Help!


We just booked our first gig in a small 100 person or so capacity bar. We play hard rock and have a fairly loud drummer. This is the hodgepodge of gear we have to work with:

Samson XM910 6 channels 2x450w @ 4ohm
Behringer PMP3000 8 channels – 2x450w @ 4ohm
Peavey XR8600 – 8 channels 2x600w @ 4ohm
Peavey PV1500 power amp
BBE Sonic Maximizer Max x2 2 channel crossover
2 Peavey SP 800 watt 2 way mains
2 250 watt 12 in passive monitors
2 mackie powered monitors
2 Peavey PR15 passive 400 watt subs


I am having a hard time figuring out what to use and how to set it up. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

My 2c:

One way to do it for vocals only:
Peavey xr8600 to peavey 2xsp800
"record out" to powered monitors
monitor out to PV1500 to passive monitors
use delay instead of reverb (room with have enough echo)

Test it all before you go to the gig.
You might want to mic the kick drum a bit because it sometimes gets lost in the room.
Keep the bass down on it though so it won't be boomy.


Sound check at the gig.
Set the vocals to the room first.
Adjust the band's sound so it doesn't overpower the vocals.
Have the drummer play to the room/vocal levels instead of just pounding away.


You can do the same thing with the Behringer PMP 3000. It has more real monitor sends.

Good luck.

Thanks Stumbo.

We were planning to mike the kick.

What about the subs? Run them off of one channel on the 1500?

And the BBE? line out/in from the Peavey or Behringer?

I don't know much about PA, but the last gig we played was a small bar, capacity 122, so about the same size as your venue. We mic'd or DI'd everything (the drummer usually uses at least 3 mics himself). We had plenty of channels and someone to run the sound, but I wonder if we needed mic or DI everything for such a small place. However, I was told we sounded good that night, so the sound guy must've known what he was doing.

bump

Bueller? Anyone?

You haven't said what your lineup is or what backline you've got, but making some general assumptions...

As you're asking, I'd assume you don't have much experience running PA, and that you don't have a sound guy: In which case keeping it simple is the best method. I always find that the more we put through the monitors and PA the worse I can hear everything - sure if it's done right, but the more you try and to, the more can go wrong.

For a gig that size, with a decent backline, you really just need vocals throught the PA and in the monitors. You can add stuff in, which will help if it's working, but it's more for you to worry about for a first gig.

Just pick your best mixer amp, run all the vocals through it. Forget the subs - you don't need them for vocals. Stumbo's sugguestions sound about right.

I'd be tempted to just work with the two active monitors. Send a different mix to each, and put one behind the drummer, and another at the front for the vocalist. If there are too many band members for you all to hear, then you'll need another monitor out front, in which case you will need the passives too.

you've got the gear to do more, but the gig doesn't need it. Given your experience you'll do best by keeping it simple.

Ian

So, this is what I have come up with. We will mike the kick and bass only into the subs.


http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s129/squireman/LiveSound.jpg

Your drawing doesn't look right to me. You're going to use the record out as a monitor send?I would not run in stereo so you can use the regular monitor output. Since the bar is small I would forget the crossover and subs unless you really know what you are doing.Maybe post this over at harmony central live sound forum where you would be dealing with soundmen instead of dumb-assed bass players:)

Are you running it by yourself from the stage? If so that diagram is too complex for your first time out. I'd recommend vocals and kick only through


Peavey XR8600 – 8 channels 2x600w @ 4ohm
bridged into
2 Peavey SP 800 watt 2 way mains
with
2 mackie powered monitors
run off of Aux 1

crank up your amps for everything else.

We are not going to use the REC out for the active monitors. Instead, The lead vocal mikes are going to connect to the active monitors directly.



http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s129/squireman/LiveSound.jpg

lol! You don't seem to like any of our suggestions!

How many hours do you have to setup, troubleshoot, and soundcheck this rig?

Who is running it? How many roadies? IME it is much more fun to show up an hour early to set up and rock my rig than it is to show up 3 hours early to hook up a giant pa.

If you absolutely insist on running all of that gear in a 100 person venue, your diagram needs some changes. Send the Highs straight back to the mixer after the xover, not via the 1500. Run both main speakers from one half of the mixer. Run the passive monitors with the other half of the mixer. Bridge the 1500 power amp into the subs.

Thanks Jon.

I am on vacation, so I have pretty much all day to set up and experiment. We are also planning to set it up at rehearsal a week or so before the show for a test drive.

If you absolutely insist on running all of that gear in a 100 person venue, your diagram needs some changes. Send the Highs straight back to the mixer after the xover, not via the 1500. Run both main speakers from one half of the mixer. Run the passive monitors with the other half of the mixer. Bridge the 1500 power amp into the subs.

This is indeed your best option. The diagram makes no sense, you can't take highs from the power amp back to the mixer before they hit the mains. You'll be wiring a powered signal into your mixer - bad news and destruction awaits.

Also, be sure your passive mains and monitors are 8 ohms, not 4 ohms, before daisy chaining them as jondog described. They likely are, but if not, you'll fry the power amps in your mixer.
Another important point to add to jondog's suggestion: You can't use the Peavey mixer, send to crossover, and then feed it back to the SAME PEAVEY mixer and use it's power amps for the mains. Your stereo/mono bus that feeds the internal power amps is already busy with your original mix and therefore you can't return the mixed post crossover high signal. Instead, start with another mixer instead of the Peavey, send to crossover, send highs to the Peavey, and use the Peavey's power amps as jondog described. Bridge the 1500 into the subs.

Done. Have fun.

Yes I agree. I was assuming the Peavey mixer had power amp 1 and 2 IN jacks that bypass the internal feed when used.

Check this site out, it might help. Setting it for a practice is for sure a good idea too. Good luck.
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/4241/Setup.html

Yes I agree. I was assuming the Peavey mixer had power amp 1 and 2 IN jacks that bypass the internal feed when used.

The manual states that the Power Amp in jacks "allows a direct path to the power amplifier". So this should send the main mix with BBE processing back to the mains and the same for the monitor mix.

The basic problem here is that the peavey mixer does not have FX send/receive connections. So it makes it kind of kludgey to run external processing.

You said a hundred person venue? Will one hundred people be there or more like 20-50. If so, in smaller situations you are really just asking for trouble micing the drums. Not really needed, especially if the drummer has a good kit and is a hard hitter. You might want to just mic the kick, but I have yet to hear snares, toms or cymbals that, "needed," to be miced in small 100 person clubs.

Go to the back of the place and have the drummer play. If you can hear the drums clearly you don't have to mic them.

With PA equipment the less open mics you can use the better.
The best case scenario would be to DI guitars and bass so that the only open mic would be the singers. This would allow for less feedback and the singers mic would be able to get a lot of headroom.

Also, do you know how to carve frequencies for the mics in a room?

I've done a lot of successful shows at 100 person size rooms where the only thing in the PA was the vocals and maybe one or two other things. The guitar players just turned their backlines up.

I agree with the simpler is better approach. I've been doing sound for many years and even with the greater experience and better equipment available to me than you've listed I always choose to NOT mic the drums or guitars and then run one amp in full range and NOT use the crossover and multiple amps when playing in small venues.

Stick with just the vocals (and maybe the kick and just possibly the snare) straight into the PA are definitely your best option.

About a dozen people have now given the same advice.

I'm not entirely sure why the OP asked for advice, when he'd already worked out what he was going to do, and is sticking to it even when EVERYONE has told him it's a bad idea.

Ian

I originally passed on this but the discussion somehow became interesting. After looking at the hook-up I agree with most everyone that this is a little...involved. Plus I don't get some of it and I know quite a bit about PA gear. What is the XLR line IN from the active monitors all about? Shouldn't that be line OUT from the mixer to drive the monitors? :confused:

JKT

Vocals only through the PA unless you are playing on a dead stage do a deaf audience. 100 is tiny so the chances that you will be crammed onstage (and your audience on the dancefloor) is great: not a great idea to make it smaller by adding unecessary mics + subs.

1) Almost everyone has +1 to the subs.
2) I am trying to integrate the BBE because of it's signal processing ability. That is where the main challenge is because of the lack of an FX loop on the Peavey mixer.

The BBE is acting as your crossover, it doesn't need to be on an FX loop, it is fed by the main outs.

About a dozen people have now given the same advice.

I'm not entirely sure why the OP asked for advice, when he'd already worked out what he was going to do, and is sticking to it even when EVERYONE has told him it's a bad idea.

Ian


+1 to that. In a hundred seater, even for heavy rock, I would keep it simple and just use the Peavey mixer for vocals (and maybe the kick drum - but only if really, really necessary) and just the 2 active monitors on stage.

In a place that small getting the vocals up over the heavy rock backline without feedback (howlround) is probably going to be the major issue and throwing more equipment at the problem than the room can handle isn't going to help.

If you keep it simple, all you need to do at your soundcheck is place the main PA speakers - it helps if you aim the speaker on the left of the stage into the far right corner of the room and vice versa, because then the reflected sound waves will be diffused a bit more than just bouncing straight back at you from the back wall, contributing to the howlround risk and generally screwing your monitor mix.

Then, just make sure that you get the gain structure of the mixer set for the mikes you are using, get a good balance on the vocals and set the tone up - set it with more top when the room is empty than you think you need - the soft bodied audience will soak up the treble frequencies. Push the master faders up until you just hear the first hint of feedback then back them off a few Db's - mark that spot, then back them off a few more Db's because it helps if you start off loud enough but with a bit of headroom. By the end of your set the audience will have become accustomed to the sound level and pushing the sound up to the marked level (still with headroom before any feedback) for the last few numbers will help your big finish.

Remember, the band can only be as loud as the vocal levels will take, miking the band in such a small venue will be futile because the mix will be screwed by the spill from the backline anyway, so use your backline for all the instruments but show enough discipline to keep the levels so that the vocals come though.

In the end it depends whether you want to look like you have all the cool gear (which the audience won't care about) or whether you sound good (which they will care about).

Less is more, anything more is only done for the same reason a dog licks it's balls

You state a capacity of 122.

You only need a vocal PA.