hardness Scale, you will find Koa listed at a hardness of 900 while Hard Sugar Maple and North American Maple are at 1450, which is a 38% difference. For contrast, Purpleheart rates at 1850-1860 in hardness, or over twice as hard as Koa. The Janka Hardness Scale is a rating system that determines the relative hardness of multitudes of woods. This scale shows the relative hardness of some of the woods mentioned in this thread, and does not affect tone in and of itself. The information does however tell us some of the characteristics of the wood being discussed and does tell us it's resistance to pressure forces on it. This is not only beneficial from the aspect of knowing the density and hardness of the wood and therefore its suitability for a specific purpose on the instrument but it also lets us know if the wood may be easily damaged by slight bumps, bangs, etc. The reference I made was to correct an INACCURATE statement in a previous post and did not state, whether explicitly or implicitly that the hardness of a wood alone determines its tone.

Hopefully this will help you better understand those ignored, unqualified, and proven wrong a hundred thousand times statements I made.

I do apologize for assuming a higher level of basic knowledge from you and expecting a little bit of QUIET from you on subjects like this that you obviously know little about. I know it is easy to armchair quarterback from the luxury of your own home, but a few quick quips and sarcastic comments won't help you get smarter, only shutting up and listening others will. I will over-explain and type s-l-o-w-l-y for you from now on.


............woah.... Kinda harsh, don't ya think..... :hmm:

Alaska

I was going to reply to all points in a professional, scientifically based, and independently verifiable manner. I have had many thoughtful, respectful, mutually enlightening, and satisfying exchanges on this forum. But after getting to the ad hominem attack at the end, forget it. It seems that it will not be worth my time.

I apologize for sounding a bit cranky on my janka vs. tone comment.

It doesn't excuse your tone, but the last comment didn't need to be added. Sorry.

By itself koa is not a suitable neck wood. Even when married to stringers of purpleheart, bubinga, etc. you will have continuous issues with it. The wood will not work well in the neck due to the lack of sustain. A neck wood needs to be exceptionally dense to allow for tone to carry through from the headstock through the bridge. A soft wood (see below) will not allow for this, and will create a neck that is dead, with little to no sustain, and a very warm tone that will not carry any brightness.
.

I'm sorry but this sounds very silly to me. Are you basing this from real world experience or things you've read?

Rob Allen uses Koa for necks.

1. Koa has been used successfully for necks.
2. The bass I played that had a mostly-koa neck sounded really good. There was no lack of sustain. I did not get the feeling that it was very fragile with respect to dents, and it was in good shape despite being 14 years NOS in a store infamous for the poor condition of its stock. Of course, it would be predicted to be more dentable than maple.
3. Obviously by evidence not only from the alembic origin days, but also from at least a hundred years of stringed instrument building, there is no problem in doing a laminated neck of differing woods. A single wood neck would avoid certain considerations, but proper wood choice, and balanced construction, make laminated necks quite appropriate.
4. Every stringed musical instrument has uneven tension on the two sides of the centerline due to uneven string tension across the set. Nearly all of these have a single truss rod. This has not caused all these necks to twist.
5. matt-fbb is someone who is well-versed in material properties, is skilled in properly applying engineering mechanics for analysis, and has built hundreds of necks over a course of years, using quite a variety of woods. I take his endorsement, of koa in this case, seriously.

What Pilotjones said!!!

Koa is a fine wood for applications of neck construction. Like any other wood it needs to be selected for proper grain stability. This does not rule out figured koa for necks, just squirrelly grain stuff, but that also applies to any neck wood selection for any instrument. Any given two pieces of same species on a work bench can be as much as 40% different in physical properties.

The problem arising in this thread (and others) isn't about technically accurate info it's about crap coming from poster (s) who's knowledge and experience doesn't rise the opinion level but are mere "thoughts" about what's up with koa or probably any other wood species and then want to argue about it as "facts".

Rob Allen is just a monster of a builder. That is some incredible koa.

I have built in the vicinity of 120 necks. I have never felt that sustain has been a practical issue on any of those necks. I do think that there is a scientific basis to expect variation in sustain due to materials, but practically speaking I think the impact of materials -- and this extends to include the brass versus aluminum bridge debate as well as neck joinery -- is insignificant inasmuch as the sustain requirements of 99.99% of musicians are met by any material that suffices structurally (i.e. does not flex too much or break).

I believe Carey Nordstrand made a bass with a spruce neck. I am certain he reinforced this neck with graphite, but while Sitka has very high stiffness to density, I believe it's stiffness to volume is relatively low. Feel free to check me on this, I don't have the numbers in front of me.

More to the OT, if you can get that board for $50, buy it. But if you are planning on making more than one instrument or even considering it, hang on to the board for a while.

I should add that Larry is right on w.r.t. proper selection. Mail order is a real crap shoot when it comes to neck woods. I'd still buy the koa, but you may find it is poorly suited for a neck in any case once you have it.

Too late. It sold on ebay for $78.00. I was looking for neck wood and once I was told that this was not a good candidate I stopped tracking it. But the search goes on. I have gotten the info that I need from this thread, thanks. At this point it is quite entertaining and informative.

Rob Allen uses Koa for necks.

He uses laminations of Koa and Ebony along with a truss rod system with his acoustic/electric bass guitars. He makes stunning instruments and I won't fault him on that at all. His instruments however mainly are shorter scale (I know he offers a 34" and 35" scale on one model) acoustic/electric and all of the reviews (I haven't played one myself) say his models sound just like an upright, with one being described by Bass Player Magazine as "superb doghouse-like thud and quick delay".

My point isn't that using Koa on the neck is instantly dooming your instrument to utter failure, but rather that the use of Koa in necks is not a good recommendation in most situations. It has a shorter sustain across the board (pun intended) than more commonly used neck woods, and this will have to be either embraced (tending toward a more acoustic/upright sound) or compensated for (lots of ebony or similar).

The problem arising in this thread (and others) isn't about technically accurate info it's about crap coming from poster (s) who's knowledge and experience doesn't rise the opinion level but are mere "thoughts" about what's up with koa or probably any other wood species and then want to argue about it as "facts".

I have to assume your reference is to my "crap" that "doesn't rise <above> the opinon level".

BTW, I notice that you don't list or sell Koa on your site as a possible neck wood. I understand that you dry and mill woods for everything from pens to guitar blanks, but you haven't actually offered anything more that your "thoughts" about what's up with Koa.

Thanks for the cheap dig, but you haven't added anything to this thread yet, while others of us are engaging in debate that will help fellow TB'ers from making uninformed decisions that could adversely affect their projects outcome.

He uses laminations of Koa and Ebony along with a truss rod system with his acoustic/electric bass guitars. He makes stunning instruments and I won't fault him on that at all. His instruments however mainly are shorter scale (I know he offers a 34" and 35" scale on one model)

The difference between Robs 34" 22 fret neck and his 18 fret 30" neck is roughly 4"(nut to 22nd fret on a 34" scale = 25.459 and 30" from nut to 18th = 19.393). This four inches makes or breaks the deal for koa in the neck? Then by this way of thinking any guitar neck made from koa is totally fine.

How come the last bass I made with a koa neck was a 35" with 24 frets and it has all the characteristics (sustain, stability etc) that you claim it will not? The bass is about 6 years old now and it played quite regularly by its owner. I am not attacking you here, but it seems like you aren't basing many of your statements on facts or real world experience. Bring the tech, my man :)


Thanks for the cheap dig, but you haven't added anything to this thread yet, while others of us are engaging in debate that will help fellow TB'ers from making uninformed decisions that could adversely affect their projects outcome.

Larry is absolutely contributing to this thread. He is one of the most qualified people on this board when it comes to wood. Edit: I didn't want to sell Larry short here, the man knows much more than just wood :)

I have to assume your reference is to my "crap" that "doesn't rise <above> the opinon level".

BTW, I notice that you don't list or sell Koa on your site as a possible neck wood. I understand that you dry and mill woods for everything from pens to guitar blanks, but you haven't actually offered anything more that your "thoughts" about what's up with Koa.

Thanks for the cheap dig, but you haven't added anything to this thread yet, while others of us are engaging in debate that will help fellow TB'ers from making uninformed decisions that could adversely affect their projects outcome.

You be wrong again, sir. You have no knowledge of what all I do or do not do, but have made statements of "fact" without having any true experience with my business. . There's an old saying, "If the shoes fits, wear it". Some folks just have no experience working with wood, but think their "thoughts" somehow rise to opinion and then fact level then think they have grounds to argue their "points". What this type of poster does is attempt to spread incorrrect information that actually does more damage than good. What is your personal, hands on experience with wood? With koa? Play nice.

screw koa, mahogany necks rule. mmmm yummy mahogany.

anyway on to a real post.

when it comes to wood choice for necks i love a single peice of quartersawn mahogany. mahogany is more stable than maple, lighter and i find it alot easyer to work with. people talk about carbon fiber rods and 3000 laminates to make the neck more stiff but it just seems like a bad idea to me. the wood is gunna move no matter what you do to it. will it move less if you add a bunch of purple heart and carbon fiber rods, yea, but it will move. when you do this stuff to it it just makes the neck alot harder to adjust, and you will have to adjust it. a single peice of good quartersawn wood (mahogany is my favorite but most hardwoods wood work including the infamous koa) with a good truss rod (i like single action but whatever floats your boat) is the way to go i think. i've seen this method used in 3,4,5,6, and 7 string basses (yea i said 3 strings, it was a weird instrument) and it always worked out great.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/Firebass6/untitled.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/Firebass6/P1230061.jpg
maple neck, ebony board koa body, bubinga top this thing sounds great

Are you positive that is Koa? It looks a great deal like White Limba / Korina. Regardless, killer looking bass!

I don't have much to add here except a couple of pictures for those who say they've never seen a koa neck.
Three of my Carvins:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/mgood1/DSCF1401a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/mgood1/DSCF1400a.jpg

The bass on the left is a BB75PF. It has three piece body sides of koa back, thin (1/8") maple center layer and flamed koa top. (The back has a lot of flame, but was sold as "regular koa" and not "flamed koa".) Neck is 5-piece koa and maple. (Mostly koa neck with a couple of maple stringers.)

The bass in the middle is a BB75P. Koa body sides and 5-piece maple/koa neck. (Mostly maple neck with a couple of koa stringers.) My number one bass and one of the best sounding basses I've ever heard.

The guitar on the right is a DC747. Koa neck and body sides. (Quite a bit of flame there, but not sold as "flamed koa.")

sorry you are right It is Korina I was enjoying the Koa thread Its been so long since I built this I got my woods mixed up

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/Firebass6/P1230061.jpg