I'm just curious, since I've been studying jazz a lot and understand it pretty well, well I thought how about I learn from TB'ers who are in bands and write their own songs?

Any favorite scales? Modes(Melodic and Harmonic Minor modes + normal)? Chord Progressions? Favorite intervals to use to make a chord progression(In a non-functional matter).

I thought this would be a fun little, thread, and since I always wanted to make a big thread, this could be the one.

I'm not talking about improvising at all for you jazzers, just writing a tune yourself if you do.

Especially for solos and such, anyway begin!

Different strokes for different folks. Some write from a chordal approach, find or make up a set of changes and then figure out a melody to fit the changes. Others come up with a melody first and then harmonize it. Last some do a little of each.

Studying composition or songwriting mainly gives you all the rules of strong and weak chord movement, common cadences, and typical note resolutions. Many write using there non-main instrument so they don't fall into common fingering patterns. Urban myth has it Jimmy Page used to randomly detune is guitar then play it with a slide and see if he comes up with a cool melody or riff. If he did then he would record it, retune his guitar and figure out what he played. There are probably as many approaches and exercises to learning to compose as there are people who write music.

Berklee has a book called Jazz Composition that is nice if looking for a book.

I just mess around on whatever instrument until I find something I like, then I layer on beneath and on top of it and the song usually just naturally progresses from there. Sometimes they don't, though, and the song won't be going anywhere.

I start with chords, then build melodies on top of it. My favourite of the scales are the Harmonic Minor, the Locrian bb7, and the Hirojoshi.

Getting the initial inspiration is the hard part I find, once I get a 'starting block' I just imagine what the rest would sound sound like and work out what the notes and timbres I'm thinking of would be. Although I'm pretty well read regarding music theory I only use it for playing jazz or analyzing pieces, when writing I do it almost entirely by ear.

Generic/boring 'I play what I hear' post I guess, but the truth. The only difference is when trying to find the initial inspiration, for which I usually just mess around with different theory things, techniques, technologies etc. until I hear something that sets me off.

I never use or even think about scales other than when practicing, I see music as chords and connecting tones; I find it really frees me up creatively especially from an improvising standpoint.

Nearly a month old thread, but what the heck.

We use atonal vocals so our music doesn't have melodies in the traditional meaning and we don't use chords, just riffs. I just sit around playing my guitar until I get a riff (it can be an intro, a chorus, a verse), then I start working with that riff to see what might go along with it. It's a long process and it usually takes me between 1-2 months to get the song finished. Although some songs can take even a year. I'm slow. If you break down my songs you can find that I use a lot of Phrygian mode and also natural and harmonic minor. Although I have been trying intentionally to use more chromatic progressions but it just hasn't given me any results.

Nowadays I try to write a melody first and then harmonise it.

Nowadays I try to write a melody first and then harmonise it.

Pretty much the same here, or at least that's how I try to do it. It's not always the case though...

Anyway, before coming up with a melody, I like to have a theme for the lyrics, as I want the melody and lyrics to fit together as good as possible.

If you keep the notion that all music is simple and that there is one idea expressed at a time, the whole process becomes a good bit easier. Love songs and slow tempo pieces generally need a good melody, so that's the place to start. Dance music relies on rhythm, tempo and the style that comes from those elements... so that's a better place to start with dance music. If you have lyrics before hand, find a rhythm that naturally comes from saying the words. Use that rhythm to dictate the melody.

If your music sounds confusing, it probably means there are too many things trying to get your attention. Simplify. Too much repetition makes boring music.... to much new information is irratating (and therefore, eventually boring). Good music is somewhere in the middle; your job is to find that place.

All generalities are suspect... including the ones listed above. Connecting with emotions is the best bet.

If you keep the notion that all music is simple and that there is one idea expressed at a time, the whole process becomes a good bit easier. Love songs and slow tempo pieces generally need a good melody, so that's the place to start. Dance music relies on rhythm, tempo and the style that comes from those elements... so that's a better place to start with dance music. If you have lyrics before hand, find a rhythm that naturally comes from saying the words. Use that rhythm to dictate the melody.

If your music sounds confusing, it probably means there are too many things trying to get your attention. Simplify. Too much repetition makes boring music.... to much new information is irratating (and therefore, eventually boring). Good music is somewhere in the middle; your job is to find that place.

All generalities are suspect... including the ones listed above. Connecting with emotions is the best bet.
+1

It really depends on where's your going...
If I'm looking for riffs for metal bands, I usually jam around the blues\ pentatonic scale until I find something nice ( of course you can jam alone, or with your drummer, or with your whole band.(using the bass)
on the jazzier tunes, I had times where I had the melody in my head, but had times I started with the chords and then made up the melody... (on the piano)
I guess the best way is to just try over and over and after few times you'll start to develop your own method..

There's all sorts of writing techniques that I employ - I get restless and bored with my writing if I stick to one formula, genre or style for very long. Usually though I start out with a simple motif and then see how many ways I can manipulate it across chord changes. After coming up with a basic motif, I'll plan out a general contour and rough estimates for pitches for the melody, and then write a harmony to it, adjusting the melody as the harmony dictates. This has just been my recent strategy, though, it's bound to change soon.

I never use any one set formula to write songs, but the one thing all my songs have in common is that I look for things that sound good as opposed to doing the right thing according to the Great Book Of Music Theory. I know theory pretty well, but I tend to turn it off when I write. I don't write things that sound odd or strange or anything, but I always go for what sounds good over everything.

I used to come up with a chord progression or bass riff that I liked , and sing stuff over it.

After a while it sank in that that's backwards: I strive to start with the melody, usually sung, then figure it out on bass or gtr, and then I try to harmonize it.

In general I have found my favorite ideas tend to form away form any instruments...As soon as I grab an axe, my own physical habits take over and it's hard to create something I feel is compelling. I have a tendency to dismiss anything that falls into a familiar fingering pattern. If I come up with an idea without an instrument, and let it evolve a little in my head, then by the time i discover it's just a simple scale or riff, i already am certain i like it.

I use just about everything available.

Sometimes a riff or lick will pop up.
Sometimes I'll be working on chord progressions and come up with something.
Working on scales and modes, even intervals and making up excersices will lead to something.
Sometimes I'm walking down the street and a melody or a bass line will pop into my head. I try and remember the intervals.
Sometimes the lyrics come first.
I'll think up or hear a cool rhythm pattern and incorporate that.
Or a musical phrase or section in a song will catch my fancy and I'll change it and steal it.

I like collaborating with others and bouncing ideas back and forth. That's fun!

I come from a goa trance music background (ie: psychedelic dance music usually on an arabic scale). Can be very groovy stuff. I'll come up with some melodic lead on my bass, play it to a click track at the desired tempo. Then I record, add electronic synths and a synth bassline, percs, the whole nine yards. Alot of the time, my bass is used as a mid instrument.

As for scales, favourites for electronic music are the Arabic, Phrygian, and Enigmatic.

I am currently trying to craft a hook first - a strong, memorable and repeatable melody and (if words are appropriate) words that fit the same criteria.

In the past I've come up with lyrics first, then worked music into them - or come up with some nice changes and crafted the rest of the song parts to fit - but most of those songs ended up being rather uneventful. They followed "acceptable" form and could be considered "songs" insofar as all the puzzle pieces fit together well enough. But the end result was always less than memorable.

So now I am hell-bent to find a hook first. I figure building a strong hook (head/melody) will make creating the rest of the tune much easier.

I think... I hope...

Just for discussion and IMO a hook can be anything.

A lyric, a brief melodic line (Jeff Beck is a master at these), an odd timed rhythmic change, a surprising chord change that doesn't lead where one's ear think it will.

A hook, to me, is a song's signature. The quirky or maybe unexpected element that makes the song memorable or stand out in the listener's mind.

But I agree that first coming up with a strong, imaginative idea is an ideal place to start! Makes building the rest of the song way easier if you're excited about the original idea. Gives an idea a cohesive nucleus to branch out from.

Filling notebooks with a lot of little random ideas (lyric phrases, expressions, musical motifs) gives you some resources you can use later if you get stuck for directions. "Oh yeah, I can use that little thing I came up with a couple of months ago". I have scraps of paper everywhere with bass lines and lyrics written out. The thing is to always be putting ideas down. A lot of ppl use tape recorders.

I'm also a big fan of serendipity. Letting stuff accidentally happen while your creating and not considering something you didn't mean to do a mistake. You don't always have to have a conscious chokehold on the creative process - I consider these freebies!

Just for discussion and IMO a hook can be anything.

A lyric, a brief melodic line (Jeff Beck is a master at these), an odd timed rhythmic change, a surprising chord change that doesn't lead where one's ear think it will.

A hook, to me, is a song's signature. The quirky or maybe unexpected element that makes the song memorable or stand out in the listener's mind.

But I agree that first coming up with a strong, imaginative idea is an ideal place to start! Makes building the rest of the song way easier if you're excited about the original idea. Gives an idea a cohesive nucleus to branch out from.

Filling notebooks with a lot of little random ideas (lyric phrases, expressions, musical motifs) gives you some resources you can use later if you get stuck for directions. "Oh yeah, I can use that little thing I came up with a couple of months ago". I have scraps of paper everywhere with bass lines and lyrics written out. The thing is to always be putting ideas down. A lot of ppl use tape recorders.

I'm also a big fan of serendipity. Letting stuff accidentally happen while your creating and not considering something you didn't mean to do a mistake. You don't always have to have a conscious chokehold on the creative process - I consider these freebies!

Yes on all points. I've been religiously carrying a small notepad in my back pocket for the last few months for that very purpose - to jot down ideas that catch my mind. The idea being that when I get together with my group of collaborators, I can whip it out and have lots of fodder for exploration.

On serendipity, I've found that starting with a generally sound, good idea make gems from serendipity that much more possible. On the flip-side - counting on serendipity tends to yield much less pleasing results. When I have a group together, I always try to start from some solid ground (recording everything, of course) and exploring that idea thoroughly. Inevitably, serendipity toss a great thing on the table that you could have never, in a million years, contrived.

Ultimately, the hook is the heart. Whether it's a cute, ear-catching rhythmic pattern or an incredibly articulate lyric, if you have a good hook the rest is almost effortless.

It all depends on what I am writing for. In school when they have you follow a specific form, I tended to map out how the form went first, then figured out the progression and last, I would voice it. But I mostly did that to save work in trying to make what I came up with follow the set rules I was given.

Typically for myself, I generally write down a bunch of motifs in a manuscript notebook, and I recall them later while I'm trying to put something together. I typically figure out the progression first still, but the form of the piece becomes something more as an afterthought.

I make my matrix and start picking tone rows. Heh, I'm on a bit of a serialist kick.

I get out the Bass Grimoire and pick a scale of the day, then get it stuck in my head until a cool riff comes out. I'm a riff junkie when it comes to writing. Writing words is a different story. Unless I have a good idea, I turn on the TV and write a song about the first phrase I hear.

I haven't wirtten much, due to the fact that I don't know much theory. All of my stuff is in my head right now. The sounds that I can picture sound pretty crunchy together, but I listen to a lot of prog rock for inspiration, so that makes sense.

For lyrics, I typically just write music with a set syllable, and later come back and put words in. I don't think many listeners actually listen to the words (more specifically the meaning) anyways.

For me since my knowledge of chords and progressions is very limited I usualy start with a key signature, change a note or two if I don't like the way it sounds with the other ones. (for the most part I usually change half-steps since I don't try to write that much metal stuff) Then I end up with a odd key signature and start writing riffs from that. I'm hoping once I understand chord progressions and that whole buisness my music will at least flow better.

For lyrics, I typically just write music with a set syllable, and later come back and put words in. I don't think many listeners actually listen to the words (more specifically the meaning) anyways.

I agree that in most popular music the actual substance of the words is less important to the overall appeal of the song as is their shape, color and texture.

But I also believe that of you are fortunate enough to craft a hook that captures the ear, the substance of the words steps up a bit in importance.

[Edit: removed tons of extra stuff...]

I guess all that lengthy blah, blah, blah is trying to say "start simple and work hard to keep it that way". In my opinion, it's far easier to write an overly complicated piece (Rush, Yes, Tool etc...) than it is to write a simple, hooky piece (R.E.M., The Cure, The Beatles, etc...) - maybe not easier to play, but easier to fill the air with tricky riffs and licks than to put a simple, but very memorable hook out there.

I am recording improvisations, and trying to play as fast as i can, with mind free as possible. than listen to it to seek "maybe something sweet overhere". Usually it is a catch tune to start, which stars my inspiration.

Favorite scales of this Owl: Whole tone, melodic and harmonic minor,

One favorite soloing trick: Take a given key like A for example, some very interesting tensions can be bought forth by playing in the key a whole step above (B in this case).

Writing is a wildly varied process for me, sometimes an idea will come from a chord sequence, other times a melody will come first and then harmony and chords will gravitate around that, sometimes a rhythmic pattern/drumbeat will get it started, and even ideas have come from unlikely sources like birds :D, mechanical and natural sounds that aren't even musical as such or even a painting (impressionist tend to get my attention the most).

I usually write pop/rock songs, and have a very strong sensibility for pop structures. But I have always tended to be on the progressive end of that spectrum; I use jazzier chords than most of the "rock guys" I know, love to mess with odd meters, flirt w/ atonality, etc. But I've got material I've written ranging from 2 minute pop ditties to 15 minute prog-rock epics to technical solo bass type pieces (mostly from when I was a younger cat with "something to prove").

Clearly I'm the only player here who has written him or herself a 7 minute bass wankfest.... :hiding:

Anywho, ideally I can start with a melody, or a fragment thereof, or at least a lyric idea, and run with it from there. As I (hopefully) mature as a writer, that's how I'd like to begin every piece I write; I've come to believe the melody to be, under almost any circumstances, the most critical element of most "popular music".

That said, I find that I have very frequently relied on farting around with stock or semi-stock chord structures to start with. Hell, how many rock songs are I-IV-V? I try not to live in that box, but sometimes rock'n'roll compels you....

I've also discovered a great love for improvising with a band and seeing what comes out. You can treat a jam as a sketchpad and develop ideas from the jam into one or more actual songs. Or you can just consider the jam itself a song that can never be repeated. ;)

I was in a band that released a well-received CD of material created in the latter vein back in 2003. We recorded probably ~10-20 hrs of jams total. I mixed them all as played, then our drummer did a surgical editing job to get rid of the stuff that just didn't work, to create some artificial "transitions", etc. It got some pretty amazing reviews, to my surprise.

I guess I ultimately agree with the previous poster who mentioned that the initial inspiration is the trick. Once I've got a musical bit in mind, things will eventually fall into place for a song.